Forward or Backward thinking.

[JAK]

Recently I've started a new diet. One thing a little different is I am basing my calories on how active I've been since my last meal, rather than how active I am planning on being before my next meal. Does it help? Not really, except that it's making pay attention a little more.

Anyhow, here is a question...

I find it harder to go from one meal to the next without eating if I am less active. Why is that?
Say in a typical day I am burning 100 kcal per hour, why am I hungry after 4 hours?

On the trail I can go 6 hours or more without eating, burning perhaps 400 kcal per hour. What's up with that?

[JAK]

I read recently that up until 500 years ago most europeans only ate two meals a day, with breakfast being the smallest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_m...ropean_cuisine

In most parts of Europe two meals per day were eaten, one in the early morning to noon and one in the late afternoon later at night. The exact times varied both by period and region. In Spain and in parts of Italy such as Genoa and Venice the early meal was the lighter one while supper was heavier. In the rest of Europe, the first meal of the day was the more substantial. Throughout the period, there was a gradual shift of mealtimes. The first meal, then called dinner in English, moved from before noon to around 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon by the 17th century. By the end of the 18th century, it could be held as late as 5:00 or 6:00. This necessitated a midday meal, luncheon, later shortened to lunch, which was established by the late 18th century. Breakfast[3] does not receive much attention in any sources. Breakfast, when it began to be fashionable, was usually just a coffee, tea or chocolate, and did not become a more substantial meal in many parts of Europe until the 19th century. In the south, where supper was the largest meal, there was less need for breakfast, and it therefore remained unimportant, something that can still be seen today in the traditionally light breakfasts of southern Europe, which usually consists of coffee or tea with bread or pastry. There is no doubt that working people since medieval times ate some sort of morning meal , but it is unclear exactly at what time and what it consisted of. The three-meal-regimen so common today did not become a standard until well into the modern era.

As in the Middle Ages, breakfast in the sense of an early morning meal, is largely absent from the sources. It's unclear if this meant it was universally avoided or that it simply was not fashionable enough to be mentioned, as most sources were written by, for and about the upper class.

[JAK]

So what triggers hunger? How do you know it is real hunger? When should you eat? When your stomach is empty? When your blood sugar is low? Time of Day? Should you eat less often when burning only 2400 kcal per day at home vs 6000 kcal per day on the trail, or more often? If you want to be burning body fat, how much should you deplete and restore your glycogen levels? If you burn 1200 kcal over a 3 hour hike, do you need to eat right away? How much? What kind of food?

1. How low should you allow your glycogen stores to drop?
2. When dieting and exercising, do you need to fully refuel?
3. Is it different on the trail vs at home?

[burger]

Many studies have shown that, in terms of weight gain/loss, the only thing that matters is calories per day. It doesn't matter when you eat them, what form they're in (fats/carbs/protein), etc. Weight gain = calories in (eaten) - calories out (burned).

So, my advice is to not sweat it. Eat the right amount per day and your body will sort it out.

[JAK]

I think there is alot to that. The body will sort things out. But in theory, when dieting and exercising at the same time, how much should we let glycogen levels deplete, and how fully should we top them up? It would be cool if there was a way of knowing your current glygogen level, like 0 to 500g. If you had such an instrument, how low would you let it go between meals, or during a long run or hike? Also, if you were to let it fluxuate between say, 300g and 450g when dieting and exercising, does that mean you would have 150g of carbs, 50g protien, and 25g fat when refueling, for a meal of 1050 kcal or so, or is it better to spread the glycogen restoring over 2 or 3 meals? What is the biggest that any given meal should be?

[JAK]

Man I'm really struggling with my diet and exercise these days. I either overeat, or don't have the energy to exercise, or both. I think I am going to try one meal a day, plus something extra if I exercise, but only if I exercise. When hiking I think I will stick to my usual 2 meals a day plan, as I have less of a problem when I am hiking. Maybe I just need to get out for a hike and get myself back to normal.

[Juice]

Man I'm really struggling with my diet and exercise these days. I either overeat, or don't have the energy to exercise, or both. I think I am going to try one meal a day, plus something extra if I exercise, but only if I exercise. When hiking I think I will stick to my usual 2 meals a day plan, as I have less of a problem when I am hiking. Maybe I just need to get out for a hike and get myself back to normal.

I've definitely struggled with this off and on. I've currently gone back to my practice of simply not eating after 8pm. If I know I can't eat later (which usually translates to overeating), I seem to remember to eat regular reasonable meals throughout the day. I tend to drink a lot of herbal tea at night and generally don't have a problem with hunger as long as I don't stay up after 1am. Or at least if I'm up later I try to read in bed and I find I'm not hungry when I'm laying down. Good luck finding whatever works best for you.

[burger]

As for glycogen, I'm a runner, and from what I understand you don't need to worry about depleting your glycogen until you've burned roughly 2000 calories. So unless you're exercising like crazy or starving yourself, your glycogen level is probably fine.

[Storm]

I am not going to argue the pros and cons of counting calories or when and how much we should be eating. I'm going to just tell you that I tried a new approach and have dropped 21 pounds so far in a little over two months and have not been hungry and have not felt tired or unable to hike.

I happened to see Dr. Joel Fuhrman do an infomercial on PBS and it sounded pretty interesting. I purchased his book "Eat To Live" and read it cover to cover. I didn't do the plan quite as strict as I could have but then I wasn't morbidly overweight and just wan't to lose a few pounds and eat a little healthier. So far it has worked well for me. I am now within a few pounds of my weight when I came out of boot camp. YMMV

Only downside I can see to the plan is that it would be very hard to do on the trail. To drop a few pounds and get healthier for an upcoming hike is my goal and so far it is working.

[colonel r]

Hunger is triggered by insulin levels in the blood stream. Insulin levels also control the conversion and storage of fat in the body. Control insulin levels and you will control the amount of fat stored and consequently your weight. How do you control the insulin? ... control your carbohydrate intake. This will also control hunger and cravings. The energy in = energy out formula is incorrect. This is why low cal diets are seldom effective and almost never permanent.

Limit your carb intake to about 60 grams per day, less if you want to loose faster. Eat all the protein and fat you want. Eventually you will self limit your calories.

I am not trying to start an argument here but know from experience and education that this works. I'll answer any positive comments and provide references but will not argue.
Col R

[Storm]

Not to argue either Colonel but would you believe me if I told you Brocoli has more protein than steak?
It's true on a calorie basis. 100 calories worth of brocoli has more protein than 100 calories worth of steak. Nice thing is that you can eat almost a pound of brocoli and only 1 oz of steak. Just saying.

[colonel r]

Don't consider that an argument. The point is you do not have to count calories, just carbs. Some of the veggies that are low carb (and worth eating to my taste) are green beans and broccoli.

A diet without veggies seems an anathema. However, there are whole cultures that have never eaten vegetables and are healthy and long lived. The Alaskan Inuit come to mind.

Col R

Once you get into the rhythm of this thing then there are ways to tweak the kind, type, and ratios of protein and fat. However in the beginning it does not matter.

[scope]

Good responses, but to really answer the question, or at least make a hypothesis, I'd guess that the body is predisposed to not send eating signals (hunger pangs) until the body is at rest, OR until which time that a certain amount of time has passed and certain triggers are reached (i.e. glycogen, insulin levels). My guess is that the body wants to be at rest so that blood flow can be properly allocated to those organs involved in the process of eating and digesting. My guess is that its a complex equation based on the intensity of the activity, certain levels of whatever in the body acting as triggers, and your own DNA that determines how your body reacts to each.

[Tenderheart]

I find it harder to go from one meal to the next without eating if I am less active. Why is that?
Say in a typical day I am burning 100 kcal per hour, why am I hungry after 4 hours?

On the trail I can go 6 hours or more without eating, burning perhaps 400 kcal per hour. What's up with that?

In simple terms, exercise reduces your appetite. I am a former marathoner and when I would do long training runs to prepare, I would have to make myself eat after I finished. Now, I run six miles every morning and still have no appetite when I return. Go figure. I have read the physiology, but the bottom line is: exercise reduces appetite. Those smarter than I say that many small meals per day will elevate metabolism. Get that going for you too. Isn't it funny how weight can come on overnight but take months to go away? Good luck!!

[Pedaling Fool]

Man I'm really struggling with my diet and exercise these days. I either overeat, or don't have the energy to exercise, or both. I think I am going to try one meal a day, plus something extra if I exercise, but only if I exercise. When hiking I think I will stick to my usual 2 meals a day plan, as I have less of a problem when I am hiking. Maybe I just need to get out for a hike and get myself back to normal.

JAK, judging by you other posts I believe you're overthinking WRT the issue of diet. BTW, what do you do for exercise? For example, do you just do one or two things or do you do a multitude of different things?


When I do only a few things for an extended period I start feeling worn down and lethargic, at this time if I skip all that and do something completely different, that usually re-energizes me. Or say, I've been lifting heavy weights for a long time, I'll switch and do lighter weights at higher reps and that gets me a feeling of renewal.


I'm not one of those people that can just do one exercise over and over and.....

[JAK]

Thanks for all the comments and support. Great stuff. Cheered me up.
I'll have a light breakfast and try to get out for a long walk tomorrow. Then see.

I think what I might try and do now is not plan any meals, but when I do eat I will estimate how much calories I have burned since the last meal or snack, and eat some fraction of that, like 50-75. Keeping a special eye on carbs. I'm not sure I will go super low on carbs, but I'll try and keep them lower than 30% of calories burned. So I'll not think too far ahead and just go one meal to the next.

So I last ate around 9pm. Yeah, it was junk. Anyhow, assuming I make it to morning without more snacking, that'll be about 6 x 60 + 6 x 100 = 960. I'll try a 500 kcal breakfast, low in carbs. Maybe I'll get a short run in before breakfast and make it 600 kcal. Then I'll see about that walk. Thanks again.

[redheadedhiker674]

If you eat smaller meals, then your metabolism speeds up and you have to eat more frequently. Like if you were to do a 6 meal per day diet. Also, you want your breakfast to be high in carbs, just make sure they're not sugary refined carbs like white bread refined pasta. Carbs=energy. Carbs aren't bad. Eat some whole wheat toast, grape nuts, or something like that. It'll give your metabolism a good kick start and lots of energy for the day!

[JAK]

I think if you are eating carbs you need to spread them over many meals, and be even more careful not to take in more carbs than you have burned. I agree that carbs are energy, but so is fat. I think of carbs as the kindling, and the fat as the primary fuel. I know I have become somewhat addicted to carbs, even slow carbs like oatmeal.

My current thinking is that my body is consuming 10% protien, 70% carbs, 20% fat, because I have become overdependant on carbs and have to keep topping them up, and often over do it. I would like my body to get back to "normal" which to me means 10% protien, 30% carbs, 60% fat. Then some of that fat can some from body fat. So I'll try not to consume more than 30% of calories burned as carbs, and never too much at once. So breakfast might be 20-30% protien, 40-60% carbs, and 20-30% fat, but will only be 50-75% of the cakories I have burned.

I am going to try and stop thinking of the food I eat being for the work I haven't done yet, and think of it more as only being for whatever work I have recently done since the previous meal. I think this makes more sense, even though it isn't actually true. The idea is that we have energy stores, fat and glycogen, and if we want to burn some of those fat reserves, then we have to stop trying to keep our glycogen reserves topped up, and overfilling, too much of the time.

[Rasty]

JAK - I truely believe the one big meal and one small meal may be the best. You are correct about two (or less) meals per day worked for most of human history. Some will argue that better nutrition has made us taller, but most also got wider. If you need 2000 calories per day and want to loose weight then only give yourself 1800. 200 calories / 9 calories per gram of fat = 22 grams per day. This about 5 ounces per week. Not alot but realistic. Also add fiberous vegetables. Don't try to eat like a Eskimo, they live in an extreme climate that their diet fits.

[daddytwosticks]

JAK...this problem can be solved with one GOOD cleanse....