Staying warm with a change to sleep system

[Buffalo Skipper]

For this weekend's trip I am making a change to my sleep system. I have been a hammock camper for the past 18 months, but will be hiking at Torreya State Park (Florida state park system prohibits hammocks or anything tied to trees). So, I am using my old tent, a MH Viperine 2, wth only the footprint, poles and fly (no inner tent); at just over 2 lbs, it is not a horrible option. For a pad, I have a combination of cut down Z-rest pad (torso) and thinner Gossomer 1/4" foam (legs) with an overstuffed 20° Hammock Gear Burrow. My concern is that the fly only comes to within 1-2" of the ground, so I will be getting plenty of ventilation, and with the cut pad and top quilt, I am concerned that I may get too much vent and not enough heat retention. Temps are to be in the mid-low 30s.

The shelter is a definate wedge, so my obvious option is to point into the wind and build a leaf/pinestraw barrier at the foot end and around the sides to act as a wind break. But not having used pads in so long and never having used the topquilt on the ground, I am curious as to how it may perform.

Any comments or observations, based on your experiences?

Posting here, it goes without saying that I am trying to make this a lighweight experience. I am currently sitting at about 13 lbs base. Not excessively light, but it is in the range I am shooting for.

[Tinker]

I don't sleep on the ground well at all (side sleeper with bony hips), and wouldn't feel comfortable with that pad setup unless I knew that I could pad the ground under my tent (with vegetation) or pitch it in sand, where I could make a depression for my hips.
Minimum, for me, is my old 1-1/2" thick Thermarest, especially if I'm forced to tent on a platform or sleep in a shelter (would only do second if weather was a concern).

Even in bad weather I'd rather..................see avatar.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Tinker, I would do whatever to be in the hammock. However, this is a boy scout trek, and as much as I know I could stealth, I want to set the example to the boys that rules are to be followed, regardless of whether we agree with them or not (and I do not agree with the Florida State Parks regulations). However, I don't want to sideline this thread with that discussion.

I do sometimes sleep on my side in the hammock, but when on the ground, I am generally on my back. I do have a 15" square cut blue foampad I can use on/around my hips/butt to supplement if needed. Hardness of ground nonwithstanding, I am more curious as to temperature comfort, and if the top quilt will give me sufficient coverage while on the ground. Generally even in the 30s, I sleep in a short sleeve shirt and undershort. Only below 30° do I add a long sleeve layer (at least in the hammock).

[Tinker]

What are the projected low temps?

I'm not familiar with your top quilt, but if it's designed for a hammock it might be too narrow to provide good insulation on the ground. Have you tried it out in the yard yet?

[Buffalo Skipper]

It is this quilt, long with 1 oz of overstuff, or roughly good to 15°.
http://www.hammockgear.com/cart/inde...&products_id=2


Looks like the forecast is dropping every day. Monday the low Saturday was for 41°; this morning it shows Saturday down to roughly 30° Two different services have the forecast at 31° and 29°). For the past 2 weeks the lows have been in the 40s to 60s, so I the ground won't be too cold. However with the current forecast, that makes me rethink what I may wear.

Things that make you go "hummmm...."

[Gray Blazer]

Are you guys having a base camp at the youth site or are you going to some of the remoter camps?

[Buffalo Skipper]

One group is doing the main loop (8ish miles Saturday/Sunday). The advanced group (made up of mainly scouts who are going to Philmont in August) is doing both loops (16+ miles with connectors). I am with the advanced group. We will spend both Friday and Saturday at remote dry camps. Are you familiar with the area?

[hikergurl]

Hi Skipper,

Just did that park in November. Easy to moderate (but barely), so definitely doable to do with scouts over two days. The highest point has a bench that overlooks a bunch of undergrowth:/ If you're at the Rock Bluff site as a base camp, know that you're just barely above the river...great views! but horrible condensation unless the wind is blowing. I'm usually a hanger as well but found mostly flat sites at Rock Bluff and very flat sites at Rock Creek. Didn't check out the Torreya Challenge site but it's supposed to be the same as Rock Creek. There's creeks and such throughout the River Loop Trail (the main trail), and when we were there at the time, the Torreya Challenge only had a few decent streams for water, I don't know what it would be now. Water pumps are at the main trail head and the campground. The Challenge is even 'easier' than the main trail, but it is the most recent trail, established in the past several years. The main trail is mostly blazed pretty well except near the Gregory house where some of the blazes, signs, and arrows are a bit confusing. There is a much nicer topo map available of all the trails but you would have to call the park and ask for it since it is not advertised on their website. If I remember correctly, almost all the sites are sheltered via tress from horrible wind so your biggest concern would be moisture in the air from the river. Otherwise, I think your setup will be fine unless you're a particular cold sleeper. I'm sure I'll think of more stuff later, but feel free to pm me if you have any questions.

[hikergurl]

Hi Skipper,<br><br>Just did that park in November.&nbsp; Easy to moderate
(but barely), so definitely doable to do with scouts over two days.&nbsp; The
highest point has a bench that overlooks a bunch of undergrowth:/ If
you're at the Rock Bluff site as a base camp, know that you're just
barely above the river...great views! but horrible condensation unless
the wind is blowing.&nbsp; I'm usually a hanger as well but found mostly flat
sites at Rock Bluff and very flat sites at Rock Creek.&nbsp; Didn't check
out the Torreya Challenge site but it's supposed to be the same as Rock
Creek.&nbsp; There's creeks and such throughout the River Loop Trail (the
main trail), and when we were there at the time, the Torreya Challenge
only had a few decent streams for water, I don't know what it would be
now.&nbsp; Water pumps are at the main trail head and the campground.&nbsp; The Challenge is even
'easier' than the main trail, but it is the most recent trail,
established in the past several years.&nbsp; The main trail is mostly blazed
pretty well except near the Gregory house where some of the blazes,
signs, and arrows are a bit confusing.&nbsp; There is a much nicer topo map available of
all the trails but you would have to call the park and ask for it since
it is not advertised on their website.&nbsp; If I remember correctly, almost
all the sites are sheltered via tress from horrible wind so your
biggest concern would be moisture in the air from the river.&nbsp; Otherwise,
I think your setup will be fine unless you're a particular cold
sleeper.&nbsp; I'm sure I'll think of more stuff later, but feel free to pm
me if you have any questions.

Oh yeah, the critters at night are brave, dern coons (or something but the shadows looked like coons) were pests.

[Ewker]

Buffalo Skipper,

why not use a insulated pad? I have a Big Agnes rectangular pad that has comfort range down to 15° and is 2.5" thick

http://www.rei.com/product/763953/bi...d-air-core-pad

[Buffalo Skipper]

hikergurl, We were on the trail 3 years ago. We didn't even finish the main loop, due to flooding conditons (the trail was underwater both just above Rock Bluff and also behind the Gregory House). That time we camped at the youth camp (by the picnic area) on Friday and at Rock Bluff on Saturday. We were able to negotiate around the high water by Rock Bluff, but bailed out on a connector trail before getting around to the Connector. We never made it to the Challenge loop.

Our intermediate group will be repeating that plan (without the high water) going clockwise, while our advanced group will be doing both loops as a figure 8 beginning the main loop counterclockwise, staying Friday at Rock Creek, and at the Challenge camp on Saturday. Here is the topo map we are using:
TorreyaTrails.JPG

Ewker, since I have been so committed to hammocking and lighweight camping, I have not invested in a lightweight inflatable pad. I have an older (6 year old) Thermarest "Backpacker." But at 1" and 31.5 oz it is almost as heavy as my tent. I simply can't bring myself to pack that. I am right now at just under 13.5 lbs base. I only carry 1 liter of water normally and with just under 2 lbs of food, that puts me just a hair over 17 lbs.

But I am digressing (I am good at that . My real concern is if the pads I have and an overstuffed Hammock Gear 20° top quilt will keep me warm enough at a few degrees under freezing.

[Ewker]

you could get the 20"x66" pad and use your pack under your legs. The weight on that size pad is 22 ounces. Yeah it is heavier than the thin mats you are using but the comfort is a lot greater. Plus you can use this pad in your hammock if you had to go to the ground

[beakerman]

What you will likely find is that yoru top layer is more than adequate since thsi seems to be what you would use in your hammock anyway. i don't know your set up but I'd bet a bag of gorp that you have more ventilation in your hammock than you have in that tent...

Given that, your problem, as you might have already guessed, is probably going to be the bottom. During the cooler times of year you loose more heat to the ground than you do through the top of your bag. I find two walmart blue foam pads taped together get me through most any weather I have encountered. YMMV

[Tinker]

I have one of these: http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-re...e-seat/product

Placed under hips or small of back, it helps when sleeping on ccf pads (also makes a great "sit" pad ).

[hikergurl]

Ah yes, we were particularly lucky in that the rain didn't come until after we finished the hike (on our way out of the park as a matter of fact), I can only imagine the challenges of a flooded trail that's already at the level of a river. Seems to me the group starting the challenge loop first might have a dryer experience than the main loop group. Even we had a few muddy spots and it hadn't rained for at least a week prior to us starting. I think if you were to bring your z-rest, your gg pad (which I wasn't sure if you meant to use it as two pieces next to each other or if the gg pad was a full length that covered your legs and torso and the z-rest was another layer under your torso), and your 15" square pad, you should be okay. Another el cheapo way to add a bit of warmth if you don't mind the crunchiness is a windshield reflector pad or a reflective emergency blanket of some sort.

[Wags]

pads will be fine, so will the tent. you are right on using pinestraw and leaves to create a windblock. the burrow concerns me though. i think you'll definitely get some drafts with it. my buddy has one and it's pretty slim once you get it out of the hammock. but if you don't move around a lot i think you'll be ok. personally, i'd at least bring a down jacket and wear it to bed. that way when a draft sneaks in, you don't get chilled right to the bone.

can you make "wings" out of a piece of fleece for the quilt? any sort of fabric to break the wind? calendared ripstop even? an old cotton sheet?

[Gray Blazer]

You guys are goona have a good time. The lows will be in the 20's only getting in the 50's on Sunday. Good chance to test your sleep system. Have fun.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Looks like the forecast is dropping every day. Monday the low Saturday was for 41°; this morning it shows Saturday down to roughly 30° (two different services have the forecast at 31° and 29°). ...Things that make you go "hummmm...."

Againg this morning the Saturday forecast has dropped. Weather.com and Accuweather (referenced respectively in the above quote) now predict Saturday's lows to be 28° and 26°. Got the OK from the park for the advanced group to hike in to camp (about a mile) after dark. Night hikes are great, and it with lows in the mid 40s it should be fine, so long as the rain holds off.

I am toying with taking a thermal underwear set. For top and bottoms, that will add almost a pound but may help with drafts on Saturday night. Overall, it should be a great weekend, with sun but wind tomorrow.

[Gray Blazer]

I would definitely take my thermal unnerware.

[skinewmexico]

Easy answer would be to take a UL bivy to sleep in. And I'm always amazed at the number of people who say they are bony side sleepers, but have never tried a BAIAC, Neoair, or Exped Symat7 UL.