Caloric Density spreadsheet.

[swjohnsey]

I put fat (in the form of squeeze margarine) into just about everything I cook except coffee. It has about the same calorie density as canola oil or any other vegetable oil for that matter.

[Drybones]

So what is the list for then, to get you to drink canola oil ???

The list d.a. is only to show values for these items...do what you want with them.

[Bronk]

I eat littlle to no junk food when I hike.

I don't get much of my calories from fat--it's mostly complex carbs. In the cold/winter I add some fat

I've done enough miles that I planned 7,000-8,000 calorie/day. So I carry 2-3 extra ounces a day to eat food that makes me feel good. big deal.

trying to hike off junk food is, for most people, an awful idea. You'll do 15-20 miles/day, feel like ****, and think that's all you can do when you can probably double that by eating right. You're asking a lot of your body on the trail; take care of it

I'm confused...yo usay you don't eat junk food when you hike but you want to compile a list of Little Debbie snacks?

[Rocketman]

You can find useful information at several places, or at least when I looked I did. I found a file "Calories per oz 7500 plus foods.pdf" and also an excel .XLS version of it. I still have the files, but don't have the URL from which they were obtained. Actually, these files are too large to be all that useful anyway. Some others are below.

There is an excellent set of Calories per ounce information in the book "Travel Light, Eat Heavy on the Appalachian Trail" by Bill McCartny at Amazon.com. It covers all of the main ingredients used in his book for his "grocery store" resupply style of backpacking.

http://www.amazon.com/Travel-Light-A...1215273&sr=8-1


http://download.cnet.com/Nutrition-F...-10773427.html



http://fizisist.web.cern.ch/fizisist...ouncechart.doc



http://alsworldwide.org/pdfs/caloric_chart.pdf

[Rocketman]

The original nutritional data for the 7500 Plus foods is at

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=18879

SR22 - Download Files

All files are compressed using PKZip, right click here to download pkzip Documentation for the database is available either in the main SR22 directory as a PDF file or in the download files listed here. The documentation is given as a PDF file. PDF files can be read using the Acrobat reader which is available free. To install a PDF viewer in your web browser read, "Steps to Downloading the Free Acrobat Reader" Full version ASCII (6.5Mb) - This file contains the SR22 data in ASCII, delimited files. These tables are organized in a relational format, and are best used with a relational database management system (RDBMS), which will allow you to form your own queries of the database and generate custom reports. ACCESS (17.2Mb) - This file contains the SR22 data imported into a Microsoft Access database. It includes relationships between files and a few sample queries and reports. You need Microsoft Access 2003 or later to use this file. Abbreviated - This file contains data for all food items, but not all nutrient values--starch, fluoride, betaine, vitamin D2 and D3, added vitamin E, added vitamin B12, alcohol, caffeine, theobromine, phytosterols, individual amino acids, individual fatty acids, or individual sugars are not included. ASCII (0.7Mb) - delimited file suitable for importing into many programs. Excel (3.16Mb) - for use with Microsoft Excel, but can also be used by many other spreadsheet programs. Update Files - Contains updates for those users who have loaded Release 22 into their own computers and wish to do their own updates. ASCII (0.9Mb) - delimited file suitable for import into many programs

[JAK]

Awesome. Thanks Rocketman.

She packed my bags last night pre-flight
Zero hour nine a.m.
And I'm gonna be high as a kite by then
I miss the earth so much I miss my wife
It's lonely out in space
On such a timeless flight

And I think it's gonna be a long long time
Till touch down brings me round again to find
I'm not the man they think I am at home
Oh no no no I'm a rocket man
Rocket man burning out his fuse up here alone

Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids
In fact it's cold as hell
And there's no one there to raise them if you did
And all this science I don't understand
It's just my job five days a week
A rocket man, a rocket man

[SGT Rock]

A good read for figuring out ratios for fat, protein, and carbs for hiking including when is the best time for carbs and when is the best for fats: http://thru-hiker.com/articles/trail_foods.php and http://thru-hiker.com/articles/pack_light_eat_right.php

[ScottP]

I'm confused...yo usay you don't eat junk food when you hike but you want to compile a list of Little Debbie snacks?

ScottP and ScottS. Different people

And yes, I carry lots of weight in food when I do big miles. I'm not saying that I eat a no-fat diet, but in hot weather it's low-fat compared to other hikers, and extremely low in simple-carb foods (except for dried fruits, which don't really count as simple carbs for slightly complicated reasons). And it makes a huge difference in the way I feel.

Your body would much rather run off carbs than fat if given the chance. Not that you don't need fat--you do. But you don't need the bulk of your calories from it (except in winter maybe, but that's a different story--the colder the weather the more fat I add in)

[garlic08]

...yes, I carry lots of weight in food when I do big miles. I'm not saying that I eat a no-fat diet, but in hot weather it's low-fat compared to other hikers, and extremely low in simple-carb foods (except for dried fruits, which don't really count as simple carbs for slightly complicated reasons). And it makes a huge difference in the way I feel.

Your body would much rather run off carbs than fat if given the chance. Not that you don't need fat--you do. But you don't need the bulk of your calories from it (except in winter maybe, but that's a different story--the colder the weather the more fat I add in)

This makes sense based on some experiences I've had, eating too much fat midday on summer hikes. I feel lethargic afterwards. But it was so hard to resist that Cabot cheese in Vermont and NH.

[ScottS]

Cool list, SD. I'll be looking into different brands of peanut butter and different nuts/peanuts soon.
I wish olive oil came in 4oz servings.

Rocketman, I've found a lot of discrepancies with lists from online. Even such simple things as the pre-packaged foods I'm doing there have been differences in reported numbers. That's why I'm getting my information at my grocery store on my own.

Bronk, yeah, different people. I eagerly eat a couple desserts every day when I'm out. I normally do a reupply every four days and will knock out a 8-10pack of Little Debbies, candy bars or "desserty" Pop Tarts in that span.

I added a few more categories, including the weight of different one liter bottles, if anyone is interested.

[Rocketman]

ScottS

It is the name of the game to find discrepancies with lists online. Food product manufacturers will change the ingredients from time to time, for example. When it comes to natural foods, some ribeye steaks are much fatter than other ribeye steaks, depending upon how much grain the cow is fed in the feedlot .... or not all apples are really perfectly identical either. Surely, you remember those extra sweet, and extra sugary apples with different calorie counts, or a rather dry apple with less juice and sugar.

You can fill out the whole sheet with available data, and keep the font color of it a very blackish red. Then when you find the data from the actual food labels, you can put that in instead and use a black default font.

I suspect that after 200 food labels, put in by hand, you might decide that the "discrepancies" aren't all that significant. And you may well lose interest in the project by that time as well.

[QiWiz]

Here's some of the denser options I remember (or think I do)
the ubiquitous cracker packs (6 cracker sandwiches with cheese or PB) have 200 calories per pack
regular Snickers bars have 280 per bar
PB/nut butters have 190 per tbsp
Pop Tarts have ?400 per two tart envelope
Olive oil is hard to buy in small quantities but I sent it to myself in mail drops; similar to PB/nut butters - you can get half-ounce packets from minimus.com; also small bottles of 1.75 oz

[fenderbenderfc]

How come I never see any talk of protein powders? Especially the mass gainer varieties. They are loaded with good energy and require just being mixed with water.

[Rocketman]

Energy useful to muscles is generally considered to be glucose from blood sugars resulting from the digestion of carbohydrates and/or the ketone bodies resulting from the digestion of fatty acids resulting from the breakdown of fats.

Of lesser importance is the ability of the body to convert proteins into glucose, which is energetically inefficient and according to some, limited in the total amount of such conversions to a limited amount of glucose per day. I have read of efficiencies for protein to glucose conversion of as little as 30% in net energy available for muscular contractions.

In other words, concentrated proteins aren't actually dense sources of dietary calories useful for muscular expenditure. They are wonderful for the generation of muscle replacement tissues, or new muscle tissue.

So, possibly the reason for little discussion of these muscle building protein powders as concentrated energy sources is that they aren't actually concentrated energy sources for muscular mechanical work.

There must be people who have tried high protein powder based long distance backpacking diets (where the protein constitutes something like 60% of the daily calorie load) who can describe their results. Diets with only, say, 30 % calories from protein powders wouldn't be considered basically protein powered.

[fenderbenderfc]

Whey proteins the main source of protein in most powders is rather easily broken down by the body. I'm not saying to use protein powder as a staple of your diet but rather as a good source of easily digestible protein. I am thinking of carrying some and having a protein shake at night. Just to help muscle recovery would seem worth it to me.

[ScottS]

Rocketman, you may underestimate my ability to be obsessive. Currently up to 104 items. I would be happy to find 200 varieties of common food, honestly. I need to expand my trail diet.
Peter Pan is the most calorically dense so far at 6.5625 calories/gram.
Powerbar Protein Plus Dulce de Leche and Vanilla Yogurt are tied for best protein/gram at .3333.

Fender, I think it would only be sustainable for short trips or consistent mail drops. Also, I would bet the different cultures play a part. Generally speaking, there isn't much crossover between the granola and whey crowds.

Maybe Rocketman can get a bunch of guys from Miletich's out in the field to even it out.

[JAK]

Energy useful to muscles is generally considered to be glucose from blood sugars resulting from the digestion of carbohydrates and/or the ketone bodies resulting from the digestion of fatty acids resulting from the breakdown of fats.

Of lesser importance is the ability of the body to convert proteins into glucose, which is energetically inefficient and according to some, limited in the total amount of such conversions to a limited amount of glucose per day. I have read of efficiencies for protein to glucose conversion of as little as 30% in net energy available for muscular contractions.

In other words, concentrated proteins aren't actually dense sources of dietary calories useful for muscular expenditure. They are wonderful for the generation of muscle replacement tissues, or new muscle tissue.

So, possibly the reason for little discussion of these muscle building protein powders as concentrated energy sources is that they aren't actually concentrated energy sources for muscular mechanical work.

There must be people who have tried high protein powder based long distance backpacking diets (where the protein constitutes something like 60% of the daily calorie load) who can describe their results. Diets with only, say, 30 % calories from protein powders wouldn't be considered basically protein powered.

Lots of misinformation here. You probably wrote this off the top of your head. That's cool. Anyhow, I suggest you go back and do some reading on how the muscles store and burn fats right alongside the storage and burning of carbohydrates. Fats are a much more important fuel source than you are describing, and the body will typically burn more fat than carbs when hiking. Protiens are alot more complex and difficult to burn, and are problematic for digestion and kidneys. Anything above 30% is getting pretty scetchy, especially if you are talking like 40-60% of 5000 calories. That would be like 500 to 750g of protien, which would be like 4-6 pounds of lean meat.

Traditional Human Diet in northern regions where carbohydrates are scarce:
30% Protien, 60% Fats, 10% Carbs or less, but more would be better.

Traditional Human Diet in regions where primitive carbohydrates are more available:
15-30% Protien, 25-40% Fats, 30-50% Carbs, basically whatever is locally available.

It doesn't make sense to go to un-natural extremes to get more protien. It tends to be abundant in nature, in plants and animals, because it is what plants and animals are made of, but it isn't a good fuel source because it is more complex, and contains high levels of nitrogen. Fats and Carbs are equally good fuel sources, and both have their merits. A combination of the two is ideal, but you can swing one way or the other for different ends. For hiking higher fats are better, like 50-60% fat, 30-40% carbs, 10-15% protien, because the level of effort is long, steady, and moderate, and fats weigh less. The exception is when much of this fat is coming from excess fat reserves. Then the 60%/30%/10% becomes more like 20-30% fat, 50-60% carbs, and 20% protien as you reduce the fat in your diet and keep carbs and protiens the same.

[swjohnsey]

Rocketman, you may underestimate my ability to be obsessive. Currently up to 104 items. I would be happy to find 200 varieties of common food, honestly. I need to expand my trail diet.
Peter Pan is the most calorically dense so far at 6.5625 calories/gram.
Powerbar Protein Plus Dulce de Leche and Vanilla Yogurt are tied for best protein/gram at .3333.

Fender, I think it would only be sustainable for short trips or consistent mail drops. Also, I would bet the different cultures play a part. Generally speaking, there isn't much crossover between the granola and whey crowds.

Maybe Rocketman can get a bunch of guys from Miletich's out in the field to even it out.

Any kind of vegetable oil will beat out peanut butter, including stuff like sqeeze margarine.

[ScottP]

Lots of misinformation here. You probably wrote this off the top of your head. That's cool. Anyhow, I suggest you go back and do some reading on how the muscles store and burn fats right alongside the storage and burning of carbohydrates. Fats are a much more important fuel source than you are describing, and the body will typically burn more fat than carbs when hiking. Protiens are alot more complex and difficult to burn, and are problematic for digestion and kidneys. Anything above 30% is getting pretty scetchy, especially if you are talking like 40-60% of 5000 calories. That would be like 500 to 750g of protien, which would be like 4-6 pounds of lean meat.

Traditional Human Diet in northern regions where carbohydrates are scarce:
30% Protien, 60% Fats, 10% Carbs or less, but more would be better.

Traditional Human Diet in regions where primitive carbohydrates are more available:
15-30% Protien, 25-40% Fats, 30-50% Carbs, basically whatever is locally available.

It doesn't make sense to go to un-natural extremes to get more protien. It tends to be abundant in nature, in plants and animals, because it is what plants and animals are made of, but it isn't a good fuel source because it is more complex, and contains high levels of nitrogen. Fats and Carbs are equally good fuel sources, and both have their merits. A combination of the two is ideal, but you can swing one way or the other for different ends. For hiking higher fats are better, like 50-60% fat, 30-40% carbs, 10-15% protien, because the level of effort is long, steady, and moderate, and fats weigh less. The exception is when much of this fat is coming from excess fat reserves. Then the 60%/30%/10% becomes more like 20-30% fat, 50-60% carbs, and 20% protien as you reduce the fat in your diet and keep carbs and protiens the same.

The protein stuff is JAK said very true. The more active you are the LESS protein (as a percentage) you need in your diet. The protein for athlete crazes is from some early ex-phys and nutrition research, and the protein=success finding was actually a statistical relic

Jak, Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know there isn't necessarily a one to one between the source of your energy (fats vs carbs) and which your body actually uses as a source of calories for exertion. IIRC carbs take less oxygen to convert to energy during exercise, but your body has a fairly limited supply in the form of glycogen (1600 calories or so) that it can readily draw on. Your body will use fat when it can, and carbs when it needs to (you can actually look up a graph of heart rate versus % carbs and get a good idea). But any carbs you digest and don't either use immediately or turn into glycogen get turned into fat. Energy in your body is pretty fungible.

There's also a digestion issue here--your body digest carbs very quickly and easily when compared to fats/proteins, so you have the energy available quickly and your body isn't working on digestion instead of hiking.



I've found that in shape and with a high carb diet I do days in the 37-42 mile range on a regular basis (that is to say, any day that isn't a resupply day or where something major has gone wrong), and that I'm not able to hike that strongly on higher-fat diets (I can get away with a bit more fat the the cold weather, and a bit less in deserts). Also, I usually avoid 'town food' that many hikers rely on. Maybe if you are only hiking half the day then a high fat diet makes more sense, I'm not sure. But I've found that the extra few ounces per day that I carry by keeping my fat intake below that of other hikers (as a percent) is one of the few 'extra' things I'm willing to carry.

[ScottS]

Any kind of vegetable oil will beat out peanut butter, including stuff like sqeeze margarine.

I'll keep that in mind when I want a dinner of margarine and oil.