GSMNP charging for backcountry camping in 2013

[Sly]

Sorry, no politics (kills me to say that ). I've deleted the post that had them and edited others. If it continues, I'll close the thread.

It looks like y'all be paying fees to camp in the Smokies, deal with it, or skip them.

[Spokes]

I'm wondering what the protocol will be for thrus. Most would be guessing as to how many days they will be in the park. I'm wondering if there would be a set fee for thrus.

Lots of unknowns but according to this article in National Parks Traveler it doesn't look like thru hikers will get any special treatment. Imposing a fee on thru hikers seems to negate the rule of a thru hiker giving up their spot in a shelter to someone who has a "reservation".

You'll likely hear more "If I pay, I lay." when this rule takes effect.


http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com...ail-thru-h8571

[Lone Wolf]

$12-$16 for 3 or 4 nights in the park is not much to ask. most folks will gladly pay it but thru-hikers are sure gonna whine about it

[CrumbSnatcher]

$12-$16 for 3 or 4 nights in the park is not much to ask. most folks will gladly pay it but thru-hikers are sure gonna whine about it

most thruhikers
i would gladly pay. what about a toll booth at both entrances to the park via the road? probably just make it worse

[ambroseya]

Right, I don't have a problem with them charging it (although like others have said, I really don't at all "get" how we can have cades cove bumper to bumper "sightseeing from cars" at no charge, but charge for camping... especially after talking to a ridgerunner I met last weekend on the Low Gap Trail about trail upkeep, it sounds like that's all done by different people than would benefit from any proceeds to the NPS.

My biggest issue with it is fear over how they will charge thru-hikers. The fact that you have to camp in shelters if you're not thru-hiking is the only reason we already didn't plan on camping any there before we actually thruhike (we will lean on the lovely state park system which has much more backcountry camping in TN, and less tourist crowds). The money is just one more dissuasion. We plan on dayhiking most of the park though, before thruhiking, just to train for the AT.

I would hate to pay more for thruhiking than I used (such as, pay per night before entering the park, pay the higher amount to give self time, wind up hiking faster than anticipated, no refund). I don't know how the park is going to deal with it, but I'm nervous because we wanted to be an *early start* 2013 and I don't know how long it takes them to iron out the kinks...

Does anyone have enough experience with changing regulation to feel secure that they will have it 100% laid out before it is required, so that early start thru-hikers don't get caught in trouble with it? It will be our first thru-hike and I'm nervous about it.

[SGT Rock]

My guess is the rules will be in place before the summer rush of people hit as this is the target of their rules, not necessarily the thru-hikers. Thru-hiking season in the park may feel crowded in the park, but it is not that much compared to the real press of section hikers that hit May, June, July, and August.

Lets face it, they have to get the software developed and bug tested. They have to develop the system to collect fees, and then they have to tweak the rules for situations like plan changes, thru-hikers, weather call-offs, etc. I imagine that they will have public comment periods before all that is solid and in effect as well. I think there is a good chance if you start early next year you might even get through before the impact hits.

FWIW what I would do is section the Smokys before you start you actual thru, and then skip the Smokys. Many people even on a thru will jump around and reverse directions when given the chance to slack pack. Most people define a thru as a hike completed in a 12 month period, so if you section the Smokies and summit before 12 months have passed you could meet the definition of thru that many use. It is ambivalent though, your hike is however you decided to do it. Some people want a straight northbound trek from start to finish, some could care less as long as they have a good time. Many start with one idea but adapt to the trail as it happens.

When I attempted the AT in 2008 I had already sectioned all of the AT between Springer and Davenport Gap at least once. I wanted to see something different so I used the BMT to get from Springer to Davenport. It was my hike, and I am glad I did it that way.

[Lyle]

While I was very skeptical, it sounds like they have taken the comments into account and made adjustments. I'm not 100% opposed to user fees if they are reasonable and they are used to benefit the users who are paying them. This sounds encouraging, better than some policies I've seen implemented.

Hopefully it's not just a "foot in the door" step to be altered as time goes on. Willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now.

[SGT Rock]

I'm still skeptical. I cannot imagine that anyone managing the park down the line will think it is a good allocation of resources to have 2 part time LEO rangers patrolling the back country to enforce payments and LNT when there are assaults, accidents, traffic duties, and other more pressing LEO concerns in the front country. I see a few years down the line the rangers leaving the back country but hikers still paying for them.

Something else someone pointed out to me in the meeting and I don't know if it is true. At another nation park (I cannot remember which one) when they started something like this to a popular back country destination, the reservations were promptly bought up for the year and then appeared for sale in other places for 2-3 times the price. What will prevent a trip to Mt Lecont or Icewater Springs from being scalped?

[Lyle]

$12-$16 for 3 or 4 nights in the park is not much to ask. most folks will gladly pay it but thru-hikers are sure gonna whine about it

True, and I don't think that is unreasonable. My concern is that this is just the first step.

Example: Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore (part of NPS) in Michigan. North and South Manitou Islands are part of the park. The last time I was there, I had to pay the private ferry service for the round-trip ride to the island. Once on the Island, I had to pay a $5/night backcountry fee. There are no backcountry facilities other than some trails (old roads/rail beds), dispersed camping only. In addition to this, I had to pay a vehicle entrance fee for each day I was on the island. My vehicle never entered the Lakeshore property, it was parked in a private lot owned by the ferry service. Policy was everyone had to pay the vehicle entry fee to use the park. Made NO sense. My charges for a 9-day stay came out substantially higher than a college group of about 12 people that was charged at a group rate for a week. Although North Manitou Island is a great place to get away, I haven't been back since.

My point is, these fees, once started, take on a life of their own, and get out of hand.

[golden eagle]

They definitely should make thru-hikers pay and I hope they make them stick to a schedule as they go through the park and limit them to four spots in each shelter. That's the only fair way to do it. Otherwise, they will clog up the shelters as they always do and that's going to cause conflict with the rest of the paying customers. Of course, that will cause a real logjam down at Fontana, but that's tough. If the thru-hikers don't like it, they can go around the park.

[Duramax22]

I spend alot of time in the smokys seeing as it is close to my home. I would be willing to bet that a single digit percentile of the parks backcountry permits are thru hikers. GSMNP has 850 miles of trails. I will guarantee that more people file a permit for mt leconte alone than a thru hike. Everybody knows its been coming for a long time.

[golden eagle]

In addition, there's no way the two new rangers can cover the entire park to enforce these stupid fees. I bet they stay completely off the A.T. and leave it to the ridgerunners to enforce. Which will only lead to trouble since ridgerunners have no authority and shouldn't act like cops.

[Duramax22]

most thruhikers
i would gladly pay. what about a toll booth at both entrances to the park via the road? probably just make it worse

They have considered that but 441 is a state maintained highway and is not limited to the park so the park would only get a small percentage of the toll money. basically like the West Virginia Turnpikes- lots of money collected little used for roads

[CrumbSnatcher]

They have considered that but 441 is a state maintained highway and is not limited to the park so the park would only get a small percentage of the toll money. basically like the West Virginia Turnpikes- lots of money collected little used for roads

thanks for the response, i was just thinking the SNP charges how hard would it be, but different type of road
i do remember driving thru w. virginia, seemed like a toll booth every few miles :-)

[golden eagle]

Regarding charging a fee for entrance, the deed from the state of Tennessee surrendering the road to the park service prohibits any fee. The park service would have to ask the state legislature to change the deed to charge any fee.

[ChinMusic]

They definitely should make thru-hikers pay and I hope they make them stick to a schedule as they go through the park and limit them to four spots in each shelter. That's the only fair way to do it. Otherwise, they will clog up the shelters as they always do and that's going to cause conflict with the rest of the paying customers. Of course, that will cause a real logjam down at Fontana, but that's tough. If the thru-hikers don't like it, they can go around the park.

-1...........

[Lone Wolf]

They definitely should make thru-hikers pay and I hope they make them stick to a schedule as they go through the park and limit them to four spots in each shelter. That's the only fair way to do it. Otherwise, they will clog up the shelters as they always do and that's going to cause conflict with the rest of the paying customers. Of course, that will cause a real logjam down at Fontana, but that's tough. If the thru-hikers don't like it, they can go around the park.

+1.........

[golden eagle]

Thru-hikers aren't special, yet they've been getting special treatment in the park forever. They run in great packs, clogging up shelters and making everyone miserable. If boy scouts did this, we'd all be outraged. On rainy days, they'll often just sit in the shelter for a couple days, making overcrowding even worse. They are a blight on the park.

[ChinMusic]

Interesting that you and LW support a logjam at Fontana.

[golden eagle]

Interesting that you and LW support a logjam at Fontana.

I don't support a logjam. I just don't care whether there is a logjam.