Why people carry so much "stuff"

[mikec]

Ladies & Gentlemen, people do learn to lighten up after awhile. But my philosophy has always been: Carry more stuff, be uncomfortable during the day but more comfortable at night. I have hiked with ultra lite guys that have told me the next morning that they froze their you know what off the night before because they were carrying a light bag and/or not enough clothes.

[chief]

so I guess you're the 1 in 10,000 that won't enjoy my music =)

And hopefully those few afflicted with absolute pitch will suffer in silence.

[Hoop]

So, this weekend a buddy and I hiked AFSP to Woody Gap. Lots of jettisoned gear. Brand new shoes lying neatly on the side of the trail. Ziplock bags of food. At Hawk Mt shelter a manly shovel folded up in a heavy plastic case, and second one lying next to it. Coleman's fuel, beanies, shirts, tarps, trash. At Gooch shelter an almost full bottle of Jim Beam, waiting for a hangover candidate. At one campsite, two full jumbo jars of peanut butter. TP within feet of the water at Three Forks and at Justus Creek. A nice ukalele - now, that I packed out. If I knew who abandoned it, I'd return it. Met a guy on Springer who was dejected, headed home - on the first day he'd become dehydrated, then pulled a quad, and to top it off he broke a tooth at supper.

[rocketsocks]

So, this weekend a buddy and I hiked AFSP to Woody Gap. Lots of jettisoned gear. Brand new shoes lying neatly on the side of the trail. Ziplock bags of food. At Hawk Mt shelter a manly shovel folded up in a heavy plastic case, and second one lying next to it. Coleman's fuel, beanies, shirts, tarps, trash. At Gooch shelter an almost full bottle of Jim Beam, waiting for a hangover candidate. At one campsite, two full jumbo jars of peanut butter. TP within feet of the water at Three Forks and at Justus Creek. A nice ukalele - now, that I packed out. If I knew who abandoned it, I'd return it. Met a guy on Springer who was dejected, headed home - on the first day he'd become dehydrated, then pulled a quad, and to top it off he broke a tooth at supper.

If you ask me,that sounds alot like "Littering"to me.I mean if I brought it in,"Pack It Out" to a trash can somewhere.JM2C

[rocketsocks]

If you ask me,that sounds alot like "Littering"to me.I mean if I brought it in,"Pack It Out" to a trash can somewhere.JM2C

And another thing,Why is it ok to leave stuff all over "My" woods.

[Malto]

I have hiked with ultra lite guys that have told me the next morning that they froze their you know what off the night before because they were carrying a light bag and/or not enough clothes.

Then you have hiked with inexperienced UL hikers.

[CrumbSnatcher]

i posted the other day, most first time inspiring AT thruhikers have never hiked before, and was told that i was F.O.S
thats just something i've heard a hundred times over the years from all sorts of people, including wingfoot,hostel owners,etc...
something i have witnessed and i too never hiked before my first thruhike attempt. i could be wrong but if im right, without experience, they might not realize they are littering? its been going on for a long time, they use to joke you could start at springer and pick up all the gear you need before neels gap :-) i once saw a pair of jeans laying on the trail, but its ok because they did fold them real nice! :-)
i think the internet helps some but hurts some too, it ain't just the inexperienced UL'ers its alot of all of them

[STICK]

Then you have hiked with inexperienced UL hikers.

I partly agree with this...

I think that it is a compromise one way or another...

It is either pack a little extra and have a little too much most nights, but what you need on some nights...

OR

Pack a little less and have enough most nights, and maybe not quite enough on some nights...

One part of being "UL" is by having true "UL" gear that works for you, and the other part of being "UL" is by carrying only what you need, and at times it can be hard to predict one way or another what to carry. Example: I recently hiked from Wayah Gap to Sassafras Gap Shelter. We had highs of nearly 70 F and lows of freezing. I opted in favor of warmth and carried my Marmot Helium rather than either of my much lighter quilts. The first night I was almost uncomfortably hot, then the next I was snuggled in, warm and cozy. So, technically one could say that I over packed on this trip. OTOH, if I had brought my lighter quilt I would have been comfy one night and cold the other, but one could have then said I underpacked... Either way, I was comfy one night and not so much the other. However, for this trip, my BPW was still only 9.5 lbs so I was still considered "UL" even though I did in fact overpack...

So, as far as actually being "UL"...and being comfortable, I think it is quite possible, but as gg-man eludes to...it does take a little bit of experience and understanding to pull it off successfully. Which is why it may be a good thing that most start off with a little extra rather than not enough. By the time they reach Neels Gap they should have some understanding of what they want and what they don't want, at which time they will ship the excess back home, unless they have left it behind on the trail...

But, I think for someone that comes out without any attempt to research what they will actually need it is good for them to figure it out the hard way. Heck, my first hike was from AFSPVC to Neels Gap and with some research I still left with a 56 + lb pack...carrying the pack was miserable (although I loved the trip and wanted more), but I learned a lot...so much in fact that I recently rehiked from Springer to Neels Gap with a total pack weight of 17 lbs (yep, that included food, water and fuel too). That is right at 40 lbs lighter! Not to mention the first time was in September when it was warm, and the more recent trip was in January which was obviously colder and required more substantial gear. I would like to add that the last trip was more comfy, both on the trail as well as in camp.

[Papa D]

www.nathanielmaloney.com I guess I'm just being my typical artistic sensitive self...so pardon for getting upset about the comment above about hitting notes....

Hey man - I went to your website and I like your music - most of the tunes I listen to that are not live, I need to download to get on my I-pod mini so I can fall asleep in my tent - if you send me a P/M , I'll buy a song or two from you -- best regards, PD

[moongoddess]

But, I think for someone that comes out without any attempt to research what they will actually need it is good for them to figure it out the hard way.

The only problem I see with that approach is that some of them unnecessarily conclude "Backpacking's not for me!" because they don't know it's possible to hike safely carrying less weight. It's one thing if someone decides to give up backpacking because they just don't like spending extended time outdoors (too many bugs, no air conditioning,etc.); it's something else if they quit because they hate carrying 50 pounds on their back and just didn't know that they could have been carrying 25 pounds instead if they'd packed more carefully and chosen lighter gear.

The other problem with figuring it out as you go along isn't quite as bad: the biggest weight savings come by replacing your backpack, tent, and sleeping bag with lighter models - and those are generally also the most expensive pieces of gear. Replacing them can be a financial burden. It would be better if beginners could be steered to reasonably light (but not necessarily ultralight) gear in the first place. Instead of a 6 pound pack, 5 pound tent, and 4 pound sleeping bag, sell them a 3 pound pack, 2 pound tent, and 2 1/2 pound sleeping bag. But that would require outfitters to look past the immediate sale in favor of long-term development of the hobby, and to know more about backpacking (as opposed to car camping), and I don't see that happening. Too many outfitters don't carry much in the way of light gear; of course they're going to want to sell whatever they already have in stock. And they're always going to sell more to clothes shoppers, dayhikers, and car campers than to backpackers, so it will be hard for them to maintain a current backpacking knowledge base.

[STICK]

The only problem I see with that approach is that some of them unnecessarily conclude "Backpacking's not for me!" because they don't know it's possible to hike safely carrying less weight. It's one thing if someone decides to give up backpacking because they just don't like spending extended time outdoors (too many bugs, no air conditioning,etc.); it's something else if they quit because they hate carrying 50 pounds on their back and just didn't know that they could have been carrying 25 pounds instead if they'd packed more carefully and chosen lighter gear.

The other problem with figuring it out as you go along isn't quite as bad: the biggest weight savings come by replacing your backpack, tent, and sleeping bag with lighter models - and those are generally also the most expensive pieces of gear. Replacing them can be a financial burden. It would be better if beginners could be steered to reasonably light (but not necessarily ultralight) gear in the first place. Instead of a 6 pound pack, 5 pound tent, and 4 pound sleeping bag, sell them a 3 pound pack, 2 pound tent, and 2 1/2 pound sleeping bag. But that would require outfitters to look past the immediate sale in favor of long-term development of the hobby, and to know more about backpacking (as opposed to car camping), and I don't see that happening. Too many outfitters don't carry much in the way of light gear; of course they're going to want to sell whatever they already have in stock. And they're always going to sell more to clothes shoppers, dayhikers, and car campers than to backpackers, so it will be hard for them to maintain a current backpacking knowledge base.

I do agree with you...but, I also think that anyone that is really planning to do a thru hike has got to be smart enough to get some help somewhere...whether it is Google or an outfitter or a friend...but you also make a good point about the cost of some items (namely the bigger items that you pointed out). There is tons of help out there though...namely these forums...I am very thankful for this forum and others that I frequent...I have probably learned more from the forums than I have any other single source...but how do we get more people to come to these sites...

I also think that if backpacking is something that someone really wants to do, then they will do it regardless. I started out with almost 60 lbs...and it was a bugger toting the pack...but I loved being on the trail enough to go back and ask some more questions and dig deeper. But, at the same time, I am glad that I went out there with that heavy load because it did indeed teach me a thing or two...and the next time I walked out the door I looked at things I put in my pack differently...this alone saved me a fair amount of weight because I realized I did not need things such as that "little" tack hammer...a rock or my foot will also drive a stake in the ground...but then replacing most of my gear also saved a good amount of weight too. And this took me from the Amicalola Visitor Center to Neels Gap to figure out. The same as most thru hikers. I guess though to be fair, I was not thru hiking and had the luxury to go home, save some more money and work at it. But this leads me to my first paragraph again...if they really want to do this, as big of a task as it is then they have got to be smart enough to research it...

Maybe we should set up a booth that people go through near Springer before they start the trail so people can get "shake downs" and can ask questions then... (Not really... )

[moongoddess]

I do agree with you...but, I also think that anyone that is really planning to do a thru hike has got to be smart enough to get some help somewhere...whether it is Google or an outfitter or a friend...

All too often, though, the outfitter or the friend gives bad advice (without even knowing it's bad advice), so unless the newbie finds their way onto a good backpacking site like this one, they innocently buy all the wrong stuff. In another thread on this site, I've been talking to a young woman who's received some advice from a local outfitter. She wound up with an 80 L, 6 lb pack (gotta have a BIG pack to carry all that gear you're going to need on a long hike, you know!), and was told that a 2-person tent weighing 5 lbs, 8 oz would be a good tent for her solo hike. 11.5 lbs already, and she hasn't even added a sleep system, stove system, or clothes. Yikes! Most women would really struggle to carry a pack weighing 40+ pounds any distance, but starting out with that sort of gear is exactly how you get to one.

And I think part of the problem is that "heavy" gear doesn't feel heavy when it's viewed in isolation. A 6 lb backpack or tent feels light when you pick it up. I think beginners have a hard time grasping how additive the weight is, because they buy (and thus think) of each piece of gear in isolation. It's not until they load everything into the pack that they realize they've created a monster load.

but how do we get more people to come to these sites...

That's a good question, and one I have no answer for.

I also think that if backpacking is something that someone really wants to do, then they will do it regardless....if they really want to do this, as big of a task as it is then they have got to be smart enough to research it...

There's probably quite a bit of truth to that, too. Maybe for some people hands-on experience is the way they learn best, so they need to get out there with their gear and figure out on their own whether they can handle its weight or whether they need to find a way to lighten it up.

Maybe we should set up a booth that people go through near Springer before they start the trail so people can get "shake downs" and can ask questions then... (Not really... )

I'll leave that job to you. You know a lot more about lightweight techniques than I do and have a lot more trail miles under your belt - and besides, I can't afford to be repeatedly pounding my head in frustration (I already do enough of that at my day job!)

[JAK]

I wonder how much outfitters have to do with people buying too much stuff.

[Capt Nat]

It sounds like a business opportunity to routinely collect all the abandoned gear and open an outfitters selling the "slightly" used gear.

[TyTy]

I just thought about something...

You know what outfitters should do, they should have some old packs over in the corner with weights written on them...15lbs, 25lbs, 35lbs, 45lbs, 55lbs or something. Let people pick them up and hold them then start the discussion and purchasing from there. The simple act of hoisting and putting a 35-45 lb pack on your back will make you think twice.

I guess that wouldn't be conducive to selling you 55lbs of gear though.

[timmy_toes]

I just thought about something...

You know what outfitters should do, they should have some old packs over in the corner with weights written on them...15lbs, 25lbs, 35lbs, 45lbs, 55lbs or something. Let people pick them up and hold them then start the discussion and purchasing from there. The simple act of hoisting and putting a 35-45 lb pack on your back will make you think twice.

I guess that wouldn't be conducive to selling you 55lbs of gear though.

it might be smart for them to sell you that so you come back with your wallet open for that UL pack and tent along with countless other UL gear

[paintedstars]

Hey man - I went to your website and I like your music - most of the tunes I listen to that are not live, I need to download to get on my I-pod mini so I can fall asleep in my tent - if you send me a P/M , I'll buy a song or two from you -- best regards, PD

Hey Papa D, thanks much for listening to the music. I have to get 3 of my albums up on itunes and other music retail outlets as I am in the process of changing distributors.

On the topic of why people carry so much....well I learned my lesson the past two days. I went backpacking in Oil Creek State Park and there were some really hilly sections. I am not taking a guitar, and not taking my dslr after all. I will just be content listening to music and taking video and photo on my smart phone. That's the extent of luxury I will take with me on this journey as I am under time constraint.

[kombiguy]

On the other hand, I've been wearing what we used to call "waffle stompers" for 40 years now and see no reason to change. I like them, they mold to my feet, and each pair lasts 20 years. So why change what works just to fit in with current thinking?

[Theosus]

It sounds like a business opportunity to routinely collect all the abandoned gear and open an outfitters selling the "slightly" used gear.

I was thinking the same thing. Start at neels with very little and a huge pack, first or second week of April, and head south. Have someone waiting for you at fs42.

[Papa D]

The only problem I see with that approach is that some of them unnecessarily conclude "Backpacking's not for me!" because they don't know it's possible to hike safely carrying less weight. It's one thing if someone decides to give up backpacking because they just don't like spending extended time outdoors (too many bugs, no air conditioning,etc.); it's something else if they quit because they hate carrying 50 pounds on their back and just didn't know that they could have been carrying 25 pounds instead if they'd packed more carefully and chosen lighter gear.

The other problem with figuring it out as you go along isn't quite as bad: the biggest weight savings come by replacing your backpack, tent, and sleeping bag with lighter models - and those are generally also the most expensive pieces of gear. Replacing them can be a financial burden. It would be better if beginners could be steered to reasonably light (but not necessarily ultralight) gear in the first place. Instead of a 6 pound pack, 5 pound tent, and 4 pound sleeping bag, sell them a 3 pound pack, 2 pound tent, and 2 1/2 pound sleeping bag. But that would require outfitters to look past the immediate sale in favor of long-term development of the hobby, and to know more about backpacking (as opposed to car camping), and I don't see that happening. Too many outfitters don't carry much in the way of light gear; of course they're going to want to sell whatever they already have in stock. And they're always going to sell more to clothes shoppers, dayhikers, and car campers than to backpackers, so it will be hard for them to maintain a current backpacking knowledge base.

This is an excellent post. JAK also queried how much Outfitters have to do with heavyweight gear: I'd say that several forces are at work here:

1) People often "learn to backpack" by carrying what they "learned to camp with" from car camping types, military or boys-scout types - all heavyweight "be prepared for everything" oriented thinking
2) They shop at so-called Outfitters that are really not "Outfitters" - they are disguised Big Box Stores - - Bass Pro Shops and Dicks Sporting Goods - - these are huge culprits - they should go to a real local outfitter!
3) Sales people make money on selling extra junk - - people assume they need stuff and unwittingly play along - - even in local stores, most sales people are not actual long-distance backpackers.
4) Fear of not having something tends to drive people in the direction of heavy weight more than whatever "we" tell them. I suppose there is just a learning curve - - some folks never get there.