Does a closed cell sleeping pad really help with a frameless pack?

[PR Man]

In the past I've always used (heavy) internal-frame packs.

I'm finally getting into the ultralite range and want to go with a
frameless pack - but I'm concerned about being able to transfer weight to
my hips (because of a tender back).

I use a neo-air pad and love it - - but I wonder how much it helps
to have a closed-cell pad to help frame the pack.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Malto]

You may be able to use your neoair folded up directly against your back for a quasi frame, I did this on my thru hike. How important "the framing" is will depend on what you are carrying, your pack capacity and whether you allow your bag/quilt to expand. If you can fill you pack out and not have the weight on the top you can likely get away without anything. Of course lower pack weights make that easier. Try a couple of things out, you may find a winner

[ScottP]

CCF pad as a 'frame' helps just a little bit. If you have a tender back you're probably better off sleeping comfortably at night with your neo-air and lightening up your gear load as much as possible.

Welcome to the world of ultralighting .Enjoy your stay!

[garlic08]

Good question, and it all depends on your load and your back. I wonder if a frameless pack with removable stays will help? I think Gossamer Gear and SixMoons makes them. It's a flexible option, so to speak. Like gg-man says, try a few things out and see what works. I've seen at least one frameless pack user put two sections of Z-rest in the back for padding and sitting, and use an inflatable pad for sleeping. The lighter pack weight may, in time, completely negate the back issue anyway. Good luck.

[Tinker]

The best support for a frameless pack comes from a simple blue foam pad which you can purchase anywhere from Wally world to REI, but it must be cut to the height of the pack body, be long enough to line the interior of the pack itself (not folded and placed in a pocket on the side of the pack facing your back) as a cylinder into which you must tightly pack your gear. A simple barrel shaped pack body is best for this. A tapered pack will not allow the foam to work as well unless it is cut to the taper. The Gossamer Gear pack I had was much wider at the bottom and could not be "lined" with closed cell foam effectively. I sold it and am currently using a Golite Dawn with a Granite Gear Virga on deck as my future pack once the thinning bottom of the Golite pack wears through.

[daddytwosticks]

What garlic said. If your inflatable pad is 3/4 length, grab a small section of blue Wal-mart pad for your pack frame. Great for under the feet while sleeping or as a sit pad. BTW, I use my Prolite 3 slightly inflated as a frame for my old Conduit pack. Works great.

[lemon b]

When I made the change from external to internal. I had the same type of worries. Where was the weight burdan going to end up? What I did was take my old pack fully loaded down to an outfitter. Then tried on different packs loaded up with my stuff. I was also concerned that my gear wouldn't fit in. Now on season 2 with a lighter load I'm thinking maybe I need a smaller 50 instead of a 65 pack for the 2-3 nighters. Anyway alot of my changeover fears were not warrented.

[russb]

IMO, the pad doesn't really provide support, transfer weight to hips, nor is even necessary to do so with an ultralight kit. With an UL kit, the typical packing methodology is to jam everything into the pack. It is the filling of the pack which gives it the most structure. The hipbelt on these packs doesn't accept weight, instead it is more of a securing to the body mechanism. That said, a pad does serve a purpose namely to provide a barrier between the pack contents and one's back.

[garlic08]

One of the problems I've seen with frameless packs is that someone might buy the light pack to shave a couple pounds off their load, but they don't change the rest of the load. So the GoLite pack is crammed to overflowing with 38 pounds of crap (down from 40!) with stuff tied to the outside and it's extremely uncomfortable and destroys the pack quickly. So yes, with that kind of load, a foam pad is pretty meaningless. Personally, I waited to get a frameless pack until I got my base load down to 10 pounds, and the pad basically forgives minor packing mistakes.

[ATSeamstress]

This is what works for me. I used a homemade Jardine style pack.

(What Tinker said in Post #5)

[on_the_GOEZ]

The ULA CDT and Ohm (and possibly others) come with a very light, simple piece of black foam to use as a backpad in the event you dont use another kind of foam sleeping pad but somekind of inflatable instead. Im considering making the NeoAir jump which would make the ZLite redundant. Something else to consider: it depends on how you pack your ruck, i.e. what items will be resting where on your back. My quilt is always on the very bottom, therefore comfortably resting on my hips and lower back.

[PR Man]

Thanks so much ! Yes - my "base weight" is definitely under 10 pounds already. I hope to have everything (including
the pack itself and food under 20 lbs) The only extra weight will be water - which will push it between 20 and 25.
Like lots of folks - I started out 3 years ago with a silly weight pack (and thought I had done well) - - the more I learn
and the more experience I get, the less I need.

Thanks again.

[Wags]

i'd suggest some shorter practice runs first. load up your pack w/o the ccf pad and take a dayhike. go short, like 3 miles. then gradually build it up. if you are exeriencing pain after 4 or 5 hours then imagine how much it'll be after 12.

that's what i'd do...

[ScottP]

Good work getting that packweight down.

If you have back issues you may want to keep cutting.

[skinewmexico]

If you have a pad pocket, put your Neo in it, and inflate it slightly. After your pack is loaded, make sure it is compressed tightly.

[1234]

In the past I've always used (heavy) internal-frame packs.

I'm finally getting into the ultralite range and want to go with a
frameless pack - but I'm concerned about being able to transfer weight to
my hips (because of a tender back).

I use a neo-air pad and love it - - but I wonder how much it helps
to have a closed-cell pad to help frame the pack.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

My opinion is no. I have back issues I used a katadin frameless pack (<1#)and the closed cell z-rest made a good circle in the pack to stuff. I even tried to leave it together in theback. Plain truth is it did not transfer enough to your waist. I installed 2 aluminum rods to solve the problem, they wore holes in the pack. I now use a REI flash large, 2# 10oz. not ultra light but it sure saves my back. I think when I was 25 nothing would have bothered me.

[Franco]

In my opinion at over 20lbs you could be a lot more comfortable using something like a ULA Circuit (about 2.3lbs without some of the included "extras") with a minimalistic frame that allows most of the weight to be transferred to the hips rather than using a 1 lbs pack that does not...
(at least that is how it works for me...)
Franco

[MuddyWaters]

CCF pads are used as a frame , and when packed well can prevent "torso collapse". This is effective shortening of the torso length of the pack , which loads your shoulders with the straps and prevents you from being able to take weight off of them.

This works OK within narrow weight limitations, and is also highly dependent on packing, and the torso length of the pack. If its a bit long on you , it may work fine after being packed.

If you have a true frameless pack, you have no choice but to do this. Note that the point where you can pretty much just carry all the weight on your shoulders without complaint is about 15 lbs. Above this, using a CCF pad as a frame can help make the pack rigid, and the load tolerable up to 20+ for a short period. However, the shape of the pack may not be the most comfortable.

[kevperro]

In my opinion at over 20lbs you could be a lot more comfortable using something like a ULA Circuit (about 2.3lbs without some of the included "extras") with a minimalistic frame that allows most of the weight to be transferred to the hips rather than using a 1 lbs pack that does not...
(at least that is how it works for me...)
Franco

I'm with Franco... it is weight well worth carrying. It also makes loading your pack less of a concern (I'm lazy) and my typical pack weight is between 12lbs-25lbs.... tending toward the lower end.

[MuddyWaters]

In my opinion at over 20lbs you could be a lot more comfortable using something like a ULA Circuit (about 2.3lbs without some of the included "extras") with a minimalistic frame that allows most of the weight to be transferred to the hips rather than using a 1 lbs pack that does not...
(at least that is how it works for me...)
Franco

I pretty much agree with this too. In fact I only use my Ohm at wts under 20, because the circuit is so much better even though it weighs 12 oz more at weights above 20. Now the Ohm has a very supportive structure because the carbon fiber stay goes straight into the belt on the Ohm 1.0, even though the belt is minimal. But the more supportive belt of the circuit far outweighs the 12oz savings at heavier loads. The shape of the load in a frameless pack is a big part of it. If the pack is shaped to fit into your lower back, it stays there. If it isnt, ie cylinder shape, it sucks.