Need more honest feedback

[SGT Rock]

Last time I asked about a stove design, I got some good feedback here. So now I am asking about a new stove design...

Seems the biggest concern with my Ion stove was it was slower than some people wanted. So I set out to build something that would boil the **** out of water I actually made a stove so hot it was melting my windscreens. This led to switching to Titanium to replace the windscreen and Tipod stand. As I was working with it I said to myself:

"Self, you could also burn wood in that thing, that would save fuel in that you would only need to use alcohol when you were unable to find some good wood."

So I modified the design some and made a prototype from aluminum since I am running out of my last batch of titanium. It seems to have worked. I can boil 16 ounces of water in about 4:00 - 4:30 with around 0.5-0.75 ounces of fuel.

http://hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0342.jpg - burning wood.

http://hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0340.jpg - alcohol burner

(note, these pictures are of a very rough built prototype)

It takes about $25 worth of titanium to make the stand/screen. Add to that a stove and labor, it would cost about $45 to sell one stove. The stove is made to work only with a pot that is about 4.75" - 5.5" in diameter - I have been working with the Evernew 0.9 L pot.

The cool benefit though is the stove can now burn wood similar to this stove: http://www.trailstove.com/index2.html except that mine would be able to come apart and nest inside a 5.5" pot and the stove, blow tube, and windscreen/stand should only weigh about 3.5 ounces.

I figure a packing list for a stove like this would be something like this:

3.5 ounces Stove
0.6 ounces for a 4oz fuel bottle
3.2 ounces of alcohol (4 fluid ounces)
2.5 ounces of fire starter (10 Vaseline soaked cotton balls)
0.2 ounce for a small zip lock to hold the cotton swabs
4.0 incs for a 0.9 L Evernew pot
0.8 ounces for a Scripto lighter
0.8 ounces for a pot cozy
15.6 ounces total

I figure that is still less start weight than a canister stove with the ability for unlimited cooking as long as you can find something flammable.

So, is it worth $45 to someone to get something like this? Should I even mess with it?

[food]

Top,

The stove I would like is a small Ti Kelly Kettle at a reasonable weight that would also burn alcohol.

http://www.kellykettle.com/default.htm

I would use it with alcohol for nordic ski day trips and the wood option would make it a great emergency stove.

[SGT Rock]

That would be nice Food, but that sort of machine work is WAY over my ability. I would guess that sort of Titanium product would cost about $100 retail if someone even put the effort into it.

[hikerjohnd]

seems expensive for alcohol...

[SGT Rock]

seems expensive for alcohol...

Yes it does. That is part of my concern. Of course it is like having a zip stove and an alcohol burner together for onle 3.5 ounces weight. But $45...

Like I said, I don't know if anyone would even be interested.

[YerbaJon]

I actually made a stove so hot it was melting my windscreens.

I use twig stove similar design to yours: Nimblewill Nomad's Wood Burning Stove; http://zenstoves.net/Wood.htm.

I used a tomato can wood stove before the Niblewill Nomad's stove. The new one is constructed of Aluminum. I have not used it enough to know if it will hold up under 6 months of heavy use. Do you think it will melt? Did you only get yours to show melt signs with the alcohol stove? What gauge aluminium did you use?
I like your setup; I might consider bringing an alcohol stove as a backup. Could just use my 90% isopropal in a pinch if the environment offers me nothing good to burn. Personally, I think it is worth the 50$ for such a stove. I would have seriously considered your stove had I not already built them.

[SGT Rock]

I use twig stove similar design to yours: Nimblewill Nomad's Wood Burning Stove; http://zenstoves.net/Wood.htm.

It would be similar in weight to the Nimblewill Nomad stove using titanium that is listed at 3.3 ounces. Except my version would include an alcohol burner.

I used a tomato can wood stove before the Niblewill Nomad's stove. The new one is constructed of Aluminum. I have not used it enough to know if it will hold up under 6 months of heavy use. Do you think it will melt?

I don't know. I doubt it if you aren't seeing any degredation yet.

Did you only get yours to show melt signs with the alcohol stove? What gauge aluminium did you use?

The first windscreen is the same guage as the MSR windscreen. It basically burned through. The second was made from aluminum flashing, it collapsed and started to burn through.

[SGT Rock]

I made a new aluminum version a little cleaned up and ordered some titanium. I also painted the stove inside (the new Atomic Fireball) and the aluminum blow tube for priming. Here are some pictures:








I plan to call it the Pentagon stand. I just tested the Pentagon with the Trangia burner - worked great. That makes it just 0.5 ounces more than the original Trangia Westwind stand.

I can build the aluminum versions for about $24 each, but I don't know how long the bottom is going to last until I test it, and you would loose some of the benifits the titanium would provide for insulation in the walls.

[alanthealan]

I had to ponder parting with 24$ for the Ion, I don't think you could get me to part with 45$.

[Kerosene]

I like the dual-fuel (kind-a rhymes, don´t it) option and would gladly pay $45 for a stove like this that was well-built, ultra-light, and able to withstand a little abuse.

[SGT Rock]

Well what if I offered an aluminum version and a titanium version. The all aluminum version would weigh about the same as the titanium version without the benifits of ti although I have't tested the bottom. An all aluminum version (just the stand) would cost about $19. For about $5 more I could make it with a titanium "floor". I have been testing a mostly aluminum version with a steel floor (I need some ti for a ti floor test) and the walls are holding up fine with the Trangia, Ion, Atomic Fireball, and wood burning.

So if you could get an aluminum stand/screen like this for $19 would that be of possible interest?

I still plan to build myself a ti version.

[erichlf]

That alc stove does not have the ions hole. So it is a different stove, or am I missing somethig? It actaully could burn 3 fuels, because you could burn Esbit Fuel tabs if you wanted.

[SGT Rock]

The picture shows another stove I have tried to appease the backpacking microwave stove seekers. I am trying to make a fairly fuel efficient stove that will make the desired boil time for folks that want the water to boil in around 3 minutes and that is one incarnation of the stove that I am not yet happy with. Personally I love the Ion burner because I can hit camp, start dinner, then set up everything. By the time I have camp finished dinner is usually done without a risk of boiling over. I can do the same thing in the morning for coffee. But I also like the versatility of having a wood burner, so my plan personally is to make the titanium pentagon windscreen/stand and carry an Ion burner with it. But the eventual plan for my business is to make a stove that will weigh less than 3.6 ounces and boil water at around 3:00 so the folks that want gas stove speed will be satisfied.

And yes, esbit would work, as well as trioxane.

[erichlf]

The picture shows another stove I have tried to appease the backpacking microwave stove seekers. I am trying to make a fairly fuel efficient stove that will make the desired boil time for folks that want the water to boil in around 3 minutes and that is one incarnation of the stove that I am not yet happy with. Personally I love the Ion burner because I can hit camp, start dinner, then set up everything. By the time I have camp finished dinner is usually done without a risk of boiling over. I can do the same thing in the morning for coffee. But I also like the versatility of having a wood burner, so my plan personally is to make the titanium pentagon windscreen/stand and carry an Ion burner with it. But the eventual plan for my business is to make a stove that will weigh less than 3.6 ounces and boil water at around 3:00 so the folks that want gas stove speed will be satisfied.

And yes, esbit would work, as well as trioxane.

I am looking into going into business myself. I have just designed a backpack that weighs in at 7 oz and is 3300 ci. The production model would be heavier. I want to start making sleeping bags and quilts also. And of course tarps would be sold too. My main gimick I suppose you would say is that I will offer everything in size small. Not too many companies offer that yet. I am not going to do it to make bank though. I would be happy making $50k/yr total as long as I was my own boss. I don't want any of my backpacks to cost over $100, and my sleeping bags I want to cost $200 for down. Tarps should cost about $80-$100. But, I am still in the planning and development stage. Do you have any suggestions for me.
Oh by the way I will sell do it yourself kits. And I will have all designs posted so that people can make their own. I am a firm believer in making your own, but some people don't have the confidence. In that case they can buy it already made. So what do you think?

[SGT Rock]

I am looking into going into business myself. I have just designed a backpack that weighs in at 7 oz and is 3300 ci. The production model would be heavier. I want to start making sleeping bags and quilts also. And of course tarps would be sold too. My main gimick I suppose you would say is that I will offer everything in size small. Not too many companies offer that yet. I am not going to do it to make bank though. I would be happy making $50k/yr total as long as I was my own boss. I don't want any of my backpacks to cost over $100, and my sleeping bags I want to cost $200 for down. Tarps should cost about $80-$100. But, I am still in the planning and development stage. Do you have any suggestions for me.
Oh by the way I will sell do it yourself kits. And I will have all designs posted so that people can make their own. I am a firm believer in making your own, but some people don't have the confidence. In that case they can buy it already made. So what do you think?

I would go ahead and try it if I were you. Get yourself a web presence and see what happens.

I also agree about the DIY kits. I put all the instructions for my stoves on the Internet and tell people how to locate the parts or sell parts for the stoves.

I don't know how much market there is, but do like I have and post a request for feedback from the Whiteblaze members and ask them to be totally honest. As for me, I don't see a need for small sized gear, I'm an averaged sized male.

[erichlf]

I would go ahead and try it if I were you. Get yourself a web presence and see what happens.

I also agree about the DIY kits. I put all the instructions for my stoves on the Internet and tell people how to locate the parts or sell parts for the stoves.

I don't know how much market there is, but do like I have and post a request for feedback from the Whiteblaze members and ask them to be totally honest. As for me, I don't see a need for small sized gear, I'm an averaged sized male.

I am 5'7", so of course I will have small sized gear. All the original designs would come from my size and then I would size up.

Thanks for the suggestions. I still have some more work on designing to do before I start polling. I think the first thing I will sell is just the back pack. I have to start some where, and it is better to start small rather than big.

[fiddlehead]

I am looking into going into business myself. I have just designed a backpack that weighs in at 7 oz and is 3300 ci. The production model would be heavier. I want to start making sleeping bags and quilts also. And of course tarps would be sold too. My main gimick I suppose you would say is that I will offer everything in size small. Not too many companies offer that yet. I am not going to do it to make bank though. I would be happy making $50k/yr total as long as I was my own boss. I don't want any of my backpacks to cost over $100, and my sleeping bags I want to cost $200 for down. Tarps should cost about $80-$100. But, I am still in the planning and development stage. Do you have any suggestions for me.
Oh by the way I will sell do it yourself kits. And I will have all designs posted so that people can make their own. I am a firm believer in making your own, but some people don't have the confidence. In that case they can buy it already made. So what do you think?

I think its a great thing for hikers to make their own gear. If you can, try to see Lynn Wheldon's video on lightweight backpacking. It is trying to tell hikers to open up their minds to this. I have an idea for you for your sleeping bag: (i have a friend who made one and it was awesome) make a down coat with a zipper on the bottom perimeter, then make a bottom half of a sleeping bag that zips into the top part (coat) it doubles as a bag and a coat! He would fold the arms inside for maximum warmth or leave the arms in the sleeves if needed for cooking or reading or whatever. I can sew but he said working with down created some huge problems (mostly the mess) so i think this is above my abilities but i think it would be definitely something that would sell. I don't remember exactly but think he rated his bag/coat at 10 degrees and it weighed about 2 1/2 lbs. (but he didn't need to bring anything heavier than a 100 wt. fleece top for warm clothing.
If you make one, i'd be interested (perhaps could help you sell it too) but would need more sizes than just small. (i have a company that sells lightweight gear: adventurelite.com and theunderwearguys.com ) good luck.