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  1. #61
    Garlic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odd Man Out View Post
    ...Did you consider convertible pants?
    I've tried them. I find the leg zippers uncomfortable and I don't like fiddling with the conversion. I have this fear of losing one or both trouser legs (happened to a buddy). I don't like to carry or use sunscreen or repellent, so I just prefer the long trousers.
    "Throw a loaf of bread and a pound of tea in an old sack and jump over the back fence." John Muir on expedition planning

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowleopard View Post
    It is likely true that most medications are stable and are fine after the expiration date. But this cannot be true of all. Oxidation and other chemical reactions will occur over time. It seems likely that out of all the chemicals that are used medically, some of the degradation products will be toxic.

    The following paper's abstract states that doxycycline tablets degrade thermally at 25C in 5.26 years.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17988452

    SL, thanks, this is helpful information.

    Interesting that it shows over 5 years for degradation.
    Part of my point here is I would wonder how potent is would be at say 8 years, or beyond.
    For instance if degrades at 2% per year, that's slow enough for me to keep it for many years.
    (Especially stocking it for emergency use.)

    I'll have more to add about Doxycycline soon.

  3. #63
    Registered User ChinMusic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winds View Post
    I'll have more to add about Doxycycline soon.
    I just can't wait for your sourcing.............
    Fear ridges that are depicted as flat lines on a profile map.

  4. #64
    Registered User Wise Old Owl's Avatar
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    Chin why bother.... there's always the Ignore button.... its easy...
    Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    Woo

  5. #65
    Registered User ChinMusic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl View Post
    Chin why bother.... there's always the Ignore button.... its easy...
    Nah, the guy has some smarts, just maybe not as much as he thinks. I'm sure he will come up with some "expert" that disagrees with my multiple sources. I've gotten my point across. The readers now know not to mess with expired Doxy, or, if they chose, are now at least more informed. I just wasn't going to let "expired Doxy is fine" go unchallenged. This is MY field and I felt I owed it to our members.

    Maybe a computer question will come up, something he is more suited for.
    Fear ridges that are depicted as flat lines on a profile map.

  6. #66
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    If I have a forte, it's research.
    That crosses many disciplines.

    What is your field Chin?

    Do you realize that you gave THIS reference?? (and you tried to point out what they made fun of - which leads me to believe you don't wish to read to understand.) You clearly didn't read this and it was barely 2 screens long.
    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...drugs-kill-you

    Which Stated:

    But you don’t see anyone pushing for expiration date reform. Why not? No doubt because of the same combination of greed and excessive caution that drives up all healthcare costs: (1) The drug companies potentially could forego billions of dollars in lost sales; (2) the amount individual consumers could save is relatively trifling; and (3) there’s a remote but nonzero chance somebody relying on defunct drugs could die.

    This last belief is based partly on a 1963 study claiming expired tetracycline had caused kidney damage. But that contention has been questioned, and in any case the problematic formulation of tetracycline is no longer made.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have written Bristol-Myers Squibb, PAR Pharmaceuticals and others to get a clarification on this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxycycline
    Expired tetracyclines or tetracyclines allowed to stand at a pH less than 2 are reported to be nephrotoxic due to the formation of a degradation product, anhydro-4-epitetracycline causing Fanconi syndrome. In the case of doxycycline, the absence of a hydroxyl group in C-6 prevents the formation of the nephrotoxic compound. Nevertheless, tetracyclines and doxycycline itself have to be taken with precaution in patients with kidney injury, as they can worsen azotemia due to catabolic effects.

    Which clearly states Doxycycline does NOT have the compounds necessary to allow the medication to degrade into anything dangerous after it's expiration date.

    While you're foolishly insulting me, and scaring folks with your great knowledge - I will get to the bottom of this.

    Interesting you had NO come back with Snowleopard's found research stating that Doxycycline is NORMAL for at least 5 years.
    Nothing to say about that eh?

    You keep mentioning "smart guy" insults?? Only you have a complex here.

    I am trying to understand what the truth is. I'll figure out Doxycycline first as it pertains to hikers. But now I am curious about Tetracycline (the drug, not the antibiotic group) as well.

  7. #67
    Registered User ChinMusic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winds View Post
    Do you realize that you gave THIS reference?? (and you tried to point out what they made fun of - which leads me to believe you don't wish to read to understand.) You clearly didn't read this and it was barely 2 screens long.
    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...drugs-kill-you

    Which Stated:

    But you don’t see anyone pushing for expiration date reform. Why not? No doubt because of the same combination of greed and excessive caution that drives up all healthcare costs: (1) The drug companies potentially could forego billions of dollars in lost sales; (2) the amount individual consumers could save is relatively trifling; and (3) there’s a remote but nonzero chance somebody relying on defunct drugs could die.

    This last belief is based partly on a 1963 study claiming expired tetracycline had caused kidney damage. But that contention has been questioned, and in any case the problematic formulation of tetracycline is no longer made.
    Uhhhh, yes I did. I intentionally brought in sites that promote expired meds and even THEY have concerns over Doxy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Winds View Post
    I am trying to understand what the truth is.
    I hope this is true, but right now I do not believe it. I think you are a stubborn man that will find a fig-leaf of a source to "prove" your point.

    Again, I have sourced multiple reputable sites. That is not good enough for you, I GET IT.
    Fear ridges that are depicted as flat lines on a profile map.

  8. #68
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    I didn't say what I did about expired medications out of the blue.
    So no, I don't trust drug sites to give me / anyone the straight story on the bottom line.

    Did you read where the US government currently has the CDC and FDA to simply re-label their meds with limited testing and just push the expiration date out further?? They claim to have saved over a billion dollars doing this. If the medication is still good, why not?!

    However, it's NOT good for you or I to keep Vit D, penicillin, or Flintstones Chewables past ONE(1) year?? Just go buy more right!?

    SO MANY can't afford health insurance and have a great difficulty paying for ever expanding medicine costs.
    Even I would have saved thousands over the decades if I knew then what they aren't telling us now.

    So NO, it's NOT good enough for me until I understand what the truth is.
    IF I can keep my Doxycycline for more than 5 years and trust it, that is a great thing!

  9. #69
    Registered User ChinMusic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winds View Post
    Did you read where the US government currently has the CDC and FDA to simply re-label their meds with limited testing and just push the expiration date out further?? They claim to have saved over a billion dollars doing this. If the medication is still good, why not?!
    I have no problem with retesting. The issue is a tetracycline. This has been known to have degradation issues for over a generation. MAJOR sources simply do not put faith in those that claim Doxy beyond its date is safe. YOU think that is because they are greedy corporations out to screw the suckers. I believe they have the public safety at heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winds View Post
    SO MANY can't afford health insurance and have a great difficulty paying for ever expanding medicine costs.
    Even I would have saved thousands over the decades if I knew then what they aren't telling us now.
    My issue in this thread are the tetracyclines and specifically Doxy, as it is related to this thread. I have made no complaints about other meds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winds View Post
    So NO, it's NOT good enough for me until I understand what the truth is.
    IF I can keep my Doxycycline for more than 5 years and trust it, that is a great thing!
    You are over-reading the "5-year" information. No where in that piece, no where in ANY study, is there a number on how much of degraded Tetra causes kidney issues. You will NEVER have a double-blind study on this.........NEVER. Not even in Haiti.

    I understand that it is not good enough..........FOR YOU.

    PLEASE, live YOUR life as you wish, just don't come on here as some expert telling others something that goes against current knowledge.
    Fear ridges that are depicted as flat lines on a profile map.

  10. #70
    Registered User ChinMusic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winds View Post
    YOU have a problem that I don't accept your regurgitating information which looks to be incorrect and fostering scare tactics.
    I have no problem whatsoever with you not accepting the sources I have presented. That is YOUR problem.

    I DO have a problem of you making "statements of fact" that contradict the reputable sources.

    Do you really not understand the difference?

    I have made no statements in this thead that are not backed up with reputable sourcing. A high school baseball coach could have posted the same information.
    Fear ridges that are depicted as flat lines on a profile map.

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