ATC takes stance on Wind turbines: no stance

[Drum Stick]

Thank scientists for science RocksnRoots. I am pleased to hear of the new hydrogen separation method. How long before this process is feasible? If we do use nuclear power for the process I would imagine that the reactor would be in a highly guarded area, like in an area 51.

I agree that if massive investment were made in solar PV that it would accelerate its performance, drive down the price, and accelerate solar PV use... and someday it will happen. But with so many other energy sources poised to rock right now solar PV is on a slow boat.
Drum Stick

[weary]

.....I agree that if massive investment were made in solar PV that it would accelerate its performance, drive down the price, and accelerate solar PV use... and someday it will happen. But with so many other energy sources poised to rock right now solar PV is on a slow boat.
Drum Stick

That's true in this country and western Europe. The question is whether this is a product of technology or government subsidies.

Wind also requires a grid for economic efficiency. At least that is the contention of an alternative energy engineer/entrepeneur MATC consulted when we were deciding what stand to take on Redington. For the third world, where 2 billion people live, PV is the electricity of choice.

A grid, of course, helps pv also. Our consultant used to sell both pvs and home wind system. He now does only PVs and except for house lots a long ways from the nearest utility pole, most sell day time surplus to the utility and draw on the utility at night -- saving a massive battery investment.

His claim is that except for the surplus of electricy in Maine which keeps prices moderate, PV would be approaching a break even point, even along the foggy coast of Maine.

At one point Maine got half its energy from alternative sources -- mostly biomass and hydropower. The percentage slumped as oil prices stabilized and natural gas stations came on line. Dams have been removed and biomass shut down.

It's inching back up again now, with or without wind.

Weary

[Drum Stick]

That is interesting information Weary.

One point about residential wind turbines is that performance suffers from ground air flow resistance. In order to eliminate the affects from ground resistance a turbine must be mounted high above the ground or water. Residential turbines can be mounted at a maximum height of 30-feet (in Maine anyway).
Drum Stick

[Drum Stick]

But I don't understand the claim that PV is at the break even point, even along the foggy coast of Maine...?

With such a large initial PV investment... And such a tiny electric bill that I get from Central Maine Power ( I conserve)... heck I could take the PV investment money, invest it into a fund, and it would pay for my electric bill. And no worries about my panels or keeping them snow, ice, pollen, bird dropping, and sap free etc.

Weary, are you at all familiar with purchasing green power in Maine? I just found out about this and I am considering it.
Drum Stick

[weary]

But I don't understand the claim that PV is at the break even point, even along the foggy coast of Maine...?

With such a large initial PV investment... And such a tiny electric bill that I get from Central Maine Power ( I conserve)... heck I could take the PV investment money, invest it into a fund, and it would pay for my electric bill. And no worries about my panels or keeping them snow, ice, pollen, bird dropping, and sap free etc.

Weary, are you at all familiar with purchasing green power in Maine? I just found out about this and I am considering it.
Drum Stick

I suspect the PV seller's claim is exaggerated. He is in the business of selling the things. The problem with green power is that it probably will include Redington, which isn't really "green."

But I don't dispute your economic analysis. I designed my house 30 years ago to take advantage of solar energy. Everytime I've done the analysis solar has been much more expensive than fossils. I don't mind a bit of a green premium.

But I'd rather donate any surplus cash I have to my two land trusts, than to the nebulous benefits of active solar. Passive solar is virtually free. Wood, my exclusive home heating fuel for 20 years saved considerable money, and is as solar as anything. Wood remains an important part of my energy mix, but it is no longer the only fuel. Age, the care of an invalid inlaw, a less than healthy wife, and the need for expensive repairs on my wood boiler prompted the change.

BTW did my book arrive?

Weary

[Drum Stick]

No Weary your book did not arrive on my doorstep today, I suspect tomorrow then. Excellent! I really look forward to reading it, and seeing how much has not changed when it comes to conservation. Thank you very much and I will respond in kind.

So you stoked a wood boiler for twenty years, sweet. The boiler was probably getting tired anyway. Is the boiler located in your basement or do you have a small shed outside? I really wanted to get an HS-Tarm wood gasification boiler but the whole system was just too expensive for me. Now of course there are pellet boilers which are much more convenient to operate but the system is still a bit pricey for me. If I ever move on to my AT hostel / retirement dream, I will surely be utilising a bio-mass boiler to make plenty of hot water to cut the hiker funk (odor).
Drum Stick

[Rocks 'n Roots]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"> </TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap> </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>And it appears as if Washington state is leading the way with implementing performance-based criteria!!

The state of Cali could stand to learn s'mthin' from Washington state. At least there's proposed legislation on the docket for this consideration in the proposed SB1 initiative.

Washington State Passes Progressive Renewable Energy Legislation

New Germany-style Production Credit Should Spur Regional Clean Energy Market
[snip]
The law establishes a renewable energy "feed-in" production incentive, the first such application of this approach in a U.S. state. Homes and businesses with solar PV and wind power systems would earn a credit of 15 cents per kWh of electricity generated by their renewable energy systems up to $2000 annually -- roughly tailored to the yearly market output of a typical 3.5 kW PV system.

In addition to the feed-in credit, the bill is progressive because it combines economic multipliers to increase the system owner's credit if the project's components are manufactured in Washington. This can raise the 15 cent per kWh credit up to as much as 54 cents and this rate would be available for a fixed 10 year period beginning July 1, 2005.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Drum Stick]

That ought to be interesting in Washington state, how much sun do they get?. I have seen the solar farms in Germany but I have no idea what their typical weather is either? You know RocknRoots if I could invest into panels that were mounted in an AZ solarfarm for instance, it might make sense performance wise.

www.solarwall.com
I think that is the URL (without checking), if not I will post the correct one after. Anyway it is interesing how much the payback period varies from site to site. These folks say something like 20+ yrs. But what struck me was that this sight says, what was it...? 500 BTU's of thermal energy per square meter. And I wonder what the effect of acres upon acres of (dark) panels would be. Alaska is warming up because (1) the exposed dark earth is absorbing heat and (2) smog is not allowing the heat to radiate out from the earth. See where I am going.

I don't know why you are hanging on to solar PV RocksnRoots when biomass is 'solar power', and stored solar power. Yah there was a day when I was hot on solar PV too. To each their own.
Drum Stick

[Drum Stick]

Weary,
I speed read your energy conservation book in a few hours. Of course some of the material was so outdated that I skimmed right over it, like caulking windows. The book was a nice read though. Too Funny! I saw your real name and I said "Weary did not write this", then it occurred to me that you had a 'real name' Ha!

I did laugh too over the bumper sticker comment "If you are cold and hungry and out of work eat an environmentalist" Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

The Hill Cordwood Boiler! So that was the state-of-the-art biomass burner in 1981... That was interesting that you made a concrete hot water tank, and that if you had to do it all over again that you would make the tank 4,000 gallon capacity. A couple of years back the 1,250 gallon tank that HS-Tarm offered was selling for $1,750... NOT. I considered purchasing an above ground swimming pool and using that (in my basement), much cheaper. Funny how in 1981 you were talking about compressed wood products (briquets and pellets), and you were talking about biomass plantations, sounds familiar. I really like the look of the lean-to passive solar room because I have a perfect wall for one.. only I don't want my property taxes to go up any more. I was on the leading edge of massh_les (ha ha ha!) migrating to Maine, and since then my taxes have shot way up because now Wells is jammed with them.

"wood burners are like fisherman" always under estimating how much wood they burn. How true! When I said that I burned 5-tons of pellets per year, I was careful not to under estimate. I am not trying to get anyone into an investment that they will hate me for. www.pelletstove.com

I like the reference to the "spinning washing machine bowl / friction heater" ha ha ha! It is funny because I have a brother who is not very technical and he came up with the idea that we could 'pump' water up into a tower and generate hydroelectricity :-) On the other hand my bro owns a flooring company and makes ten times what I make easy.

So the state made you move your house so they could put a road thru your living room, ah sweet immenent domain. Part of my family actually stepped of the Mayflower and settled in the Portmouth NH area. The fam put the house up on a nice hill, then the state grabbed it for a water tower, then they grabbed a big chunk of the farm and converted it into Pease Airforce base. Nice! That is progress.

Nice book Weary and Thank you for the articles. The next time I have the checkbook out myfriend.
Drum Stick

[Rocks 'n Roots]

That ought to be interesting in Washington state, how much sun do they get?. I have seen the solar farms in Germany but I have no idea what their typical weather is either?

They get 3 or more average insolation hours per year. Arizona gets over 5. Eastern Washington is rain shadowed by the Cascades, so it probably has better solar values. I looked up German insolation values on Google. In the south the mountain areas are pretty good in the summer with surprisingly high values. However the winter is piss poor with only a 1 rating in those months. The Germans, by the way, have flown a solar powered light aircraft.

what the effect of acres upon acres of (dark) panels would be. Alaska is warming up because (1) the exposed dark earth is absorbing heat and (2) smog is not allowing the heat to radiate out from the earth. See where I am going.

I see where you are going - up to the Trail with pylons.

What you have failed to consider is the offsetting value of the CO2 and pollution cutting panels. I won't attempt the science, but I think the panels themselves would have a mild thermal absorption value similar to vegetation. I'm not 100% sure but physics probably dictates that the electricity carried off by the system absorbs and redirects heat that would have been reflected back. But don't quote me on that, it's a guess.

I don't know why
you are hanging on to solar PV RocksnRoots when biomass is 'solar power', and stored solar power. Yah there was a day when I was hot on solar PV too. To each their own.

Turn our gold rush oriented society onto windmills or biomass and they'll stampede our forests into cornfields and strew our ridges with nasty windmill towers and lighted blades...