And thank God I'm a country boy.Originally Posted by Skidsteer
Skids
Insanity: Asking about inseams over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)
The Sawyer "point one" filters filter to 0.1 micrometers and filter bacteria.
The Sawyer "point zero two" filters filter to 0.02 micrometers and also filter viruses.
Giardia is a protozoan (neither bacteria nor virus) and will be filtered at a cutoff larger than either of these.
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I am not young enough to know everything.
The Schlimmer Giardia Paper
It's hard for me to imagine anyone who has taken a thorough rational look at the "Myth-Buster" paper taking it seriously. For example he relies heavily on 1984 numbers in a single place, the high Sierra. The most recent and largest survey in the Sierra found this: [in places] bacterial contamination was easily high enough to sicken hikers with Giardia, E. coli and other diseases He uses 20 cysts as the "infectious dose" the amount required to make you sick. The FDA says it's one cyst. It's all voodoo math anyway because tests have found water sources loaded with giardia. And the EPA says (Giardia) Cysts have been found all months of the year in surface waters from the Arctic to the tropics in even the most pristine of surface waters
He says With such self-diagnosis I usually ask, "So, your doctor told you you had giardiasis?" The answer invariably is, "No… I mean, I didn’t get tested –but I’m sure it was Giardia!" People ARE getting tested, myself for example, and the people in this poll, 10% of whom (everyone, not just giardia victims) had had giardiasis confirmed by lab tests.
Schlimmer repeatedly cites Rockwell and Welch, well-known skeptics. I have, I believe, refuted their cited papers. Roland Mueser wrote a great book. His cited water study however has been superceded by a larger and better study already linked to in an earlier post that concluded that both water treatment and hygiene are important.
He says "lab rats don't lie" and then goes on to list numerous hikers and the amounts of untreated water they'd drank without getting sick. Cherry-picked hikers. I could easily list pages of backpackers who've drank untreated water and got giardiasis. He changed the title of his paper which originally had the phrase How Hearsay and Anecdotal Evidence has Created a False Industry Standard It was repeatedly pointed out to him that he included a full page of hearsay and anecdotal evidence.
Anyone taking the time to read through this entire discussion of the Schlimmer paper is bound to learn something. There's theory and then there's reality.
I don't gamble and always treat. Would rather play craps in Vegas than on the trail.
"Fish Camp Woman.... Baby, I like the way you smell"
- Unknown Hinson
I have suspected for some time that many of the suspected GI illnesses are not giardia, but from factors related to a lack of basic hygene. I have seen way to many hikers not hand washing/sanitizing after using the privy and go right back into preparing their food. I agree with the one pot method and its function to limit bacterial growth via boiling water meals. Further making of boiling water for tea or coffee after a meal makes the function of meal and disinfection even better.
Here is another poll.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...hlight=giardia
Not very scientific, but...
Been there. Dug 5 catholes in one morning twice. Now I always filter or treat.
Handlebar
GA-ME 06; PCT 08; CDT 10,11,12; ALT 11; MSPA 12; CT 13; Sheltowee 14; AZT 14, 15; LT 15;FT 16;NCT-NY&PA 16; GET 17-18
Thanks for that. Interesting. More scientific than purely anecdotal evidence, no doubt. There are so many things that can skew the interpretation of results. For example, the people most susceptible to stomach ailments are probably the most likely to treat their water in some way. So it's self-selecting. An analogy I've made is that eyeglass wearers often have no better vision than those that don't wear glasses. One could conclude that eyeglasses don't improve vision based on that alone.
Three things....
1 good thread and read!
2 Once you get it, the second time is it not so bad? ( from memory)
3. [email protected] Guys who have that shingle have to pump out critical papers all the time.
Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.
Woo
I have never treated water but I am selective where I drink from. It has worked for the past 38 years. This summer at the insistence of my wife and son we bought the UV lightbulb thingy...and treated during our Long Trail hike, but at some point we ran out of batteries a basically stopped treating for the last 4 days. Either way. No one got sick. I do not advocate this but just throwing it to the mix in this discussion.
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Let me go
I usually treat, normally filter. But it depends on the source. I believe many people do have a built up resistance to pests in the water depending on their background. Vaccines are inert forms of the virus itself to let your system build up antibodies to them. I don't believe everyone that thinks they got giardia on the trail was it as opposed to some other GI illness, but have known several hikers that have had it. Years ago two towns that get water from AT watersheds had outbreaks of giardia in municipal water sources. Pittsfield, MA & Berlin, NH.
The AT normally you can pic & choose water sources, but when you hit other areas when your first water source in 20 miles has cows wading in their own excrement you come to love your treatment choice.
Is this speculation on your part? I do not recall seeing any evidence which even suggests this is a possibility. If your attempt is to debunk a paper by pointing out potential flaws, one should be very careful to provide evidence and not simply speculation. I am not convinced that your debunking has provided any real evidence that the compilation of sources previously written by many is truly flawed. Yes, you have provided for the possibility, but your arguments are less than compelling. Here is something to chew on, I contacted a published water quality researcher at Paul Smiths college in the Adirondacks to inquire about testing the backcountry water for biological contamination (since the "experts" claim the percentage is contaminated. This researcher was not aware of any studies that have ever been done on the Adirondack backcountry water in regards to biological contamination, specifically giardia, crypto, etc... Thus, your usage ofthe the experts who state that ___% of the water is contaminated are not speaking with data based authority, at least for backcountry water. That said, I will never tell someone how they should deal with their water procurement.
i grew up on city water. i never treated or filtered water from georgia to maine. 5 AT completions plus 6000 "other' miles. never got sick. i drank from beaver ponds even. i just added grape kool-aid to make it taste better. "getting" giardia is more hype than anything
Giardia Evidence
russb: Is this speculation on your part? I do not recall seeing any evidence which even suggests this is a possibility.
You are referring to this line in my comments: "For example, the people most susceptible to stomach ailments are probably the most likely to treat their water in some way. So it's self-selecting."
First of all, that's not part of my rebuttal of the paper. It is simply an educated guess stated on this forum based on common sense and statements like this from a single thread on the topic These are two quotes. There are more.
After that experience I never want to go through it again and will always treat or filter the water...I would NEVER think about drinking untreated water from any unknown source. The consequences just arn't worth it
Yeah, so the people saying they wouldn't filter their water and ignore the warnings from the "conspiring communist" government have NEVER had a real case of Giardia. I guarantee you that. If you have had it, (See my earlier post) you wouldn't care if there was a 1 in 10,000 chance of getting it. Especially, when it is so easy to filter your water.
russb: I am not convinced that your debunking has provided any real evidence that the compilation of sources previously written by many is truly flawed.
Actually, I did. To debate this seriously you need to give some examples of where my reasoning and research is in error.
russb: Thus, your usage of the the experts who state that ___% of the water is contaminated are not speaking with data based authority, at least for backcountry water
So you say that that guy said that he was unaware of any studies and from that you draw a scientific conclusion? The EPA says (Giardia) Cysts have been found all months of the year in surface waters from the Arctic to the tropics in even the most pristine of surface waters Even in the Rockwell paper he admitted there was giardia in about 1/3 of the water sources in the study he sourced. Sorry, but it's clearly data based.
What took you so long lone wolf? You wouldn't think it's hype if you got a bad case, I guarantee you that. I cited two scientific papers that showed many people got giardiasis on their first trip out. I know lots of old timers who've never gotten it at all. Lots of them that don't think they have it are asymptomatic carriers.
I don't care if people treat their water or not. I do care if they have enough facts to make a rational evalutation of the potential risks and consequences.
No doubt true, but as anecdotal evidence from one person not especially relevant to risk analysis. The research to find out real risk wouldn't be especially complicated, but probably costly in time, effort and lab tests. Maybe this is the "college credit for hiking" opportunity people are looking for.
"It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss
I am not so sure.Lone Wolf took samples from well over 1000 different water sources over the miles he has walked. Seems to me that is a statistically valid sample size.Depends what the hypothesis is, I suppose.Here is a thought to ponder. Plenty of people have and will continue to report exactly what water source have them giardiasis. Has anyone ever shared with the larger community what failure of basic hygiene made them sick? I can't remember one. Why is that?
Mr. Colter, I am not debating, only letting you know that I find your self-proclaimed debunking quite lacking. Head to head, the papers to which you are attempting to refute are more compelling than your arguments.
If x% of people do not show symptoms of Giardia and Lone Wolf is part of that group then his not showing symptoms from 10 or 10000 water sources would not be reason to state that the water sources are free of Giardia.
Usually it's hand washing that causes the largest percentage of bacterial/viral/cyst/parasite illness. Next would be drinking water.
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