Group Plans to Sue GSMNP Over Fees

[swjohnsey]

Who's gonna collect this tax? I didn't see more than a ranger or two in 5 1/2 months.

[Montana AT05]

It strikes me as somewhat juvenile that some people get so up in arms over token fees like this. The park systems are simply trying to offset costs in making sure that the millions of visitors per year, including said juveniles, don't destroy the environment within the parks and keep it enjoyable for all. I am constantly amazed at how hikers, especially thru hikers, openly discuss what they believe is an infringement on their "right" to camp anywhere they please in the White Mountains National Forest, which isn't a park, including above tree line, right along the trail and streams, or directly next to the huts. Without restrictions, enforcement, and the fees required to carry this out, the WMNF would be destroyed in a couple of years and many would be injured or would die. They either just don't get it, or just don't care once they've passed thru.

What's juvenile is talking about off-setting costs without first cutting costs. This is a money grab. Then someone will claim that the new Govt jobs created to enforce and process this fee (jobs and processes and facility use that will be far in excess of the fees collected) is somehow job creation. Adding a fee won't off-set anything and it won't prevent anything. All it will do is seed the ground for further fees. And the increased costs I summarized earlier will be the reasoning for more fees or higher fees. Yea Govt!

[Rasty]

It strikes me as somewhat juvenile that some people get so up in arms over token fees like this. The park systems are simply trying to offset costs in making sure that the millions of visitors per year, including said juveniles, don't destroy the environment within the parks and keep it enjoyable for all. I am constantly amazed at how hikers, especially thru hikers, openly discuss what they believe is an infringement on their "right" to camp anywhere they please in the White Mountains National Forest, which isn't a park, including above tree line, right along the trail and streams, or directly next to the huts. Without restrictions, enforcement, and the fees required to carry this out, the WMNF would be destroyed in a couple of years and many would be injured or would die. They either just don't get it, or just don't care once they've passed thru.

What's juvenile is talking about off-setting costs without first cutting costs. This is a money grab. Then someone will claim that the new Govt jobs created to enforce and process this fee (jobs and processes and facility use that will be far in excess of the fees collected) is somehow job creation. Adding a fee won't off-set anything and it won't prevent anything. All it will do is seed the ground for further fees. And the increased costs I summarized earlier will be the reasoning for more fees or higher fees. Yea Govt!

+1............

[gollwoods]

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/whyfree.htm by law they cannot charge a fee to enter the park.

[Heald]

It strikes me as somewhat juvenile that some people get so up in arms over token fees like this. The park systems are simply trying to offset costs in making sure that the millions of visitors per year, including said juveniles, don't destroy the environment within the parks and keep it enjoyable for all. I am constantly amazed at how hikers, especially thru hikers, openly discuss what they believe is an infringement on their "right" to camp anywhere they please in the White Mountains National Forest, which isn't a park, including above tree line, right along the trail and streams, or directly next to the huts. Without restrictions, enforcement, and the fees required to carry this out, the WMNF would be destroyed in a couple of years and many would be injured or would die. They either just don't get it, or just don't care once they've passed thru.

Get real dude. I'd rather have a "destroyed" NF any day (which is your over fantasized opinion) than live under the kind of hardcore governmental rule of law you get a woody thinking about. You assume to much. You assume the government deserves us to get behind every and anything they do period. Like sheep we should just fall in. Just because they say so. Wake up.

[MuddyWaters]

I think it may help to reduce the number or no-show reservations in the backcountry shelters. At the Grand Canyon you pay when you submit permit application, same thing here. Less frivolous unused reservations would make the system better for everyone. Very common for shelters to supposed to be full, and are not even halfway. Both by no-shows and people dropping out. Make people pay, then refund them IF they cancel within ~ 24 hrs, would help a bit I think.

[ken209]

The company they are going to use charges 10.00 to make a reservation, 10.00 to cancel a reservation.

[moytoy]

The company they are going to use charges 10.00 to make a reservation, 10.00 to cancel a reservation.

Where did you get that information? I have not seen anything that corroberates that information.

[Drybones]

The company they are going to use charges 10.00 to make a reservation, 10.00 to cancel a reservation.

My four letter word vocabulary is too limited to respond to this post in an appropriate manner.

[swjohnsey]

Another government make work program. A solution where no problem exists.

[HooKooDooKu]

Seriously? It's 4.00! How much money is being wasted in the courts to sue over 4.00 freaking dollars.

The problem (for me) is that it is NOT JUST $4.00. I've recently started taking my son's into the back country. That $4 fee just turned into $12. That's only $2 less than the basic fee for a FRONT country campsite. Yet in the back country, the only "amenity" I get (compared to those at a front country camp site) is a bear cable. Pretty d@#% expensive cable.

Now if they would instead do something along the lines of $4 per tent (or $2 per person at shelters), then the fee would seem to be a bit more reasonable.

[Tipi Walter]

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/whyfree.htm by law they cannot charge a fee to enter the park.

So just get the state legislature to change it. Stump simple.

[swjohnsey]

The income tax started out as only 1% and only on the rich.

[Tipi Walter]

It strikes me as somewhat juvenile that some people get so up in arms over token fees like this. The park systems are simply trying to offset costs in making sure that the millions of visitors per year, including said juveniles, don't destroy the environment within the parks and keep it enjoyable for all. I am constantly amazed at how hikers, especially thru hikers, openly discuss what they believe is an infringement on their "right" to camp anywhere they please in the White Mountains National Forest, which isn't a park, including above tree line, right along the trail and streams, or directly next to the huts. Without restrictions, enforcement, and the fees required to carry this out, the WMNF would be destroyed in a couple of years and many would be injured or would die. They either just don't get it, or just don't care once they've passed thru.

The Whites NF honchos probably could care less about the environment---otherwise they would have closed the Mt Washington cog railroad years ago and shut down the highway leading to the top by now. The GSMNP is flailing at newts while kimodo dragons roam nearby. They focus and charge overnight backpackers while at the same time allow free unlimited motor vehicle access and have the worst air pollution in the country. If backpackers must be charged cash money then also should every car entering the Park be charged, a $20 fee sounds reasonable.

[swjohnsey]

Doya think the AMC got to be worth more than $120,000,000 by lettin' folks do stuff for free?

[hikerboy57]

Doya think the AMC got to be worth more than $120,000,000 by lettin' folks do stuff for free?

why dont we just rewind the entire thread and replay it?
havent these "arguments" been cited already?

[Tipi Walter]

gee. backpacking is sooooooo expensive.
we spend thousands of dollars on gear and transportation to the trail, but we object to a fee that amounts to far less than a monthly cell phone bill.

Obviously you have never planned a 20 day backpacking trip in the Smokies. With the new fee setup my typical 20 day trip will cost at least $90 for fees and god knows how I'll know where I'l be on Day 14 of the trip beforehand to plan site reservations. It's an unworkable system. It doesn't account for rain delays, blizzards, lightning storms, zero days for illness, or high water crossings. Remember, every dang site must be reserved BEFOREHAND, an impossibility on a long trip. So the Park is off limits with this system.

[swjohnsey]

Obviously you have never planned a 20 day backpacking trip in the Smokies. With the new fee setup my typical 20 day trip will cost at least $90 for fees and god knows how I'll know where I'l be on Day 14 of the trip beforehand to plan site reservations. It's an unworkable system. It doesn't account for rain delays, blizzards, lightning storms, zero days for illness, or high water crossings. Remember, every dang site must be reserved BEFOREHAND, an impossibility on a long trip. So the Park is off limits with this system.

Viola! I think you have figured it out.

[hikerboy57]

Obviously you have never planned a 20 day backpacking trip in the Smokies. With the new fee setup my typical 20 day trip will cost at least $90 for fees and god knows how I'll know where I'l be on Day 14 of the trip beforehand to plan site reservations. It's an unworkable system. It doesn't account for rain delays, blizzards, lightning storms, zero days for illness, or high water crossings. Remember, every dang site must be reserved BEFOREHAND, an impossibility on a long trip. So the Park is off limits with this system.

its the equivalant of a one night stay at one of the huts, or a night at a moderately priced motel.
still a cheap vacation.
there are some logistical problems thru the whites for simalar reasons, and lets not forget baxter state park's reservation system.

[tdoczi]

Obviously you have never planned a 20 day backpacking trip in the Smokies. With the new fee setup my typical 20 day trip will cost at least $90 for fees and god knows how I'll know where I'l be on Day 14 of the trip beforehand to plan site reservations. It's an unworkable system. It doesn't account for rain delays, blizzards, lightning storms, zero days for illness, or high water crossings. Remember, every dang site must be reserved BEFOREHAND, an impossibility on a long trip. So the Park is off limits with this system.

and this makes the smokies different than most other national parks in what way exactly? ever tried to do any backcountry hiking in the grand canyon?