Thinking ultralight....

[FarmerChef]

Can't resist here. I remember as a boy scout hiking in a metal canteen (big round one in a green canvas holster with strap) as well as a boy scout standard issue metal mess kit including: pan, cup, plate, pot and lid, with mesh to help it dry faster. It weighs today about 1 pound. I don't wish an aluminum frying pan on anyone who doesn't know how to use it properly and as scouts we always had all kinds of stuff horribly stuck to it (think eggs with little oil in the pan, tee hee). My 30 degree bag weighed around 5 pounds (still have it) and my little tent weighed about the same with these horrible shock corded poles I had to try and convince to slide up into really long sleeves. Ok the tent wasn't that bad but I can still remember the heavy clanking of the tent pegs.

We also faithfully carried our Boy Scout manual and I have no idea how much that weighed. This wouldn't be so bad if I wasn't a wimpy 7th grader knee high to a grasshopper.

As a cub scout leader I'm trying to teach boys the skills they need to utilize whatever gear they choose to take in the future. No raw potatoes, overcooked chicken and burnt onions masquerading as foil dinners! LOL My mess kit now is a 2 and 4 quart pot (for a group of 5), plastic gladware bowls, plastic spoons, rubber spatula, wooden spoon (you break a lot of smaller spoons stirring a 4 quart pot full of rice). Ah how things have changed.

[Mags]

re: Sam H

Did you look at his web page?

The front page mentions STEAKS AND BEER!

Sure sounds all about the miles to me.

(I know Sam from over the years. Good guy..)

[RockDoc]

There is something called being on the "stupid side of light". I've been there a few times. Shaved my gear down to pure minimum. It was a delight to carry such a small load. On the second day of the Landmannalaugar hike in Iceland the storm hit. 40mph winds blowing heavy rain at 2degrees C. Had just a light raincoat, got drenched. Didn't have enough warm clothes. Dark approached. Passed a monument to an Israeli hiker who had died (in a similar storm, I was later told). Began shivering uncontrollably. Well, I (and 9 others) reached a hut and the caretaker nursed us back to full body temperature. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here.

[Tinker]

Thinking ultralight....

STOP IT!

[jeffmeh]

Yes, amen on the first point, well said, but you have the second one exactly backwards. Weight is the bane of freedom (on the trail). You can indeed go nicely lightweight and be totally equipped, even in winter and basically barely notice your pack's weight (well, for 3-4 day trips, at least). I could cite a zillion examples of what I mean, but to what point? "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig" (Robert A. Heinlein, bless his soul).

With all due respect, I think you are missing his point. He wants to be out in winter for 21 days without having to resupply, and his gear and consumables enable that, so for him weight is the price of freedom. Your preferences may be different, but that does not make him wrong. He also already made it clear that with different goals and preferences he would lighten up.

I'm really trying to get a productive conversation going without people talking past one another. It would be productive in my view to describe how you would pack for serious winter weather and 21 days with no resupply.

[Alligator]

The heavy talk has been moved to its own thread. This was the first post in the this thread

I must confess I have a problem with the word "ultralight" but we all kind of agree on what it means so it's a good placeholder word.

Something I've been noticing a lot lately that I never picked up on before is a difference in the way people who pack light think.

I think "Do I want to take this OR that?"

People who tend to carry a heavier pack think: "I'm going to take this AND that."

3 times I've noticed it in the last 24 hours. People taking windshirts AND rain jacket. Filters AND Aqua Mira, Neoair AND sleeping pad.

My mind just doesn't work that way. I just accept that I can't have everything I'd like to have - I'm going hiking, not furnishing an apartment - so I don't grieve not having a bunch of extras.

Big Note: I'm only talking about me. Not judging what anyone else carries - not even a little. This is just an observation I've made.

[Rasty]

I like the new system. But what about all the mid-weight hikers. Now we feel left out.

[Sarcasm the elf]

In deg C, zero is water freezing and 100 is water boiling.
In deg F, zero is the coldest day of the year and 100 is the hottest (or close to it where I live).
So deg F is not so weird or illogical as you might think.
Now lbs, gallons, oz, slugs, chains, drams, and furlongs...those are weird!

I never thought of it that way, thanks for posting. The zero to 100f temperature swing is about the normal annual range in Connecticut as well.

I am absolutely going to use this argument to give my Scottish and Australian hiking buddies a hard time

[OzJacko]

I never thought of it that way, thanks for posting. The zero to 100f temperature swing is about the normal annual range in Connecticut as well.

I am absolutely going to use this argument to give my Scottish and Australian hiking buddies a hard time

Won't make sense with me Elf.
Coldest day of the year around these parts (minimums not maximums) is about 35f.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Won't make sense with me Elf.
Coldest day of the year around these parts (minimums not maximums) is about 35f.

You're gonna enjoy hiking in New England in the fall next year.

[Wise Old Owl]

I agree with this 100%. ... He spends more time on the Internet buying newer, lighter gear than he does out in the field testing the kit he has and building his skills.

Welcome to our world....you have a free invitation to the cyber cafe!

[OzJacko]

You're gonna enjoy hiking in New England in the fall next year.

I'm expecting Georgia in late March to do that.
By New England I should be up for it.

[Mags]

I'm really trying to get a productive conversation going without people talking past one another. It would be productive in my view to describe how you would pack for serious winter weather and 21 days with no resupply.

I think if you did the base camp thing (exploring from a set point over the course of many days), it would not be as hard as you imagine. In Colorado, in certain areas, a gear sled is good option of hauling weight on skis or snowshoes, too.

Personally, I like covering distance vs basecamp so it is hard to find truly large tracts of wilderness that allows that kind of exploration in most (all?) areas of the lower 48 that I can think of personally.

Even a well known guide book author that TW would find more in align with his style of hiking (avg 7 mpd, except she goes trailless) exits for what she calls "
walk out resupplies" when hiking vs base camping. And these are in some remote areas. Certainly more remote than CO...never mind the Appalachians.

So, to do a 21 day trip with no resupply in the lower 48 calls for staying put most of the time if you don't want to hit anything resembling civilization.

More Walden Pond. Less like Evert Reuss.

[Tipi Walter]

So, to do a 21 day trip with no resupply in the lower 48 calls for staying put most of the time if you don't want to hit anything resembling civilization.

More Walden Pond. Less like Evert Reuss.

I'll probably get kicked off this thread for not being a 'bonafide ULer" but this comment is incorrect. There's a vast area south of the GSMNP from Calderwood Lake down thru Slickrock and Citico wilderness and into the Brushy Ridge backcountry and into the Snowbirds and Bald River and Upper Bald wilderness and across the State Line on the BMT down to Coker Creek and Hiwassee River to Reliance and beyond to Ocoee River and Big Frog and Cohutta wilderness which is full of trails and gives the long-term backpacker ample trails to hike without staying put most of the time.

There are loops upon loops and an intricate trail system which once learned can be explored with daily hiking and camping and enough of these trails to eat up a 21 day trip. Maybe not at 30 miles a day but perfect for those who are content with 7 to 10 miles a day and with no zero days except for blizzards.

[Mags]

There are loops upon loops and an intricate trail system which once learned can be explored with daily hiking and camping and enough of these trails to eat up a 21 day trip. Maybe not at 30 miles a day but perfect for those who are content with 7 to 10 miles a day and with no zero days except for blizzards.

Sorry Walter, I think you are off. If someone doing 5-7 MPD can't spend that much time the Wind River range (trails? What trails BTW??? ) with out going into town for resupply, it sure is heck not truly possible in your corner of the southern Apps. Read the links. Heck, I think you'd like the trip report. It is a good one of a person who does low mileage, hikes every day and is truly in a remote area. Gear is never discussed either. Don't know if the person is heavy, light or in between.

Your more of a base camper who moves a bit, and that's cool. But a bit different from hiking every day. Esp if you don't want to hit a road (the pesky civilization part).

The Wind River Range is more remote than anything in Colorado. Never mind the southern Apps with its ample trails.

[Tipi Walter]

Sorry Walter, I think you are off. If someone doing 5-7 MPD can't spend that much time the Wind River range (trails? What trails BTW??? ) with out going into town for resupply, it sure is heck not truly possible in your corner of the southern Apps. Read the links. Heck, I think you'd like the trip report. It is a good one of a person who does low mileage, hikes every day and is truly in a remote area.

Your more of a base camper who moves a bit, and that's cool. But a bit different from hiking every day. Esp if you don't want to hit a road (the pesky civilization part).

The Wind River Range is more remote than anything in Colorado. Never mind the southern Apps with its ample trails.

I know you remember your thruhike of the BMT. Do you remember all the dozens of sidetrails you passed from Hiway 129 south to Big Frog Mt and Dally Gap and Watson Gap south of the Cohuttas? These are the trails I'm talking about. There are 60 miles of trails in the Slickrock alone. 57 miles in the ajoining Citico wilderness. Big Frog has 35 miles and Cohutta has 95 miles and both are connected to the Citico/Slickrock by the 70 mile stretch of the BMT from Hiway 129 to the Cohuttas. Add up these numbers and you come to around 320 miles of trails in "my" backpacking woods. Divide this by 5 miles per day and you could spend 64 days backpacking this area without doing many repeat miles except to join loops.

I didn't even include the mileages in the Bald River/Upper Bald wilderness and the Brushy Ridge area. You'll cross roads of course but it's a great place to hump 50 lbs of food inside a big pack. Heck just doing the 70 miles of the BMT at 5 miles per day would eat up 14 days.

[skinewmexico]

Cool, Mags is gonna get banned for arguing UL in the UL forum.

[Chummin' for Bear]

One of the things I love about backpacking is that you can carry whatever you want as long as you are willing to carry it.

One of my favorite quotes is from SGT Rock;

"The more I carry the more I like camping, the less I carry the more I like hiking." When I started backpacking, I had a monster pack, 9 pound army mountain bag, 2 1/2 thermarest , 5 pound tent, heavy clothes, yada, yada, yada. The best thing I ever did was put everything into an excel spreadsheet and over time replaced heavy items with lighter items and learned what I could do without. Not saying this works for everyone, but I sure do enjoy backpacking a lot more. Sometimes, I realize I have been hiking for hours without even thinking about carrying a backpack. At one time, I never thougth that was possible.

Cheers to Mags and Tipi Walter who are both free to hike their own hike.

[Mags]

IYou'll cross roads of course but it's a great place to hump 50 lbs of food inside a big pack. He.

Not exactly remote. Esp if it involves trail and roads!

See above about Walden vs. Everett Ruess.

If I wanted to spend 21 days with continuous road crossings I'd through hike. Oh wait...that sounds familiar. Maybe TW secretly wants to thru-hike.

[Tipi Walter]

Not exactly remote. Esp if it involves trail and roads!

See above about Walden vs. Everett Ruess.

If I wanted to spend 21 days with continuous road crossings I'd through hike. Oh wait...that sounds familiar. Maybe TW secretly wants to thru-hike.

I didn't know the discussion was about remoteness. It's sort of hard to be remote in the lower 48 what with around 87,000 noisy jets flying overhead every day. As an aside, on my last 20 day trip I went the last 17 days without seeing a single backpacker. This happened in the Southeast, too.