Speaking of poo. Why is caching not LNT but burying poo is?
Now we're talking! I agree with you 100% The funny thing is that traditionally (like more than 10 minutes ago) poop was unburied and food cache's were a big part of every wilderness trip. I don't have any LNT issues with food Cache. As mentioned- as long as you clean up after yourself what's the biggie. Obviously you want to store your food so critters don't get at it- one of the reasons it's been banned/outlawed/poo-pooed- is because people didn't get that you may want to prevent wildlife from eating the food you depend on. Not to get Sly and Malto all fired up- but on the PCT a form of cache happens every year as people place water for hikers at various locations. Technically- even Scott Williamson has used cache's to complete his hikes.Originally Posted by Rasty
You know the one that really gets me (said the crotchety old man); Horse poop. People have to bury it, people have to clean up after their dogs. But horse owners don't even need to get off their trusty steed and shovel it off to the side or anything. Total BS. The only backcountry user actually equipped to handle their pet's (enormous) waste and they aren't required to do anything about it. I poop in the driveway of horse stables whenever I get the opportunity, on the river to river trail in Shawnee I pooped in the middle of the horseman's camp much to the chagrin of said horseman. They says,"What are you doing? I says, "Oh, based upon hiking though twenty horses worth of **** on the last 15 miles of trail we both traveled I thought that we all agreed to **** wherever we wanted from now on. Do you have any drinking water, I was also hoping to pee in that for you too." I hate horse owners.
When I first hiked the PCT when water caches were rare, and I never used or depended on them. Second time around, I may have taken water from them, but again didn't depend on them. That would be foolish. They sit on the ground and cause no lasting damage.
Properly buried poo biodegrades, the cathole covered, hopefully forever. The hole is small, it's a necessity.
Food caches on the other hand aren't necessary. Can you seriously imagine if only 50-100 AT hikers started caching food at road crossings? It's a silly argument.
Don't get me going on trail apples. I'm a big proponent of horsey diapers in the backcountry.
Last edited by Sly; 08-10-2013 at 09:51.
agree on the water caches. Food caches have their place, Colters Desert Trail is a great example, but probably not regularly on either the PCT or AT. I have very mixed emotions on horses. On one hand I don't like the mess. I also saw extensive damage caused by a couple of very inconsiderate (but very nice) horse people who hit the PCT in NoCal too early in the season. (There are also very inconsiderate hikers that do the same thing but cause a lot less damage per occurrence. But I also appreciate the fact that many of the trails out west that I love to hike are there in large part due to the horse community helping to build and maintain them. It is that fact that tempers my distaste for tiptoeing through the poo.
There is are several big difference between food and water cache. 1) carrying 10 days worth of food is not nearly as challenging as carrying 3 days worth of water. 2) your water is very unlikely to create a problem with critters. but one or two people improperly storing their food and there is a nuisance bear issue at that location.
Love people and use things; never the reverse.
Mt. Katahdin would be a lot quicker to climb if its darn access trail didn't start all the way down in Georgia.
I'll concede food caches may be necessary on some trails, but not on any of the major trails.
Added: I reread the OP and nowhere did he mention in the 1st post of burying the cache. Without going back to read the entire thread I'm not sure where I got that idea. A well hidden (but not buried) cache would be OK with me but I think it would be against the spirit of setting any records. Since I have no skin in the game (and never will), I'll leave it up to y'all.
PS I'm still almost positive it's illegal to leave food unattended on federal land. IE unattended food drops in the 100 mile wilderness are illegal.
Last edited by Sly; 08-10-2013 at 10:21.
I think even if there is no law against cache of food in any of three major trails it does not mean it is not against the spirit of both supported and unsupported record. Type of morally not sound than legally wrong.
A case scenario: A fellow record attempt -er cache food or equipment in 25 different places along the AT and for injury reason he/she stops the attempt in the first few days. There will be no guaranty that all 25 caches will be retracted on time if ever.
For some trails that lack the convenient resupply options of three major trail ,cache seems the only viable option for the time. Not the most LNT but the most practical one or even sometimes the only option. Not a necessary practice on AT , CDT or PCT in my humble opinion.
How much if any trail magic is allowed on a unsupported hike? Ethically? On a record attempt? Thx.
That would be an interesting question, where do you draw the line.
A) Refuse all trail magic.
B) Do what Matt did: Accept it but do not post your schedule on line so nobody is showing up just for you, all trail magic organic.
C) Do what Anish did: Post your schedule on line.
D) Actively yogi: Not only post your schedule but drop hints about how much you appreciate trail magic.
Let's say you do D. And at one or two points people show up with enough supplies you can avoid walking 3-4 miles into town for resupply. Are you know a supported hiking even though there was no prearranged plan?
Just curious what people think the line is between supported and unsupported?
Love people and use things; never the reverse.
Mt. Katahdin would be a lot quicker to climb if its darn access trail didn't start all the way down in Georgia.
BC range seams to be the norm.That would be an interesting question, where do you draw the line.
A) Refuse all trail magic.
B) Do what Matt did: Accept it but do not post your schedule on line so nobody is showing up just for you, all trail magic organic.
C) Do what Anish did: Post your schedule on line.
D) Actively yogi: Not only post your schedule but drop hints about how much you appreciate trail magic.
Let's say you do D. And at one or two points people show up with enough supplies you can avoid walking 3-4 miles into town for resupply. Are you know a supported hiking even though there was no prearranged plan?
Just curious what people think the line is between supported and unsupported?
Your resupply plan wouldn't alter in an of the scenarios in most cases. Anish for example had to leave Snoqualamie with enough food to get her to the border. I doubt she carried less betting on the chances of receiving trail magic. So from a logistical standpoint I'm not sure it's as much help as it appears. As for your scenario laid out at the end. Someone would have to give you massive quantities of food to avoid a future resupply. I suspect she was eating north of 6000 calories per day. At an average 3 day resupply, which is likely close to what she did, that would be 18000 calories. If that happened then it would violate the spirit of the "Williamson rules" which were to partake in trail magic that was avalible to all hikers. Not sure how many hikers walk out of a feed with 18000 calories.
one last point. there is no question that Anish because of her keeping a current and detailed blog received way more "random" trail magic than I did on my PCT thru. I also have no doubt that Scott also was the beneficiary of extra help as well. (Scott even gave her cookies, how many hikers did he do that for?). While this helps the morale a bit and likely gets a few extra calories in these events also will cost time. Not sure which is the more precious commodity on a hike such as this.
Lets just talk of the one pizza! 30 miles from the border! Im sure she adjusted the food weight in her pack after tanking up! And from pics ive seen, this is high calorie goodness that they specialized for Anish! Every place she met an angel her pack weight must have been altered! Its just sad, I feel she was duped by Scotts past hikes, which I understand may have included cubes of butter! Lots of calories Malto! And small...For a gal bent on ethics, seems kinda relaxed on others...I still remain in awe of the feat, and I will add that there was almost zero snow this year/asterisk....
I get the overall point. There is a huge gray area that spans between supported and unsupported. That won't change until someone hikes and declares that they will take NO trail magic at all and this becomes the defacto standard for unsupported speed hikes. It would not surprise me if that isn't where the multiple debates lead.
it is interesting because in spite of the earlier debates about Matt's secrecy he appears to have escape the controversy of the PCT hikers. (It sounds like its getting pretty nasty on Facebook.) I guess when there millions in endorsements it is to be expected.
Matt's "controversy" is NOBO vs. SOBO.
Love people and use things; never the reverse.
Mt. Katahdin would be a lot quicker to climb if its darn access trail didn't start all the way down in Georgia.
Details????
Not really. Matt has hiked his hiked and no one can take that from him. The controversy is between Lone Wolf and some others that appear absolutely positive NOBO is harder than SOBO and a few that feel there's no difference, or not enough difference to make a hill of beans.
I should have included a smiley in my post.
Love people and use things; never the reverse.
Mt. Katahdin would be a lot quicker to climb if its darn access trail didn't start all the way down in Georgia.
Well we have Mikey here, who's butthurt over the trail angel thing and Karen Dawn on Facebook who's Josh's girlfriend and feels slighted.
Like I mentioned on another thread, Anish could have finished without any assistance or trail magic, Josh couldn't.
Last edited by Sly; 08-10-2013 at 13:53.
Not to worry.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
