Why do we humans need to reduce the bear population?

[tdoczi]

That goes to our primal instinct and it's not unique to humans. That's why so many birds die from cats... primal instinct.

So many captive animals show this instinct, despite them needing to behave this way.

is civilized society not largely about reining in our primal instincts? theres plenty of other primal instincts we've decided we aren't going to indulge in and tolerate, and in most cases rightly so.

[Starchild]

i should really stay out of this.

arguments about it being necessary, ultimately good for the health of population, why the issues exists, etc etc etc aside, heres the thing about hunting that always bothers me- people who are hunters seem to derive joy and even pride from killing living things. thats just... odd to me, at best, and kind of deeply disturbing at worst. few if any hunters are going into the woods to kill bears thinking "well i hate doing this but it has to be done" rather, they are going out there all excited about how much fun this is going to be. to that i always find it difficult to restrain myself from asking "so just what exactly is wrong with you?"

Ok and all, I understand that. It seems wrong for those who take pleasure at hunting and killing a animal. But we as humans are not perfect but all members of the same family, the human family. In that does it really matter in a karmic sense if we care about the bear that is killed though we send a careless one to kill it? Some people are simply not ready yet, though some of us are and can understand and respect the bear beyond the intentions of those who seek to kill it.

[Uriah]

That goes to our primal instinct and it's not unique to humans.

Outside of a suicidal few, our individual instinct is to survive. Like any other creature's. But does it remain instinctual to kill via modern means: a trigger or a trap or a fishing net or a dam or the push of a button?

Our instinct, our hard-wiring, may be led by our need to survive, but we cannot be certain that hunting/killing in the modern sense is truly an instinct, as the hunters and the related industries try to convince us. Rather in the modern sense it is a learned skill. Sure, a gun is merely a tool (and other animals fabricate and use tools), but so too is an atomic bomb, which, when used properly, can kill much more effectively. But is it instinctual to use what we have at our disposal, disposing of everything valuable in our wake? Humans were bestowed with the ability to reason (some of us, anyway) and isn't it reasonable we at least ponder our actions before we go on continuing our madness? (In this thread's case, the bears aren't "overpopulating" so much as they're under-habitated, if you will.)

Our survival, instinctively or otherwise, is no longer dependent upon shooting or trapping or netting (et al), and surely we understand that. (Understanding being a big part of human evolution and instinct.) Killing for "sport" is hardly survival-related and hasn't been ever since the plow and the agricultural revolution.

Why not self-preservation through education and understanding?

It's interesting that the vast majority of hunters I've crossed paths with while hiking all seem to enjoy killing, but have little instinct for true self-preservation, given their hefty unhealthy weight and overall ignorance. Fool us not, they hunt not because it's a part of their genetic makeup, but rather because they enjoy it. Else, they'd worry more about their closing arteries and high blood pressure.

Maybe the human instinct is to wipe everything out, starting with the species going now, and ending with ourselves. It seems far more plausible than killing with scopes and triggers and all.

[egilbe]

How do you draw a moral line at hunting and unwrapping a package of meat purchased from the market? Look at hunting as saving a cow from a factory farm.


Hike your own hike, as it were.

[Coffee]

How do you draw a moral line at hunting and unwrapping a package of meat purchased from the market? Look at hunting as saving a cow from a factory farm.


Hike your own hike, as it were.

Indeed there is no distinction when hunting for food.

[tdoczi]

How do you draw a moral line at hunting and unwrapping a package of meat purchased from the market? Look at hunting as saving a cow from a factory farm.


Hike your own hike, as it were.

i assume, perhaps incorrectly, that slaughterhouse employees don't get some kind of thrill from slaughtering cows. conversely, even hunters who eat their kill i highly doubt a need for food is even close to being their primary motivation, especially when bears are concerned. intent is not something that can be overlooked.

[tdoczi]

Ok and all, I understand that. It seems wrong for those who take pleasure at hunting and killing a animal. But we as humans are not perfect but all members of the same family, the human family. In that does it really matter in a karmic sense if we care about the bear that is killed though we send a careless one to kill it? Some people are simply not ready yet, though some of us are and can understand and respect the bear beyond the intentions of those who seek to kill it.

i get what you're saying, i think. but when whether or not to conduct a hunt is a hot button issue the fact that some of the proponents of the hunt, despite perhaps not saying so publicly, are really just in for getting their rocks off is not something that can be discoutned.

[egilbe]

i get what you're saying, i think. but when whether or not to conduct a hunt is a hot button issue the fact that some of the proponents of the hunt, despite perhaps not saying so publicly, are really just in for getting their rocks off is not something that can be discoutned.

I always felt a bit sadness after filling my tag. The pleasure was a result of hunting with friends, being out in the woods, testing myself against a wild creature whose senses we so much more developed than mine. "Getting my rock off" was never a part of it. The thrill of a successful hunting season was tinged with killing, not enhanced by it. I still get a thrill from seeing deer before they see me. I no longer hunt though, but i understand the draw of it very well. I just dont judge those who do, when i have no experience of what I speak

[Uriah]

Indeed there is no distinction when hunting for food.

Which is why some of us not only refrain from hunting, but from eating meat altogether. A conscientious choice in my case because of my health, the health of the animals' and, to a much, much lesser extent, the health of our environment (though we're nothing to it). These considerations can be argued endlessly of course, but for me it was an easy (albeit educated) decision.

Do I miss a BBQ'd slab of meat from time to time? Damn right I do.
Would I kill and eat an animal if my life depended on it? Damn right I would.
Would I kill a man if my life depended on it? Certainly.
Do I believe hunting is sport? Not for the animal being hunted, no.

[Starchild]

i get what you're saying, i think. but when whether or not to conduct a hunt is a hot button issue the fact that some of the proponents of the hunt, despite perhaps not saying so publicly, are really just in for getting their rocks off is not something that can be discoutned.

My point is the questions are those who are getting their rocks off above the human equation? Or they all part of us and our flaws? Is this not a reasonable way to allow those who must to do so?

[Pedaling Fool]

is civilized society not largely about reining in our primal instincts? theres plenty of other primal instincts we've decided we aren't going to indulge in and tolerate, and in most cases rightly so.

Problem is that there is still a need to hunt. Not just bears, but someone needs to hunt all the other animals that would otherwise explode in population, such as deer. And still the deer population is way too large in many areas, which I think speaks to how few hunt. So really, everyone is getting all spun up as if we are killing off everything, but animal numbers have been rising for years and not just the deer and bear.

Outside of a suicidal few, our individual instinct is to survive. Like any other creature's. But does it remain instinctual to kill via modern means: a trigger or a trap or a fishing net or a dam or the push of a button?

Our instinct, our hard-wiring, may be led by our need to survive, but we cannot be certain that hunting/killing in the modern sense is truly an instinct, as the hunters and the related industries try to convince us. Rather in the modern sense it is a learned skill. Sure, a gun is merely a tool (and other animals fabricate and use tools), but so too is an atomic bomb, which, when used properly, can kill much more effectively. But is it instinctual to use what we have at our disposal, disposing of everything valuable in our wake? Humans were bestowed with the ability to reason (some of us, anyway) and isn't it reasonable we at least ponder our actions before we go on continuing our madness? (In this thread's case, the bears aren't "overpopulating" so much as they're under-habitated, if you will.)

You're wrapping up too much into what I said. First off, you cannot compare hunting to a nation's methods of defense.


Yes, you still get a bit an adrenaline rush even when you use a rifle.Just talk to any hunter, with an open mind. (The trapping/fishing stuff is different, you're confusing them). Although, I would agree that not as much as hunting with spears, but I see that as our evolution away from hunting, granted it will take some time, such is evolution. It's also important to note that not all hunters hunt out of primal instincts, but I probably would consider many of the big game hunters do out of a need for this type of adrenaline rush.Some do it because they don't trust store-bought foods. There are a lot of reasons, but the idea that hunters just like to kill for killings sake is an attempt to compare them to serial murders (which is a whole 'nother thing). I'm more comfortable with comparing the motivations of some as the same as those motivations that keep the cats killing squirrels and birds in my yard.


Hunting has always been a learned skill. And the same is true in much of the animal world (not all) where lions teach the young to hunt, wolves teach the young to hunt...and on and on...

Our survival, instinctively or otherwise, is no longer dependent upon shooting or trapping or netting (et al), and surely we understand that. (Understanding being a big part of human evolution and instinct.) Killing for "sport" is hardly survival-related and hasn't been ever since the plow and the agricultural revolution.

Why not self-preservation through education and understanding?

Our survival instinct isn't dependent on us having sex when we have no plans to have kids, but we do...even when the thought of having kids scares the hell out of us. I never said hunting was survival related,but there is an aspect that appeals to our primal instinct.

It's interesting that the vast majority of hunters I've crossed paths with while hiking all seem to enjoy killing, but have little instinct for true self-preservation, given their hefty unhealthy weight and overall ignorance. Fool us not, they hunt not because it's a part of their genetic makeup, but rather because they enjoy it. Else, they'd worry more about their closing arteries and high blood pressure.

Maybe the human instinct is to wipe everything out, starting with the species going now, and ending with ourselves. It seems far more plausible than killing with scopes and triggers and all.

You're making too much out of this...getting all emotional. Are you comparing them to serial murderers? If not, explain the joy you speak of. And again, I never mentioned self preservation.




BTW, Skills like this, which is generations old, are not innate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tqW8YZDE9o





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[bill1980]

Without getting into the philosophical aspects of hunting, the vast majority of us have to live with the practical aspects. No matter how the population of this country grows, whether by birth or immigration, most of us have no ability to impact that, nor can we impact where people want to reside. The bear population in NJ has exceeded the level at which more human/bear encounters are happening, and some other states like VA and PA are heading in that direction. Residents are going to be worried about those encounters and expect a resolution, of which there are few. Re-settle excess bears? Not gonna happen, way too expensive, even if possible. Cure the human tendency to allow bears access to human food? Can't see any change there. The obesity epidemic on processed foods hasn't persuaded many people to switch diets either, so we can see how well persuasion will work on benevolent attitudes toward bears. Hunting them is the best available solution, whether most of us like it or not.

I will agree bears are generally afraid of humans, but one child getting harmed in a residential area will raise a witch hunt against bears anyway. Even more disturbing to the majority of humans who live in this area is an item I read somewhere about re-introducing the mountain lion, an apex predator, to the east coast. Can't see many citizens wanting to see that happen, because as elusive as they can be, one attack will cause an uproar.

[Dogwood]

BY enacting global HUMAN population controls and transitioning to lower HUMAN fertility rates some problems could be averted with the environment over the long term. Controversial for sure but IF humanity is so apparently advanced as humanity aggressively touts itself it should have the capability of better managing itself through a greater awareness of respecting all LIFE in the Universe. No?

Have your fun but PULL OUT!

[egilbe]

Have your fun but PULL OUT!

or wrap it up, take a pill, get a shot, tie it off or snip it. There are so many choices, there is no reason for humans to overpopulate the planet otherbthan simply being selfish, which we are.

[bill1980]

BY enacting global HUMAN population controls and transitioning to lower HUMAN fertility rates some problems could be averted with the environment over the long term. Controversial for sure but IF humanity is so apparently advanced as humanity aggressively touts itself it should have the capability of better managing itself through a greater awareness of respecting all LIFE in the Universe. No?

Have your fun but PULL OUT!

Dogwood: great idea and something we might all like to see. Unfortunately, kind of like "world peace", which we have been working on (or not) for thousands of years.

[Coffee]

Population growth is stalling below replacement rate in rich countries. What's driving population is the developing world where social, religious and cultural factors favor larger families. Short of totalitarian controls like China's (now loosening) one child policy, it is difficult to make much of an influence.

[Dogwood]

I see the twisting of Darwin's Natural Selection is still deeply ingrained in scientific approaches being used by Social Darwinists to justify the violent exploitation of one group of people(life, organisms) over another.

[PackHorse]

The Cherokee hunt and eat bear, I have it every year when I visit Maggie Valley for a Dutch oven cookoff. Pretty good when cooked correctly.

I don't like the inhumane treatment of animals raised for meat. So we raise our own meat chickens. They are free range and have a very good life. They just have "one bad day" ( which is also done humanely).

So I guess I would prefer hunting to slaughter house meat.

Just a side note... money taken in from hunting licenses go towards monitoring and protecting game.

One of the volunteer things I do is pack equipment and fish for the TWRA. The fish go to a hatchery for breeding and restocking the streams. There is a lot of time spent studying and recording the health of fish ( and animals ). Working with them has been very educational.

[tdoczi]

I always felt a bit sadness after filling my tag. The pleasure was a result of hunting with friends, being out in the woods, testing myself against a wild creature whose senses we so much more developed than mine. "Getting my rock off" was never a part of it. The thrill of a successful hunting season was tinged with killing, not enhanced by it. I still get a thrill from seeing deer before they see me. I no longer hunt though, but i understand the draw of it very well. I just dont judge those who do, when i have no experience of what I speak

one can be out in the woods and spend time with friends without killing be involved, cant one?

the "testing yourself" notion is valid, but i really doubt that is primary in many hunter's minds either.

in any case, my point remains- anyone who is a hunter who stands up and talks about how a hunt is necessary i cant help but suspect that many of them may just be saying that because they want to be allowed to hunt, whether it be to get their rocks off or for some other sort of somewhat more noble pleasure.

[tdoczi]

My point is the questions are those who are getting their rocks off above the human equation? Or they all part of us and our flaws? Is this not a reasonable way to allow those who must to do so?

there are many people amongst us with a very strong drive to do all sorts of questionable things. we generally dont allow them to do so, no.