WhiteBlaze Pages 2024
A Complete Appalachian Trail Guidebook.
AVAILABLE NOW. $4 for interactive PDF(smartphone version)
Read more here WhiteBlaze Pages Store

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 26
  1. #1

    Default When will synthetics be better than down?

    While I love my new EE Prodigy, stuffing it into my backpack reminded me of the days when my down bag would be stuffed into my pack and virtually disappear. So that got me thinking, when will synthetic be better than down? I'm talking warmer for weight and more compressible as well as maintaining the advantages of insulating better when damp. There are quite a few synthetic competitors out there..do they need to step their game up or is making a synthetic equivalent or better than down just really difficult? I mean we live in a world with some pretty mind blowing technology. Yes, a superior synthetic probably isn't on Elon Musk's to-do list..but come on!

  2. #2

    Default

    I like your question. I have thought the same thing myself. We are currently improving upon nature's product by applying a solution that improves down's ability to repel moisture.
    Enough is OK, too much is just right.

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    01-28-2008
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Age
    71
    Posts
    4,907

    Default

    People have been searching for the perfect down substitute for decades. So far each has had problems of bulk and/or durability. Down, meanwhile, has also improved, especially in water resistance. When one synthetic, Lite Loft was introduced for sleeping bags I bought it. It slowly lost loft until I returned it to REI.
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

  4. #4
    GSMNP 900 Miler
    Join Date
    02-25-2007
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Age
    57
    Posts
    4,861
    Journal Entries
    1
    Images
    5

    Default

    I've so far been impressed with what Mountain Hardware has done with their Ultralamina series:
    32º synthetic bag @ 2lbs and stuffs into a 6"x10",
    15º synthetic bag @ 3lbs and stuffs into a 7"x13".

    But compare that to some of their own Down bags:
    32º down bag @ 1lb and stuffs into a 5"x8" (Speed 32 Down).

    As you can see, when you consider the shell is something of a fixed weight, we've got a long way to go before synthetic catches up to down.

    If someone had the money to sink into it, I think we have the technology to eventually match down for its abilities. But I just don't see enough need for synthetic sleeping bag insulation that is going to cause the required investment to be made in my lifetime.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    I've so far been impressed with what Mountain Hardware has done with their Ultralamina series:
    32º synthetic bag @ 2lbs and stuffs into a 6"x10",
    15º synthetic bag @ 3lbs and stuffs into a 7"x13".

    But compare that to some of their own Down bags:
    32º down bag @ 1lb and stuffs into a 5"x8" (Speed 32 Down).

    As you can see, when you consider the shell is something of a fixed weight, we've got a long way to go before synthetic catches up to down.

    If someone had the money to sink into it, I think we have the technology to eventually match down for its abilities. But I just don't see enough need for synthetic sleeping bag insulation that is going to cause the required investment to be made in my lifetime.
    I like that. Seems true. I know I personally wouldn't have gone with synthetic but liked the cost of them and will designate it as my trail work bag which will see rougher use I don't want to put on my down bag. Synthetic just isn't as "in" with the majority. I wonder if the demand was crazy high that we'd see some innovation.

    So I suppose it would just make more sense to increase down's water repellent capabilities than to make a superior synthetic fill. The only thing not addressed is the cost. A synthetic equal to down would definitely be a lot cheaper. Good for us, probably not as beneficial to the manufacturers?

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    01-28-2008
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Age
    71
    Posts
    4,907

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBeerd View Post
    I like that. Seems true. I know I personally wouldn't have gone with synthetic but liked the cost of them and will designate it as my trail work bag which will see rougher use I don't want to put on my down bag. Synthetic just isn't as "in" with the majority. I wonder if the demand was crazy high that we'd see some innovation.

    So I suppose it would just make more sense to increase down's water repellent capabilities than to make a superior synthetic fill. The only thing not addressed is the cost. A synthetic equal to down would definitely be a lot cheaper. Good for us, probably not as beneficial to the manufacturers?
    For a person on a budget, synthetics are a reasonable trade off. Better to carry a bigger load then to not get out.
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

  7. #7
    Registered User Tuckahoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-26-2004
    Location
    Williamsburg, Virginia
    Age
    53
    Posts
    2,320
    Images
    52

    Default

    My 15º and 50º bags and my top and bottom quilts are each synthetic.

    When I was shopping for my 50º bag I found that the equivalent 800+ fill bags would save an average of 3-4 ounces, while the 600 and 650 fill power bags were actually an average of 8 oz heavier. The 600 fill bags were generally in the $120 to $140 range and the 800+ fill bags were in the $250 to $300 range. On the other hand the synthetic bag regularly retailed for $85 and I was able to get it on clearance for $60. I'll admit I'm cheap, and 4 ounces wasn't worth another $190.

    My synthetic 30º 27 oz Climashield top quilt was on sale for $153; while the 30º 700 duck down 23.25 oz top quilt was $240. Again that 4 ounce savings wasn't worth the $87 difference.

    It's not that I think synthetic is better than down, but for myself when there is a fairly minor difference in the weight and a significant difference in cost, it is a lot easier to pick the bag based on cost.
    igne et ferrum est potentas
    "In the beginning, all America was Virginia." -​William Byrd

  8. #8
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-15-2004
    Location
    Colorado Plateau
    Age
    49
    Posts
    11,002

    Default

    Ah, but the longevity of down is excellent. I doubt a synthetic bag would hold for X miles vs my Feathered Friends bag. Still usable if not as lofty (I now use a down quilt).

    Sometimes a little more money up front is less money in the long run.

    Of course, to test this theory, I should hike another X miles with a synthetic bag. Maybe I should put up a Kickstarter campaign, have all you nice people sponsor me so I can re-do all those hikes again...this time with a synthetic bag. Anyone game???
    Paul "Mags" Magnanti
    http://pmags.com
    Twitter: @pmagsco
    Facebook: pmagsblog

    The true harvest of my life is intangible...a little stardust caught,a portion of the rainbow I have clutched -Thoreau

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-30-2006
    Location
    Bozeman, MT
    Age
    62
    Posts
    613
    Images
    6

    Default

    A question asked since the early 1970's... haven't seen it yet.

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    01-28-2008
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Age
    71
    Posts
    4,907

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    Ah, but the longevity of down is excellent. I doubt a synthetic bag would hold for X miles vs my Feathered Friends bag. Still usable if not as lofty (I now use a down quilt).

    Sometimes a little more money up front is less money in the long run.

    Of course, to test this theory, I should hike another X miles with a synthetic bag. Maybe I should put up a Kickstarter campaign, have all you nice people sponsor me so I can re-do all those hikes again...this time with a synthetic bag. Anyone game???
    I imagine that quite a few on the trail now are pretty gamey.
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

  11. #11
    Registered User mudsocks's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-22-2013
    Location
    Narragansett Number One, Maine
    Age
    46
    Posts
    235
    Images
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBeerd View Post
    do they need to step their game up or is making a synthetic equivalent or better than down just really difficult? I mean we live in a world with some pretty mind blowing technology.
    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    If someone had the money to sink into it, I think we have the technology to eventually match down for its abilities.
    Nature has had millions of years to perfect down. If a cost effective true synthetic alternative was easy few of us would be using down now.

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBeerd View Post
    When will synthetic be better than down?
    Never...
    "We can no longer live as rats. We know too much." -- Nicodemus

  13. #13
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-15-2004
    Location
    Colorado Plateau
    Age
    49
    Posts
    11,002

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Bill View Post
    I imagine that quite a few on the trail now are pretty gamey.
    GA-ME for sure...

    MEGAey in a few more months.
    Paul "Mags" Magnanti
    http://pmags.com
    Twitter: @pmagsco
    Facebook: pmagsblog

    The true harvest of my life is intangible...a little stardust caught,a portion of the rainbow I have clutched -Thoreau

  14. #14
    Wanna-be hiker trash
    Join Date
    03-05-2010
    Location
    Connecticut
    Age
    42
    Posts
    6,922
    Images
    78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    Ah, but the longevity of down is excellent. I doubt a synthetic bag would hold for X miles vs my Feathered Friends bag. Still usable if not as lofty (I now use a down quilt).
    On an interesting note, I've heard anecdotally that the various types of dry-down that recently hit the market have a substantially reduced lifespan compared to regular down.
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

  15. #15
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-15-2004
    Location
    Colorado Plateau
    Age
    49
    Posts
    11,002

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm the elf View Post
    On an interesting note, I've heard anecdotally that the various types of dry-down that recently hit the market have a substantially reduced lifespan compared to regular down.
    Interesting.Since they are so new, wonder how people have that data?

    Be curious to see in 5 yrs or so how the dry down garments and bags hold up.
    Last edited by Mags; 04-21-2014 at 12:05.
    Paul "Mags" Magnanti
    http://pmags.com
    Twitter: @pmagsco
    Facebook: pmagsblog

    The true harvest of my life is intangible...a little stardust caught,a portion of the rainbow I have clutched -Thoreau

  16. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    06-10-2005
    Location
    Bedford, MA
    Posts
    12,678

    Default

    I have a down bag that's pushing 42 years old now. Not a thru-hiker's bag, it's got 2.5 lbs. of fill in it. The only thing wrong with it is that one of the (internal) baffles seems to have given way, so that a six or eight inch section of the bag is missing its proper share of down. I wonder if that can be fixed?

    That bag kept me warm a couple of times in subzero temps in the Whites, when it was a mere 18 years old. And I was a mere 37.

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    12-31-2009
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Age
    45
    Posts
    4,276
    Images
    17

    Default

    When? Probably never. Continuous filament synthetic insulation fibers can't match the 3D structure of down feathers, although there's been some recent attempts and synthetic clusters. Down feathers can retain their originally loft for decades when cared for properly, even when used a lot. I wish my carpeting could do the same. The structure of a down feather could probably be improved, and maybe it will be if we get better at genetic modification and growing tissue in labs.

    Others have listed some applications where it's better though. I'd also like the baffle closest to my mouth to be synthetic. Nemo uses synthetic insulation in the throat of their -40 down sleeping bag. I also think synthetic insulation could be superior if it was bonded to both sides of an inflatable baffle so that full loft is always possible.

  18. #18
    Registered User Drybones's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-13-2010
    Location
    Gadsden, AL
    Age
    75
    Posts
    3,187

    Default

    Man will never better a goose or duck at making insulation...just wont happen...ever.

  19. #19
    GSMNP 900 Miler
    Join Date
    02-25-2007
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Age
    57
    Posts
    4,861
    Journal Entries
    1
    Images
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Drybones View Post
    Man will never better a goose or duck at making insulation...just wont happen...ever.
    I think you're right... but I think it's because of economics rather than technology.

    With technology, I can see the possibility of using nano-technology and 3-D printing concepts to build insulation that is structured very much like down. We could possibly even better down as we wouldn't be limited to biological building blocks. We could use things like carcon nanotubes and bucky-balls as the building blocks for simulating down insulation. But doing so would come at a high cost... one where there just isn't enough of a market to make the investment cost worth it.

    I think we'll see bigger advancement in technologies like home insulation well before we'll see similar gains in sleeping bag technology.

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    01-23-2006
    Location
    Melbourne,Australia
    Age
    68
    Posts
    2,851

    Default

    Just my take on some of the comments 1) If someone had the money to sink into it...

    I am pretty sure that there is a lot of money put into researching this, getting there is another matter.
    One relatively new development is Thermoball by Primaloft, said to equal 600 fill power goose down.
    Keep in mind that the money is in clothing (jackets mostly in this case) not sleeping bags.



    2) A synthetic equal to down would definitely be a lot cheaper. Good for us, probably not as beneficial to the manufacturers?
    After the initial R&D if mass produced (as it would) it probably would be cheaper.
    Handling down for a start is messy and expensive and of course it does not originate in a factory.
    However IF someone came up with something similar to down in weight/loft they could charge whatever the market can take, it would not necessarely need to be a lot less than down. So that could also work for the manufacturer .
    Down is generic so anyone can use it, a proprietry synthetic fill would be the same as selling Gore Tex or eVent.

    3) When I was shopping for my 50º bag I found that the equivalent 800+ fill bags would save an average of 3-4 ounces, while the 600 and 650 fill power bags were actually an average of 8 oz heavier


    If you compare ratings from the same manufacturer you will find that the difference is greater than that and no , so far, there is no synthetic lighter than 600-650 down.
    Generally speaking the lesser the cost the higher the claims.

    By that what I mean is that simply because the label says "0 degree bag " it does not mean that it is...

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
++ New Posts ++

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •