User fees for PA state game lands?
FYI. This issue is being discussed by the PA Game Commission.
http://timesleader.com/news/outdoors...d-be-a-reality
I think this is a great thing in my oppinion EVERY state should adopt some kind of land use permit system.
I've been on both sides of this issue, and hate the idea. As a fisher, trapper, duck hunter, you are taking harvesting something from the land and should be regulated. As a hiker you are maybe taking fire wood, pictures and that's it. Now having said that, hunters, fishers and trappers are no doubt stewards of the land and give a lot back in the form of revenues, volunteer work, environmental studies, education and more. Perhaps a small fee could by levied, but nothing like paying out of state fees that one incurs if wanting to engage in those activities....those fees are often 10 times what a resident pays...crazy.
Ya know Red Dog I agree with ya on this, in addition tack on a couple bucks to it to cover insurance for search and rescue to end that discussion as well. A Country wide hikers permit.Originally Posted by RED-DOG
And so we continue to monetize every aspect of our lives...
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
Like Hotel taxes. MAKE the other guy pay. Higher than $20.70 to hike through PA game lands. Only New Yorkers have to pay though. So that's OK.
Last edited by bamboo bob; 06-11-2014 at 17:38.
Everything is in Walking Distance
Well that's the part I'm not happy about, but if hikers are the be charged, make it fare and not gouge em.
I have no problem with this what so ever...if Pennsylvania game lands are anything like Virginia's Wildlife Management Areas, its not going to be the same as other public lands that are usually managed for general public use. WMAs are managed by the department of Game and Inland fisheries and much of their budget and funding is paid for by hunting and fishing licenses as well as boat fees.
The DGIF customer is not the general public, but those who buy the licenses and fees. So now we have a segment of the population who do not pay the fees or buy the licenses increasingly making use of these resources. I for example like to go to the Chickahominy WMA to use the shooting range -- but I am not a hunter nor a fisherman. I've benefited and enjoyed the range. Isn't it only right, that those who want to use these resources pay into their protection and maintenance as well? I have the choice of buying a license or paying a daily ($4) or yearly fee ($24). It looks as though PA is doing the same that Virginia did 2 years ago... and if you want to avoid the fee, dont use resources paid for by someone else
About VaDGIF fee schedule at Chickahominy -- http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/access-permit/
igne et ferrum est potentas
"In the beginning, all America was Virginia." -William Byrd
According to the article, they want to set the fee higher than the price of a hunting license, which is $20.70 for residents and $101.70 for nonresidents. (The price would be higher because hikers, bikers, birdwatchers, and so on use the game lands for a greater portion of the year than hunters do.) So a nonresident thru-hiker would pay over a hundred bucks for the privilege of visiting the state game lands outside hunting season.
I expect the idea to enjoy broad bipartisan support.
Argument from the Left:
Well, we need some system of regulation, because there are way too many people getting out into the natural areas, and we need to keep them natural. The higher we set the price, the fewer people will get out there, and that will save the game lands from overuse! And the money we collect can go to much-needed and underfunded social programs, helping people who are too poor ever to enjoy all these expensive outdoor pursuits!
Argument from the Right:
Well, after all, this is the 21st Century. You can't get something for nothing. If you want the government to let you on their land - it's government land, after all - you have to pay for it. It the state game lands can't pay for themselves, the government will do better to sell them off to developers and collect the taxes.
If every state on the trail does this - and why shouldn't they, the trail crosses state land in every state it visits? - and the fees are roughly proportional to the mileage, then a thru-hike would cost about $1200 for hiking permits to the states. Small states like Connecticut would probably have to charge more to break even, so let's say about $1500 all told.
That seems like a typical excise tax rate. After all, a thru-hiker is spending about $5000 to complete the hike, and 30% is a pretty common rate for a luxury tax. If someone can afford a six-month vacation, they can surely afford a 30% tax!
Besides, collecting the fees and policing those who don't pay up will create jobs!
(Actually, it would probably be a better idea just to sell the state game lands off to developers and then collect property tax on them. The market would then set a proper price for using them.)
Argument from both sides of the aisle:
If you don't like the idea, and you live in Pennsylvania, write to your state legislators. Be sure you enclose as big a check as you can afford, because legislation doesn't come cheap, either. The legislature is another government function that has to pay for itself. After all, we have to run the government like a business!
I always know where I am. I'm right here.
Oh yeah. Write your congressman. That works.
Everything is in Walking Distance
I suppose i should ask, has anyone who is knowledgeable about the situation heard what if any impact the proposal would have on the A.T.? Has this the A.T.'s presense been acknowledged by the state officals when discussing the new fees?
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
My understanding, the PA game commission makes exceptions for AT through hiker --the through hiker being one that enters the area and then exits through an area that was not their beginning.
PA code -- http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/05...5/s135.42.html
SATC -- http://www.satc-hike.org/paoutdoors.html
Sierra Club -- http://pennsylvania.sierraclub.org/P...gamelands.html
Although game lands make for great day hikes, you must adhere to Game Commission rules. Overnight camping on game lands is prohibited with the exception of through-hikers traversing the Appalachian Trail. During spring and fall hunting seasons, hikers must wear blaze orange clothing. And there are restrictions on mountain biking and other recreational activities.
igne et ferrum est potentas
"In the beginning, all America was Virginia." -William Byrd
As a PA resident, I'm on the fence about this plan. In truth, some of it is just my rebellious nature and NOT wanting any sort of regulation. The question is, how much do you charge and what does that get you? I like shooting guns, but I'm not a hunter (this will probably change within the next year), and I've purchased a range permit to go to Scotia (a local gun range). I'm okay with this purchase because there is maintenance involved in this activity (brass clean-up, proctor on sight, back-stops, etc). I fully agree with hunting/fishing/trapping permits as well. But, I'm not sure I should have to pay to go on an afternoon hike. I guess part of the outdoor recreational activities is being out in the woods, away from the nonsense and regulation of every day life. So, if I have to pay for hiking, what can I expect in return? The trails that I frequent are by and large (at least from what I understand) maintained by volunteers. There's no facilities available (privy, potable water spigot, etc). So, what exactly am I paying for? In terms of trail destruction and maintenance, I feel the bikers do more consistent and lasting damage to the trail then I do as a hiker, should they have to pay more? Also, and this is the biggest concern within the following statement, "The permit would be similar to the one that is required to use the PGC’s public shooting ranges and would limit when certain activities could take place to avoid conflicts with hunting season. While non-hunting and non-trapping use of [COLOR=#737373 !important][COLOR=#737373 !important]the [COLOR=#737373 !important]game[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] lands is already permitted, the agency already limits certain activities in specific areas to avoid conflicts and safety issues during hunting season." So, does this mean if I have a recreational license, I can't be on game lands when hunting season is in full swing? I do try to hike on Sundays when hunting season is active, but what if they regulate when you're actually allowed to be in the woods? So now, instead of a nice relaxing hike, I'm hounded by agents looking for my hiking permit, and then I'm fined if it isn't "hiking season?" And, maybe these fears are completely unfounded, but once you open this door of regulation, where does it stop? I'd also like to know where my money is going. How will it be used? Is there a deficit created by the current system, or is this just another way to round up some capital that will be spent elsewhere? It also begs the question, what if I have family in town and they want to hike? What happens on State vs Federal lands? The article lists "game lands" but many of the state parks near me are either designated game lands or contain areas that are designated. So, if that's the case, it's not just game lands, but also the state park that the game lands reside in.
"Although game lands make for great day hikes, you must adhere to Game Commission rules. Overnight camping on game lands is prohibited with the exception of through-hikers traversing the Appalachian Trail. During spring and fall hunting seasons, hikers must wear blaze orange clothing. And there are restrictions on mountain biking and other recreational activities."
Is that true? Cause I'm pretty sure where I usually hike is considered game lands and people camp there all the time!
I'd almost support this if the money would be used to maintain the lands.
Maybe a better way would be to have a sales tax on hiking/outdoor equipment much like hunting and shooting sports do with the Pittman/Robertson Act.
And by the way those of you using the shooting ranges and don't think you're paying to support them remember there is an 11% tax (P/R tax) on all archery equipment, firearms and ammo that goes to support these facilities.
"Chainsaw" GA-ME 2011
I was under the impression that camping on PA Game lands was not allowed. State/National parks, yes. Game land, no. I could be mistaken though.
As this is merely a proposal for PA, I'll throw in this little bit of information for Virginia from the DGIF FAQ -- http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/access-permit/faqs/
And I did not realize that there was a federal match for license fees --Why was an Access Permit created?
The Board of Game and Inland Fisheries was given authority by the Virginia General Assembly to charge a facility use fee in 2003. At their May 3, 2011 meeting, after an extensive regulatory process that included considerable public input, the Board passed the regulation establishing an access permit to go into effect January 1, 2012. The regulation applies to Wildlife Management Areas (WMAs) and DGIF-owned public fishing lakes. Lists of WMAs and DGIF-owned lakes can be found on the agency website. The purpose of this new fee is to diversify the funding base for maintaining our properties by involving all those who directly benefit from using our properties. DGIF had the legal authority to institute such a fee since 2003 and felt that the move was justified now since the Board decided to raise selected hunting, fishing, and trapping license fees effective July 1, 2011. Rather than loading even more of a financial burden on hunters, anglers, and trappers the Board wanted to broaden the financial support.
Why wouldn't I just buy a freshwater fishing or hunting license?
That would be an excellent way gain the access privileges and provide additional funds to help manage and maintain the area. Annual Access Permits cost Virginia residents the same amount as an annual freshwater fishing or hunting license, but when you purchase a freshwater fishing or hunting license DGIF will receive more money due to the federal match on those licenses. Currently the federal match for a hunting license is $12 per license sold and the federal match for a freshwater fishing license is $7 per license sold. To maximize your support of WMAs and public fishing lakes, we encourage you to purchase a freshwater fishing or hunting license. This approach will not only generate additional funds for the agency, but will provide you with the opportunity to freshwater fish or hunt statewide for a year. Note that you must pass the Hunter Education class to purchase a hunting license. Hunter Education classes are taught statewide free of charge. Non-resident fishing and hunting licenses do cost more than the Access Permit.
Last edited by Tuckahoe; 06-11-2014 at 19:49.
igne et ferrum est potentas
"In the beginning, all America was Virginia." -William Byrd
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/05...5/s135.42.html
Special attention to section b4 and c.
"Chainsaw" GA-ME 2011
Who cares, Pennsylvania sucks anyway.
In PA, State FOREST land (administered by PA Dept of Conservation and Natural Resources) and State GAME land (administered by PA Game Commission) operate under two different sets of rules. Some people refer casually to state forests as "game lands" as the state forests are also open to hunting.
In the vicinity of State College, the big area south of town surrounding Whipple Dam, Penn-Roosevelt, Greenwood Furnace state parks, etc. is Rothrock State Forest where backpack camping is allowed (other than too close to roads, or in natural areas such as Alan Seeger and Detweiler Run).
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