Hiking Though the Whites in Late October?

[Tron-Life]

Is this too late in the season to do it without specialized winter gear? I don't mind using microspikes but having to use snowshoes would turn me off. The temperature range on Mt Washington (the most extreme example) after the 15th ranges between 45 and 9 degrees. Has anyone here personally crossed the entire range in October?
I was supposed to leave from Delwater Gap towards Gorham around the 10th of August but I may have to leave at the end of August or the beginning of September instead and will probably get to NH by mid October. I've been on the AT in NJ/NY/CT in late October early November but the Whites are on a whole other level. I could head south from NJ, but that section doesn't interest me.

Any advice would be appreciated,
Thanks

[Slo-go'en]

You'd have to be really, really, lucky with the weather. While it doesn't last long, we typically start to get measurable snow fall at elevation around the end of September. Worse is if you get a few days of really cold rain, which is real common that time of year.

The other challenge is that most of the AMC huts close after Columbus day weekend so you don't have those as a refuge. Hours of daylight are getting short so you will find yourself hiking by headlamp a lot to get to a shelter or campsite.

You'd be better off starting at Gorham end of August and heading south. Although that has it's own problems, like having to start with the hardest hiking of the trip.

[DavidNH]

If by late October you are thinking Oct 15 onwards (or even from Columbus day) You can forget about going over the Franconia range, Presidential Range, Carter Range (etc etc.) without full winter gear). There may be a couple nice warm sunny days in there. but you will almost certainly encounter at some point winter conditions possibly mid-winter conditions. I have never hiked the whites that late in the season but have read of what it's like. I have seen the peaks snowcapped as early as Columbus day weekend. By late Oct the summit of Mt Washington will likely have temps closer to 10 F than 45.

[fiddlehead]

In 2001, we hiked the trail SOBO, hitting the NH border and the whites around the 1st of Nov.
Had big snow one day (our last) going over South Kinsman and Moosilauki.
The rest of the time, we were lucky, saw almost no overnight hikers, and had great weather (better than I had in Sept a few years before)
So, I believe it's hit or miss, but yes, you must be prepared for a blizzard.

Good luck.

[RED-DOG]

Yep i agree with all the post above, if you are going to do the whites that time of year you are going to need two things, the phone number for the nearest rescue team and ALOT of LUCK, and your FULL winter gear.
and Personally i wouldn't even think about going across MT Washington that time of year.

[Driver8]

Is this too late in the season to do it without specialized winter gear? I don't mind using microspikes but having to use snowshoes would turn me off. The temperature range on Mt Washington (the most extreme example) after the 15th ranges between 45 and 9 degrees. Has anyone here personally crossed the entire range in October?
I was supposed to leave from Delwater Gap towards Gorham around the 10th of August but I may have to leave at the end of August or the beginning of September instead and will probably get to NH by mid October. I've been on the AT in NJ/NY/CT in late October early November but the Whites are on a whole other level. I could head south from NJ, but that section doesn't interest me.

Any advice would be appreciated,
Thanks

Why not head north to Gorham for your start and hike south, for the most part eliminating the need for winter weather considerations?

[Mags]

Cold, wet and icy more than likely. At least that is what I remember from when I cut my backpacking teeth up there.

[Miner]

I hiked SOBO at the end of September, leaving Pinkham Notch on Sept.24 and getting to Glencliff on Sept. 30. I had 1 sunny day (ironically the day I went over Mt. Washington), but the wind was strong and cold and the wind chill was causing frost to form on the rocks of the trail. The previous night near the closed Madison hut, the wind was cutting through my 20F bag and bivy sack and I ended up using my cuben fiber tarp as a blanket to stay warm in the wind (more to cut the wind as I never used my down jacket to sleep in). The remaining days were cloudy with occasional rain and 1 day of being drenched though never felt as cold as going over Mt. Washington. No day ever felt warm though I never felt cold either. I never stayed in any of the huts, but being able to get some hot soup mid day was very appreciated. I was using my standard shoulder season gear from the mountains out west where I can handle temperatures down into the high teens.

Given that I saw some light snow down in the lower elevations of Vermont during the 2nd week of October, I would say expect snow and even colder weather then I saw at the end of September. I would expect ice on the rocks that you'll be often walking on.

[Mags]

As a thought, the weather you are seeing in late October is, in many ways, more difficult to cope with vs deep winter. Cold and wet is the prime weather for hypothermia conditions.

In deep winter (assuming you have the proper clothing/gear), it is typically colder but drier. I would rather deal with snow and cold than rain/sleet and cold any day!

[Feral Bill]

Please note that no one has suggested that this would be a good idea, even in this contentious bunch.

[Another Kevin]

The edge of winter - say, October or May in the Whites - is the absolute worst time to be up there, and AMC asks you to stay off the trails then (at least partly because they're also particularly sensitive then, since the half-frozen mud is very prone to erosion).. Mags observes it's perfect hypothermia weather. October is also the time of the year that you get unsound ice. I'm happy with crampons and ice axe once daytime temperatures stay securely below freezing, but there simply ain't no way to take a steep scramble on slush safely. Until you've got a solid snowpack that your snowshoes will grip, or sound ice, it's very risky.

Note that Katahdin does not, as hiker lor suggests, close for winter. It does close no later than October 15 for hiking, and it reopens for winter climbing once the ice is sound. In the meantime, the authorities don't want search-and-rescue staff going up there and risking their lives to save fools.

Ask yourself if you want to be hiking in this sort of stuff, only with the ice sliding off the rock in sheets when you step on it. And this is below the timber line. (Not far below, that balsam is getting pretty gnarly, and those couple of gray birches are struggling.)

[peakbagger]

I live in the whites and hike in the whites year round. The biggest issue is daily temperature variations, day hikers can look at the forecast and what they need for the day but a backpacker has the assume the worst. Generally the summits start getting overnight snow in the end of September/early October, it usually melts on sunny day but can ice up on bad one. Temps on the ridge can get to zero one day and 60 the next, add in wind and wet and its a guarantee for hyperthermia. Madison and Lake of the Clouds shut down early so there is no places to shelter along the ridge (but the other huts tend to stay open until the 10/15 on caretaker basis (check the Schedule to make sure).

[Another Kevin]

I live in the whites and hike in the whites year round. The biggest issue is daily temperature variations, day hikers can look at the forecast and what they need for the day but a backpacker has the assume the worst.

I've had the experience of being caught in the Whites in an unforecast blizzard on a day trip in June. The mountains make their own weather.

[Tron-Life]

Wow, what a dilemma. I could SOBO from Gorham, I could change my goal from hiking to the Whites to hiking to the end of the LT (strong possibility), I could try to hike south from NJ (don't want to because PA sucks but makes more sense weather wise), or I could have my winter equipment sent out to me at Hanover or Lincoln. At that point, having been on the trail for awhile, I would know when to tech up for the ice and snow.

I have a reasonable amount of winter hiking/camping/climbing experience from the Cascades out west and the Adirondacks but every area is different with its own challenges. Mt. Marcy in the ADKs seems somewhat similar and I climbed that without snowshoes (I brought them though) during November or December, some time before the snow starts to compact and get deep. Actually, I have hiked about a third of the 46 high peaks during the winter and only had to use snowshoes to get through the Dial/Nippletop/Colvin/Blake range and this was well into the season around January. Does anyone have experience hiking in both these areas during the early winter? Do you think hiking conditions are comparable? The temperature range during October is similar, 46 to 16, as is the monthly snowfall average of about 9.5 inches, though I think wind on Washington is much stronger.

Gear wise, I would think that at a minimum spikes and an avalanche shovel would sufficient for sudden inclement weather that early. I heard that you don't really need an ice axe as the routes aren't really that technical except for perhaps crossing the exposed ridge between Washington and over Jefferson. This is mostly a matter of comfort and preference but any thoughts are welcome. In my experience, I've never actually had to use crampons or an axe (except on Mt Hood summit approach) so I don't expect to have to in the Whites but I don't know. There is some pretty crazy wind up there which my make it more icy. Again, any thoughts would be welcome. Aside from the tech gear, all I need is to switch out my tarp for my LH solo, and my 30 degree quilt for my -10 Mountain Hardwear sleeping bag when it gets cold enough, and of course, careful planning and patience to wait for a good weather window.

As I write, I'm getting more excited about trying this during October despite the potential conditions but I'm not sure. The other plans I mentioned seem so much less fun by comparison but they may be my only option. Starting in Gorham is definitely out as it will be too hard initially and I can't train now as I am healing a minor foot injury from over training. Add to that, that I hate traveling long distances to the trail since it takes more time and initial spending on transportation. The extended LT trip is interesting but I would rather stay on the AT the whole way to NH as there are more people and I can get a ride from Gorham to Manchester and then to Boston from my stepbro, which is much easier than getting back here from the Canadian Border. Also, the finish at Mt. Washington is much more dramatic, sort of like a mini Katahdin (though Washington is a little higher.) Going south from here would be the best option weather wise but PA is underwhelming, and I already hiked from High Point to Harper's Ferry. I could try to make it to Springer as I have the time since I declined being rehired at my school for the first semester, which is part of the reason this trip means so much to me, but that seem anti-climactic and there is the same concern about there being nobody on the trail.

ARGGHHH! Decisions, Decisions...

[Tron-Life]

I could also take a break in NH in Manchester or time it so that I actually arrive later when snow cover is more reliable.

[Tron-Life]

"In deep winter (assuming you have the proper clothing/gear), it is typically colder but drier. I would rather deal with snow and cold than rain/sleet and cold any day!"

Yes indeed friend. When I first moved back here from Oregon, I mostly hiked up in th ADKs during the winter for this very reason, that and the fact that there are no bugs in the winter It actually took me awhile to transition to 3 season camping effectively because I was so used to just assuming I would be cold and taking everything. For 3 season, you have to make alot more decisions about gear I think.

[Slo-go'en]

I could also take a break in NH in Manchester or time it so that I actually arrive later when snow cover is more reliable.

That really isn't an option. Unless you have lots of time and money to burn. And then the going is going to be even worse. Long distance hiking simply isn't done around here much past the middle of October. We go into peak bagging mode.

Anyway, it's a crap shot. You could luck out with some really spectacular early October hiking with only minimal crappy weather, or it could go the other way around. You just don't know until it happens. But once past the middle of October, conditions start to deteriorate rapidly. If your willing to just go as far as you can given the weather, then you could make it work.

[Tron-Life]

That really isn't an option. Unless you have lots of time and money to burn. And then the going is going to be even worse. Long distance hiking simply isn't done around here much past the middle of October. We go into peak bagging mode.

Anyway, it's a crap shot. You could luck out with some really spectacular early October hiking with only minimal crappy weather, or it could go the other way around. You just don't know until it happens. But once past the middle of October, conditions start to deteriorate rapidly. If your willing to just go as far as you can given the weather, then you could make it work.

You may be right. I've been reading trip reports from Hike-NH.com and the latest report I saw of someone crossing the Presidentials was October 23rd and the earliest was around December 2, and as you said, they were peakbaggers. The other reports I've seen in the Whites (though not in the Presidentials or on Franconia Ridge) during October and November look pretty reasonable but they may have been lucky. I think the most dangerous obstacle, as Kevin said, would be the daytime temperatures being too high and ice slipping out underfoot.

I don't think I would mind stopping in Lincoln and turning back If I had too. How are conditions on Moosilauke through 93/3 during the period I indicated and how do they compare with Franconia Ridge and the Presidentials?

Not sure what I'm going to do but I appreciate all the feedback.

[Tron-Life]

Here's a link to a trip report I found from Oct 23rd on Moosilauke:
http://www.trailtosummit.com/2011/10...oosilauke.html

Are these conditions typical?

[Slo-go'en]

I don't think I would mind stopping in Lincoln and turning back If I had too. How are conditions on Moosilauke through 93/3 during the period I indicated and how do they compare with Franconia Ridge and the Presidentials?

It is impossible to predict and conditions change on a daily bases and with elevation. Even with the latest forecast, you can't plan more then a couple of days ahead. There is a reason this area is known for having the worst weather in America and is not to be taken lightly. The weather here can change drastically in a matter of hours. Three different weather fronts converge over this area - sometimes all at the same time! October is a transition month, so conditions can oscillate wildly.