Bear Spray for Kids

[HooKooDooKu]

I take my kids (as young as 6yo) on back packing trips with me to places like GSMNP. This obviously poses a danger to them should anything ever happen to me.

I've always taught them that we always leave an itinerary with someone that can contact authorities should we ever be late returning. I've also taught them to 'shelter-in-place' if anything ever happened to me rather than risking trying to find their way out of the woods on their own.

However, the GSMNP has bears, wild pigs, and coyote packs. After seeing a teen hiking around GSMNP with a can of bear spray, I've considered adding bear spray to my kids packs. The idea is that if something ever happened to me, they would have something more than just hiking sticks to defend themselves waiting for rescue.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Teacher & Snacktime]

My trust of the application of good judgment by teens is very, very limited. I would envision bear spray "play" which like a loaded gun, can be lethal....certainly harmful. How funny it might seem to give a quick squirt into the face of a hiking buddy to see him squirm and hear him yell.....unfortunately to be followed with asphyxiation and chemical burns. Kids do dumb things, because they're kids....even the smart, responsible ones.

Besides, it might be better to arm him/her with information on how to deal WITH nature rather than try to control or contain it (which we can never do). Invest in a decent whistle and educate to reduce fear. It's time and money better spent.

[HooKooDooKu]

My trust of the application of good judgment by teens is very, very limited. I would envision bear spray "play" which like a loaded gun, can be lethal....certainly harmful. How funny it might seem to give a quick squirt into the face of a hiking buddy to see him squirm and hear him yell.....unfortunately to be followed with asphyxiation and chemical burns. Kids do dumb things, because they're kids....even the smart, responsible ones.

Besides, it might be better to arm him/her with information on how to deal WITH nature rather than try to control or contain it (which we can never do). Invest in a decent whistle and educate to reduce fear. It's time and money better spent.

Good point on the dangers of bear spray.

I have done what I can to educate my kids on dealing with wildlife (specifically what we do when we encounter bears), and they each have a whistle that is attached to their backpacks.

But my kids are not even teenagers, and I don't always take both with me. My youngest is only 8yo, and I'm thinking thru what is needed to best insure his safety should I somehow become incapacitated and the 8yo is alone miles from any trailhead.

[Another Kevin]

But my kids are not even teenagers, and I don't always take both with me. My youngest is only 8yo, and I'm thinking thru what is needed to best insure his safety should I somehow become incapacitated and the 8yo is alone miles from any trailhead.

One thing that helps to "ensure domestic tranquility" with my non-hiker wife is to carry a PLB and make sure that everyone in the party who is old enough to read the instructions knows where it is and how to set it off. Aside from that, if the kid sticks close to you, the likelihood of a bear problem is vanishingly remote, unless you're in grizzly country. Black bears in the East are a living, breathing logistical disaster, but considering the number of humans and bears out there, they virtually never attack humans.

[TNhiker]

My thoughts?

don't need it....

Bear attacks in the southeast are a very very rare occurrence.....

In the 15 years that I've been hiking in the park----and have seen a good number of bears----I've never even been close to havin a bear attack me....

i don't hike with it nor do I carry bear bells (another waste of money to me)...

keep in mind---most bear attacks are for one of two reasons----gettin between mama and cubs.....and for food..

id rather educate my kids on those two factors than to arm them with something that you know will try out on each other....

[Teacher & Snacktime]

But my kids are not even teenagers, and I don't always take both with me. My youngest is only 8yo, and I'm thinking thru what is needed to best insure his safety should I somehow become incapacitated and the 8yo is alone miles from any trailhead.

Even scarier to think of what a panicked little kid could do with a misaimed can of chemicals...self-infliction is even more dangerous due to proximity. Teach them a good "bear song" to both help alleviate fear and to chase away the timid bears. Snacktime and I sing to the tune of "Over There":

Over There, Over There, There's a Bear, There's a Bear Over There
We were out here hiking, yes out here hiking
when all of a sudden it was there.
So beware, say a prayer,
There's a bear, there's a bear over there.
We'll be leaving......oh yes, we're leaving
and we won't come back
while that bear is over there.

Snacktime is older than your guys, and substantially larger I'm sure, but that doesn't make him unafraid of the unknown. I've found that when he shows signs of tension or things seem "too quiet" in the woods, I'll start singing this. He'll join in soon and we'll both hike along a little faster (the cadence) singing this aloud and proud, and the nervousness subsides.

Our little guys are probably not as endangered by what's in the woods as we believe them to be, and if we don't transfer fear to them they will probably not develop it themselves. Anyway, little things like this help.

[Feral Bill]

This is what we use"
Since you asked:
(Please respect my copyright, no commercial use w/o permission)

Tune: Hello Mary Lou

Walking down the trail one day
Cast your big brown eyes my way
Looking at me like I was your lunch
Staring at your mighty jaws
Shining teeth and razor claws
I began to get an awful hunch

I thought hello Mister Bear, goodbye heart
Intestines, stomach, liver, kidneys too
It’s you, Mister Bear, tear me apart
So hello Mister Bear, goodbye heart

Earlier I caught the scent
Of a pile of excrement
Pepper spray and bear poop full of bells
Now it’s starting to make sense
Wish I hadn’t been so dense
Things for me are going not so well

I said hello Mister Bear, goodbye heart
Intestines, stomach, liver, kidneys too
It’s you, Mister Bear, tear me apart
So hello Mister Bear, goodbye heart

Looking up what did I see?
My pal getting set to flee
Said I “to out-run bears you cannot do”
Looking tall and fit and thin
Speaking with a silly grin
He says “All I need’s to outrun you”

And so hello Mister Bear, goodbye heart
Intestines, stomach, liver, kidneys too
It’s you, Mister Bear, tear me apart
So hello Mister Bear, goodbye heart

I got scared and dropped my pack
Didn't want to be your snack
Griz don't climb so I went up a tree
You stood up and looked around
Pulled that tree right from the ground
Can't believe what's happening to me

(alternate verse for east)
I’ve heard bears can't run downhill
So I took off with a will
Trying to save body, mind and soul
Now it seems that I’m mistaken
And I’m being overtaken
Bears can’t run downhill but they sure can roll.

I cried hello Mister Bear, goodbye heart
Intestines, stomach, liver, kidneys too
It’s you, Mister Bear, tear me apart
So hello Mister Bear, goodbye heart

I'm a person, you're a beast
shouldn’t matter in the least
Don't you think that we could just be friends?
I can see you disagree
Things are looking grim for me
I'm afraid that this must be the end

Also DR Seuss Waltzing With Bears

[rocketsocks]

I'm wondering if you can even legally give kids bear spray??? I like the advice I'm hearing here from others. I gotta agree also education is the way to go, But Hookoo, only you know your kids maturity level...but like Teacher says, kids do some foolish things every now and again. I'm sure there are parts of the Country where it is common place for kids to have and use spray, like that place out in CA. Mamuth lake maybe???...I'll bet those kids have been schooled in the ways of it's use....good topic. HooKooDooKou

[HooKooDooKu]

Our little guys are probably not as endangered by what's in the woods as we believe them to be, and if we don't transfer fear to them they will probably not develop it themselves. Anyway, little things like this help.

I know the boys are not in much danger when we go off in the woods. If I were really afraid, I wouldn't take them out there by myself.

But I also try to teach them a healthy respect for the dangers the back country presents (such as the inability to simply call 911 if someone gets hurt).

Taking them in the back country by myself presents the obvious danger that something could happen to me and they might find themselves effectively alone in the woods. To mitigate that risk, I've taught them the importance of leaving an itinerary with someone staying behind, 'sheltering in place' (for them) as being safer than trying to hike out of the woods alone, and I always try to make sure each person always has some water with them (so that the need to find water doesn't over-ride the need to shelter in place... perhaps for several days).

I recently saw a young teen (about 13) hiking in the woods with his father. I was also told a story by my older brother of the time he was using a payphone near Sugarland's Visitor's center late one evening and encountered a large enough pack of coyotes that he decided it was prudent to retreat to his car. Putting those two things together made me think providing them some means of defense against their relatively small size.

I know that at a minimum, if I did this, I would have to buy extra bear spray so that we could use it for some training purposes. I also think I my boy behave enough in the back country that "playing" with bear spray (at least not at their current age) would be a problem.

But at the same time, I can appreciate and will contemplate the suggestions made above that basically boil down to many believing the risks don't out weight the benefits.

[HooKooDooKu]

I'm wondering if you can even legally give kids bear spray???

I can't imaging any park ranger taking issue with a minor, under the supervision of an adult, possessing bear spray.

I did find this web page that seems to summaries pepper spray legalities for the various states. Add that to the fact that GSMNP rules specifically allow people to carry bear spray "for the strict purpose of protection against bodily harm from aggressive wildlife", and it would seem that it would be legal, at least in GSMNP.

[TNhiker]

I was also told a story by my older brother of the time he was using a payphone near Sugarland's Visitor's center late one evening and encountered a large enough pack of coyotes that he decided it was prudent to retreat to his car

when i look up the definition for "story", i find this---"an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.".....

and that's what i think this is...

although they do exist in the Park and the area around the park (ive seen one in knoxville)-----ive never once heard of a coyote attacking anyone in the Park.......

its kinda instilling fear.......

[Teacher & Snacktime]

I can't imaging any park ranger taking issue with a minor, under the supervision of an adult, possessing bear spray.

No, they wouldn't fine the child....they'd take it away and then you'd be in trouble.

[shelb]

Our Boy Scout Troop used to have leaders who were freaked out about carrying bear spray every hike... What I noticed is that the kids were never educated because the adults felt the bear spray was the end-all.

When my husband and I started hiking some tried to convince us to carry it. We decided to learn how to react and how to educate the youth hiking -
NOTE: This pertains to the midwest and eastern US... I am not sure if the bears in the western US are different!

[HooKooDooKu]

when i look up the definition for "story", i find this---"an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.".....

and that's what i think this is...

although they do exist in the Park and the area around the park (ive seen one in knoxville)-----ive never once heard of a coyote attacking anyone in the Park.......

its kinda instilling fear.......

The conversation my brother and I were having at the time and the way the story was recounted didn't leave me with any feelings that he was making anything up.
As for coyote attacks in the park... yea, I've never heard of one. They seem to be pretty reclusive given that in all my hikes I've only ever seen one, and they were pretty skittish.

But then again, seldom do coyote's encounter lone children in the woods.

But I can still buy the argument that the odds of a 'bad' wildlife encounter are remote enough to possibly not out-weight the risks of carrying bear spray.

[HooKooDooKu]

No, they wouldn't fine the child....they'd take it away and they you'd be in trouble.

So long as we're talking 'bear spray' and not 'pepper spray', I don't think there is an issue with a minor carrying bear spray.

For one, the rules GSMNP has in place governing bear spray doesn't include any limitation to minors.
From the link I posted earlier:

Bear pepper spray may be carried by hikers within Great Smoky Mountains National Park for the strict purpose of protection against bodily harm from aggressive wildlife. It should not be applied to people, tents, packs, other equipment or surrounding area as a repellent. Bear pepper spray is a chemical formula designed specifically to deter aggressive or attacking bears. It must be commercially manufactured and labeled as "Bear Pepper Spray" and be registered with the Environmental Protection Agency and individual states. Bear spray must contain between 1% to 2% of the active ingredients capsaicin and related capsaicinoids.

When I try to do an internet search for pepper spray regulations, there seems to generally not be many restrictions that I can find regarding minors. It would seem that only some states prohibit the sale of pepper spray to minors... but that doesn't seem to be a general rule.

So as best I can determine by looking for laws regaring pepper spray in TN & NC, and the rules published by NPS, it would seem that bear spray is legal for minors to carry in GSMNP.

[BuckeyeBill]

As a former law enforcement officer. trust me when I say the kids would only spray each other one time. As part of our training we had to take the full effect of pepper spray in the face. This convinced me to never spray anyone but a hostile subject. Even then you get fallout from them.

[yerbyray]

I'm wondering if you can even legally give kids bear spray??? I like the advice I'm hearing here from others. I gotta agree also education is the way to go, But Hookoo, only you know your kids maturity level...but like Teacher says, kids do some foolish things every now and again. I'm sure there are parts of the Country where it is common place for kids to have and use spray, like that place out in CA. Mamuth lake maybe???...I'll bet those kids have been schooled in the ways of it's use....good topic. HooKooDooKou

NEW JERSEY: Legal with restrictions.

Any non-felon 18 or over may possess for the purpose of self-defense "one pocket-sized device which contains and releases not more than three-quarters of an ounce of chemical substance not ordinarily capable of lethal use or of inflicting serious bodily injury, but rather is intended to produce temporary physical discomfort or disability through being vaporized or otherwise dispensed in the air". Section 2C:39-6i.

In Tennessee....its just listed as "Legal" son no age restrictions

Where I live in NC...NORTH CAROLINA: Legal with restrictions.

Possession and use of self-defense sprays is lawful for non felons so long as the device does not exceed 150 cubic centimeters (150cc). Section 14-401.6.

[yerbyray]

As a former law enforcement officer. trust me when I say the kids would only spray each other one time. As part of our training we had to take the full effect of pepper spray in the face. This convinced me to never spray anyone but a hostile subject. Even then you get fallout from them.

It's the same here in NC. I never have understood the logic with spray or tasers....to be qualified to use, you gotta be a guinea pig with it. Thank goodness that doesn't apply to sidearms

I have a six year-old daughter and we go hiking and she is getting into overnighter trips this year. I honestly hadn't thought about arming her with OC spray but I think that I will. A good logical fact-based lecture about the "do's" and "don't" of the stuff should be enough to keep fratricide to a minimum.

Like you said, one good whiff of it and no one would want another.

[HooKooDooKu]

Several months ago, someone posted a link to a video where a guy talked about bear safety and showed the proper use of bear spray. Anyone still have a link to that video? It would be a great addition to this thread.

[TNhiker]

to be qualified to use, you gotta be a guinea pig with it.

yup.....

we (wbir) did a story many a year ago about one of our local sheriffs departments training with tasers...

my reporter was too much of a p*ssy to take the tase-----so i did it......

i would never do a pepper spray though----as the results of that last longer than a 3 second tase.....