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  1. #1

    Default Leave your religious message in towns!

    The trail is not a place to convert people! all through VA, Hercules (class of '99) has been leaving religious books in shelters. please inform people that this is not a storage shed, you pack it in you pack it out! this stuff becomes mouse fodder and then people complain about the mice. this goes for political messages too! it is your right to say what you please, but don't try to bring it out to the trail and nail it to a shelter.

    thanks,

    magic
    ga>me'03
    ga>me'04

  2. #2
    Registered User brack's Avatar
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    you dont support trail magic do you?

  3. #3

    Default

    Does this go for paperbacks, too? How about food and other trail magic? Matches? Bug spray?

    How about shelter registers?

    I actually picked up a couple different paperbacks in shelters during my thru-hike. I enjoyed reading them along the way and then leaving them for another hiker to enjoy. One was Krakauer's "Into the Wild", which another hiker had been telling me about just days before I found it in the shleter. What a grand coincidence. Another was a book that Tinka had in his car when he gave me a wonderfully needed magic ride into town during a snowstorm. We chatted about the book, and then a month later I found the same book in a shelter signed by Tinka. Both cool coincidences and I'm glad the books were left behind.

    I'm not sure how leaving a book in a high-impact camping area like an AT shelter violates LNT ethics. I saw lots of books, and I only cared to pick up 2 of them. The others I ignored.

    It was darn simple to ignore what I didn't care to read.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by magic_game03
    The trail is not a place to convert people! all through VA, Hercules (class of '99) has been leaving religious books in shelters. please inform people that this is not a storage shed, you pack it in you pack it out! this stuff becomes mouse fodder and then people complain about the mice. this goes for political messages too! it is your right to say what you please, but don't try to bring it out to the trail and nail it to a shelter.

    thanks,

    magic
    ga>me'03
    ga>me'04
    I do appreciate your concern, however it is actually valuable as fire starter. Please all you bible thumpers only infect the shelters with material without plastic covers. Please pack those out. As Moon Monster said, books are good. Read them or burn them, it's all good.

  5. #5
    Registered User A-Train's Avatar
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    To me, Bibles and religious and political messages are like Trail Magic. I never get why people complain and get so bent out of shape about them. Its simple. If you don't agree, don't take part. Simply ignore it. No one is making you read thru the bible and no one is making you drink that soda. If someone were reading the bible out loud at shelters, well thats a different story.

    Moonmonster- I believe someone I hiked with for a long time was reading 'Into the Wild' down south, maybe It was Grunt or Dimples. I wonder if it was the same copy. We were all passing around novels and then ditching them in shelters (Into Thin Air, Ishmael, Walk Across America). I'm glad if these novels got well circulated, that was the point.
    Anything's within walking distance if you've got the time.
    GA-ME 03, LT 04/06, PCT 07'

  6. #6
    Section Hiker 350 miles DebW's Avatar
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    As a maintainer, I mostly agree with Magic. Paper (books, magazines, toilet paper) will become mouse fodder sooner or later, enhancing the mouse population and making the shelters dirty and hard to clean. If I find a paperback book in a shelter I might leave it if it's likely to be picked up soon and isn't yet mouse chewed. If it's obviously been there awhile and the mice have begun to enjoy it, I pack it out. Religious, political, or other printed material should not be left in shelters with the intention that it will stay there and be read by passing hikers. Likewise, food should not be left in shelters. If you have extra food, pack it out or give it to another hiker.

  7. #7

    Default Another use for "magazines" left in shelters

    Last spring while hiking the AT from Killington to Hanover, three of us arrived at a shelter soaking wet and freezing. There was cut and split wood piled ready for a fire (trail magic? Someone had worked hard on it), but we had nothing dry to start it with--until we found that someone had left a very graphic porno magazine in the shelter. It made great tinder!

  8. #8
    Spanky MEPA '02, MEGA '08 spanky's Avatar
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    Gee whiz... I noticed that you hike the A.T. two times and yet, are still that cynical? Maybe you should try hiking the A.T. solo southbound like I did. You might see things alot differently when you come into the shelter after hiking alone for weeks at a time... a mouse is a great little guy to spend time with ya know.

    Spanky (been there, done that- for Jesus no less!)
    SOBO '02

  9. #9
    Registered User weary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train
    To me, Bibles and religious and political messages are like Trail Magic. I never get why people complain and get so bent out of shape about them. Its simple. If you don't agree, don't take part. Simply ignore it. No one is making you read thru the bible and no one is making you drink that soda.
    In Maine, and I believe also in the official guidelines of ATC, maintainers are told to remove everything left in the shelters, that has not been put there by the maintaining club.

    That includes, books, bibles, clothing, trash, food, business cards -- everything. Why? Ninety percent of such stuff never gets used. Eventually it rots, gets chewed by animals, molds, what not. Maintainers have to pack out most of it anyway.

    Stuff left is essentially litter, and like litter, once it collects more is certain to be added to the pile. When a weekend hiker finds he has brought too much food or unneeded clothing, the easy solution is to leave the surplus in the shelter. That's why all our shelters have carry in, carry out signs and leave no trace signs.

    The signs are obeyed until a violation occurs. Then stuff accumulates rapidly unless a maintainer shows up quickly and carts it all out.

    The comment that such junk is not really a violation of LNT, illustrates why I think it is a meaningless slogan. My God. It sits in the shelters in a pile. Of course, it's a trace. It's more than a trace. It's litter that breeds more litter, unless taken away quickly. Leave no trace is an impossible goal. Everyone leaves foot prints in the mud. Holes from hiking sticks in the trail soils. The result. LNT becomes just another meaningless set of words to be ignored.

    The evidence is clear that the old "Carry In, Carry out," was far more effective, because you either did it or you didn't. There was no ambiguity. Unfortunately, "Leave No Trace" has evolved into a business, that employs scores, probably hundreds, of people. The profit motive remains alive and well even on the trails, and Leave No Trace will remain with us until someone invents a more profitable slogan.

    Weary

  10. #10
    Spanky MEPA '02, MEGA '08 spanky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magic_game03
    The trail is not a place to convert people! all through VA, Hercules (class of '99) has been leaving religious books in shelters. please inform people that this is not a storage shed, you pack it in you pack it out! this stuff becomes mouse fodder and then people complain about the mice. this goes for political messages too! it is your right to say what you please, but don't try to bring it out to the trail and nail it to a shelter.

    thanks,

    magic
    ga>me'03
    ga>me'04
    You are right of course! But, my post was meant more as a light hearted jab at majic's premise for thinking only religious books qualify as mouse fodder. I suppose, it would have made more of an impact if I would have printed out his original post and then put copies of it (and our responses to hiim) in every shelter on the A.T.

    That might irritate he and everyone else but at least it will keep God's little mice warm for the winter!

    Best Quote I ever heard on the trail:

    Mother Goose (Florida - Canada IAT '02) I met her at Rainbow Shelter in Maine. This is the advice she gave me as I was embarking on my hike southbound to Georgia...

    "Stay away from the women in town!" With that, she trudged off northbound and into oblivion. Gotta love it!

    Happy hiking my friend!

  11. #11
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by magic_game03
    The trail is not a place to convert people! all through VA, Hercules (class of '99) has been leaving religious books in shelters. please inform people that this is not a storage shed, you pack it in you pack it out! this stuff becomes mouse fodder and then people complain about the mice. this goes for political messages too! it is your right to say what you please, but don't try to bring it out to the trail and nail it to a shelter.
    Your thread seems to assume that by leaving religious books in shelters that Hercules is trying to convert people. Maybe he, along with those who leave novels, is simply leaving something for people to read. Did you notice if he was standing there forcing people to read? And was he actually nailing books to shelters? Or maybe you feel he was also trying to convert the mice as they consumed the "fodder."
    Seems to me Hercules is just probably practicing his freedoms as guaranteed by our Constitution and what he feels is his calling based on his religious beliefs. You don't have to read what he leaves, nor do you have the right to impose on him what you believe is the perfect hike.
    One thing I've learned in my short time in the hiking community is there are diverse views about the AT and about how you should hike. I've decided not to get too involved in discussing those things and just do what I feel is good for me by enjoying the outdoors, doing something for the environment, and being thankful I live in America.
    Praise the Lord!
    "Just trying to keep life simple."

  12. #12
    Springer - Front Royal Lilred's Avatar
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    I stayed in a shelter one night that had a bible in the tube along with the register. Kept it from getting chewed up. I'm glad it was there. I spent the evening as the sun went down enjoying a good read. Was one of my most spiritual moments on the trail. Too bad some people think it isn't 'necessary or practical'. I guess some want it their way, for everybody.
    "It was on the first of May, in the year 1769, that I resigned my domestic happiness for a time, and left my family and peaceable habitation on the Yadkin River, in North Carolina, to wander through the wilderness of America." - Daniel Boone

  13. #13
    Spanky MEPA '02, MEGA '08 spanky's Avatar
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    That's cool...!

  14. #14
    Hammock and Bicycle camping Crash's Avatar
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    It's all about how YOU treat other people! That's one of the major themes in The Good Book. So even if you don't believe in God, you can still get personal enlightenment from reading it.

    And after reading some of the other threads about this subject, I think both sides need to remember how to treat others.
    When the Trail calls you,
    its not on your cellphone!

  15. #15

    Default bibles left in shelters

    The bibles are left by people who wish to share their faith. Others of different faiths, Atheists, Agnostics, etc have a choice to read them or not. The ones that leave the bible(s) or "inspirational material" should also realize when it's very cold or wet out, some hikers will use it to start a fire.
    I'd rather the bible(s) be left at the shelters than to have people in my face "spewing" their gospels and trying to "save me." I have my own thank you very much and you have yours.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by weary
    The comment that such junk is not really a violation of LNT, illustrates why I think it is a meaningless slogan. My God. It sits in the shelters in a pile. Of course, it's a trace. It's more than a trace. It's litter that breeds more litter, unless taken away quickly. Leave no trace is an impossible goal. Everyone leaves foot prints in the mud. Holes from hiking sticks in the trail soils. The result. LNT becomes just another meaningless set of words to be ignored.
    Weary
    I believe your interpretation of LNT shows that ethic to be meaningless more than saying literature left in shelters does. LNT is not meant to be an impossible goal because it does not mean to litterally "leave no trace."

    Rather, it is a proposed set of ethical rules. At the center of those rules is to limit your impact to zones already highly impacted in the wilds if such exist. The AT itself and most areas along its corridor are already highly impacted. Shelters, particularly, are high impact zones and it is best, according to LNT ethics, to more often than not perform most of your impacting activities around them rather than being diffuse.

    Perhaps it is better to not leave a single skin cell or eyelash or even a molecule of your exhaled CO2 in an AT shelter, but I say: since the shelters already attract the most damaging impact to the naturality of the AT-area, simply shrug your shoulders at something as benign as an additional stack of paper and glue sitting in the corner.

    To everyone who doesn;t want religious messages left in shelters: why have you not said the same thing about the registers?

    (A-Train: my copy of Into the Wild was left by WalkOn who was up front near you at somepoint I think)

  17. #17
    Registered User weary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Monster
    LNT is not meant to be an impossible goal because it does not mean to litterally "leave no trace."
    Then why not use words that do convey "litterally" what you mean? Communication is difficult enough without deliberately using meaningless code words.

    Leave no trace served some purpose in the late 60s and early 1970s when it was introduced towards the end of the era when people were still cutting evergreen boughs for beds and every fireplace had it's near by can dump.

    But the guy who invented the concept, and was rediculed in a beautiful piece in the Wall Street Journal that still sticks in my mind 30 years later about a Paul Petzolt (sp) who advocated drinking your used dish water while in the woods.

    I laughed at the idea until it dawned on me that that was what I did, only I didn't think of it as dishwater, just my final cup of coffee rinsing away the dregs of my oatmeal.

    Paul introduced the idea. He had abandoned the idea as counterproductive by the time I knew him in the last 10 years of his life. His point: It was an impossible goal, and therefore people automatically tuned out the message.

    LNT has become almost a cult -- and like most cults is perpetuated by the profit motive. Of course, for the true believers LNT is an ethical and philosphical concept. I have no problem with that.

    The problem is that only one outdoor user in a thousand reads the manuals and takes the course. All most hear is an obviously meaningless slogan that even the proponents don't practice.

    I once sat quietly while a LNT advocate lectured me on her philosophy and then watched as she walked away with lug-soled boots and Lekis poking two holes in trail with every step.

    Weary

  18. #18

    Default

    As a trail maintainer I am absolutly opposed to anyone leaving anything on or near the trail. "Trail Magic" (or just passing along stuff) should be done on a person to person basis. If I have extra food (or anything) I ask hikers if they want it, If not, it gets packed out. I've seen printed material handed out, just gets thrown on the ground most of the time. Litter, I have yet to see a firepit that isn't just full of everything (non burnable), its terrible. Littering is a bad habit which some consider a way of life. Hikers/backpackers should be the last to litter. I just wish it was true. PS: I have actually seen USFS employees litter. I also wish they (USFS employees) wouldn't burn "Love Letters" like was done in Colorado a few years back, Thousands of acres and much wildlife destroyed.

  19. #19
    Long Distance Hiker Chef2000's Avatar
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    Default shelter trash

    Just removed a Readers Digest today from October Mt Shelter on a trip to remove blowdowns. The shelter is very clean, and some had stayed last night.

    In 2000 there was a guy who had a jesus loves you sign on the back of his pack, He ended up breaking his leg

    As a shelter maintainer, please pack everything out. And try not burn all your trash either.

    Thanx

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chef2000
    In 2000 there was a guy who had a jesus loves you sign on the back of his pack, He ended up breaking his leg Thanx
    So....are you saying Jesus didn't love him? My knowledge of Jesus leads me to believe that Jesus did love him...he just had an accident!
    "Just trying to keep life simple."

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