Leave your religious message in towns!

[spanky]

We seem to be getting all theological here folks! What about the mice? Don't they have a voice in all this?

[eyahiker]

You'll have to ask someone who thinks they were a mouse in a former life

[Mountain Dew]

I heard a few people claim that they burn the religious articles they find in shelters. Would you actually burn a Bible to start a fire ? I carried a very small Bible on my 2003 thru-hike and even got asked if somebody sould borrow it a few times by my fellow hikers. I told them to carry it for a day then ask me again. hahaahaa There are TONS of long distance hikers in the Bible. Read the book Acts in the Bible and see many examples of this. Issiah was a thru-hiker....

Amazing Grace.....I know the person that left those porn magazines in the shelter. I tried to get them from him the night before to burn as a fire starter, but he/she wouldn't give them up !!! It was cold those nights huh ?

Question for those of you that say Bibles have no place in shelters.... Do you also avoid the church hostels or the trail magic given by churches ?

Go in peace. Your journey has the Lord's approval. ( Judges 18:6 )
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

[Chappy]

I heard a few people claim that they burn the religious articles they find in shelters. Would you actually burn a Bible to start a fire ? I carried a very small Bible on my 2003 thru-hike and even got asked if somebody sould borrow it a few times by my fellow hikers. I told them to carry it for a day then ask me again. hahaahaa There are TONS of long distance hikers in the Bible. Read the book Acts in the Bible and see many examples of this. Issiah was a thru-hiker....

Amazing Grace.....I know the person that left those porn magazines in the shelter. I tried to get them from him the night before to burn, but he/she would give them up !!! It was cold those nights huh ?

Question for those of you that say Bibles have no place in shelters.... Do you also avoid the church hostels or the trail magic given by churches ?

Go in peace. Your journey has the Lord's approval. ( Judges 18:6 )
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

Paul was definitely a long distance hiker!

You raise an interesting subject with your statement about churches providing trail magic. Did that happen often? Also, how are hikers accepted in churches along the trail?

[eyahiker]

I'm with you guys on this one. You're right the Bible is FULL of really cool hiker, nature, mountain outdoor references, after all the Creator wrote it and he should know

Here's a couple I really like....

Psalms 27:5 - For he will hide me in his shelter in the day of trouble; he will conceal me under the cover of his tent, he will set me high upon a rock

Isaiah 4:6 - It will be for a shade by day from the heat, and for a refuge and a shelter from the storm and rain.

Matthew 24:28 - Wherever children of God are, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Revelation 12:14 - But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

I'm not sure that just leaving around Bibles is a good thing though, one can't assume that they will be used, or read or appreciated. Some people really get disgusted with readers digest too.........

This is a pretty cool thread, I've learned alot about other folks, and it's a hard one, have to side on both sides in certain instances, but then again, a house divided against itself.............

[Blue Jay]

Paul was definitely a long distance hiker!

You raise an interesting subject with your statement about churches providing trail magic. Did that happen often? Also, how are hikers accepted in churches along the trail?

There are many churches along the trail that go WAY out of the way to help and shelter hikers. I'd list them but I'd not want to leave one out. Even a nonbeliever would come to love the churches of the AT.

[Alligator]

Would you actually burn a Bible to start a fire ?
Question for those of you that say Bibles have no place in shelters.... Do you also avoid the church hostels or the trail magic given by churches ?

I'm really not inclined to burning the Bible unless I absolutely had to for personal survival. But I carry white gas so this is doubtful. However, I have burned religious pamphlets over lunch before.

I certainly do ask that hikers refrain from leaving religious materials in shelters and books in general. While I may pick up a few stray pieces of foil or plastic, I am not inclined to packing out books. Which, fyi, are generally chewed up by the mice during the times of year that I hike.

Yes I avoid church hostels, but I'm only a section hiker so they are never necessary. Since I generally avoid the thru-hiker pack, I am often not around for any trail magic. If there was a cooler with a note saying "compliments of X religious institution" I'd certainly grab a beer out of there. (or a soda). But I would avoid anything organized with people from the institution because while trail magic should not have any strings attached, this type of situation has a high probability of some form of religious overtones.

[rickb]

"I carried a very small Bible on my 2003 thru-hike and even got asked if somebody sould borrow it a few times by my fellow hikers. I told them to carry it for a day then ask me again."

That's funny.

I guess that's better than telling them to go to hell. ;-)

Rick B

(Who appreciates irony, even if you we only joshing, like I suspect)

[Tha Wookie]

In Maine, and I believe also in the official guidelines of ATC, maintainers are told to remove everything left in the shelters, that has not been put there by the maintaining club.

That includes, books, bibles, clothing, trash, food, business cards -- everything. Why? Ninety percent of such stuff never gets used. Eventually it rots, gets chewed by animals, molds, what not. Maintainers have to pack out most of it anyway.

Stuff left is essentially litter, and like litter, once it collects more is certain to be added to the pile. When a weekend hiker finds he has brought too much food or unneeded clothing, the easy solution is to leave the surplus in the shelter. That's why all our shelters have carry in, carry out signs and leave no trace signs.

The signs are obeyed until a violation occurs. Then stuff accumulates rapidly unless a maintainer shows up quickly and carts it all out.

The comment that such junk is not really a violation of LNT, illustrates why I think it is a meaningless slogan. My God. It sits in the shelters in a pile. Of course, it's a trace. It's more than a trace. It's litter that breeds more litter, unless taken away quickly. Leave no trace is an impossible goal. Everyone leaves foot prints in the mud. Holes from hiking sticks in the trail soils. The result. LNT becomes just another meaningless set of words to be ignored.

The evidence is clear that the old "Carry In, Carry out," was far more effective, because you either did it or you didn't. There was no ambiguity. Unfortunately, "Leave No Trace" has evolved into a business, that employs scores, probably hundreds, of people. The profit motive remains alive and well even on the trails, and Leave No Trace will remain with us until someone invents a more profitable slogan.

Weary

Weary,

You obviously know very little about LNT, Inc. Absolutely no one is getting rich off of it. It was founded by public-funded researchers like David Cole (Forest Service) and Jeff Marion (Virginia Tech, USGS), and of course the National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS)to limit impacts on trails, and the money is used to circulate educational materials, training, and to conduct reasearch on trail impacts.

"Pack it in, Pack it out" messages were not replaced by LNT. In fact, much the LNT knowledge educates the trail user to understand WHY they should not leave litter, intsead of just telling them not to do so. These messages work together.

In addition, LNT focuses on many other things that the above mentioned slogan doesn't capture, like ways to prevent environmental impacts (litter being a more social impact) such as cutting switchbacks (causes excessive erosion) and using camp stoves instead of having a fire at every camp.

I'm under the impression that you were just looking for something to say or you don't actually get out to trailheads and read the guidelines yourself, so I'll stop here.

I am slightly defensive because I know personally LNT researchers and educators, and they largley sacrifice financial excess out of love for nature, the trails, and the exerience that you and I have out there.

Read up! www.lnt.org

[Lone Wolf]

The caretaker dude of Wiley shelter in NY doesn't practice no LNT or "pack it in, pack it out". There's dozens of Books, magazines and newspapers at that place. He does "safety checks" 3-4 times a day too.

[Tha Wookie]

On my thru, I was disgusted to see biblical "tracks" not just in the shelters, but STREWN ABOUT ON THE TRAIL ITSELF in somewhat strategic and intentional locations. For instance, I saw some stuck on tree limbs so a hiker would hit his head on it.

As a Christian, this really hurt me. This type of tastless psuedo-evangelism belongs no where on the AT. Frankly, it makes Christians look bad. Moveover, it highlights the near-complete degredation of modern-day structured Christianity into an absolute mindless circus. People that do such things are so caught up in the Dogma that they are force-fed in church that they ignore the purpose for it all.

Take, for instance, the track on the tree. As I pocketed the track (and cleaned up the other litter left by psuedo-evangelists), I missed something: THE TREE! I was suddenly ripped away from my pure walk in God's land and forced to focus on tastless litter.

It makes me assume that the litterers in this case are so UNCONNECTED with Gods presence that they don't see how disgraceful their actions were. This is probably because, instead of listening to God and acting by His will, they are acting based on the misguidance of their flawful church members. I assume this, because what they were doing was effectually COVERING UP GOD'S MESSAGE with dogma!

In a man-made environment, these tracks might be appropriate -but not ON the trail. It is incredible sef-defeating, in my opinion.

[Sarge]

I'm with you guys on this one. You're right the Bible is FULL of really cool hiker, nature, mountain outdoor references, after all the Creator wrote it and he should know

I've always liked this one:

Deuteronomy 23:13 "And you shall have an implement among your equipment, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and turn and cover your refuse."

Sarge

[Chappy]

There are many churches along the trail that go WAY out of the way to help and shelter hikers. I'd list them but I'd not want to leave one out. Even a nonbeliever would come to love the churches of the AT.

Thanks, Blue Jay. I've been in the field for a few days and just getting back to WB. Really good to hear the churches along the AT have that reputation. Wish all did. I look forward to experiencing their hospitality and message.

[weary]

Weary,

You obviously know very little about LNT, Inc. Absolutely no one is getting rich off of it. It was founded by public-funded researchers like David Cole (Forest Service) and Jeff Marion (Virginia Tech, USGS), and of course the National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS)to limit impacts on trails, and the money is used to circulate educational materials, training, and to conduct reasearch on trail impacts.
]

I don't know about getting rich. But it is a business with employees that get paid and which protects its slogan and its pay checks by requiring organzations that use the words "Leave No Trace" to pay a fee.

My objection to the slogan is that the vast majority of hikers tend to tune out message because it obviously can't be achieved.

If the slogan had any meaning to most hikers the vast and growing popularity of sharppointed hiking poles that leave a trace with every step would never have happened.

I do know that Paul Petzolt (sp), the guy that founded NOLS and originated the slogan, abandoned it towards the end of his long life for the same reason I do. The slogan is impossible to achieve and thus is ignored by most hikers.

Weary

[Tha Wookie]

Would you rather it say "leave no perceptable trace"? Leaving no trace is not impossible. I can do it. So can you.


Their efforts are now seen on many maps, trailheads, and pubic trail information sources. Without it, people would not know as much about there impacts. I do agree that the rigidity that comes with an institutionalized message might alianate some people. But it's simply better than not having that inforamation at all.

One of the major reasons they exist is because after the 60's backpacking boom, managers went crazy with regulations and restrictions. But soon social and environmental scientists stepped in and offered an "education over regulation" alternative. The idea is to positively empower the trail user to make the least impacting behavior choices instead of hunting them down and issuing citation tickets.

Don't get hung up on the term. I understand you like to debate things for debating sake (as I see from many other posts), but this is an issue that I believe is important to support and promote because the alternative is not appealing.

[steve hiker]

There are many churches along the trail that go WAY out of the way to help and shelter hikers. Even a nonbeliever would come to love the churches of the AT.

Like a bear coming to shelters to find food? I dunno Blue Jay, some of those hikers might become aggressive.

[weary]

....this is an issue that I believe is important to support and promote because the alternative is not appealing.

I'm not opposed to the effort of the LNT organization. I just wish they would develop a message that more hikers could relate to. Remember this conversation began from the claim that leaving stuff in shelters was not a violation of "Leave No Trace."

The mere fact that the claim can be taken seriously tells me that somehow LNT does not resonate with ordinary hikers. I've been a trail maintainer for MATC for at least 20 years -- maybe 25 -- and an unafilliated remover of trail and shelter trash for at least twice that long.

The environmental movement of the 60s and early 70s resulted in a major improvement in the cleanliness of trails and shelters. I've seen a reversal of that trend in recent years. I attribute it to a flawed message -- a message with good intentions -- but a message that for some reason outdoor people increasingly are ignoring.

But maybe the public is just reflecting the anti-enviromental mood of Bush -- or perhaps Bush is simply recognizing the anti-environmental mood of the public. Whatever. Its something I intend to oppose for the rest of my days -- and not just because I like to argue.

Weary

[eyahiker]

Let's move on from the whole scenario of Bears coming in and eating you, or keep in to the other post Bear Scared.

BACK TO THE SUBJECT........
It's too bad that the LNT philosphy is not adhered too, nothing like setting your tent up in the rain/dark on someone's unburried WASTE.

Religeous messages are put out there by lots of folks, I was hiking in the middle of the forest, several MILES back here in FL and there was a 'kiosk' set up by the Hari Krishna's, they hauled this ENORMOUS tent way back there, it was quite the site...........I think there was going to be a Rainbow Gathering or something there the next week - talk about TRASHED, it was amazing to go back and witness the destruction of the forest these folks left, I was truly disappointed.

[Lint]

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."-James Madison

"Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if there be one, he must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear."-Thomas Jefferson

[FatMan]

I encourage everyone to pray for me on the trail. I need all the help I can get. Just do so silently.