Agreed. . . !!Originally Posted by Tin Man
Not like it aint gonna happen again. There will always be a next time. In the woods, s**t happens sometimes. The guy got out alive and well. Just who are we to be critical when we dont have his account. I remember someone sayin this on another topic
Nice!!!Not like it aint gonna happen again. There will always be a next time. In the woods, s**t happens sometimes. The guy got out alive and well. Just who are we to be critical when we dont have his account. I remember someone sayin this on another topic
The emotions from this weekend are beginning to settle and before this thread goes dead I’d like to share a few observations which may be instructive to those interested in learning.
I am one of Ken’s friends from Michigan who went down to VA to help in the effort. I can tell you I was blown away by the professionalism and the response of the VA SAR groups. The systematic, evidence-based way that they approached this search made me very confident in their efforts to find Ken—but that did not relieve my emotions when it came to imagining what condition he might be in when found. Nothing could address my emotions other than finding him.
Ron has well stated what needs to be said about Ken accepting the assistance and interactions of other hikers. That is one lesson that should be learned to avoid a re-occurrence for Ken as he rightfully continues his hiking.
I would like to address some other decision points from which any of us who hike in groups can learn… not Ken’s actions, but the actions of those around him. Actions which certainly were not causal in nature, but which certainly impacted how events unfolded.
I have lead group hikes in the past and will continue to lead them in the future, but I know I will do them a little differently from this point on. Following are some of the things I will do as a result of lessons learned.
1) I will require participants to clearly state any medical, personal or other pertinent limitations that they may have that will impact the group hike. I will also inform the participant tat this information will be shared with all other participants should they choose to join the group hike.I know many of us hike with people we have never or barely met before. In the future, I know I will be more careful in assessing the dynamic being established in a group and will do what I can to foster accountability.
2) I will share this information on individual limitations with all others in the group in advance, and will review these issues at the pre-trip briefing.
3) I will strongly encourage group participants to be mindful of the whereabouts of their fellow hikers at all times. Personally, I believe this business of “I’ll meet you at the shelter” should be reserved for casual acquaintances met along the trail, but not for organized group hikes. I don’t personally ascribe to the “we’re a group but we’re all hiking independently” philosophy. Either we’re a group or we’re not, and everyone needs to know exactly where things stand.
4) At exit, I will require the whole group to stay put until all hikers are out. One of the biggest factors in delaying the search for Ken was the fact that the group disbanded and then later needed to make groups decisions about what could of possibly happened.
When I met Ken as he was exiting the hospital, one of his more astounding comments was when he said he thought people were looking for him as soon as Monday, maybe even Sunday night. When we pointed out that that was far from the truth, he was absolutely shocked. After getting off the trail, he did many things right (staying put, making sure he had water, shelter, etc.). Had there been closer tabs upon his location and a more prompt identification of the fact that he was lost, I am certain that he would have been located much earlier and with much fewer resources expended. And I don’t think that is an unreasonable expectation to have of the hiking community.
I would encourage all of us to continue to follow this situation as the facts now unfold and more objective lessons are learned. I encourage everyone to think “how does this apply to me? And what can I do better as a result of this shared experience?” We can all do some reflecting upon what it means to be a hike leader, a group participant, and a member of the hiking community.
Please don’t take this missive as an attempt to place blame on any one person. I will admit that I have broken all of these lessons learned in the past just like anyone else. I’m simply broadcasting these thoughts in the hopes that we can all learn something from this experience.
Lastly, I’ll be joining Ron and many others in making sure that Ken is making an objective assessment of this experience, learning from it, and changing behavior. I just get the pleasure of doing it in person!
Hike safely!
Siler
GAME’00
LT’01
Thank you so much for your input.The emotions from this weekend are beginning to settle and before this thread goes dead I’d like to share a few observations which may be instructive to those interested in learning.
I am one of Ken’s friends from Michigan who went down to VA to help in the effort. I can tell you I was blown away by the professionalism and the response of the VA SAR groups. The systematic, evidence-based way that they approached this search made me very confident in their efforts to find Ken—but that did not relieve my emotions when it came to imagining what condition he might be in when found. Nothing could address my emotions other than finding him.
Ron has well stated what needs to be said about Ken accepting the assistance and interactions of other hikers. That is one lesson that should be learned to avoid a re-occurrence for Ken as he rightfully continues his hiking.
I would like to address some other decision points from which any of us who hike in groups can learn… not Ken’s actions, but the actions of those around him. Actions which certainly were not causal in nature, but which certainly impacted how events unfolded.
I have lead group hikes in the past and will continue to lead them in the future, but I know I will do them a little differently from this point on. Following are some of the things I will do as a result of lessons learned.
1) I will require participants to clearly state any medical, personal or other pertinent limitations that they may have that will impact the group hike. I will also inform the participant tat this information will be shared with all other participants should they choose to join the group hike.I know many of us hike with people we have never or barely met before. In the future, I know I will be more careful in assessing the dynamic being established in a group and will do what I can to foster accountability.
2) I will share this information on individual limitations with all others in the group in advance, and will review these issues at the pre-trip briefing.
3) I will strongly encourage group participants to be mindful of the whereabouts of their fellow hikers at all times. Personally, I believe this business of “I’ll meet you at the shelter” should be reserved for casual acquaintances met along the trail, but not for organized group hikes. I don’t personally ascribe to the “we’re a group but we’re all hiking independently” philosophy. Either we’re a group or we’re not, and everyone needs to know exactly where things stand.
4) At exit, I will require the whole group to stay put until all hikers are out. One of the biggest factors in delaying the search for Ken was the fact that the group disbanded and then later needed to make groups decisions about what could of possibly happened.
When I met Ken as he was exiting the hospital, one of his more astounding comments was when he said he thought people were looking for him as soon as Monday, maybe even Sunday night. When we pointed out that that was far from the truth, he was absolutely shocked. After getting off the trail, he did many things right (staying put, making sure he had water, shelter, etc.). Had there been closer tabs upon his location and a more prompt identification of the fact that he was lost, I am certain that he would have been located much earlier and with much fewer resources expended. And I don’t think that is an unreasonable expectation to have of the hiking community.
I would encourage all of us to continue to follow this situation as the facts now unfold and more objective lessons are learned. I encourage everyone to think “how does this apply to me? And what can I do better as a result of this shared experience?” We can all do some reflecting upon what it means to be a hike leader, a group participant, and a member of the hiking community.
Please don’t take this missive as an attempt to place blame on any one person. I will admit that I have broken all of these lessons learned in the past just like anyone else. I’m simply broadcasting these thoughts in the hopes that we can all learn something from this experience.
Lastly, I’ll be joining Ron and many others in making sure that Ken is making an objective assessment of this experience, learning from it, and changing behavior. I just get the pleasure of doing it in person!
Hike safely!
Siler
GAME’00
LT’01
Questions I have....I might have missed this but seems the first thing they would have searched was the AT between Punchbowl and the James River and the trails that intersected the AT between those two points. He was known to be going south bound. He was found on the Little Rocky Row Trail, I believe that's the name of it. Did no one search that trail? If they did, why did they not find him? Was he camping off the trail?
I'm glad it all worked out.
[COLOR="Blue"]Hokey Pokey [/COLOR]
Only the fool, the insane, or the irrationally hard-headed continue to do the same thing and expect different results.
Experience is the best teacher, but not the only one. One can learn from others. This is perhaps the best (most efficient) teacher, as it saves great wear-and-tear on self and others.
So, that being said, it is USEFUL to engage in Monday-morning quarterbacking, second-guessing, etc. This is how we learn.
Professional organizations conduct **After Action Reviews** to thoroughly figure out what happened and what can be done better next time. These discussions lead to **Best Practices**. Best Practices---which are shared among people through dialogue, seminars, and media---lead to improvements in performance, which is why the Virginia SAR performed so well. They did NOT have to learn everything themselves from "experience;" rather, they are part of the SAR "profession" and exchange Best Practices with other SAR groups.
It is essential that we discuss what Ken Knight did, and critique it, or we fail to benefit from an event from which many can learn.
One would hope that given Mr. Knight's serial experiences getting lost, that he will do the same. His situation was **avoidable**.
I walk the line.
You must live a charmed life. . . the rest of us can only hope for a life as perfect yours . . .
A little technology would have solved this problem. Given Ken's limitations, carrying a GPS, SPOT, or Cell Phone makes sense.
The trail was here before we arrived, and it will still be here when we are gone...enjoy it now, and preserve it for others that come after us
As with all SAR operations there will be a thorough investigation and study of what happened. I'd like to read that report when it becomes available.
My wife's ex almost did, He burned a few thousand acres by Luray a few months ago. He wasn't lost. He's just a dumba$$.
(I'm not prejudiced against him or anything like that.)
I'm glad Ken is OK. I had a feeling he would be.
I'm not really a hiker, I just play one on White Blaze.
Honestly, I couldn't care less about this guy's story.
What is there to it?
Jerk doesn't know limitations,
jerk is an ******* to friends who are trying to prevent exactly what happens to jerk,
jerk sets wildfire out of desperation.
Wow, awesome. Can't wait to hear it
Jerk is incapable of caring about people he's never met. . . . sad. . . Zoidtard. . .
Yupperdoodle or something
I'm glad he's ok, I just don't see what the big deal is. He sounds like your standard, "guy who ought to know better" and some are acting like he's above criticism for whatever reason.
That didn't stop you from chiming in though, did it?
What did we learn from this guy's post BR360? I'd say nothing about Ken, and quite a bit about Zoidfu.
'All my lies are always wishes" ~Jeff Tweedy~
I guess this is the part of the program where certain whiteblazers circle the wagons and have a good group cry
Shhhh.... shhhhh... no more tears. I'm seeing myself out of the thread.
Overall I think we agree that an effective AAR is important in understanding how best to deal with future mistakes and develop a successful response plan. As like minded individuals with a common interest we can gain useful insights from reviewing what occured and applying those lessons learned to help avoid future repetitions.
“He is richest who is content with the least, for content is the wealth of nature.” –Socrates
All hikers should be required to carry map, compass, GPS, SPOT, whistle, air horn, smoke cannister, two way radio, cell phone, signal mirror and wear bright glow in the dark orange clothing.
Just sayin...
I knew I couldn't afford to be a real hiker.
I'm not really a hiker, I just play one on White Blaze.
You seem to always have an a**hole lookout on most of the things you express your opinion on. Lesson to learn is that you sure like to play the "Jerk shoulda coulda woulda" game.I guess this is the part of the program where certain whiteblazers circle the wagons and have a good group cry
Shhhh.... shhhhh... no more tears. I'm seeing myself out of the thread.
My point is that, Ken is found. Instead of bashing his name and telling him "oh I woulda done this cuz Im allllllll knowing and I would never get lost" start a thread about the lessons to be learned and do it in a professional manner instead of being so critical. Never know, we may be reading a story about you getting lost and doing whatever you can to be found.
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