Greedy ****ers

[Dr O]

The whole "kids today" meme is so cliche, has been since about 400 BC and probably before that.

The youth of today love luxury; they have bad manners and contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Youth are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up food at the table, and tyrannize their teachers. (Attributed to Socrates in Plato’s “The Republic.”)

I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words… When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint (Hesiod, 8th century BC).

Maybe things are the same as they ever were.

[Tin Man]

lol! Yea, the IRS is known for it's concern about it's policies and how they affect society and the economy!

Just ask Joe Louis.

not saying its systematic and joe louis is bad example

[Marta]

Point of logic: To say that "most of the people who cause problems at The Place at 20-ish males," is not the same as saying "if a 20-ish male steps into The Place he will cause problems."

I don't know about the rest of you, but I did a few things in my youth that I cringe to think of now. Growing up takes a while.

The first principle of being a grown up is to take responsibility for yourself. Don't blame other people for your actions, and that includes not blaming your parents, your friends, your S.O., or "the System."

That said, donations are mostly a scheme for avoiding taxes and regulations. Period. Whatever the motive, that's why it's done. So it provides me a certain amount of amusement that someone who is evading regulations and taxes gets sore at someone who evades paying for services rendered.

[Tin Man]

Point of logic: To say that "most of the people who cause problems at The Place at 20-ish males," is not the same as saying "if a 20-ish male steps into The Place he will cause problems."

I don't know about the rest of you, but I did a few things in my youth that I cringe to think of now. Growing up takes a while.

The first principle of being a grown up is to take responsibility for yourself. Don't blame other people for your actions, and that includes not blaming your parents, your friends, your S.O., or "the System."

That said, donations are mostly a scheme for avoiding taxes and regulations. Period. Whatever the motive, that's why it's done. So it provides me a certain amount of amusement that someone who is evading regulations and taxes gets sore at someone who evades paying for services rendered.

yeah, but the flip side if they charged the real cost, including the cost to meet regulatory requirements and pay taxes, very few would stay

[DAJA]

Sounds to me like you are just talking about money, so you still don't get it.

You could be a better person, if you had a hostel at YOUR home.

I never said anything about money... Money is not my motivation or focus... In fact my entire life has been an effort to reduce my need for money to the point that I can now live a very healthy and happy life on less than a $1000.00/month... This includes, a beautiful new enviro friendly home (morgage free), that produces a good part of it's own energy, a property that provides me with a good portion of my own food, and a woodlot for warmth... Recently i've aquired a neighboring lot that will soon grow sunflower's to be harvested so I can produce my own biodiesel to power my VW and Kabota... All this sits surrounded in the appalachian range and the Bay of Fundy... It's a real outdoor paradise...

The reality is that my folks raised me to work hard and find solutions.... They had the forsight to see the destruction their peers where inflicting on our planet. So they worked hard to expand their skills and abilities so that they could pass that on to my brother and I... They didn't want us to get sucked into the trappings of consumer society and wanted us to grow up knowing the difference between real happyness and the mundane routine of their peers...

My goal now is to continue on the path that they laid for me, and to expand upon it... Come July 24 no more 9-5, no more cubical... I'll dedicate my time to homesteading and and focusing my attention on things that will have a possitive influence on my community and the world as a whole...

Unlike you folks in the generations before me, I'm not simply going to blindly participate and make excuses for a failing system... I'm going to find solutions and find my own way... I surely won't save the world, but I can significantly reduce my footprint...

Money is not a motivator it is a prison....

[generoll]

yeah, but the flip side if they charged the real cost, including the cost to meet regulatory requirements and pay taxes, very few would stay

Which some might call a good thing. Dunno. I'm kind of ambivalent about the whole thing. Shelters suck, Hostels suck. Except when the weather's crappy and I want to stay in one. Then they are a blessing.

Trail Magic is evil and causes an entitlement mentality. Except when I'm really thirsty or just need a break from what I am carrying in my pack. Then they are a useful and blessed part of the AT experience.

[Tin Man]

Which some might call a good thing. Dunno. I'm kind of ambivalent about the whole thing. Shelters suck, Hostels suck. Except when the weather's crappy and I want to stay in one. Then they are a blessing.

Trail Magic is evil and causes an entitlement mentality. Except when I'm really thirsty or just need a break from what I am carrying in my pack. Then they are a useful and blessed part of the AT experience.

you seem to like it both ways

foul weather only makes the shelters and hostels fouler than they already are ... just sayin'

[jersey joe]

One might suggest that those young folks earn a little more money before jumping on the trail and expecting others to subsidize their hikes. And as far as free places to stay, there's almost always a free one right outside of town, in their tents.

As for Hostels that advertise themselves as "free," there are two south of Harpers Ferry that I know of where the word is used in the Thru-hikers Handbook (2009). One is Woods Hole just south of Pearisburg. They are listed as "free, donations accepted." The other is the Blackburn A.T. Center south of Harpers Ferry. Blackburn is listed as "open to hikers free of charge, donations are appreciated."

Jester, I have no issue with encouraging younger people to save more money before jumping on the trail and to give donations whenever possible. My issue is with people getting upset that hikers don't leave donations if a hostel advertises as "FREE". If you expect a donation, then just say "minimum fee required". Don't set one expectation and expect another.

[Lone Wolf]

Jester, I have no issue with encouraging younger people to save more money before jumping on the trail and to give donations whenever possible. My issue is with people getting upset that hikers don't leave donations if a hostel advertises as "FREE". If you expect a donation, then just say "minimum fee required". Don't set one expectation and expect another.

there are no hostels along the AT that advertise as FREE

[jersey joe]

What about Jester's comment about Blackburn and Woods Hole above saying FREE in the Thru-Hikers Handbook??? I suppose he could be mistaken...

[ShakeyLeggs]

there are no FREE hostels on the AT

there are no hostels along the AT that advertise as FREE

http://tinyurl.com/n3nqyu

Blackburn Trail Center—East 0.2 mile via either of two blue-blazed trails. This PATC
facility, (540) 338-9028, is staffed during the summer months by a PATC caretaker.
From the porch, on clear days, you may be able to glimpse the Washington
Monument and National Cathedral in the distance to the east. The center has a
free bunkhouse that sleeps 8 with a wood-burning stove, a picnic pavilion with
table and benches built in 2002 with ALDHA donations in memory of Edward B.
Garvey. Six tentsites and a tent platform are nearby, and a camping area with privy
is 0.1 mile north of the main building on the blue-blazed trail. Water available
year-round from an outside spigot, pay phone located on the porch, and solarheated
shower on front lawn. Donations appreciated. During the summer months,
PATC work and hiking groups are often here.

Straight out of the 2009 Companion.

[Lyle]

http://tinyurl.com/n3nqyu

Blackburn Trail Center—East 0.2 mile via either of two blue-blazed trails. This PATC
facility, (540) 338-9028, is staffed during the summer months by a PATC caretaker.
From the porch, on clear days, you may be able to glimpse the Washington
Monument and National Cathedral in the distance to the east. The center has a
free bunkhouse that sleeps 8 with a wood-burning stove, a picnic pavilion with
table and benches built in 2002 with ALDHA donations in memory of Edward B.
Garvey. Six tentsites and a tent platform are nearby, and a camping area with privy
is 0.1 mile north of the main building on the blue-blazed trail. Water available
year-round from an outside spigot, pay phone located on the porch, and solarheated
shower on front lawn. Donations appreciated. During the summer months,
PATC work and hiking groups are often here.

Straight out of the 2009 Companion.

Same premise as a restaurant that automatically adds a 15% gratuity to a group's bill so that they can get out of paying a legitimate wage to their employees. Can't say it encourages good service if it's automatically added. A required donation, isn't a donation, but a fee.

That said, I believe we should pay if we avail ourselves of services offered.

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, restaurants that charge a fee for large parties pay their wait staff as restaurants that don't.

The "gratuity fee" for large parties is generally charged because large parties take up an inordinate ammount of a server's time; they require more tableside visits and services; this detracts that the time that the server can spend taking care of other patrons, etc. The gratuity fee for larger parties also helps insure that a server isn't stiffed, and this frequently happens with groups, i.e. many folks don't tip much or at all when they eat as a group. Can't tell you how many times I've eaten at a restaurant with a group of hikers who've left little or nothing for the server.

So the addition of a gratuity fee isn't a way for restaurants to avoid paying their staff. It's merely a way to help insure that servers don't get shafted by patrons who don't like to tip.

[Chaco Taco]

Actually, restaurants that charge a fee for large parties pay their wait staff as restaurants that don't.

The "gratuity fee" for large parties is generally charged because large parties take up an inordinate ammount of a server's time; they require more tableside visits and services; this detracts that the time that the server can spend taking care of other patrons, etc. The gratuity fee for larger parties also helps insure that a server isn't stiffed, and this frequently happens with groups, i.e. many folks don't tip much or at all when they eat as a group. Can't tell you how many times I've eaten at a restaurant with a group of hikers who've left little or nothing for the server.

So the addition of a gratuity fee isn't a way for restaurants to avoid paying their staff. It's merely a way to help insure that servers don't get shafted by patrons who don't like to tip.

And most restaurants do charge 18%- 20% because of that

[Lyle]

Actually, restaurants that charge a fee for large parties pay their wait staff as restaurants that don't.

The "gratuity fee" for large parties is generally charged because large parties take up an inordinate ammount of a server's time; they require more tableside visits and services; this detracts that the time that the server can spend taking care of other patrons, etc. The gratuity fee for larger parties also helps insure that a server isn't stiffed, and this frequently happens with groups, i.e. many folks don't tip much or at all when they eat as a group. Can't tell you how many times I've eaten at a restaurant with a group of hikers who've left little or nothing for the server.

So the addition of a gratuity fee isn't a way for restaurants to avoid paying their staff. It's merely a way to help insure that servers don't get shafted by patrons who don't like to tip.

No matter what their justification, a gratuity that is not optional, is not a gratuity. Pure and simple. Also, gratuities ARE a way of allowing the business to avoid paying an honest wage, that is why they have reduced minimum wages. Keeps the restaurant from having to pay the salery, the payroll taxes, and reduces their unemplyment contributions. It is a scam that has become ingrained.

[Chaco Taco]

WHat really stinks is the people that come in late, drink off of everyones booze, bums smokes, then jets out in the am without cleaning up after themselves and not leaving a dime.

[Jack Tarlin]

Semantically speaking, Lyle is right. Restaurants would probably do better to call this a "service fee" rather than a "gratuity fee". But whatever it's called, I think they're justified in charging it.

[JAK]

Any hostel that operates on a "donation" basis is doing so to avoid registering as a hotel. Most of the hostel owners out there are looking to make a couple of bucks, but none of them are getting rich. In fact, the profit margin is so low, that if these places were to register as a business and charge taxes, etc... The price would be much higher and then less people could afford to stay there.

The "donation" word is like code. They don't require you to pay, but make no mistake - you are being a dirtbag if you don't pay. If you don't like the fact that these places are exploiting a loophole in the law, fine - don't stay there. But don't go into somebody's home, use their hot water, electricity, heat, etc.. and think that its perfectly OK to not leave a dime because they used the word "donation".

And Lone Wolf is right - there isn't a "free" hostel on the trail.

Seems like a double standard of ethics here.

Why is it ok for scumbag hostel owners to exploit a loophole and not scumbag hikers?

Sounds like a match made in heaven.

[Jack Tarlin]

Geez, JAK, so you consider someone like Bob Peoples, who doesn't have a set fee, but who happily accepts donations from his guests, to be a scumbag?

Do yourself a favor......keep comments like that to the Internet, as I assure you you won't much care for the outcome if you were to ever talk like that in public.

Honestly, some people need to think a bit before they post.

[Tin Man]

Seems like a double standard of ethics here.

Why is it ok for scumbag hostel owners to exploit a loophole and not scumbag hikers?

Sounds like a match made in heaven.

get a clue already...