National Forest campsite fees

[RichardD]

I discovered today that the forest service is planning on doing away with the 50% discount for camp fees for those of us over 62 who qualify for the lifetime senior parks pass.
First the Forest service started subcontracting out the management of National Forest camp grounds and the price for these sites escalated.
For example, a few years ago I used a National Forest site in the Black hills during a Centennial trail hike and the price was a ridiculous $31 for a site in a campground with pit toilets. ( Usually the national Forests charge $12) Now the subcontractors say they cant make enough money with the senior discounts and want them abolished. It will likely take effect in 2011.
What upsets me the most is that for the last 30 years I have purchased a National Parks pass and Forest service sticker every year and for most of these 30 years I car camped and used the camps extensively. It bothered me that with my very small car and small tent I was paying twice the camp fees that the older folks were paying with their often huge RV's. I reasured myself that one day I would enjoy the same half price privilege.
Well, last Summer I turned 62 and immediately purchased my lifetime pass with the prospect of being able to enjoy the low cost National Forest camping in my upcoming retirement. Imagine how I feel when I hear it is to be taken away within the year.
Excuse the complaining, I had to vent.
Certainly it will not significantly affect hiking/backpacking but I also take extended car camp trips with my grandchildren.

[Rockhound]

Yep. Thats gotta stick in your craw. On the other hand it is not a lot of money relatively speaking and it is going toward protecting/preserving that which you love.

[RichardD]

Actually it's not, its going to the subcontractors.

[Lone Wolf]

i have/feel no sympathy/empathy. plenty of places in America to lay out for free

[RichardD]

Yes LW when I backpack/hike on my own there are countless free places to camp. Not so when you are treating three or four grandchildren to vacations in national Forests. Campgrounds and a car/tent are the way to introduce them to the outdoor life. Also my wife would no be able to backpack so car/campground is the way to go for her also.
Yes I have taken my oldest grandson backpacking and will take the others one at a time when the time is right.

[Captain Blue]

It is all about demographics. The population has more and more seniors and many of them are visiting the parks and forest lands. There are not enough people paying the full fare to subsidize the senior discounts. (Heard this before? Social Security)

[The Old Fhart]

At this point you are all debating an unsupported rumor. How about offering at least one link to show that this change in a lifetime National Forest discount pass (I have an America The Beautiful pass) is even being considered before you throw your passes in the trash.

[RichardD]

Article in AARP Bulletin March 2010. Their Information is usually reliable.
Entry to National Parks is still free. The proposal is for the senior discount to change from 50% to 10% at all of the privately managed concessioned National Forest campgrounds, they say 82% of the 4731 campgrounds.
The proposal does not yet include National Parks or other federally owned lands.
Perhaps you can find it at http:// bulletin.aarp.org I have the mailed newspaper version of the bulletin Vol 51 No2 page 4
A bit more than a rumour I am afraid.

[K2]

http://bulletin.aarp.org/yourworld/g...campers.2.html

At this point, it is just a proposal--I think there will be too much backlash to actually go through.

[GoldenBear]

As a 55-year-old who refuses senior discounts (yes, I've been offered them every since I was 45, and usually get them WITHOUT being asked -- which I immediately refuse), I'd like to know something: why should someone who is over a certain age get a discount, but not someone who is using food stamps? I presently have (literally) ten thousand times more wealth than when I 18, so why should I pay LESS for an item than someone who is 18?

This is never been explained to me by anyone, and maybe you can answer it.

[JustaTouron]

As a 55-year-old who refuses senior discounts (yes, I've been offered them every since I was 45, and usually get them WITHOUT being asked -- which I immediately refuse), I'd like to know something: why should someone who is over a certain age get a discount, but not someone who is using food stamps? I presently have (literally) ten thousand times more wealth than when I 18, so why should I pay LESS for an item than someone who is 18?

This is never been explained to me by anyone, and maybe you can answer it.

Many businesses do is not offer a blanket senior discount but offer a discount to seniors during non-peak hours. E.g. the early bird dinner, a discount at the department store on Tuesday or Wednesday, lower rates for room during the off-season or during the week day. The idea behind this is retired persons often have less money but a more flexible schedule allowing them to avoid the busy times and use the business during the slow periods which benefits the business, the seniors and those people who need to use the business during peak times because they are employed.

It sounds like what the Forest service is in the early stages of considering is eliminating the discount during peak times. But continuing it during non-peak times. Seems like a good plan. No need to give a retiree a discount during Memorial day weekend when plenty of other people are willing to pay full price, the retiree can enjoy the park a few days later when the crowds have gone back to work at a discount.

[mister krabs]

As a 55-year-old who refuses senior discounts (yes, I've been offered them every since I was 45, and usually get them WITHOUT being asked -- which I immediately refuse), I'd like to know something: why should someone who is over a certain age get a discount, but not someone who is using food stamps? I presently have (literally) ten thousand times more wealth than when I 18, so why should I pay LESS for an item than someone who is 18?

This is never been explained to me by anyone, and maybe you can answer it.

OK, I'll take a shot at it. Not at why *you* should get a discount, but why seniors as a class should in the public sense and do in the business sense.

Younger generations, especially the newest ones like 18 year olds, owe a debt to those who have come before that have contributed to and created the society of the present that we benefit from. Part of that social legacy is the public trust lands that are in the National Parks. That is why you *should* get a discount at national parks.

That doesn't account for why you get a discount at captain D's on wednesdays, but maybe marketing does. You and I as ambitious, responsible and capable savers are not the "norm." We have more assets than the 20% of americans whose only retirement plan is social security and the 60% of americans whose main retirement plan is social security. Poor old people are a big market too and likely to frequent businesses that offer them a discount. One could be blinded by the reflection off all the silver hair in Captain D's on senior night, and I'd bet that what they lose in discount they make up for in volume.

[RichardD]

Senior discounts at restaurants and the like are merely marketing strategies. Also as seniors I don't think we really have a right to discounts but what got me upset is that the discounts are vanishing ahead of me as I reach the age to take advantage of them.
For many years I paid full price to camp in the National forest (and National park) camps. I was camped alongside many clearly wealthy seniors with their very expensive RV's and they were paying half the camp fees that I was paying. I consoled myself with the thought that in retirement I could take advantage of the much reduced camp fees. Now as I approach retirement the reduced fees may vanish. Obviously that does not sit well with me.
Realistically I can more easily afford the full price now than I could in those days gone by.
I still don't like it.

[scottdennis]

I say let the law of supply and demand dictate pricing. If people don't want to pay the money they won't go. They'll have to drop prices if no one comes.

Personally, I refuse to pay as much for a campsite than what I could get a cheap hotel room for.

[Mrs Baggins]

As a 55-year-old who refuses senior discounts (yes, I've been offered them every since I was 45, and usually get them WITHOUT being asked -- which I immediately refuse), I'd like to know something: why should someone who is over a certain age get a discount, but not someone who is using food stamps? I presently have (literally) ten thousand times more wealth than when I 18, so why should I pay LESS for an item than someone who is 18?

This is never been explained to me by anyone, and maybe you can answer it.

I am SO with you!!!! I have sworn to never take those discounts. Why on earth should I get any percentage off of something based on my age when there is a young single mom in line who really needs the price breaks and gets none???? Or the family with kids who could get out more if they could get the price reductions?? I am sick to death of watching "seniors" pull up to places like McDonald's in new or late model luxury cars and then slapping down their quarters and demanding "senior" coffees. Just because someone woke up one more morning that does NOT suddenly make them destitute and unable to pay for things. Our military families deserve discounts. Families with little kids deserve discounts. All of those people are already paying the way of "seniors" through their social security taxes (nope, the money the seniors put in is long gone - their sucking their kids and grandkids dry now) and all of those "senior" prices in stores, restaurants, and more. It would also sicken me to see a couple of blue-haired people pull up in a $100,000 motor home at a campground and then demand their free or reduced camping rates while the young couple or family in a tent has to pay full rack.

[JustaTouron]

I say let the law of supply and demand dictate pricing. If people don't want to pay the money they won't go. They'll have to drop prices if no one comes.

That is a concept that the feds are slowing begining to understand. Almost every private campground will change you more on a three day weekend than they will mid-week during to off-season. Most state parks are that way, but for some reason many federal locations charge the exact same regardless of the aniticipated demand.

[sherrill]

I'll take a senior discount if it's offered. (yes, I qualify). I'll pretty much take any discount offered if it helps me save money. When I retire I don't want to work anywhere, anymore. More hiking.

[RichardD]

Not all seniors are rich, not all young families are poor. Our economy works in a way that if you have lots of money you pay less, if you have little or no money you pay more (credit card interest rates and bank fees an example).
Don't assume that the old couple in the nice RV is very wealthy, the RV might be their home and a $100,000 home is not a particularly expensive home. Half price camping might mean $465 per month to park their RV rather than $930. (Black Hills NF Campground used as example)
Many old folk paid into SS all their working life and their defined benefit is what they earned. I know many who barely subsist off SS and I know a millionaire who takes his SS check every month. When one pays into a defined benefit plan for many years one should be entitled to their defined benefit when they reach the reirement age. It should not be regarded as soaking their children or grandchildren. (Mine by the way is a teacher retirement which so far we have been able to prevent the politicians from accessing and spending and is fiducially sound so it's soaking noone, but that is just my luck of the draw).
If discounts are offered it makes economic sense to use them. Discounts are offered if the vendor believes it will benefit him in either the short or long term. It has nothing to do with rights of any particular group.

[Cookerhiker]

Regardless of the senior discount issue, my problem with this situation is privatizing our National Forest campgrounds. As Richard said in his earlier posts, much of the fee is going to the contractors. I don't mind paying fees - and I don't need my senior discount - if the funds are going 100% to the Forest Service for management of said forest. I also have no problem with non-government particpation by campground hosts who trade a season-long campsite for some responsibilities, and with the service they provide, why are contractors involved?

[mikec]

If I were on a fixed income and someone offered me a discount at a restaurant, campground, whatever, heck yes, I'd take it! Sounds rather boastful or prideful to me to refuse a discount.