late arriver's

[Former Admin]

I dont' give a ratz ass if people smoke weed have sex behind the shelter or what they do ......... but I do not like hikers coming in an hour after dark ..... how do others feel about this?

Mileage is not an excuse to me ... i average about six a day myself or did, and when people say we'll i have to be done by so and so ,so i can go home and meet the internet lady of my dreams and im sorry to bother you but do you mind if I cook my meal, oh I see a space betwween you two can I fit in there, oh no I won't bother you again because there is a group twnty miles ahead i'll bother tommorow, do you mind, oh don't worry im outta here at 4 am, i'll be sure to wake you

[ez-does-it]

That is another reason why I don't stay in shelters.

[Footslogger]

Amen to "noisy" late night arrivals. I might even do some "after dinner" hiking myself in 2003 but can't imagine expecting to find a spot in a shelter in that case. About the only exception might be if a hiker arrives late in horrendous weather, in which case some or most of the hikers who are already bedded down for the night would be pretty understanding ...just my opinion

[chris]

While I'm not a superfan of later arrivers, it is important to remember that weekenders and dayhikers do not usually keep hiker hours. Some people do like to night hike or stay up past 9 in the summer time. During the winter time, it is dark by 6 or so. Many people like to be out and mobile even past 7 during the winter. That being said, because a shelter is a communal place, I think it is important for late arrivers to be courteous and to be quiet when then enter, at least to the best of their ability. It is just as important for early arrivers to be courteous. For example, unless you are the only one at the shelter, don't put your stuff everywhere. Keep it in a nice compact, small area. At the very least, if late arrivers show up, they won't have to fuss around and make noise moving around other people's gear.

[gravityman]

Don't expect an understanding crowd if you arrive late to a shelter in bad weather. My wife and I got to the shelter after Albert Mt in a downpour that had been going on all day. We really pushed it to the shelter because we had been planning on tenting somewhere between shelters, but we were soaked to the bone and really wanted that roof over our heads. The scrabble up Albert is legendary, and everyone else at the shelter had also just done it. You would think you were arriving to an understanding group.
The reality was very different. When we got to the shelter, it was very crowded. The people there were all sitting down or in their bags, and every square inch was taken up with the usual hiker explosion. No one bothered to move or move anything. The only comment we got was a resounding "We're full!" Well, ignoring that, we found plenty of room for our bags at the end of the platform (its a particularly deep one) and basically had to shove people's gear around to find a place to strip down and get warm clothes on fast. When someone else showed up, 'the crowd' piped up real loud and ask "So, where are you sleeping?" in the snottiest voice ever. John, bless him and his lawyering sense, said "Right here. Where are you sleeping?" He moved everyones stuff of the picnic table and slept right there.
I've always been of the mind that a shelter is NEVER full on a rainy night. I was very disappointed with this crowded, and it was the worst case we encountered (it was one of the worst hiking days we had too), however wet hikers are rarely met with an entusiastic greeting when then enter a shelter as it fills up. However, my wife and I made it a point from then on to be the first person to speak to late wet arrivals with a "Wow, it's awful out there. Don't worry, we'll make room for you! Do you need anythimg moved?" That usually sets the tone for the rest of the people, and its worked well so far.

Gravity Man

[novhiker]

Had 4 SOBO's come in after dark last weekend. Didn't bother me cause I use earplugs (otherwise mice keep me awake Just please don't step on me!

[Jack Tarlin]

This one's kind of a no-brainer:

1. If you know you're gonna arrive at a shelter after dark, or after it's likely that people will be asleep, then you shouldn't plan on spending the night in the shelter. You might want to make camp BEFORE you get there, while you still have good light to find a decent campsite.

2. If you must keep going to the shelter site (you need water, there's nowhere good to camp, whatever) then you should tent or tarp when you arrive so as not to disturb sleeping folks.

3. If you MUST stay in the shelter (only acceptaable if you're sick, exhausted, hurt, or the weather is horrible) then set up as quickly as possible. You should avoid cooking, if possible, and keep your movements, flashlights, etc. to a minimum. Obviously, if you've arrived with someone, you keep talking to a minimum.

4. In the morning, it can't hurt to make some sort of explanation/apology to the folks you undoubtedly disturbed the night before.

5. Likewise, if you're a real early riser, if you know you get up several times during the night, if you thrash around, and especially, if you know you snore, then you shouldn't stay in a shelter at all, except when the weather is terrible. Bottom line: Shelters are designed primarily as communal SLEEPING facilities, and nobody has the right to disturb anyone else's sleep.

[MedicineMan]

I consider shelters as 'not even there' and when I do see one and especially if needed consider them bonus gifts from God, further they are 'shelters' not hostels, not motels, no ones in particular, and as alluded to above-never full in inclement weather or when injured. With that said I can see no reason for any hiker to be without shelter of his or her own-allways with no exceptions even and especially if day hiking. Personally I usualy abhor to sleep in them and often stop there for dinner then move on down the trail to set up camp and have wondered out loud a time or two if they shouldnt be removed completely from the trail-what a different experience that would be. Nevertheless they are there and mileage withstanding good manners and the helping hand are simply what hikers should be all about.

[chris]

I would disagree with dachonkin here. I think the shelters are an integral part of the AT. I find the people the most rewarding part of hiking on the AT and the shelters are where I can experience this in its fullest. I could just rest or cook a meal at a shelter and then move on, but I would hardly get to know anyone at the shelters in this way.

I would also disagree that even day hikers should always carry their own shelter with them, at least in the moderate (i.e, not the Whites, not Maine) sections of the AT during most of the times of the year. I would also disagree that thru hikers should always carry their own shelter. People who choose not to should be prepared to face the consequences of their decision, however. In the South, at least, the weather and the terrain are modertate enough during, say, May through September, that I think a hiker which is reasonably prepared (has something relatively waterproof, some good insulating layers, etc) faces no increase in danger by not carrying a personal shelter.

The prime benefit, I think, from carrying one's own shelter is flexibility. Do you want to camp on a really pretty bald and catch the sunrise? Go ahead and don't worry about it raining. Do you want to hike more than the 10 miles to the next shelter but less than 22 to the one beyond it? No problem. Fed up with slobs in the shelter? Pitch your tent where you want to. But, I don't think one can make a good argument for carrying a shelter on one's back for pure safety reasons. This statement is, of course, modified by the provisos above (moderate weather, moderate environment).

[Moose2001]

Chris - I'll have to go with Dachonkin on this one. I strongly disagree with the comment there is no good argument for carrying a shelter for safety reasons. One of the most misunderstood safety considerations hikers face is hypothermia. Most hikers do not understand they can face hypothermia at much higher temps than they realize. A wet hiker can get into danger in temps as high as the 50s. It's very easy to be in danger in the 40s. If you are stuck outside on a cold, wet, rainy night with no shelter, you can easily place yourself in danger. All long distance hikers should carry some form of shelter. You can not count on the shelter being available or even making it to the shelter. Doing otherwise is just not very smart.

I also agree wiht Dachonkin in saying even day hikers should carry some form of shelter. I almost never carry a tent when day hiking. However, I always carry rain gear. I go with the thought that if I get injured or something happens to me, I can survive a night in the woods. I might be uncomfortable but I'd make it through. It only takes one false step to turn your nice day hike into a cold night on the trail.

[mntman777]

Well this is going to be my first thru hike, but I would never try to stay in a shelter when arriving after dark when people are already a sleep. Unless its maybe storming. It just sounds a little rude. So anyway, I'm taking an awsome tent,(msr sentinel)and plan on using it a lot. Happy hiking.

[MedicineMan]

Unless you already know, guess which state has the highest number of cases of hypothermia----give up? its Florida....a few years ago I was in Aruba windsurfing for two weeks...at the place I was staying there was a mandatory lecture before you could go out listing the dangers in that particular area...dont be surprised when the first topic covered was hypothemia--and that was only 6 degrees north of the equator! even 92 degree water can rob you of life sustaining heat if you are in it long enough! I tout shelter on the back for all including day hikers because a tube tent can only weigh 8 ounces-mine which I have plauded on this board many times is 12 onces in sil-nyl and is 10 feet long with bug netting...and this shelter may not even be used by you or me but by the person we happen on who has sustained a mishap. I suppose I was overboard in contemplating the AT without shelters and the reason I think I had that thought was because of a recent paddle trip into Voyageurs where the NPS is removing all human made structures-cabins/houses/fishing huts/etc..with the goal of returning the park to its original stature. This I found to be the case in the Core Banks of the National Lakeshor this summer...so I muse what the AT would be like with no man-made structures on it. I feel there would be far less problems with bears and mice???? Anyway just thinking out loud here.....

[chris]

Hypothermia is the single, I think, greatest health/safety factor that hikers along the AT (and most places) face. As Moose and Dachonkin point out, it can occur in temps in the 50s. In fact, I would probably assert that more cases of hypothermia occur in the 40-50 temp range than anyothers. Of course this isn't scientific (I don't have stats), but my reasoning is simple: In these temp. ranges, people, especially day hikers, are less likely to have rain gear or warm clothes. They get overly ambitious and get too far from a trail head. They are wet and the wind starts to chill them when they break. They panic, stop hiking, have no way to generate body heat, and they get in trouble. If they had warm, dry clothes to change into and a way to keep dry, like raingear or a tent, they would be able, as Moose points out, to spend an uncomfortable, but survivable, night in the woods.

This, however, does not mean one has to carry a tent. The way to battle the onset of hypothermia, if you are unable to extract yourself and get indoors, is to shed wet or damp clothes, done warm ones, stay dry, and eat something/drink something warm. It is quite possible to do this without a tent, although a tent would make things more comfortable. I am using "tent" here to designate any portable shelter.

To go into the outdoors when it is possible (or atleast probable) that you will face conditions conducive to hypothermia and not carry the gear needed to survive it is foolish. If the point of all this is simply to get through a tough situation, then a tent isn't necessary for a large part of the year. Carrying warm clothing and waterproof gear is sufficient, particularly if backed up with some form of a stove. Of course, this is all predicated on what sort of weather you might face and what sort of terrain you will be travelling on. Obviously, riding out a cold, wet night in an insulated jacket, thermal underwear, and a water proof shell is less comfortable than carrying a personal shelter. But, I don't think it is really any less safe.

Incidently, if I was going to start in March, I'd carry some form of shelter on by back until I got to Hot Springs, or maybe Erwin. Good protection from the bad weather and solves the problem (for me) of shelter overcrowding during this time.

[stranger]

If you really think about it...there is no reason for a late arrival if you're a half competent hiker. I know exactly how many hours it will take me to do X amount of miles, and will plan my day accordingly so I don't arrive at shelters late. Why people think it's OK to show up at 11pm and request space is beyond me. Even on my longest days I will not show up at a shelter after 6-7pm, it's inconsiderate of other hikers. So I don't really understand why this happens among long distance hikers...I can understand weekenders coming up late, they may have to work til 7 and not get up there til 10, but with long distance hikers it's a different story. And for long days...if you can't do 25 by 8pm plan on tent/tarping out or do shorter days. Of course if the weather is terrible this is a different story...I would personally put another hiker's safety over anything else on the trail. Safety among fellow hikers is priority...but inconsideration just plain sucks. Adios!

[Peaks]

I'll agree in principal with Stranger. However, it just seems to be the habit of some hikers that they sleep all morning, and then hike until late at night. Can't explain it, except to say that everyone is different.

Another thing, when it's hot and humid, it's often much more pleasant to hike in the evening rather than mid day.

[RagingHampster]

Do whatever you want, no one owns the shelter, but it iscourteous to not enter a shelter after dark.

I've only slept in 2 shelters, and one lean-to. Every other night I've spent in the woods has been within a tent. My experiences were as follows...

1.)Skyline Shelter in Breadloaf Wilderness, VT. Long Trail.
-Rowdy BoyScout Troop.
-Through Hiker entering around 9-ish.
-Scout Leader Snored.
-Some Woman sleeping next to me got up 5 times to answer natures call.
-Scout troop awoke at 4am to begin making pancakes, on the shelter's porch.
-Someone's water bottle tipped over on the foot of my down-bag, which is when I got up and left.
-As a kicker, the care-taker came after me demanding a $6 use fee. I looked him in the eyes, laughed, and trudged off, my wet sleeping bag hanging around my neck. 6 Miles later, when I arrived at my pick-up, I was also missing my GPS unit, which someone must have thieved during the night.

2.)Montclair Glen Lodge, Long Trail VT., near Camels Hump.
-Absolutely packed. Whispers and murmurs for the first two hours of night, then one guy next to me farted 7 or 8 times within 2 or 3 minutes, and someone was sleep talking. I got up muttering every curse I knew, dragged my crap outside, and slept without a tent, just my bag & pad. I awoke with a face which had been harvested by black flies.

3.)Lean-to below Mt. Grace, MA.
-About 15 kids my age (18-22), bonfires, noise, and then an ATV pulled in via a jeep trail with multiple 30-packs. This was about 7pm.
-I got up and speed-hiked the 4 miles to my pick-up in 2.5 hours, taking the wrong trail fork and having to back-track 1/2 a mile and take the other path.

My tent is my best friend, I pretend the shelters don't even exist. I hate to say it, but 75% of the people I meet are weirdos anyways. I'm not of the 60's peace-loving re-gen type that make up the majority of the central/northern vermont hikers. I had a woman near Stratton Mt. VT., throw a branch at me when a friend and I fired up his coleman grill, and I pulled out a bloody 4 lb. hunk of Beef Tenderloin making "Moo" sounds. She actually threw a branch at me, and I had never even seen or spoke to this woman before in my life. Her husband (I assume) shook his head and muttered something under his breath in my direction. I just stood up and went "MMMMMMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!". They kept going.

Did I mention I hate shelters?

By the way, I stopped by the Breadloaf wilderness ranger station the following day and gave them $6 so a Green Mountain Club Caretaker wouldn't jump me my next time out. As for my GPS, they said I probably dropped it. I started filling out a form, grumbled, crumpled it up, and left.

Did I mention I hate shelters?

[chris]

Having only spent an appreciable time in shelters in the South, I'd be interested to know how or if the shelter experience changes as you move north. It sounds like shelters in the north fill up with less than desireable people. In the south, during 40 some odd nights in shelters, I've never had a problem. In fact, all have been positive experiences.

[Lone Wolf]

Late arrivers? Yeah they're rude and inconsiderate but if you choose to stay in a box with a hard floor packed together instead of camping in the thousands of beautiful acres around you, deal with. No whining. No sniveling as SGT. Rock says.

[SGT Rock]

Shelters make a nice place to stop and eat since most have benches and good water. I like to fill up and eat in a clar open place protected from the rain, but 9 out of 10 times will move on after eating and stealth camp.

If you stay to sleep there, you take your chances.

[Trailjockey]

Well, like the Sarge says they`re a good place to stop and eat, rest up for awhile and get dry after a rainny day. But, the thrill of having "The Rodent Night Patrol" use your face as high ground to scout out their next quarry kind of looses it for me. They`re big draw is the tiny morsels of food we drop. From my one experience of spending the night at a shelter(never more),I have concluded that staking out a piece of realestate far away from any structures meant for humans is a by-far the best way to get a good nights rest. I know no matter how hard you try, it`s damn near impossible to keep all bits of food from reaching the ground. And no matter how minute, it is the mission of all rodents to "seekout and survive". Also, being a snorer myself is another good reason to relocate. Besides, I hear it makes good bear repellant and helps to repel people too!(LoL) As for other the snorers, late arrivals and early risers, I haven`t had the misfortune of their company. Although, one hiking companion is an early riser(probably from my snoring), the payoff is hot coffee and the bear bag been retrieved.................... Just some ramblings! Happy Trails!