Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves)

[moytoy]

Methanol will absorb through your skin. Look up the MSDS on the stuff. It will not break down safely in the body. In fact, the standard treatment is to flood the victim's system with ethanol so that the liver can't break down the methanol into toxic products.

Is Jack Daniels a good flooding agent?

[hikin_jim]

That ought to do it. Never can tell with methanol. You probably should drink JD the whole time you're on the trail just to be safe. Purely for medicinal reasons of course.

HJ

[moytoy]

I'm cooking with methanol 5 days a week every week. I see a rehab in my future! Maybe I should switch back to 90 per cent ethanol to cook with so then I can lay off the JD!

[dla]

That ought to do it. Never can tell with methanol. You probably should drink JD the whole time you're on the trail just to be safe. Purely for medicinal reasons of course.

HJ

Look, I'm glad to see you mining this forum to flesh out your blog, but with a little knowledge comes some responsibility. Don't underestimate the danger of Methanol and put something to that effect in your blog. Otherwise the surviving families of noobs, who hired Slime & Rodent LLC to represent them, may search your pockets.

[hikin_jim]

Hi, dla,

Point very well taken. Methanol should be handled properly at all times. That particular comment (about Jack Daniels) was intended as a joke.

I do think that methanol can be used safely if used with reasonable care. I personally avoid getting it on my hands by using a squeeze bottle. My favorite arrangement is a squeeze bottle with a Packafeather cap. I get little or no splashing and have excellent control.

I only burn methanol outdoors in a well ventilated area. It burns pretty cleanly, but still, better to be careful than not.

I never stove food in the same container as methanol.

My alcohol squeeze bottle goes inside a Ziploc bag, sometimes two, which in turn usually goes in my cook pot which a) prevents squeezing and b) prevents damage to the Ziplocs. I've never had a spill escape the Ziploc bag, but I have had some leaks with fuel stored in a Trangia burner. I was glad I had taken the precaution of storing the burner in a Ziploc bag. My cook pot goes into yet another Ziploc bag. Keeps soot off the pack but would also prevent any alcohol from getting into other things.

I always inspect my pot before cooking. I've never had a problem possibly because I'm pretty cautious.

Always avoid getting methanol on your hands. If you do, wipe it off. Avoid methanol fumes both from unburned methanol and from methanol undergoing combustion. And NEVER, EVER, UNDER *ANY* CIRCUMSTANCES drink methanol. Ingesting it is the number one most dangerous thing you can do; all else pales by comparison. If you ingest methanol, you might very well die a very painful death. Even if you get to a hospital, your chances are NOT good from what I've read. I strongly suggest that drink bottles NOT be used for methanol storage. It doesn't take much if you drink the stuff.

HJ

[moytoy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMDTOPlpdKY

[moytoy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMDTOPlpdKY

To be clear this guy was drinking something other than methanol. When I was a teenager there was false information going around. The story was that wood alcohol could be ingested if filtered through a loaf of bread. We had a town drunk try it and he died.

[Camping Dave]

Methanol MSDS: http://www.midi-inc.com/pdf/MSDS_Methanol.pdf

Danger! Poison! May be fatal or cause blindness if swallowed. Vapor harmful. Flammable liquid and
vapor. Harmful if swallowed, inhaled, or absorbed through the skin. Causes eye, skin, and respiratory tract
irritation. May cause central nervous system depression. Cannot be made non-poisonous.
Target Organs: Eyes, nervous system, optic nerve.

[Wise Old Owl]

Yea Camping Dave - we went down that pike about two years ago when I got on a bender about people putting these alcohols in soda bottles....

Did anyone answer where I can get this stuff - or do I stop at a paint store and get a gallon?

[hikin_jim]

Which one you looking for, WOO?

Klean Strip Green Denatured is available at Home Depot
Sunnyside brand is good, but I don't know a National Chain that carries it. I buy mine at the Do It Center.
Klean Strip SLX Denatured is available at Home Depot
HEET can be bought at Walmart. It's pretty cheap in the four pack. Sometimes it goes on sale in the spring.

Pretty much any paint or hardware store will have some kind of denatured alcohol. You'd have to look at the MSDS to see what's in them. Buying by the gallon is cheap. By the quart is expensive. HEET comes in 12 oz bottles, but is still pretty cheap, and as mentioned earlier, you want the yellow HEET not the Iso-HEET that comes in a red bottle.

HJ

[Wise Old Owl]

Relax, WOO, it's not explosive. Now, what happens to your personality after you drink it, now that might be explosive.

It's pretty tough to get high concentration ethanol unless you want to pay the $$$'s for Everclear. Sunnyside denatured alcohol and Klean Strip Green denatured alcohol have good ethanol content and are more reasonably priced.

HJ

Everclear is illegal in PA and is 100 proof alcohol. We have to get to Wilmington De to buy that. Everything else is cool

[mkmangold]

Yes... Generally, "drinking grade" alcohol just contains ethanol, water, and flavoring/coloring agents (very minor amounts). 190 proof (95% ethanol) is about the highest concentration of "drinking grade" alcohol you can get. 150 proof (75% ethanol) is another popular composition.HJ

I once had this idea about removing the alcohol and water from various wines. Then, for camping, bring along Everclear (only where legal) and use it for fuel. Later at night, if you're so inclined add the wine-flavored powder back into the right proportions of water and Everclear and drink to your well-planned dayAlso, can E85 be used in alcohol stoves. Around here, it's about $3.20/gallon.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Guys be very careful handling Methanol. If Methanol finds it's way into your body, cuts on your hands, inhalation, contamination with food or drink, it will never leave you. Your body can not process out this chemical.

You are mistaken.

Are you sure about that? My understanding is that the problem with methanol is not so much that it doesn't break down but rather what it breaks down in to: formaldehyde and formic acid. It's the break down components that cause the neurological damage as I understand it.

But I guess the way it screws you up isn't too important. What's important to know is that methanol is toxic and due care is necessary. As long as you're reasonable careful and DON'T DRINK THE STUFF, you should be OK.

HJ

You are correct. ANd it tends to first attack the optic nerves, hence all the blind drunk methanol stories (which are true).

I work with thousands of gallons of this stuff at the Chemical Plant where I work. It will not break down.

Again, you are mistaken. It does break down and it is the metabolized (broken down) by-products that poison you (formaldehyde to formic acid). That is why the antidote is to flood the body with ethanol. This is called competitive inhibition - there is so much ethanol by percentage that much less of the methanol gets metabolized, most is excreted prior to metabolization via evaporation from the lungs and as liquid from the kidneys, and that methanol which does get metabolized is then also metabolized over a longer period.

Methanol will absorb through your skin. Look up the MSDS on the stuff. It will not break down safely in the body. In fact, the standard treatment is to flood the victim's system with ethanol so that the liver can't break down the methanol into toxic products.

The amount that would enter via incidental skin contact from filling a camp stove is not going to cause methanol poisoning - unless you bathed in it.

And FWIW, methanol occurs naturally in small amounts in almost all fruits and juices. You know, that healthy stuff most of us never eat enough of Hey, don't go drinking the stuff, it is toxic even in small (an ounce or two quantities). But any spilled in your pot will evaporate, and a drop or two orally or what gets on your skin isn't.

[hikin_jim]

You are mistaken.


You are correct. ANd it tends to first attack the optic nerves, hence all the blind drunk methanol stories (which are true).

Again, you are mistaken. It does break down and it is the metabolized (broken down) by-products that poison you (formaldehyde to formic acid). That is why the antidote is to flood the body with ethanol. This is called competitive inhibition - there is so much ethanol by percentage that much less of the methanol gets metabolized, most is excreted prior to metabolization via evaporation from the lungs and as liquid from the kidneys, and that methanol which does get metabolized is then also metabolized over a longer period.

The amount that would enter via incidental skin contact from filling a camp stove is not going to cause methanol poisoning - unless you bathed in it.

And FWIW, methanol occurs naturally in small amounts in almost all fruits and juices. You know, that healthy stuff most of us never eat enough of Hey, don't go drinking the stuff, it is toxic even in small (an ounce or two quantities). But any spilled in your pot will evaporate, and a drop or two orally or what gets on your skin isn't.

Interesting. What you're saying is more in line with my understanding of the toxicity of methanol.

I've been using methanol in various forms for stove fuel for several years. No ill effects as yet.

HOWEVER, better safe than sorry. Based on our discussion here, I put together a new post: Methanol -- Safe Handling. Have a look if you all have a chance and give me your feed back.

HJ

[4eyedbuzzard]

Interesting. What you're saying is more in line with my understanding of the toxicity of methanol.

I've been using methanol in various forms for stove fuel for several years. No ill effects as yet.

HOWEVER, better safe than sorry. Based on our discussion here, I put together a new post: Methanol -- Safe Handling. Have a look if you all have a chance and give me your feed back.

HJ

Looks reasonable. A good warning without craziness.

[hikin_jim]

Thanks. I was trying to come up with something balanced as well as practical.

HJ

[dla]

Unfortunately some people think they can use it to wash their hands, wipe their faces, mosquito repellant, bug bites, kill head lice, etc. That's why there's a warning - it is toxic.

[hikin_jim]

Unfortunately some people think they can use it to wash their hands, wipe their faces, mosquito repellant, bug bites, kill head lice, etc. That's why there's a warning - it is toxic.

Hmm. Maybe I'd better add an admonition to that effect on my blog. Ethanol might be OK for some of those applications, but not methanol.

HJ

[moytoy]

I think the biggest threat methanol poses is to children. Because we repackage it for our own specialized use it could be mistaken for something to drink. DO NOT leave it where kids can get into it. Adults handleing any kind of chemical should learn the dangers before using it.

[Camping Dave]

Yea Camping Dave - we went down that pike about two years ago when I got on a bender about people putting these alcohols in soda bottles....

Really, you remember stuff from 2 years ago? You should change your name to wise old elephant.