Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves)

[Odd Man Out]

The methanol thread keeps coming up over and over.

Yes it is metabolized and the body naturally can deal with small (trace) amounts that you might get from incidental contact/fumes. Drink it - you die. Allow someone else to get a hold of your methanol and accidentally drink it - even worse - so be sure to label well.

I doubt the fumes from a burning stove are worse from methanol than ethanol. Alcohol stoves burn very efficiently so not much unburned fuel should be released. I would think that carbon monoxide from partially burned fuel is the real problem there, and that can be just as much a problem with ethanol. So don't burn your stove indoors.

BTW, Nutra Sweet is a methyl ester of a dipeptide, so when that is hydrolyzed, you produce methanol. It's not a big deal since you only produce milligram (maybe microgram) amounts.

[hikin_jim]

Yeah, I don't think it's necessary to get paranoid about methanol. Reasonable care? Yes. Paranoid? No. I burn methanol outside and not in an enclosed space, but that's a precaution, not a life and death necessity. Methanol burns very cleanly. I went ahead and updated my blog post on methanol safe handling per some of the remarks here in this thread. HJ

[dla]

The methanol thread keeps coming up over and over.

Yes it is metabolized and the body naturally can deal with small (trace) amounts that you might get from incidental contact/fumes. Drink it - you die. Allow someone else to get a hold of your methanol and accidentally drink it - even worse - so be sure to label well.

I doubt the fumes from a burning stove are worse from methanol than ethanol. Alcohol stoves burn very efficiently so not much unburned fuel should be released. I would think that carbon monoxide from partially burned fuel is the real problem there, and that can be just as much a problem with ethanol. So don't burn your stove indoors.

BTW, Nutra Sweet is a methyl ester of a dipeptide, so when that is hydrolyzed, you produce methanol. It's not a big deal since you only produce milligram (maybe microgram) amounts.

Burning Methanol produces formaldehyde. And it is a crap shoot on burner efficiency. Methanol is a great fuel, but it is dangerous and requires much more respect than Ethanol. Your child will survive a swallow of Parks brand denatured. Your child will be a memory from a swallow of yellow bottle heat. Not sure why this is so hard to understand except to say that obviously folks haven't read the MSDS on the stuff.

[Rocketman]

If adults handling dangerous chemical don't know the dangers, their kids should be taught then. Let the old fools pay the consequences of not knowing, but by all means, save the children from ignorance.

[hikin_jim]

by all means, save the children from ignorance.

Yeah, maybe that's worth noting too.

Thanks,

HJ

[hikin_jim]

Blog accordingly updated.

Thanks for the input.

HJ

[kayak karl]

Interesting. I would have thought HEET would be easiest to find since gas stations will frequently carry it.

I guess though that a lot of gas stations are going to stop carrying it now that gasoline contains something like 10% ethanol. Kind of makes the HEET redundant.

I guess denatured is available from paint and hardware stores. Even fairly small towns should have a general store that might carry either HEET or some brand of denatured alcohol.

HJ

talking about hostels and placers where there are no petrel stations. there are only a few towns on some stretches.

[hikin_jim]

Ah. Gotcha.

Well, whether HEET is available or denatured, either should do pretty well.

HJ

[Wise Old Owl]

Let me clear something up: The downside to open burners is that you can't control boil off. Methanol's lower vapor pressure, which makes it easier to use in cold weather, also means that it boils easier than ethanol. And more can boil off than can burn. You can smell the unburned alcohol and you can see it collect on the bottom of a cold pan. You could probably setup a condenser (think moonshine still) and extract the unburned alcohol out of the exhaust.

Or get the first ten gallons from a shiner?

I will be the first to say I would like to see this in a Youtube... Nothing wrong with the explanation, just needs definition.

if your on the trail denatured will be the easiest to get. heet second. other stuff will be hard to find.

Maildrops? - or inform folks along the trail

Relax, WOO, it's not explosive. Now, what happens to your personality after you drink it, now that might be explosive.

It's pretty tough to get high concentration ethanol unless you want to pay the $$$'s for Everclear. Sunnyside denatured alcohol and Klean Strip Green denatured alcohol have good ethanol content and are more reasonably priced.

HJ

Yes it is - some alcohol stoves are pressurized and I have had one explode and my clothing burned off of me.

Guys be very careful handling Methanol. If Methanol finds it's way into your body, cuts on your hands, inhalation, contamination with food or drink, it will never leave you. Your body can not process out this chemical. Continued exposure over time can cause blindness, cataracts, and liver damage. That said, I use it all the time, but I am very careful not to expose myself while handling it and I never carry it in or near my pots and food bag.

Interesting. What you're saying is more in line with my understanding of the toxicity of methanol.

I've been using methanol in various forms for stove fuel for several years. No ill effects as yet.

HOWEVER, better safe than sorry. Based on our discussion here, I put together a new post: Methanol -- Safe Handling. Have a look if you all have a chance and give me your feed backHJ

4 eye raises good information. Can't wait to see it.

I think the biggest threat methanol poses is to children. Because we repackage it for our own specialized use it could be mistaken for something to drink. DO NOT leave it where kids can get into it. Adults handling any kind of chemical should learn the dangers before using it.

This comes off as a misconception... Moytoy - sounds like the very fears the news is conditioning for us to be very afraid. Although good advice you gave - the numbers and hospital tracking of incidents is so low its not charted even for stupid adults.... last charting or study was in 1930 "from the Internet and the NY papers" - 14 people accidentally drank this in NY in that year.

Here is a different take not to take light - ASPIRIN is DANGEROUS it contains BIRD PISS! ohh wait some old folk are on a aspirin regimen for heart health.

Why would I write that... frustration we are an educated lot of folk. everyday in my job people tell me they are sensitive to chemicals and they use underarm deodorant. - the stuff has a government Warning. Yet they think pest control is DANGEROUS... its not... it regulated... its more about an informed client.

Really, you remember stuff from 2 years ago? You should change your name to wise old elephant.

There is a story behind that, I am not quite sure how to take your post.... people were putting methanol in soda bottles for their lightness - I called them on it and got burned... I was trying to inform - not teach - and it backfired.... so I looked at what you wrote and I went "oh wow -hmmm yea good luck with that...." Its the INTERNET not personal.

Fyi - I am walking down a hall in college (a state away) and I see a woman that clearly was memorable. It was Blair Weir from 2nd grade all grown up, and I had not seen her since... we didn't even have the same class - just from the bus trip.... she was stunned that I picked her out.This is the best example. I have done that many times.. yea damned elephant.... Its good to remember people.

[hikin_jim]

Hey, woo,

At least they're comparing your memory to that of an elephant's. God forbid that anyone should mistake your waistline for that of an elephant.

HJ

[Wise Old Owl]

Ouch........ Too many mice

[atraildreamer]

I guess though that a lot of gas stations are going to stop carrying it now that gasoline contains something like 10% ethanol. Kind of makes the HEET redundant.HJ

A knowledgeable mechanic friend of mine said that the 10% ethanol in the gas does not have the same water absorbing qualities as methanol. This is possibly due to he fact that ethanol is extremely hydoscopic{?} (likes to absorb water). The ethanol in the gas probably has absorbed all the water it can hold (about 5%) prior to blending. I still use a Heet Yellow every fill-up in the winter months.

An afterthought: If ethanol absorbs 5% of it weight in water, and there is a 10% concentration in our gas, then does that mean that there is
0.64 ounces of water in every gallon of gas we buy? (128 ounces/gallon x .10 x 0.05= 0.64 ounces water/gallon). In a typical 15 gallon tank, that is 9.6 ounces of water! Multiply that by millions of cars. We are being charged outrageous prices for a watered down product! What a racket!

[hikin_jim]

A knowledgeable mechanic friend of mine said that the 10% ethanol in the gas does not have the same water absorbing qualities as methanol.

Interesting. I really don't know about how much water is already absorbed into the gasoline we buy. Interesting question. Maybe I'll ask around about that.

HJ

[mkmangold]

Here is a very practical question: has anyone done the research and number crunching to find out just how many people have been poisoned and/or killed by methanol on the AT or any long trail for that matter? I'd also like to find out how many people have been harmed by eating those little dessication packs that have the warning "Do Not Eat" printed right on the pack.

[atraildreamer]

Here is a very practical question: has anyone done the research and number crunching to find out just how many people have been poisoned and/or killed by methanol on the AT or any long trail for that matter? I'd also like to find out how many people have been harmed by eating those little dessication packs that have the warning "Do Not Eat" printed right on the pack.

How many people eat the little labels that are stuck on pieces of fruit?

[Wise Old Owl]

Here is a very practical question: has anyone done the research and number crunching to find out just how many people have been poisoned and/or killed by methanol on the AT or any long trail for that matter? I'd also like to find out how many people have been harmed by eating those little dessication packs that have the warning "Do Not Eat" printed right on the pack.

I did look into it, most articals that tracked in were during the prohibition times such as "60 people died in NYC" from alcohol poisoning.... its not been tracked since.

[Wise Old Owl]

Everclear or pure Ethanol was a disappointment, Taking the above measurements 20 ml of Ethanol boiled water a little longer than six minutes. So Ethanol is not as hot and it burns slightly slower. It did keep going for an extra minute after achieving temp. But thats a two minute difference over Methanol.

It also shows up in how the stove preforms, Methanol burns a deep almost unsee-able blue. Ethanol is more yellow - therefor cooler. Everclear is 180 proof and just nasty...... can't imagine drinking it.

[rocketsocks]

boy, that'll take your Hoo away!Quick too!

[rocketsocks]

Maybe even leave you Hooless

[Wise Old Owl]

The methanol thread keeps coming up over and over.

Yes it is metabolized and the body naturally can deal with small (trace) amounts that you might get from incidental contact/fumes. Drink it - you die. Allow someone else to get a hold of your methanol and accidentally drink it - even worse - so be sure to label well.

I doubt the fumes from a burning stove are worse from methanol than ethanol. Alcohol stoves burn very efficiently so not much unburned fuel should be released. I would think that carbon monoxide from partially burned fuel is the real problem there, and that can be just as much a problem with ethanol. So don't burn your stove indoors.

BTW, Nutra Sweet is a methyl ester of a dipeptide, so when that is hydrolyzed, you produce methanol. It's not a big deal since you only produce milligram (maybe microgram) amounts.

There are clear differences after three 20 ml burns of Methanol in the kitchen my throat hurt like hell the rest of the night.