why no privy's

[Digger'02]

I have no idea what goes on to build a privy on the trail most of the time
But counties, often will have sewer and sanitation laws that have to be followed.
It is not necessarily legal to just dig a hole and let people start crapping in it. Even if that happens in lots of places.
Laws are in place to protect water sources and prevent spread of disease.

Im actually quite amazed that any privys exist at all. Constructing an unnapproved, uninspected waste treatement facility in what amounts to a national park sure seems like it would be difficult.

Privies are 1) approved by land management agency and 2) have an established maintenance and inspection plan. This process includes, among other things a NEPA review. Its pretty rough to start a comment with "I have no idea what goes on..." and end with such an inflammatory statement.

[Digger'02]

You don't need a rock bar, a 2" fallen limb will do.
For better or worse, it's not a wilderness experience. The load (as it were) of users is far too high. Let's face it, popular sections like Erwin to Damascus just gets too much use (and inexperienced use at that). Even if every hiker made a perfect cathole (and managed to hit the target) you'd sill have a mess.
I'm with Weary--if you are going to concentrate use by building shelters and campsites, then you need to deal with concentrated waste as well. People don't poop in the middle of their hiking day, they poop at the shelter. It's just not that hard to build and maintain a privy or thunder box. If MATC can do it so can TEHCC.

Cosmo

Not sure where the rock bar issue comes in, and I'll let the "wilderness experience" conversation slide as well, but concerning privies in the TEHCC section...its pretty much TEHCC's call how their section of trail is managed and they have earned some respect, the section is in better shape than it ever has been and the've got hundreds of thousands of hours logged. MATC would not want anyone telling them how to handle their sh%t, so taking pot shots at the Canoeing Club is probably not helpful. I am sure that the TEHCC thinks about and weigh the options involving privies frequently and with a thoughtful process. Lets not assume we know more than the people who have managed this section of the A.T. for the last 50 years just because they have come to a different conclusion than we might have.

[FlyPaper]

I would think this would only apply if federal funds are being used to build the privies. Most privies on the trail are not handicap accessible.

Most likely it is lack of volunteers and/or lack of funds in the relevant areas.

Old topic, but since someone just revived it--

It's been quite a while now, but I recall Bob Peoples (TEHC) citing the difficulty of compliance with Federal handicap accessibility laws as the reason for the TEHC's lack of privys. Anyone else have this recollection?

[turtle fast]

I have seen poop above water sources....its going to just be a matter of time before someone gets seriously ill from contamination. I mean, who in their right mind poops above or close to a water source? Not in the TEHCC's area, but I saw in the Smokeys too entire poop fields above springs. I wish people used their brains, but many don't think about who is coming behind them. I think privies will be the future to concentrate the fecal impact.

[Digger'02]

I would think this would only apply if federal funds are being used to build the privies. Most privies on the trail are not handicap accessible.

Most likely it is lack of volunteers and/or lack of funds in the relevant areas.

-What makes you think that most of the privies are not accessible?

[MuddyWaters]

Privies are 1) approved by land management agency and 2) have an established maintenance and inspection plan. This process includes, among other things a NEPA review. Its pretty rough to start a comment with "I have no idea what goes on..." and end with such an inflammatory statement.

I dont think it was an inflamatory statement. I have some experience installing waste treatment at a hunting camp on private land so that we could get electricity run to the property. The specs for moldering privies I considered was quite detailed, and I cant say the ones Ive seen on the AT evoke a sense of adherence to some rigid guidelines.

If they all are in fact, planned, approved, and monitored that is a very good thing, and is what I would expect. But it also hints at the difficulties, and why possibly there arent more of them.

As far as contaminating water, any where you poop in the mountains, will run downhill eventually. Contamination of local mountain spring water sources arent the end of the contamination concern, the communities residing in lower valleys have to be concerned with it too, especially if their water supplies come from surface water.

[Digger'02]

I dont think it was an inflamatory statement. I have some experience installing waste treatment at a hunting camp on private land so that we could get electricity run to the property. The specs for moldering privies I considered was quite detailed, and I cant say the ones Ive seen on the AT evoke a sense of adherence to some rigid guidelines.

If they all are in fact, planned, approved, and monitored that is a very good thing, and is what I would expect. But it also hints at the difficulties, and why possibly there arent more of them.

As far as contaminating water, any where you poop in the mountains, will run downhill eventually. Contamination of local mountain spring water sources arent the end of the contamination concern, the communities residing in lower valleys have to be concerned with it too, especially if their water supplies come from surface water.

Maybe I misread. There are some priviy issues out there, that can't be denied. I build 'em, clean 'em and use 'em but I wish that we didn't need 'em but I guess we do in many spots. The ones I've been a part of adhere to rigid standards including testing for potential waste hazards. Moldering privies, properly used are pretty amazing when it comes to turning poop into dirt.

[bamboo bob]

Unfortunately, seriously. Yet another example of bureaucracy overpowering common sense.

In the Whites huts have ADA compliant privies for all the wheel chairs that make up the ridges. What BS.

[Hikes in Rain]

A lot of my former work involved ADA. I agree, whole heartedly!

[Wise Old Owl]

wait ...wait...fling poo.... ahe crap never-mind......

[weary]

In the Whites huts have ADA compliant privies for all the wheel chairs that make up the ridges. What BS.

Blame Congress and the handicapped access lobby groups -- not the bureaucrats who are just carrying out the requirements of the law. Advocates of all ilks tend to overreach. We have become a society that no longer welcomes compromise and common sense. It's true of all sides of the political spectrum.

[Rasty]

In the Whites huts have ADA compliant privies for all the wheel chairs that make up the ridges. What BS.

The ADA compliance is confusing many times. We have to allow 36" clearance for a wheel chair to work in a commercial kitchen yet none of the appliances are required to be wheel chair accessable. Someone in a wheel chair wouldn't be able to reach the stove, oven, etc. The same clearance rules are mandated to get behind the bar which they would be unable to reach the bar because of the sinks and coolers under the bar.

Next is going to be wheel chair access required for Iron Workers when building skyscrapers.

[FlyPaper]

-What makes you think that most of the privies are not accessible?

Most I have seen have steps that lead up to a platform or small room, with no ramp. Regardless of whether they ARE handicap accessible, I'm saying that they are not REQUIRED to be handicap accessible unless it is a restriction based on the funding source.

[Cadenza]

Blame Congress and the handicapped access lobby groups -- not the bureaucrats who are just carrying out the requirements of the law. Advocates of all ilks tend to overreach. We have become a society that no longer welcomes compromise and common sense. It's true of all sides of the political spectrum.

I have a friend who was running a kickboxing school.
The minions of the government forced him to spend $30,000 installing a handicap accessible bathroom. The fact that none of his students were in wheel chairs was irrelevant.

[Papa D]

I have a friend who was running a kickboxing school.
The minions of the government forced him to spend $30,000 installing a handicap accessible bathroom. The fact that none of his students were in wheel chairs was irrelevant.

I too agree that handicapped accessed privies are sort of silly, but you are saying that you're friend spent an additional $30K to make one bathroom ADA Compliant? I've built quite a few ADA compliant bathrooms and it simply requires increased turning radius, a 36" door with a special handle (not necessary on an open doored privy), an elongated bowl toilet and grab bars. There are a number of ADA compliant privies on the AT now (the new one at Cable Gap, NC comes to mind) - - you have to build it a little bigger and add grab bars - very silly, I agree but it adds no more than a couple of hundred dollars to a privy and shouldn't add more than a couple of thousand to an existing commercial bathroom - - must be more to that story.

[Cadenza]

We aren't talking about just hand rails and a wider door!
It's about corrupt government officials, civil engineers, contractors, and a "good ole boy" kickback system.

First comes the permit, then the environmental impact study, then the architectural drawings, the codes inspections, the "approved" contractor list, etc.

I have property in Florida. The county government forced me to spend $35k on 40 feet of "super asphalt" and a commercial driveway apron. It had to be big enough to meet specs to pull an 18 wheeler in there,.....even though it went to a dirt road and no 18 wheeler has ever been there,....or will be there.
Because the civil engineering firm had specified super asphalt, regular asphalt was not acceptable. Wouldn't you know,...there were only three contractors in the county approved for super asphalt,.....all friends of the civil engineering firm and county planning commission. The county inspector had never seen "super" asphalt, didn't know how to handle it, had to call his supervisor to the scene. The supervisor determined that it was too hot, ordered it returned and a new load brought in. (I don't know why they couldn't just let it cool down.)
Not only that, but I was required to cede 40 feet of road frontage land to the county for $1.

Then, three years later I wanted to build a 40 X 60 ft pole barn. I got a price from the contractor for $16k.
Trusses, metal roof, etc.
Every board connection had three 16p nails. The codes inspector came in and demanded that they add a 4th nail to every joint.
Because it was located in what is considered wetlands, the Southwest Water Management Agency (known locally as "Swift Mud") was involved. I forget the exact number, but the permit for that was in the $5-8k range.
By the time I was done paying off the county,.....it cost me just over $30k..........for a $16k pole barn!

I never intended to get off on this subject, but it's an example of how the government is an obstacle to doing business. And for a small business,.....it can be a kiss of death.

My friend with the kickboxing school was in California. You can imagine the looney tunes and over-the-top regulations there!

[Digger'02]

We aren't talking about just hand rails and a wider door!
It's about corrupt government officials, civil engineers, contractors, and a "good ole boy" kickback system.

First comes the permit, then the environmental impact study, then the architectural drawings, the codes inspections, the "approved" contractor list, etc.

I have property in Florida. The county government forced me to spend $35k on 40 feet of "super asphalt" and a commercial driveway apron. It had to be big enough to meet specs to pull an 18 wheeler in there,.....even though it went to a dirt road and no 18 wheeler has ever been there,....or will be there.
Because the civil engineering firm had specified super asphalt, regular asphalt was not acceptable. Wouldn't you know,...there were only three contractors in the county approved for super asphalt,.....all friends of the civil engineering firm and county planning commission. The county inspector had never seen "super" asphalt, didn't know how to handle it, had to call his supervisor to the scene. The supervisor determined that it was too hot, ordered it returned and a new load brought in. (I don't know why they couldn't just let it cool down.)
Not only that, but I was required to cede 40 feet of road frontage land to the county for $1.

Then, three years later I wanted to build a 40 X 60 ft pole barn. I got a price from the contractor for $16k.
Trusses, metal roof, etc.
Every board connection had three 16p nails. The codes inspector came in and demanded that they add a 4th nail to every joint.
Because it was located in what is considered wetlands, the Southwest Water Management Agency (known locally as "Swift Mud") was involved. I forget the exact number, but the permit for that was in the $5-8k range.
By the time I was done paying off the county,.....it cost me just over $30k..........for a $16k pole barn!

I never intended to get off on this subject, but it's an example of how the government is an obstacle to doing business. And for a small business,.....it can be a kiss of death.

My friend with the kickboxing school was in California. You can imagine the looney tunes and over-the-top regulations there!

ugh.....
Back on topic.
1) privies must be accessible
2) its not hard or expensive (you don't need hand rails for example)
3) it's not just for people in wheelchairs

[Speakeasy TN]

Far and away my least favorite part of the trail was the Smokies, precisely because of the minefields that you are required to camp in............ geez!

[MuddyWaters]

Well, we could all just carry PVC pipe, and pack it out.

[Blue Mountain Edward]

How about portojohns at road crossings. There are pay ones thet cost a quarter or two to use if price is a issue. Who would volunteer to empty a composting toilet and that compost is a biohazard. How about crapping in a fire ring and it will get burned up seeing how playing with fire is so popular.