Average time through the whites and lodging

[FarmerChef]

So I'm sure this has been done before and if there's already a thread to this effect, please point me to it. I read the article on average section times but the times listed were much slower than what I and my family typically hike so I fear the estimates for the whites will be off. In order to answer my question (forthcoming) a little background is probably in order...

My family and I (me, wife, kids - 12, 10, 7, and the dog (Husky)) have completed about 750 miles of trail. Our average daily mileage through all of it has been between 18-20 miles with several days around 25. And, in case you're wondering, the 7 year old still runs around camp giggling when we're done with those 25s . The rest of us just want to eat and go to bed.

Another background tidbit is that we try to minimize lodging costs on hikes since there are 5 of us and it adds up quickly. $90 a night per person at an AMC hut is just not doable for us. Work for stay won't work either. Campsites are better but still expensive. Don't get me wrong, we're willing to pay where appropriate and always donate at hostels.

We are on a 4 year plan to finish the AT and are due to hit the whites in 2014 as we do the final push to Katahdin. But I'm thinking of bumping the whites to the end of next year depending on how much time it will take to complete them, PTO available, etc. and our expected fitness level at that point in the season. This impacts our current year of hiking in a cascade effect. So, here are my two questions:

1. If we're used to doing 18-20 through VA, PA, NJ, NY what should we expect in the whites?
2. What are our lodging options besides huts and campsites?

[10-K]

That is one amazing family you have there!

I slackpacked the 26 miles from Franconia Notch back to the hostel in Glencliff in one day but after that I dropped down to about 15 mpd because I stayed at every other hut doing work for stay.

From Bear Mt., NY to Glencliff I was getting at least 20 and closer to 23-24 every day without too much trouble.

So... to answer your #1 question my guess would be about 15 mpd.

As for #2 I just remember thinking that I was sure glad I had the huts and didn't have to figure out where to camp at night. I was very happy to get to Gorham.

[Llama Legs]

I wouldn't count on averaging anywhere near 20's in the Whites. I hiked down from the Garfield water source with a young lady and a teenage boy and it took us almost an hour to go 0.6 mile...downhill !! That hike however does pre-date my ultralight conversion/fetish.

[peakbagger]

You probably wont believe me but plan on two miles an hour plus 1/2 hour for each 1000 feet gained including short hourly breaks (not lunch) and cap the first few days at 7 to 8 hours of hiking. If you push too hard the first day, whatever you gain is going to be lost the next one. This is the AMC formula but its pretty representative. So that is 14 to 16 miles per day minus the time lost in elevation gain. If you climb up 2000 feet total subtract 1/2 hour per 1000 or 2 miles so that day is 12 to 14 miles. Take a look at the AT profile map for the whites and you will start to figure it out that you will be slowing down and the hike from Glencliff up Moosilaukee will be a somewhat rude awakening. A lot to be said for slackpacking.

As for camping options, if you dont want to pay, then you are using so called "stealth sites" above treeline or dispersed sites below treeline. The list of stealth sites is not generally published, the hostel in Glencliff usually has a list but obviously publishing a list of stealth sites makes them not very stealthy. On the stretch between Mitzpah and Madison hut, your options are limited, you bascially need to drop down 1000 feet in elevation and about 1 mile to get below treeline to a spot where the woods are thin enough and flat enough to camp or pay lots of money at Lake of the Clouds. The Dungeon at Lakes is very rude, it normally smells like an outhouse.

Finding a place for a large tent is an issue at any dispersed site. You generally will be dry camping although frequently you will be passing water sources on your way down off the ridge. There are a couple of trails, Amoonusuc and anything in Tuckermans Ravine area where you cant do this as they are restricted use areas. If you dont want to drop off the ridge, you will end up at a AMC backcountry shelter which was $8 per person per night. These places were not built randomly, they are usually located in spots where camping options are limited by terrain or vegetation and are logical places to stop. In the northern presidentials, you basically need to plan to have to pay as the walk down off of treeline is ever farther. Randolph Mountain club has the Perch, Crag Camp and GrayKnob which all require a fee they are still a wak off the ridge but you would have to go a lot farther off to find anywhere campable.

Generally the weather above treeline can get nasty, and afternoon thrundershowers usually are possible one in three days. The air also can get unhealthy up high in the summer as the same weather systems that cause the extreme weahter conditions can also bring in smog from all over new england. On hot and humid days it can really cut your miles.

[Slo-go'en]

Generally the weather above treeline can get nasty, and afternoon thrundershowers usually are possible one in three days. The air also can get unhealthy up high in the summer as the same weather systems that cause the extreme weahter conditions can also bring in smog from all over new england. On hot and humid days it can really cut your miles.

Like today. The smog from the midwest and/or midatlantic just showed up. I can't even see the summits today. Kinda looks and feels like a T storm brewing, but that will likely come in another day or two. Glad I went up there the last two weekends when it was still cool and could see for a 100 miles.

Anywhere you have to do a climb, figure on 1 mph. The big rocks and giant steps slows down people with short legs. If you can do 2 mph the rest of the time, your doing really well. You might want to leave the dog home, NH isn't great trail for dogs, it can be really hard on thier paws.

Stealth camping is a contensious issue around here. For a solo hiker, some spots can on occasion and on some streaches of trail be found. Most of these sites are technically illegal, as thier too close to the trail or water sources. In theory, you need to be 200 feet from the trail or water and in most places, you can't see more than 20 feet off the trail, so knowing there is a place to camp 200 feet away takes psychic ability.

For a family of 5, good luck. It is illegal to camp with in 1/4 mile of roads, huts, designated camping areas (tent platforms) or above tree line. From a practical stand point, you can't camp on the steep slope of the mountain or where the trees are so thick you can't get more than a few feet off the trail, or where the ground is covered in large rocks and tree limbs, which is just about everywhere.

The bottom line is if you can't afford the overnight fees at the tent platforms, you need to stay home and save more money. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

[DavidNH]

Farmer Chef.. plan on 10 miles per day in the whites. The White Mountains are a zillion plus times more rugged than Pennsylania and New Jersey. 20 miles per day is no big deal in PA MD or NJ but in the whites, that would be a serious accomplishment, especially with kids, a dog, and a heavy pack.

As for lodging.. other than huts or campsites? Well if you can't afford or don't want to spring for 8-10 bucks to a caretaker at a campsite.. then you should cancel your trip and stay home as slo-goen suggests. There might be one camp site where there's no fee. Otherwise there are fees. The huts during summer are expensive and always full. Thru hikers can get by on work for stays but that might not work for a family.

I want to discourage you from attempting to stealth camp. Don't even think of stealth camping above treeline. Aside from environmental impact, aside from the fact that it's illegal, if a storm comes in you could be in deep trouble. These are not the southern Appalachians. The weather can go down the tubes in a hurry and bring on hypothermic conditions even in summer. Hurricane force winds can blow on the heights at any time of year, though July and August tend to be benign. Furthermore, the White Mountains are very crowded. You can't just disappear into the woods like you can down south. Plus, aside from designated sites (where there's almost always a care taker and a fee) there are very few if any spots where it's even possible to stealth camp due to steep terrain and/or thick underbrush.

Long story short.. if/when you plan to hike through the White Mountains.. do it right.. plan to spend some money.. use the camp sites.. even save up for at least one hut night experience (reserve months in advance). check out www.outdoors.org for public lodging in white mountains.

Let me close though by saying I really admire you and your family. You are taking wife, kids and family dog through some of the most beautiful parts of the East along the AT. You will all see sights most families never see. Your kids will remember this the rest of their lives!

DavidNH

[mountain squid]

So, here are my two questions:

1. If we're used to doing 18-20 through VA, PA, NJ, NY what should we expect in the whites?
2. What are our lodging options besides huts and campsites?

This is what I always suggest to hikers:

1. Whatever you think your hourly average is, cut that in half and plan accordingly. If you think you do 3 mph (yeah, I know, everyone thinks they do 3 mph), then only plan 1.5 mph through The Whites. Make an intinerary with this plan and in accordance with the locations of the campsites.
2. I never suggest to a hiker to plan to just do a 'work-for-stay' in the huts. There is always the possibility that they won't let you stay. If you have made an itinerary, you can likely avoid the huts by staying at the shelters/campsites (there are 2 other free sites - Valley Way and Osgood) for a minimal fee.


The Whites are very difficult. The terrain is so steep that there are many places where you won't even be able to do half of your hourly average - you'll be happy with 1 mph. The terrain is not the only difficulty obviously. The weather can also slow you down. You might find that you are able to do your regular hourly average at some places, but the weather might not allow you to hike more than 4-5 hours (or less). (I remember one spot, just below treeline. It was cold, windy and raining. Twice I had to duck back below treeline while waiting for better conditions, I lost an hour waiting. The better conditions never came. I contemplated going back down the way I had come, but in the end I finally decided to just go for it.)

Good Luck and Have Fun! Don't overestimate your abilities and don't underestimate the conditions!

See you on the trail,
mt squid

how to hike
some observations

[Rain Man]

I appreciate this thread, as Turtle2 (aka Tooth Fairy) and I are contemplating doing NH in August. My concern isn't as much paying for the huts as it is getting reservations at all. I contacted the AMC and got blown off with a "go to the website."

So, are the huts booked solid already? Or, can we still get reservations some how?

Thanks for the advice on mileage, as that will help know what huts to check on for each day.

Rain Man

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[tdoczi]

I appreciate this thread, as Turtle2 (aka Tooth Fairy) and I are contemplating doing NH in August. My concern isn't as much paying for the huts as it is getting reservations at all. I contacted the AMC and got blown off with a "go to the website."

So, are the huts booked solid already? Or, can we still get reservations some how?

Thanks for the advice on mileage, as that will help know what huts to check on for each day.

Rain Man

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ive never had a problem getting a spot midweek. weekends may be different, and ive never tried in august. i was once at lakes of the "crowds" mid week the 2nd week in june and there were about 10 people staying there that night. once at carter notch, on a weekend even, in early june i ended up with my own private bunkhouse.

its been a few years but i recall the online reservations on the website to work just fine.

[rickb]

The AMC caretaker sites in the Whites serve a great purpose, but can be avoided easily along most of the AT as it passes through the WMNF-- if you are an experienced hiker. They are convenient, but unlike fee-based campsites in the front country evey one is billed on a "per person" basis. That makes them very expeniseve for a young family and is a mojor shortcoming in how they have structured the program, I think.

Be that as it may, you should keep in mnd that most responsible hikers have a incorrect understanding of the reulations in place int he Whites. The restrictions are numerouse but not nearly so encompaning as many would have you believe. They are confusing the "LNT" recommendations with the actual regulations.

By way of example, there is no blanket requirement to camp off trail any specific distance if you are not in a wilderness area. There is not blanket requirement to camp a specific distance away from every water source -- though you must keep you distancefrom those enumerated in the published back country camping rules.

P

[rickb]

Here is a link to the Backcountry Camping Regs:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_...63715.pdfmping rules:

The pamphlet is confusing-- by design I think. In addition to the regulations themselves there is a setion that includes LNT recommendations-- be sure not to confuse the two. For example whiile the regulations will prohibit camping withing 200' of specific ponds, the LNT recommendations will suggest you don't camp within 200' of every pond. The distinction is important.


With a topo and some experience, legal off trail camping sites can be found along the AT throught the White. The biggest challenge is the strech between Nauman Tent Site and Valley Way, but I am confident you can figure it out-- if you remain flexible with water and open to adding a few more ups and downs. Keep in mind that most thru hiker would not consider a dry camp, would not consider dropping 1000 feet of elevetion to find a site, and have NEVER camped anywhere that was out of site of the trail. I am guessing you are not like most hikers.

[peakbagger]

The huts do book up early on weekends. There are cancelations but they are generally last minute related to weather. Most people going to a hut are doing hut to hut, if the forecast is nasty, many cut their trip short leaving vacancies, unfortunately its hard to plan. Good luck stringing a trip together in August, it definitely will be mid week. The computer reservations are "real time", I dont see how a reservation system could be any better

I am not advocating stealth camping above treeline especially for a family group. I would definitely consider places like the Jewell trail site I have posted about previously if the weather is reasonable. The site is not official and has no amenities and is right off the trail so it most likley will never be made official but its under some treecover and is not an unreasonable distance off the ridge. The woods a few minutes below the "gate" on Edmands Path is similiar.

[FarmerChef]

Here is a link to the Backcountry Camping Regs:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_...63715.pdfmping rules:

Any chance you could resend that link? I got a 404 and the link formatting looks like a bad extension (.pdfmping). Thanks!


In response to others. If I have to pay at a campsite that's fine with me. What I'm trying to do is not leave the Whites with a $500+ campsite bill. I also noticed that campsites were billed per person not per site and that adds up quickly.

As for mileage thank you for the tips. That helps me calculate where we should expect to end up/shoot for on a daily basis knowing full well that the weather can, and probably will, throw our mileage off on at least a few of our days. Looks like I have some calculating to do...

[FarmerChef]

Nevermind about the link. I just stripped off the mping and it works fine. Thanks.

[FarmerChef]

So I had another idea that seemed possible. But I'm not clear on the transportation options via the guide. Has anyone slackpacked the whites or significant portions? How did you get too and from the trail each day without having to pay for what I hear is the rather xpensive AMC shuttle?

[peakbagger]

Folks have slacked the whites in the past, there was an informal group of hostel owners that used to cover the area. They really dont exist anymore, as the economics dont make sense. Slackpacking can add a lot of miles in some spots.

Unfortunately plan on a lot of extra mileage as getting off the trail in the afternoon and back in the morning will entail 4 to 5 miles and 2 to 3 thousand foot climb. Unless you can hook up with someone who wants to hang out at a campground and have him shuttle you, you are better off hiking it through and only have to mess with one shuttle.

The AMC shutltes dont work for slackpacking, they are run midmorning and mid afternoon. Most hikers want to get on the trail early in the AM and come down late.

[FarmerChef]

Thanks peakbagger. Actually, having some one hang out at a campground is exactly what I was thinking. We have good friends who'd come up to stay at a timeshare in the area and then would slackpack us every day or maybe every other day. What I was worried about is where the access points (if any) are. I've heard that you can't just drive up to any point in the trail - only AMC shuttles are allowed past a certain point. Can folks confirm?

[tdoczi]

its a ton of driving to slack in the whites. parts can be done- moosilauke, kinsman ridge, possibly wildcat-carter, but the middle as others have said involves hiking lots of extra trail and going up and down in the process in order to get out in the middle of a roadless section.

and i'm not kidding about the driving. the drive around moosilauke alone is probably 30-40 mins to get from one end of 9 miles of trail to the other.