I may have asked this some time ago, but will ask again..............

[Windcatcher]

Some of my gear is UL, some isn't. Some UL gear works, some doesn't. Some of my gear weighs a lot and I still use it. I use different gear for different trips. Carry what you want when you want - you're carrying it. Hike as short or long as you care to - you're walking it. Enjoy your time outside how you choose to - it's your time. I do enjoy gear talk, but only on a positive note. If gear becomes an "issue", then people are looking at it the wrong way and it's not for me. It's about getting outside, enjoying nature, enjoying ourselves, enjoying the company of others on the trail. Hike safe, have fun.

[Snowleopard]

I'd say hike your own hike. But, when advising someone who is inexperienced, I advise them to lighten up. If a beginner wants to carry a heavy load I'd advise them to try a couple of 10 mile days carrying their full load; if they find it's within their physical capability, fine. It's good that we inform them that it is possible to go quite light, but it's their choice.

I admire TipiWalter's approach and look forward to his trip reports. But, the only way I can manage those loads would be on a sled in winter as the hot tent folks do. I try to keep my load down because I'm getting too old to hike with a heavy pack. I'm probably at 20 lbs for a couple days trip. If I'm missing anything I need, it's because I forgot it, not because of carrying ultralight to an extreme.

[Coffee Rules!]

I'd say hike your own hike. But, when advising someone who is inexperienced, I advise them to lighten up. If a beginner wants to carry a heavy load I'd advise them to try a couple of 10 mile days carrying their full load; if they find it's within their physical capability, fine. It's good that we inform them that it is possible to go quite light, but it's their choice.

I like that. THIS is the kind of helpful info that drew me here and I heard so much good about. Pass on your wisdom and experience but don't insist it's the One True Path.

Thanks as well to Windcatcher and whoever posted last on the previous page. I forget the name and I'm not going through what little trouble it'd be to look back before posting. I'm typing my own type. Anyway, great thoughts.

[bigcranky]

Am I wrong in seeing that the attitude these days is that once the ultra-lite hiker sees you carrying what they consider to be too much or unnecessary things, that they look at you or tell you that you are doing something wrong, even if you don't complain about any part of what you are carrying?

My personal experience is the opposite: "traditional" hikers have blasted me multiple times for "being unprepared." There's something about a small pack that gets a reaction from people, I guess. And no, I don't go around telling people that they are carrying too much stuff -- hey, I've been there. Everyone has to make this journey on their own.

[scree]

My personal experience is the opposite: "traditional" hikers have blasted me multiple times for "being unprepared." There's something about a small pack that gets a reaction from people, I guess. And no, I don't go around telling people that they are carrying too much stuff -- hey, I've been there. Everyone has to make this journey on their own.

I would only consider you (broadly, ULers) unprepared if you have to ask to borrow other people's stuff to get by. If you truly live with what you pack and you can do it light, more power to you.

I would, however, consider you unprepared if you don't have a sufficient first aid kit (FAK) to both help yourself with common ailments, to help stabilize an injured hiker for rescue, or help stabilize yourself. Ideally, if I find you injured on the trail I should be able to quickly find and use your FAK to take care of you without having to break out my own, but I will carry enough to help you if I need to. I strongly believe in an HYOH ethic, but to the extent that your actions or unpreparedness do not harm or inconvenience others.

[jakedatc]

I would only consider you (broadly, ULers) unprepared if you have to ask to borrow other people's stuff to get by. If you truly live with what you pack and you can do it light, more power to you.

I would, however, consider you unprepared if you don't have a sufficient first aid kit (FAK) to both help yourself with common ailments, to help stabilize an injured hiker for rescue, or help stabilize yourself. Ideally, if I find you injured on the trail I should be able to quickly find and use your FAK to take care of you without having to break out my own, but I will carry enough to help you if I need to. I strongly believe in an HYOH ethic, but to the extent that your actions or unpreparedness do not harm or inconvenience others.

How do you jump to the conclusion that people with a light pack do not have a first aid kit?

I think a lot of people carry a lot more than necessary and without the proper knowledge to actually use it.
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People with heavy packs that cannot move quickly are also a liability if weather comes up and you are on a peak or ridge, so just because you have a lot of stuff doesn't make you immune to problems. Also opens yourself for more mechanical injuries due to extra weight on joints and stability issues.

[10-K]

I don't carry an extensive first aid kit... Bandaids, neosporin, ibuprofen. I've got duct tape and a bandana that could be pressed into service if I needed it and a trekking pole would make a good splint.

I took a NOLS wilderness first aid course and after it was over I got uber paranoid about getting injured and by the time I bought everything I thought I needed my pack looked like a mini-crash cart. That didn't last long.

Where do you draw the line? ADE machine?

[scree]

How do you jump to the conclusion that people with a light pack do not have a first aid kit?

I didn't.

Good job on packing right.

[jakedatc]

Ok, i misunderstood where the tangent came from then.

as an athletic trainer treating injuries on a daily basis i pretty much know what stuff i use all the time. that is what i have packed there. plus a pair of gloves that blew off the table when i took the picture and a mylar blanket.

[MuddyWaters]

Theres not much of a first aid kit you actually need to carry. Mine weighs 2.5 oz, because I carry enough painkillers/anti-inflamatory to last a person 4 days IF necessary. Thats about 48 ibuprofen/tylenol

6' duct tape, couple of 2x2 guaze, some butterfly closures, bandaids, some neosporin packets, needle, unwaxed dental floss, small tube superglue. Ibuprofen, tylenol, benadryl, oxycodone, loperamide, and moleskin. Hand doubles as disenfectant too.

I can close any reasonable wound, including suturing if needed, bandage any wound (use bandana or clothing if necessary), splint an arm or leg using hiking pole or stick, make sling with bandana, treat serious pain with oxycodone (ahem..kidney stone, sprain, etc), diarhea, blisters.

Anything else, you probably have to get to a mountain top and dial 911 anyway

[scree]

Ok, i misunderstood where the tangent came from then.

as an athletic trainer treating injuries on a daily basis i pretty much know what stuff i use all the time. that is what i have packed there. plus a pair of gloves that blew off the table when i took the picture and a mylar blanket.

The point I was trying to make is that not packing something you end up needing, and then having to borrow it, definitely imposes on other people and presumes that other people will 1) want and 2) be able to help you.

I used the FAK as an example of an item that, in my own experience, causes me trouble several times a year in my volunteer work (I'm a WFR) when people are unprepared. While I don't mind using my kit if I have to (or in the case of volunteering, the provided kits), people have to recognize that I'm putting myself at greater risk by using my own supplies instead of theirs since they don't have them and I might need them myself later on. I wouldn't say its common, but I have seen UL lists that omit FAKs, so in those cases I'll try to step in and say something so people at least are aware that said practice can put them and others at risk.

Tangent wasn't intended to say that ULers suck at first aid or preparedness.. but I do think there are at least three types of ULer: 1) Those who don't bring enough because they don't know any better / think they are invincible 2) Those who think they can borrow other people's stuff and 3) Those who are experienced enough to know what they really need, and have it down to a science. I have a *lot* of respect and admiration for the latter... and in my experience, most of the people I've observed here seem to fit that. Number 1 is what I usually encounter when volunteering (and yes, they're generally what I'd call campers, even if they're out for a while), number 2 are just moochers in disguise.

If I sound like a jerk, I don't mean to - just find it to be a very interesting topic and don't always know the best words to use to put my own experience out there clearly enough to target it at the right problem.

[scree]

Theres not much of a first aid kit you actually need to carry. Mine weighs 2.5 oz, because I carry enough painkillers/anti-inflamatory to last a person 4 days IF necessary. Thats about 48 ibuprofen/tylenol

6' duct tape, couple of 2x2 guaze, some butterfly closures, bandaids, some neosporin packets, needle, unwaxed dental floss, small tube superglue. Ibuprofen, tylenol, benadryl, oxycodone, loperamide, and moleskin. Hand doubles as disenfectant too.

I can close any reasonable wound, including suturing if needed, bandage any wound (use bandana or clothing if necessary), splint an arm or leg using hiking pole or stick, make sling with bandana, treat serious pain with oxycodone (ahem..kidney stone, sprain, etc), diarhea, blisters.

Anything else, you probably have to get to a mountain top and dial 911 anyway

You're right on the last point - you'd have to call for help, and you'd have to count on it not arriving for 24-48 hours. It takes time to mobilize and it's very cost and labor intensive. The problem with "reasonable" wounds is that the ones you need help with aren't very agreeable.. I've personally seen compound ankle fractures in the field where the individual *could not* reasonably move to higher or lower ground on their own, but in which carrying a few "extra" supplies contributed to the successful extraction.

[Sarcasm the elf]

You're right on the last point - you'd have to call for help, and you'd have to count on it not arriving for 24-48 hours. It takes time to mobilize and it's very cost and labor intensive. The problem with "reasonable" wounds is that the ones you need help with aren't very agreeable.. I've personally seen compound ankle fractures in the field where the individual *could not* reasonably move to higher or lower ground on their own, but in which carrying a few "extra" supplies contributed to the successful extraction.

From your experience, what supplies do you recommend carrying that could help to stabilize compound fracture in the field? I always have a small but efficient FAK in my pack (including exam gloves) that is good for immediate problems but I hadn't thought about dealing with a potential 24-48 extraction time.

[10-K]

I guess my question is still at what point do you reach diminishing returns with the first aid kit?

Yes, it's true that this, that, or another thing might happen and if it did you'd wish you had what you needed to deal with it. For me, basic wound dressing, dealing with sprains, blister care, and being able to splint a broken bone is about my limit.

I've taken WFA, CPR (several times), and Red Cross first aid courses so I do know the basics.

One of the courses I took the instructor said:

"There are 3 kinds of injuries. The first kind is the kind that you're going to live through no matter what happens. The second kind is the kind you're going to die from no matter what happens. The third kind is what you need to be ready to deal with and that depends on where you're going."

[Tipi Walter]

I do think there are at least three types of ULer: 1) Those who don't bring enough because they don't know any better / think they are invincible 2) Those who think they can borrow other people's stuff and 3) Those who are experienced enough to know what they really need, and have it down to a science.

I like it when people break backpacking down into "lists"---to me it means they're thinking with some depth about what to most others is mere walking with weight. Your list gets me to thinking. The first is the most easily observed being that it's the main reason backpackers bail off the AT in the winter and occasional campers get walloped in substandard shelters. The most common problem is carrying inadequate clothing for conditions, usually warm temps turning to cold temps or wet conditions in high wind.

The second point is rarely encountered for me since most of the places I go are empty of people. The third category is fairly rare as most hard-core ULers seem to pull minimal trips with minimal food, or they are hiking the AT with access to box shelters and frequent resupply. And let's face it, a minimal kit fits a narrow set of weather and resupply parameters, like a single tool for a specific single job. The heavier or more traditional backpacker willing to carry some weight has a multi-tool for a variety of jobs---hot temps, cold rains at 40F, mountain bald camping with 50mph winds, serious multiple creek crossings (even a food load to stay out for three weeks w/o resupply), all these things can happen in a single trip.

[jakedatc]

Scree, no worries, i was just trying to get where you were coming from.

I have done 3 multi day warm up hikes with my new setup in preparation for the Long Trail next month. I try to evaluate what i've brought and what i can skip or replace with something else. One thing i do to lighten up is make sure items can be used multiple ways. my pants are zip off, my long sleeve shirt and/or down coat can be used to supplement my sleeping quilt. my filter "dirty water" bags can be used for extra pre-treated water storage, my hiking poles hold up my shelter. etc


Elf, sent you a PM for open fracture treatment from my Advanced wilderness first aid book. basically you don't need much extra. just gauze, splint material (stick, pole, sleeping pad etc), irrigation method.. clean water will do.

[MuddyWaters]

You're right on the last point - you'd have to call for help, and you'd have to count on it not arriving for 24-48 hours. It takes time to mobilize and it's very cost and labor intensive. The problem with "reasonable" wounds is that the ones you need help with aren't very agreeable.. I've personally seen compound ankle fractures in the field where the individual *could not* reasonably move to higher or lower ground on their own, but in which carrying a few "extra" supplies contributed to the successful extraction.

You can certainly be injured serious enough to die. But that is true anywhere. You cannot be afraid to be away from civilization and hospitals. You cant eliminate risk from life, even staying on the sofa brings its own risks with it.

Unless you Hike in the winter, you will likely be passed by a couple of people per day, regardless of where you are, as long as you stay on the trail. Someone will be able to get a call out sometime for help for you most likely, even if you are confined to one place with a broken leg or such.

[Smooth & Wasabi]

Personally I try to hike as light as I can safely and comfortably for the conditions while keeping gear spending within reason. While some traditional hikers might call me an ULer folks over at BPL would consider me "only" lightweight most of the time(that is if I bothered to make or constistently adhere to spreadsheets). I don't really care what others think about my gear. I am sure it has been pointed out in this lenghty thread by others but in real life I have never encountered someone who felt the need to browbeat me about my gear choices. Thankfully I think that only exists here on the net and and even here I think it can be avoided and certainly ignored.

[scree]

Scree, no worries, i was just trying to get where you were coming from.

I have done 3 multi day warm up hikes with my new setup in preparation for the Long Trail next month. I try to evaluate what i've brought and what i can skip or replace with something else. One thing i do to lighten up is make sure items can be used multiple ways. my pants are zip off, my long sleeve shirt and/or down coat can be used to supplement my sleeping quilt. my filter "dirty water" bags can be used for extra pre-treated water storage, my hiking poles hold up my shelter. etc


Elf, sent you a PM for open fracture treatment from my Advanced wilderness first aid book. basically you don't need much extra. just gauze, splint material (stick, pole, sleeping pad etc), irrigation method.. clean water will do.

Yeah, I don't want to turn this into a what-if or how-to thread, but one of the things often overlooked is a good irrigation method. I prefer a simple irrigation syringe, but having some water or a little extra (as clean as possible, e.g., retreated if used in a drinking vessel) is wise. Lots of people think moleskin, an ace bandage, and some ibuprofen will get them through anything, and that's the crowd I'm really targeting when I say they're not carrying enough. A reasonable FAK doesn't have to be huge... just sufficient.

Something I think is important to carry is Celox granule packets. This is used to stop bleeding by creating an artificial clot which holds up really well if pressure is maintained or enough of it is available for use. QuikClot is similar and has the added benefit of being available on pressure-ready sponges, but Celox packets weigh in at around 2grams each making them lighter and more available since packets can be rationed out instead of used all at once. In the case of the compound fracture, Celox combined with a gauze wound sponge and ace bandage was very useful for rapidly stopping bleeding. It's just an added foil pack - insignificant weight really, but great if you need it.

Another thing is a good source of added warmth to treat shock and reduce chances of hypothermia... hypothermia is *really* bad when combined with a wound, especially if diaphoresis (heavy sweating that comes with some injuries/shock) sets in. Lots of people don't consider how they're going to keep warm if they've soaked through their clothes from sweat after an injury. I keep a mylar emergency/space blanket in my FAK as added protection and as a shock blanket... which is also useful on very cold nights to augment an underquilt for keeping a little warmer in my hammock.

You all are right in saying that it probably won't happen - it's ultimately a risk decision. Is the likelihood that some injury might occur to you or someone you come across combined with its severity enough to warrant spending additional resources to train for it, or to carry extra gear to fight it? Most of the time you're fine - just have to realize that it's a gamble with a nasty payout, no matter how slim the odds.

[Coffee Rules!]

I'm curious about something. Has any consideration ever been given to the idea of placing more substantial first aid equipment at shelters?

Before the naysayers play Pounce On the Noob, I realize that there are MANY issues surrounding this.

1) It's not the responsibility of the ATC, various park/land management agencies, trail maintainers, or anyone else to provide such.

2) It wouldn't be cheap, and funding anything is always an issue, to go along with the cost of upkeep because some medical supplies have expiration dates.

3) Providing equipment could in some ways open up the provider to liability in the eyes of some (especially ambulance chasing, blanket-lawsuit-filing lawyers).

4) It's the hiker's responsibilty to have a FAK.

5) Knowing there are kits at shelters could/would cause some hikers to be complacent.

6) There's the possibility of well-intentioned folks causing more harm by not knowing what they're doing with the equipment. True, but I'm not talking about surgical setups and IV's or technical rescue gear. Just some things that could assist with stabilization for that previously mentioned 24-48 hour period until rescuers arrive. I won't bother listing examples, as it's not really necessary. I'm sure you all can come up with as many or more ideas than I can.

There are probably more considerations; I just wanted to list some to show the know-it-all types that yes, I have put a little thought into it to possibly stave off some of the BS flak.

ALL I'M DOING is asking a question if it's been considered, discussed, etc. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to do anything or even (heaven forbid a noob overstep boundaries) suggest something. Some of you here seem to have a finger on the pulse of those who know/do such things.