Cooking at shelters

[Beccah]

Total newbie question:

All of the advice I've seen about camping in bear country has suggested the 100m triangle for optimum safety (cook, hang, and sleep in 3 different places 100m apart from each other). However, a lot of the photos I see from AT shelters shows cook stoves and meals set up at the shelter. Does anyone think this promotes bear encounters at shelters? Or do you think bears will check out shelters either way since humans = food?

I recently checked out trail updates on the ATC website and it seemed like a lot of them involved nuisance bears at various shelters. Then today, I saw a YouTube video where a group of hikers placed their food bags on top of the shelter as there was no ideal hang location and no bear cables. While the story was anecdotal and I got a good laugh out of it, I wondered why the hikers were all surprised to wake up and find a bear trying to climb the shelter.

I'm just curious what people's opinions are of this.

[Wise Old Owl]

Bears don't enjoy cooking. - They are far more patient.

Bears prefer - all night long!

[aficion]

Shelters concentrate mice, people, and problem bears into an area. This is because of the food humans, bring, cook, leave out, hang nearby, and drop about. If you cook in a shelter, be sure not to burn it down. Some of us who won't stay anywhere near one, for obvious reasons, kind of appreciate their being there. Leaves more elbow room for those who like to sleep in the woods.

[rickb]

Most thu hikers count themselves lucky to see a bear at a shelter. I think I will post a poll.

[aficion]

Most thu hikers count themselves lucky to see a bear at a shelter. I think I will post a poll.

The scout troop around Byrd's Nest shelter on Old Rag weren't thu hikers, just overnighters, yet they did not consider themselves lucky to see the two bears rip through several of their tents. We were camped a tenth of a mile away and were only spared because we tended a medium sized fire all night. We frequently saw the two bears circling our camp throughout the night. The memory of the screams of the scouts helped keep us awake. Some park bears will come right into camp.l

[Sarcasm the elf]

Total newbie question:

All of the advice I've seen about camping in bear country has suggested the 100m triangle for optimum safety (cook, hang, and sleep in 3 different places 100m apart from each other). However, a lot of the photos I see from AT shelters shows cook stoves and meals set up at the shelter. Does anyone think this promotes bear encounters at shelters? Or do you think bears will check out shelters either way since humans = food?

I recently checked out trail updates on the ATC website and it seemed like a lot of them involved nuisance bears at various shelters. Then today, I saw a YouTube video where a group of hikers placed their food bags on top of the shelter as there was no ideal hang location and no bear cables. While the story was anecdotal and I got a good laugh out of it, I wondered why the hikers were all surprised to wake up and find a bear trying to climb the shelter.

I'm just curious what people's opinions are of this.

Welcome to whiteblaze!

There is a lot of advice available about proper procedures when camping in bear country (some of which is reputable and some of which is not.) I don't claim to be an expert but there are a few things I can tell you:

First off the only bear species on the east coast and on the Appalachian Trail is the American Black bear, much of the advice you find about bears is actually advice about hiking in grizzly bear country, and they just lump black bears in with them, for better or worse. The two species behave very differently.

Black bears are normally afraid of humans unless they have been conditioned to associate humans with food, and even then they are almost always a nuisance and not a threat.

The majority of A.T. hikers do a piss poor job of safe cooking and food storage and I feel fairly confident that I can state this as fact without anyone objecting.

When it comes to being near shelters it's safe to assume that someone already cooked inside the shelter itself, probably recently. Additionally many, many hikers either store their food inside shelters at night or do such a terrible job setting up a bear bag for their food that they are just asking for problems. So don't trust that your "best practices" are going to ensure that a bear won't just wander into camp out of habit.

If you want to get serious about safely storing your food, google the "PCT method" of bear bagging and learn to hang it properly, making sure it's high enough off the ground, far enough from the trunk of a tree and hanging from a limb that is not strong enough to support a bear's weight.

Here is just one of many videos on youtube demonstrating the technique:





If you want to learn about black bears and their temperment here is a great sight to read through: http://www.bear.org/website/

Bonus fun fact (just because I like posting it) Mother Black Bears DO NOT violently defend their cubs, that is a Grizzly bear trait. Black bears are excellent climbers and when threatened the cubs quickly scurry up the closest tree to safety while the mother usually puts on a show or runs away. Reference link

[HooKooDooKu]

Whe majority of A.T. hikers do a piss poor job of safe cooking and food storage and I feel fairly confident that I can state this as fact without anyone objecting.

Yea, agreed (and thanks for posting some generally great information on the black bears).

I know the shelters in the GSMNP warn about keeping food away from the sleeping areas... but you'll still see people sitting on the sleeping platforms eating (and spilling) there dinner.

[tdoczi]

Total newbie question:

All of the advice I've seen about camping in bear country has suggested the 100m triangle for optimum safety (cook, hang, and sleep in 3 different places 100m apart from each other).

that's GRIZZLY bear country procedure, not followed at all on the AT and with so many people not doing that you doing it yourself probably wouldn't keep you safe.

[garlic08]

A lot of people, me included, are pretty cavalier about black bears. Some even sleep with their food as a pillow. Black bears usually run away, are non-predatory, and all they care about is a little free food. There's no comparison between them and grizzlies, right? But I did a little reading about bear attacks in the continental US, and discovered that most fatalities have been by black bears in the East. Of course, much of that is due to the higher population of both species. And there are stories like post #5 above--yikes. That toned down my cavalier attitude a bit, and I exercised standard Western precautions (PCT method) on the AT. I kept my shelter-area nights to a minimum.

[Beccah]

Thanks for the info! All of the camping I've done has been east of the Mississippi, so black bears are the only type of bears I'm familiar with. So far, the only experiences I've had with them is when they walk past my tent on the way to another campsite where someone hasn't kept a clean site. I'm familiar with the PCT method and I've hung bags before (largely to avoid racoons and rodents, which in my area are far worse offenders than the bears). I'm curious what people do when they find themselves in an area where there isn't a tree with a suitable branch. The video I mentioned in my first post about the campers who put their food on the roof of the shelter did so because they couldn't find a place to hang a bag and there were no cables.

I guess what it boils down to is that I like to think AT hikers, whether thru or not, are people who care about the outdoors and have a concern about conservation. I think the best practices of keeping a clean camp and watching where you eat/cook and store food isn't so much about making sure you don't have a bear encounter as it is about trying to keep the bear from having a human encounter. So, I guess it just makes me scratch my head to see photos of hikers who don't keep a clean camp. I don't know if I'm really explaining myself well...

[hikerboy57]

you're explaining yourself just fine, and many here will agree. but the shelters will attract critters no matter what. its not just at hikers using them and people will eat at them.so the best you can do is set a good example.

[Coffee]

I think the best practices of keeping a clean camp and watching where you eat/cook and store food isn't so much about making sure you don't have a bear encounter as it is about trying to keep the bear from having a human encounter.

That's always been my point of view as well. Human-Black Bear encounters are almost always much worse for the bear than humans.

[Nak]

what worked best for my evening routine was to cook, eat and brush teeth at the shelter. Much more comfortable with a table and a place to sit. Then hike up the trail for how ever long you want and pitch camp. However, if your set on staying at the shelters...good luck.

[ezdoesit]

what worked best for my evening routine was to cook, eat and brush teeth at the shelter. Much more comfortable with a table and a place to sit. Then hike up the trail for how ever long you want and pitch camp. However, if your set on staying at the shelters...good luck.

+1 what Nak said I do the same.

[Blissful]

The scout troop around Byrd's Nest shelter on Old Rag weren't thu hikers, just overnighters, yet they did not consider themselves lucky to see the two bears rip through several of their tents. We were camped a tenth of a mile away and were only spared because we tended a medium sized fire all night. We frequently saw the two bears circling our camp throughout the night. The memory of the screams of the scouts helped keep us awake. Some park bears will come right into camp.l

They should not have been there in the first place. No camping allowed in the vicinity of these shelter areas on Old rag. You must be 1/4 mile away.

[lemon b]

I try and keep a clean camp. In my experience bears are more a function of whose been in a specific area before and if they left food in the open.

[RedBeerd]

this guy visited us during our back country season:
http://www.thebearwhisperer.com/

and i remember him saying black bears are the lazy stoners of the bear world. you should be honored to see one and they are entirely harmless. they just want to eat, clearly.
its probably better just to avoid shelters and then you don't have to worry about it. i like to do the cooking at shelters and then take off a little ways away and tent. the best of both worlds.

we all had to take turns sleeping in front of the meat coolers in camp which is how its been done in the back country program since 1979. there has never been a problem. but one night a bear got into a nearby packers garbage and it came back like clockwork..people just need to use common sense.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Comment on eastern black bear attacks: Most fatal eastern attacks have been in eastern Canada, not US, and many have been rogue males that indeed hunted or stumbled upon their human victims. Only a couple attacks were in the U.S. Most recently one in NY State and one in GSMNP, both a number of years ago. Experts say that if a black bear ever does really attack you, don't roll up and play dead. Their behavior is different from Grizzlies. It is planning on eating you. Fight for your life.

Just some thoughts that run a bit counter to the "odor proof" bags and such concept: Black bears have a sense of smell reportedly 7 times better than those bloodhounds that can track you down days and miles away after you escape from the asylum , and 1000's of times better than ours. We and everything we touch and wear and carry positively reeks of our food to them. Our food is in and out of our pack, then we touch it, prepare it, and we unknowingly spread all these minute food particles and oils and odors on everything we have from clothing to gear to even the outside surface of our "odor proof" food bag - which now smells like food . . .

There is just no way that you and everything you carry don't smell like food (and human BO) to a bear that is even miles away. It's good that most bears associate human BO with trouble rather than an easy meal, or see humans as potential prey. Because finding humans would be no big challenge for them.

That all said, not sleeping with your food, and keeping as food odor free as possible is a pretty damn sensible policy. I especially don't eat in or near my sleeping bag if I can avoid it. Bears are the biggest, fastest, alpha predator in the eastern forest, and as with any "wild" animal, their behavior by definition is sometimes unpredictable. Why tempt fate?

[RED-DOG]

The Shelter's is about the only place you will see a bear on a thru-hike unless you are lucky enough to get a glimpes of ones back end while it's running through the woods, every once in a while you might get one walking across the trail but thats about it, I have had a few encounters with bears but all them was at or near Shelters, don't cook at shelters for obvious reasons, and alot of people do especially when it's cold. but on a rare occassion when i sleep in a shelter, I am more worried about the Mice than the Bears, those shelter mice can be down right viscious. But seriously the only place i have actually been worried about bears Was in the Rockies and farther west then i did the 100m apart as you described and had no Problems with bears but i did have a few encounters with Wolves but thats a different story.

[aficion]

They should not have been there in the first place. No camping allowed in the vicinity of these shelter areas on Old rag. You must be 1/4 mile away.

Back in 1972 you could camp anywhere on Old Rag that you pleased, and we did many times.