Rutland and "The Twelve Tribes" Hostel

[Lilred]

Let's just see it as any other hostel and leave it at that.

How can you say to see it as any other hostel, knowing how they treat their children?? I don't understand that kind of attitude. I would rather not put my pocketbook before my principles. Sure it's free and the food is free, but as another poster pointed out, sounds way too expensive to me. Now that I know what I know, you won't find me crossing their threshold.

[Icicle]

How can you say to see it as any other hostel, knowing how they treat their children??

Well as I live outside the USA - I had never heard of them until my husband mentioned that he was going to stay there. He sent me the link to their website and I read through some of there stuff....other than that, the reference to how they treat their children is only coming from you and this thread.

My husband did not mention anything about the way they treat their children and when I spoke to *someone* on the phone there when I called to speak to my husband - they were nothing but polite and went to find him straight away.

If you aren't comfortable staying there - then don't. Unless I experience otherwise - they were polite and nice on the phone and I am sure they are that way in person as well. I make up my own mind and don't let heresay interfere with my own decision about people.

[Israel]

Well as I live outside the USA - I had never heard of them until my husband mentioned that he was going to stay there. He sent me the link to their website and I read through some of there stuff....other than that, the reference to how they treat their children is only coming from you and this thread.

My husband did not mention anything about the way they treat their children and when I spoke to *someone* on the phone there when I called to speak to my husband - they were nothing but polite and went to find him straight away.

If you aren't comfortable staying there - then don't. Unless I experience otherwise - they were polite and nice on the phone and I am sure they are that way in person as well. I make up my own mind and don't let heresay interfere with my own decision about people.

Icicle, by all means form your own opinion on the matter based on information you are comfortable with. That is one of the great things about your life- you are free to make that decision on your own. If you lived in the community...the leadership would make that decision for you- make no mistake about that.

In regards to the children, you don't think they are dumb enough to do things in front of people they are trying to convince to join their community that they might find offensive do you? Go spend some time there and see what you see....give it about 3 months. Your head will be so messed up though you won't be able to think straight at that time but at least you will have your own experience.

Lastly, none of the statements made by me or exyathed are "heresay." Heresay is what you will hear on the trail...the opinion of someone who had extremely limited contact with them on a one night free stay. Heresay is not factual events based on a long term living with them and knowinng them on a personal level.

Again, anyone who stays there will most likely enjoy their visit. They can be very kind. The issue is not their kindness...the issue is their propensity and deep need for unprecidented control over those who are members there.

[bfitz]

Whether they beat their children or not, I'd be interested more to hear about the leaderships finances and holdings as well as what members are required to do as far as their own choices about where to work, go to school etc, and what they contribute to the group monetarily and labor-wise. Even presbyterians sometimes beat their kids. It seems to me that most religious groups-including the mainstream ones-have at least a few whacky elements even if they're not full blown whacko cults (like these guys seem to be). Having whacky beliefs isn't a reason to condemn them. I've had few personal experiences with them, but from the dead show parking lots where I first encountered them recruiting drugged out hippies, to the (then fledgeling) hostel experience (earlier described in this thread) to the rumors and stories I have heard from others (including ex-members, and its hard to imagine someone starting websites and recovery organisations just for kicks), they seem to fit the bill of a group to avoid. So far the only evidence to the contrary is the fact that they are polite to potential recruits, and well behaved in public.

[Jack Tarlin]

Whoa, Israel, I never "endorsed" them. All I was saying is that the conversation seemed to be getting a bit heated and perhaps needed to be toned down a bit. I was commenting based on what I've heard from several dozen hikers who either met these folks or who spent time with them (admittedly not a lot of time), and the comments I got from Northbounders were all positive.

You obviously seem to be unusually well informed about this, so of course I'll defer to you. I make a habit of limiting my comments about folks or places I haven't visited personally, and I certainly don't "endorse" places unless I have first-hand knowledge of the people and places I'm encouraging people to visit.

In this particular matter, I encourage people to get as much information as they can, to pay closer attention to folks who ARE personally knowledgable, and to then make wise and informed decisions on where you want to spend your time.

[Rain Man]

... just visit the "Rick A. Ross Institute of New Jersey For The Study of Destructive Cults, Controversial Groups, and Movements" web site at

http://www.rickross.com

Seems ANYBODY not in the fundamentalist mainstream is "destructive" and "controversial" and generally a spawn of Satan, or at least gets painted with the same broad brush.

I'm already starting to LIKE the Twelve Tribes, if RARI is an enemy.

My daughter Grass stayed with them on her way through VT last year, and she liked them so much that she and I stopped off and visited with them on the drive back to Tennessee. Out of the mainstream of American consumerism, conspicuous consumption, faux religious orthodox fundamentalism, and the like? You betcha. Thank God for that.

I'd say their kids have as much chance of choosing a religion as small town Southern Baptist (or you fill in another fundamentalist denomination) kids do. Religious brain-washing is religious brain-washing. Being a 20-year-old cult or a 2,000-year-old cult (a thousand years with the Lord is as a day) if the same if it practices thought control. Many of the mainstream denominations are just as bad in my book.

Rain Man

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[bfitz]

I'd say their kids have as much chance of choosing a religion as small town Southern Baptist (or you fill in another fundamentalist denomination) kids do. Religious brain-washing is religious brain-washing. Being a 20-year-old cult or a 2,000-year-old cult (a thousand years with the Lord is as a day) if the same if it practices thought control. Many of the mainstream denominations are just as bad in my book.

I'm already starting to LIKE the Twelve Tribes, if RARI is an enemy

So you like them because they're just as bad as many main stream religions? Or is it that you'd prefer anything to "mainstream American" culture?
Just curious, would you like your daughter to become a member? Is she considering it? Did they try to separate her from any other people she may have been with, or was she already travelling alone? Religions always make me a little leery too, but especially ones with "Inner Circles". I'm not saying, I'm just saying...Religion to me is like relatives...You get what you get. Going out looking for a wierd cult to join is like asking for thanksgiving at mom's to go badly, but then I [was raised] catholic. I guess it still boils down to hike your own life, but there's definitely a weird vibe from the 12 tribes...

[Lilred]

... just visit the "Rick A. Ross Institute of New Jersey For The Study of Destructive Cults, Controversial Groups, and Movements" web site at

http://www.rickross.com

Seems ANYBODY not in the fundamentalist mainstream is "destructive" and "controversial" and generally a spawn of Satan, or at least gets painted with the same broad brush.

I'm already starting to LIKE the Twelve Tribes, if RARI is an enemy.

My daughter Grass stayed with them on her way through VT last year, and she liked them so much that she and I stopped off and visited with them on the drive back to Tennessee. Out of the mainstream of American consumerism, conspicuous consumption, faux religious orthodox fundamentalism, and the like? You betcha. Thank God for that.

I'd say their kids have as much chance of choosing a religion as small town Southern Baptist (or you fill in another fundamentalist denomination) kids do. Religious brain-washing is religious brain-washing. Being a 20-year-old cult or a 2,000-year-old cult (a thousand years with the Lord is as a day) if the same if it practices thought control. Many of the mainstream denominations are just as bad in my book.

Rain Man

.

I can't BELIEVE you said these things. Do I really know you? Have you read anything about this group? Have you done any research at all? Take a look at some of the news articles I've found about these guys and tell me you would feel comfortable with Grass joining up with them and having your grandchildren raised there. READ

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/cgi-...s=View+Records



http://www.neirr.org/mcconclu.html

http://www.neirr.org/mcquotes.html

http://twelvetribes-ex.org/articleshow.php?ID=5


These are just a few of the articles I came up with after a 5 minute search. There are other links on these sites you can click on if you really want to be informed.

Oh, and I found only one website, other than the one you showed, that was favorable towards this group. Notice the website you chose prides themselves on religious tolerance. I guess it would hardly surprise anyone that the one website I found was their own website.

[Lilred]

I can't BELIEVE you said these things. Do I really know you? Have you read anything about this group? Have you done any research at all? Take a look at some of the news articles I've found about these guys and tell me you would feel comfortable with Grass joining up with them and having your grandchildren raised there. READ

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/cgi-...s=View+Records



http://www.neirr.org/mcconclu.html

http://www.neirr.org/mcquotes.html

http://twelvetribes-ex.org/articleshow.php?ID=5


These are just a few of the articles I came up with after a 5 minute search. There are other links on these sites you can click on if you really want to be informed.

Oh, and I found only one website, other than the one you showed, that was favorable towards this group. Notice the website you chose prides themselves on religious tolerance. I guess it would hardly surprise anyone that the one website I found was their own website.

Oh wait, that wasnt' the website you listed. I've looked at so many I got confoooosed. The only other website that was favorable was one that professed religious tolerance.

[Rain Man]

I can't BELIEVE you said these things. Do I really know you? Have you read anything about this group? Have you done any research at all? Take a look at some of the news articles I've found ...

Hello Mary! Well, I think when you refer to the links you provided as "news articles," you answer my question about whether you have done research.

Yes, there are far too many hate-filled web sites willing to slander anyone not like themselves. The Bible says God is Love. These web sites are far, far from Love. IMHO.

Kinda the exact same problem Christ Jesus ran into, in fact. He's a "cult leader" I happen to admire and respect. But I didn't form that opinion by listening only to the hate-filled Pharisees and Sadducees.

Provide me with some real news articles from bona fide sources without axes to grind, and then we'll have something to discuss. Until then, I give these self-pious cult bashers the credit I think they deserve. NONE.

Now you know some tidbit more about me! I have a sense of fair play.

RainMan

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[justusryans]

I'd say their kids have as much chance of choosing a religion as small town Southern Baptist (or you fill in another fundamentalist denomination) kids do. Religious brain-washing is religious brain-washing. Being a 20-year-old cult or a 2,000-year-old cult (a thousand years with the Lord is as a day) if the same if it practices thought control. Many of the mainstream denominations are just as bad in my book.

I lived in Vermont for 20 years, while I was there the Twelve Tribes were constantly being investigated for child abuse, child labor, kidnapping , unsafe medical practices, ie not immunising children. Many ex cult members have come forward and testified about the abuse that goes on within the cult. The leader of the cult owns mansions around the world while his followers live in very basic housing. He claims to have a personal pipeline to God. He preaches intolerance, homophobia,and racism.

Any religion that trys to control what you think makes me nervous. The power to think for yourself is the greatest gift God gave us. Fundamentalists of ANY religion, Muslim, Hebrew, Christianity, ect.. make me nervous. They are so sure of their own rightousness that they don't have room in their tiny little minds for any thoughts other than what they are told to think.

The head of a church who lives in such contrast to his followers is a warning sign. This is not just limited to cults, any religious leader that lives like that is not following Christ. I understand ministers need to support their families. When I see a church leader driving a $80,000 vehicle I question whether his motivation is to teaching Christ's message or lining his pockets at the churches expense. I feel this money should be used to help the poor and disadvantaged, to help the elderly, to sponser youth groups, ect...

I live in the Bible Belt. Most of my neighbor are Baptist, these people are the salt of the earth. They love their families, their children, their neighbors. They go out of their way to help others out. They're ministers drive 10 year old pick-ups and sedans.
Intolerance comes cloaked in all religions, not just Baptist.

[Lilred]

Hello Mary! Well, I think when you refer to the links you provided as "news articles," you answer my question about whether you have done research.

Rain Man,
The very first link I have in my post leads you to, and quotes articles found in the New York Post, The Boston Herald, The Associated Press, MSNBC, Excite/Courier (England), The Guardian (Australia), and The New York Times. These aren't reputable "news articles" in your mind? Did you even read any of the links I posted or did you just read the URL address.

Not to mention the testimonials found on this thread. Or do you think these folks are lying too.

Perhaps your sense of fair play is clouded by your wonderful experience with these people.

[Icicle]

Excite/Courier (England), The Guardian (Australia),

I live in England and Excite/Courier is not a newspaper that I have ever heard of...

As far as the Guardian...if you want to read a more hate filled anti-everything newspaper - you won't find it! The Guardian likes to spew it's hatred (funny enough normally aimed at all things American) and pass it off as *news*.

So since you found your sources from these *reputable* sources...I am inclined to disregard your whole arguement.

Just because it's in print - does not make it truth....

[Israel]

Rainman and Icicle,
By all means you are 100% entitled to your opinion. Again- that is one of the freedoms you have by not living with this group. You presuppose that the ones who offer some less than steller information about this group "have an axe to grind." Judge for yourself if I sound bitter or if those who have dealt with years of devestation are making up their experiences or not. As previously stated, when you first meet them you will find them to be the best people you have ever met. When you visit with them and the evening hour rolls around..ask the member who is hanigng out with you to go on a spontaneous walk around town without asking anyone and see what happens. Ask them about the person who couldn't make up their mind to live there or not, decided to go climb mount washington and then suddenly "died" (story personally relayed to be many times to convince me not to leave).

I could go on but it seems your minds are made up and I am absolutely fine with that. Our lives are formed by our past, present, and future experiences. Maybe joing the TT is in the deck of cards for you. Best of luck to you. As for me, I firmly believe that God can only truly operate and dwell when our hearts are freely open to him and we do not live in fear of his killing us if we alter our address. I do not believe God called us to subjegate our personal decision making process to our "covering" for every little thing. And yes, I don't believe God cares whether we use more than 3 pieces of toilet paper per session (talk about micro-management of the leadership!). And yes, I believe it is a God given right for parents to name their own children whatever they want without being told/strongly suggested by others what the name should be, and I also believe that a man and woman should be able to spend time directly with their children instead of working from dawn until after dark day in and day out. It all boils down to the control of the leadership. The general member is not involved with those decisions but they are certainly subjected to them. Their freedom is an extremely controlled freedom. Ask one of the members to go hike with you one on one for 3 days and see if they can go. Ask how many people really write the teachings they abide by.
I have no axe to grind with them. I genuinily like how they live. I like how they dress. I like their order of worship (minus the compulsary aspect of it). They would say that my feeling it is compulsary shows that I don't have the right spirit though sinec they are big into saying if you question or disagree with them you are demon possessed and from evil intent. I live a simple life outside the community relatively free of commercialism. If they ever loose their unhealthy and unglodly need to control I will most likely be their the next day. Note that it took me months and months to really recognize the control that goes on there. Subsequent to leaving there I spent a lot of time researching other groups and the techniques of control that I experienced while living there. At the end of that I found that they are one of the most comprehensive users of thought, behavior, emotional, and phyiscal control of any group out there.
If you want to know what it is really like to be in the TT, you need to talk with them and you need to talk to folks that have lived there- and not just one person who has lived there, but as many as you can meet. I have spent time with people who were born and raised there, time with people who were there from day #1 in Chattanooga, time with people who were there briefly,etc. Most of them are some of the most genuine people you will ever meet. Some maybe do have an axe to grind but who can fault them...they gave years and years of their life, their blood, sweat, and tears, only to leave there with nothing but a hurting heart, a very confused mind, and being told by all their best friends who supposedly "loved" them that they were going to hell. I don't know about you but if i truly love a friend of mine he could rob me blind, kick me in the teeth, and I would still tell him and show them that I love them. As best as I am able, my love for others is not contingent. I can personally tell you that the people who knew be there and treated me so kind and with such love...once they learned i decided to leave to sort things out...those same people literally came to me and told me i was evil and without a shadow of a doubt going to hell and that I had better watch my step b/c God would kill me. Unfortunately, that is an absolute fact. Please tell me how that is a defensable event and the hallmark of a great and kind people!

At any rate, this discussion could go on and on. If you want to believe in them then more power to you. I have no doubt their hostel is cool, hip, comfortable, and enjoyable...most of their public spaces are somewhat unlike most the places you will go. For some people it will be their first exposure to non-materialism, some kind of faith in God (albiet mixed in with a bunch of toalitarian control), and simple living. These, minus the totalitarian control, are good things. I agree 100% with them up until you throw in the complete loss of free will and inhumane totalitarianism.

[justusryans]

Too many Americans fought and died for our freedom for me to arbitrarily give up those freedoms to join a freaking cult. How retarded can you be. I guess this is Darwins theory of natural selection in action! dumbasses!

[Icicle]

I could go on but it seems your minds are made up and I am absolutely fine with that.

Well that's where you are mistaken. I have never had an opinion other than to say that they were friendly on the phone with me and that my husband enjoyed staying there. Any other issues I wouldn't make up my mind unless I had personally researched them.

The only reason I bothered to post here again was to show that someone quoting the Guardian newspaper and another paper that does not actually exsist in this country has a faulty arguement and source.

Too many American servicemembers fought and died

Gentle reminder that it's not only American service members dying for whatever arguement that you are trying to defend.

[bogey]

Well that's where you are mistaken. I have never had an opinion other than to say that they were friendly on the phone with me and that my husband enjoyed staying there. Any other issues I wouldn't make up my mind unless I had personally researched them.

The only reason I bothered to post here again was to show that someone quoting the Guardian newspaper and another paper that does not actually exsist in this country has a faulty arguement and source.

Gentle reminder that it's not only American service members dying for whatever arguement that you are trying to defend.

Icicle, that's a mighty big OOPS from our side of the pond. I for one am not familiar with all the legitimate "news" publications my own country, not to mention those in your country, so when I see all the references and quotes, I MIGHT be inclined to believe what I read.

Having chosen a lousy reference doesn't negate the validity of Israel's statements and conviction, but it does risk the believability of the argument. We just have to try to be more aware and responsible in our reporting, or everyone will assume that the whole story is a lie, right?

re your Gentle reminder that it's not only American service members dying for whatever arguement that you are trying to defend..[/QUOTE]Amen to that! We're praying for ALL our servicepeople.

and are your countrymen as up in arms and vocal as ol' what'shername here?

regards,
bernie

[Icicle]

and are your countrymen as up in arms and vocal as ol' what'shername here?

I am American.

No people here are not happy about the world situation at the moment especially since the terrorist bombings in London a month ago.

As far as vocal - American bashing is a national sport here.

[Tha Wookie]

Having met dozens of folks in the past few weeks that met these guys in Rutland, and who, WITHOUT EXCEPTION spoke well of them and of their knindness to hikers, I suggest that some of you try and keep an open mind about this, and acknowledge that there are always two sides to every story and dispute.

VERY wise words from Jack

[Lilred]

I live in England and Excite/Courier is not a newspaper that I have ever heard of...

As far as the Guardian...if you want to read a more hate filled anti-everything newspaper - you won't find it! The Guardian likes to spew it's hatred (funny enough normally aimed at all things American) and pass it off as *news*.

So since you found your sources from these *reputable* sources...I am inclined to disregard your whole arguement.

Just because it's in print - does not make it truth....

\the NY times, NY Post and MSNBC are very reputable news agencies in the USA. So is the Boston Herald as far as I know. The foreign papers I had also never heard of, just listed them as sources being quoted. Since I found those two listed along with these others does not negate my whole arguement.