Ways to Improve Hanover NH

[rickb]

Here is another thought.

Hikers sometimes have blinders on. With all the time they spend in town on contemporary hikes you would think they might see something of the local color and culture.

In some places that might be a rib joint.

In Williamstown, it might be a walk through the Clark Institute. That place is amazing even if you didn't grow up next to a cornfield.

Now Hanover has more than a few hidden gems.

Those wanting to create something of a Hanover experience for hikers might simply extend a welcoming hand. Be it to see some art, and athletic event, a free harpsichord recital or whatever. Plenty of ways to get the word out.

Just my $.02

[Jack Tarlin]

Rick has made a good point. Hikers passing thru town would do well to stop by the Collis Student Center (on the town green next to the Outing Club building). There is a calendar of daily events posted there for anyone to check out, and there are all sorts of events taking place every day, all open to the public, and many of them free or at minimal cost. There's also an information desk manned by friendly people who'll be glad to answer your questions, give you directions, etc.

[yaduck9]

Originally Posted by The Weasel

Jack:

You need to think a little. If you want suggestions and comments, be a conduit. Argue elsewhere. If you want to argue, don't invite comments.

First, I haven' suggested a "public bathhouse." There are public restroom buildings in a lot of the towns along the AT, usually in a city park. Damascus has one, for instance, in the town park. Installing an outside shower head and a push-button water button isn't a "bath house." Having a stall wall and door that covers modesty areas is minor. Just as the rest room is closed at night in most places. the water would go off there, too. Those areas would need no more patrolling than they now receive.

Second, $100 is a valid number. Anyone staying at a motel is going to pay most of $50 for one night. Three meals for one day is going to be, even at the most modest of places in Hanover, $25. Resupply is going to be most of $25 as well. If someone takes in a flick and has a few more beers, that's another $25. You've mentioned the cost of motels in Hanover too, Jack. So don't sound so hostile.

Lastly, many towns have created pavillions and wash areas, lockers and shower areas, as part of homeless programs, whether in Wisconsin, California or the New England States. If Hanover hasn't, it will, soon, as the problem increases. Those facilities are not restricted. So while they don't need to happen for AT people, they are happening anyhow. There is no reason why hikers cannot be represented in the process of considering how to make such facilities useful to more people.

Jack, you can have opinions too. But perhaps you might let your civic contact decide which ideas are good and which are less useful. That, or perhaps you should get an official position, which I know you would be qualified for. Otherwise, let people provide ideas in good faith and be a little less confrontational.

TW

Give it up WEASEL, there is a hidden agenda being pushed; A friend of a friend is working toward an entrepreneurial solution. The fix is being put in place. You and i are just along for the ride. Enjoy the scenery.......

[Mango]

Jack, you've challenged us to name someplace on the AT with free showers at public expense. The state of Maryland provides same at Dalhgren Campground, or at least they did in '06. Also, you shouldn't be so quick to discount Weasel's estimate of money spent by hikers during an extra night in town. Not all hikers are almost broke, some have enough $ and some have credit cards. Staying in town another night means at least one or two meals, maybe a postcard to two, some ice cream, a couple of pizzas and a beer (before breakfast), a movie, a drug store trip, a gear repair, a haircut, etc. Not everybody buys all these things, but enough would that the cumulative effect would be significant. Several posters used to do economic impact studies in previous lives, and Weasel's guesstimate is not way out of line. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to make suggestions; let the local officials decide which are reasonable and which are goofy.

[Lone Wolf]

Originally Posted by Mango

Jack, you've challenged us to name someplace on the AT with free showers at public expense. The state of Maryland provides same at Dalhgren Campground, or at least they did in '06. Also, you shouldn't be so quick to discount Weasel's estimate of money spent by hikers during an extra night in town. Not all hikers are almost broke, some have enough $ and some have credit cards. Staying in town another night means at least one or two meals, maybe a postcard to two, some ice cream, a couple of pizzas and a beer (before breakfast), a movie, a drug store trip, a gear repair, a haircut, etc. Not everybody buys all these things, but enough would that the cumulative effect would be significant. Several posters used to do economic impact studies in previous lives, and Weasel's guesstimate is not way out of line. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to make suggestions; let the local officials decide which are reasonable and which are goofy.

hikers are only there for 2 months a year. what they spend means nothing compared to what the student's mommy and daddy does. hikers money is nothing. bottom line

[Mango]

That's not what I heard at MRO or the Vol Fire Dept chicken dinner. All generalizations are false, including this one.

[Jack Tarlin]

Mango:

I have never questioned whether or not there were showers on the Trail put there at "public expense". Your Maryland example is one such case. There are also showers at Fontana Dam (free) and in Shenandoah National Park (a nominal fee). There are any number of other public showers at various State Parks. Please note that these facilities were placed (and are presumably maintained) by State or Federal entities, and not individual towns.

What I said was that I knew of no community (i.e. no Trail town) that had taken this expense upon itself. If there is a Trail town that has erected free public showers on or near the A.T., I'm unaware of it, tho the Vernon Fire/Resuce service offered this for awhile; I don't know if they still do.

But the Hanover case is quite different, as the public showers people seem to expect would esentially be utilized only by hikers. As has been pointed out (several times now), the folks who live here neither need nor would use such things. They live here quite comfortably, Mango, most of them in houses that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. These dwellings all have their own plumbing included. Or they live in apartments or college residences. In short, and I don't know how many times it needs to be said, there isn't a pressing need for a public bathhouse in Hanover NH. It would inevitably be used for hikers only. And the town is not about to pay for it. Not to build it, not to insure it, not to police it, and not to clean it. If a private business wants to put in such a facility, and maintain it at a nominal fee to users, well I think that's great.

But I do not expect the town to do so. The communities up and down the Trail, regardless of their size or wealth, do not as a rule have such facilities, and I cannot for the life of me see why people expect Hanover to offer this quite singular amenity.

I trust this answers Mango's question.

I further trust that I'll have to repeat this again within the hour for someone else.

[Jack Tarlin]

Mango:

I never questioned Weasel's statement that folks who spend an extra day here or who zero out here will spend money. Of course they will.

What I questioned was whether or not people who need to rely on a public bath-house have that much extra money to spend, and no, I don't think they do.

One can share a motel room here (spilt several ways) for less than 35.00 to 40.00 dollars.

Hikers that can't afford to do that are sleeping by the soccer field and I very much doubt these folks are spending $100.00 a day or anything like it.

I encountered dozens of hikers in town this year.

Here's a typical "extra" zero day for someone who has elected to extend their time in Hanover and a list of probable expenses. And remember, this is the typical spending of someone who can't afford to even share a room, much less get their own.

*Wake up in the woods by the Soccer Field
*Go into nearby Food Co-Op supermarket; use toilet, wash face.
*Buy juice and a muffin as a full breakfast at Lou's ($12.00-17.00) isn't in the budget.
*Walk into town, browse the bookstore, pick up a bus schedule for later
*Go to Howe Public Library; check E-Mail, update journal
*Get free slice of hiker pizza at Ramunto's next to the library
*Take bus tonearby West Lebanon. Browse EMS and L.L. Bean Buy some Aquamira.
*Go up to Wal-Mart. Purchase batteries and a one dollar winter hat.
*Get lunch at Burger KIng.
*Back to Hanover. Run into friends on Main St., go with them for coffee at Cowboy Cafe
*Go up to Outing Club building, check E-Mail again
*Meet friends at EBA's for AYCA dinner special.
*Go with them to Five Olde and have three two-buck PBR's. Some of them are going to a
movie but you can't really afford it.
*Walk back to Soccer Field with friends; stop at Stinson's and split a 12 pack with friends.
*Lights out

Well there's a full day in town, and you know what......you didn't spend 100 bucks or anywhere near it, and some of the money you spent wasn't even spent in Hanover.

Because this is what it's like when you're on a budget.......you simply can't spend money on everything you see.

My point, Mango, is that if you and your friends can afford a $100.00 a night motel room, then you probably will have some discretionary money to spend on your day off (tho I still think $100.00 is high for a lot of folks).

But if you aren't on a budget (i.e. you're the kind of person who has to tent when in town due to budgetary restrictions) then you're not gonna spend anywhere near a hundred dollars, especially if you've already been in town awhile.

Are there some hikers who'll spend quite a bit of money when here in Hanover? Of
course they are. And that's great. But people that need to rely on a public bathing facility simply aren't going to be spending money freely; if they had it to spend, they wouldn't be sleeping by a soccer field.

So sorry, I don't agree with Weasel's estimate as regards the people who'd be patronizing a publicly funded shower. We had a ton of folks stay out at our place this summer and damned few of them spent a hundred dollars on their second or third days in town. They simply weren't budgeted for it even without having to pay for lodging.

[h. hastings]

Mr. Tarlin,

New Glarus has not erected either a lodging or washing facility for transients. You ask why not? Simply put, we have no transient population moving through town as do communities along the AT, so why would the idea ever be considered?

I don't expect the town of Hanover to provide any services for hikers. As Lone Wolf has pointed out the revenue generated by hikers is probably a fraction of that generated by Dartmouth and its students. The original intent of this thread though was to solicite ideas that would make the Hanover experience a more positive one for hikers. Suggestions have been provided some of which you felt were unworkable. If you only wanted ideas that you thought would be successful this process might have been expedited if you had provided a list of what those were at the outset.

I applaud your willingness to act as a representative and conduit of information for the AT hiking community. Kudos to the Hanover town government and business community for initiating the discussion. Whatever decisions and changes are made I hope the hiking community shows its appreciation as well.

[yaduck9]

Have to take a break; my eyes are worn out from reading.....

[neighbor dave]

i used the shower that was on the trail, well actually used two of them, one was at that shelter where you can order pizza, and the other one was near there, on the left side of the trail near a field if memory serves me correctly, both public free showers.

[neighbor dave]

while neither are "right in town" i showered for free in two places directly on the A.T.
mile # 523.2 nobo partnership shelter

mile # 1019.8 nobo gathland state park

while nice, i could've done without.
just showing examples here and not advocating that hanover "must" follow this lead.

i think in the hanover case, using exsisting shower facilities, (where ever they may be or whomever is running them) might be a good option.

[Jack Tarlin]

Just wanted to let you know that I'm meeting with one of the town officials tomorrow and will give him a print copy of this whole thread.

Thank you for your contributions to this discussion, and I'll certainly let you know what, if anything, comes out of all this.

And the accusation that I'm not interested in hearing from other people on this subject, or that I'm not planning on sharing your ideas with others is also not true. After all, please read the first post on this thread: If I wasn't interested in getting other ideas and suggestions to bring to this upcoming meeting, then why on earth did I start the thread in the first place? From the outset of this discussion, I've wanted to get ideas and suggestions from other hikers, and thanks again to those who made useful contributions here.

[The Weasel]

It will be interesting to hear the response from your contact, not only for what (s)he says about the reaction for Hanover, but how it might serve as the basis for suggestions for other towns. I hope you'll give us all a report and continue to update as this progresses through the town's consideration.

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

Of course I will, Weasel.

The most important thing, as far as I'm concerned will be a shower facility somewhere, and if NOTHING else is accomplished, this is enough. The lodging thing is tough one. As has been explained above, I don't see a hostel opening near downtown anytime soon, and town and police officials want to keep the present campsite area north of town low key, i.e. there isn't going to be any kind of facility/pavillion there anytime soon. Incidentally, Dartmouth College is about to announce a new round of layoffs tomorrow, meaning dozens of good local people are about to lose their jobs. Among other things, the very idea of the college spending money on transient visitors (i.e. hikers) on such things as a bathroom, lockers, etc. just isn't realistic right now and won't be for awhile.

I wish things were different here, like I wish there was good cheap lodging. I wish there was a laundromat; I wish there was a full-service outfitter still in town. I wish there was a supermarket where normal people could realistically shop. On the other hand, the outdoor shops in town are friendly and helpful and have most of what hikers need. There are places to do laundry and to share a motel room not far from town. There's a wonderful free bus service that more folks should take advantage of. It'll take you in a few minutes to West lebanon, where one can find everything that is missing here.

And lastly, despite a few strident remarks from a comparative handful of people, Hanover
is indeed a friendly place, and it's ful of people who, over the years, are happy to extend a
welcoming hand to visiting hikers. After all, manyof the folks who live here ARE hikers.

Anyway, I'm about to copy this whole thread right now so I'll have a copy tomorrow, and I hope it proves interesting to the town, Colllege, and business people who I'll be meeting in the days to come.

Thanks again to everyone who helped out here, and if anything concrete comes out of these meetings with townspeople, I'll sure let you know.

[vthiker]

I'm headed out tomorrow afternoon to re-paint the blazes from Elm St. in Norwich to the Co-op gas station in Hanover. Hopefully that should help.

jason

[Jack Tarlin]

Very cool. If it's mid to late afternoon, drop by the Dirt Cowboy and have some coffee.

I'll be the bespectacled large gent in black reading a newspaper.

In any case, thanks for everything you do.

See, this thread has already accomplished something!!

[Jack Tarlin]

Well, I just got back from meeting two great guys at the Cowboy Cafe and had a great talk.

*Some good news: There is real hope on the shower front, and it might, repeat MIGHT happen at the Food Co-op as one of the people on the committee has some good connections there. Lots of details to be worked out here.

*The idea of making the Trail better known to townspeople and other visitors was rell-received, the idea being that if more people realize they're on the famous Appalachian Trail, then they'll have a better appreciation for it, and a better understanding of who the
unkempt bearded people are. We discussed different things, such as signage, banners,
a bulletin board, etc. They also liked the idea of putting stuff in the pavement, tho obviously this would be a long process, i.e. getting permission from the town, submitting and approving designs, picking location, figuring out costs, etc. I'm going to get in touch with folks in Hot Springs and get more information on how they achieved success with
their sidewalk A.T. project. While we're on the subject, if anyone has some good photos of the Hot Springs sidewalk installations, please send them to this thread as folks want a better idea of what we're talking about here.

*They like the idea of an annual "Hiker Day" in town with a cookout, literature and information tables, etc. This would most likely happen in summertime at the height of
hiker season.

*A pavillion is not going to happen anytime soon, and in fact, the present campsite may
not continue either, tho we'll certainly work with town/law enforcement people to try and keep it open and available. Better co-operation from hikers wouldn't hurt either.

*The idea of working with the local bus company in order to get some better bus stops (like at the motels, etc.) was well received.

*While there may not be a big kiosk, the idea of some sort of sign or bulletin board was very well received, as it would help both hikers and passers-by. I suggested that such a sign first and foremost let people know they were actually ON the Trail; it'd have a map of the whole Trail with Hanover prominently highlighted; it'd show the mileage distances from both Springer and Katahdin; it would tell folks what the white blazes were for; and lastly, it'd encourage people seeking more information on the Trail to either visit the nearby Outing Club building or to contact the ATC in Harpers Ferry. All of this information could very easily be includied on a reasonably sized sign; all that remains is to get it approved and find the best location. Along these lines, the Trail might be moved to the other side of Main St. which i thinkis a great idea.

*It was agreed that better signage and blazing is needed in Hanover, especially near the
Food Co-Op and Gas Station at the north end of town, as right now, it's difficult for hikers
to see where the Trail actually goes, where one should cross busy Lebanon St., etc. This new blazing may well be done this week !

Anyway, all in all, a very productive first meeting, and we'll be getting together again before too long. I suggested that in addition to local hikers, we also make sure and get representatives from City Hall; the Dartmouth Outing Club; the Police Department; the Chamber of Commerce; and perhaps the local ATC rep as well.

Anyway, we're off to a good start here and I'll keep you guys informed of future developments and ideas. Oh, and this thread was duly noted and commented on; these guys are indeed aware of your comments and suggestions, so feel free to keep them coming. Thank you!!

[The Weasel]

Nice job, Dude.

TW

[chiefduffy]

Thanks Jack. Nice work.