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  1. #21
    Section Hiker 180 AT miles
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    well i for one appreciate the testing you do do. some people will try to sell their way of doing things and their gear but they dont back it up with facts or testing. you give us the details we need to make educated decisions for ourselves. thank you for your reviews they really help.
    "Do what you Love, Love what you do"

  2. #22
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    For those who are not aware of it, Ern - Sgt Rock - is recognized by no lesser authority than Backpacker Magazine as having home-designed and crafted stoves that are excellent. Am I right, Ernest?

    The Weasel.
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  3. #23
    First Sergeant SGT Rock's Avatar
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    I don't know if they recognized me. I sent in two during that alcohol stove cook off and never heard back. For all I know I did win, I rarely ever look at the magazine any more.

    Anyway, something I was thinking about was re-naming the stove. I originally called my stoves the V8 stove because I got the idea for AYCE's V8 stove, mine was just a little souped up. Now I don't use V8 cans and they bear no resemblance to the old V8 stove at all. Early Riser gave me an idea for a new name - the Ion Stove. since Nasa has built their Ion drive on the principle of efficiency and low output to achive good results, I think my stove is trying to get the same efficiency in alcohol stoves.

    Any comments?

    Another thing, this thread originally started with me asking ya'll how you measure your stove's performance. I'm still interested in that. Like I said, I'm looking for total econemy of weight and fuel consumption, but to some people that doesn't seem to matter. If someone would prefer an alcohol stove that burns like a tourch I can go for that next, or if someone prefers the absolute lightest base weight, I can also do that. But in the end, what is most practical for your style and preference?
    SGT Rock
    http://hikinghq.net

    My 2008 Trail Journal of the BMT/AT

    BMT Thru-Hikers' Guide
    -----------------------------------------

    NO SNIVELING

  4. #24
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    I specifically recall the results of the "stove-off" in Backpacker, with Sarge's stoves losing, but getting great reviews. Can someone confirm this for me? I don't have my old Backpacker's, but it was early this year, I think.

    The Weasel

    PS: Ern, If I'm right, you're even more famous, and you can even frame it!
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

  5. #25
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    I have different scales for measuring stove performance based on what kind of trip I am doing. To make life easier, I'll just talk about how I measure performance during mild conditions, at low elevations, and at low lattitudes. So, any trip on the AT during April to October. In this case, my prime objective for the stove is to boil water, usually on the order of 1 pint, in a reasonable amount of time, with a reasonable amount of fuel. What is reasonable? Reasonable time is usually around 6-8 minutes, enough time for me to do some chores, like setting up my tarp, getting gear sorted, etc. Reasonable amount of fuel means around 1-1.5 oz. This means a bottle of HEET
    will last me between 8 and 12 days, more than enough to reach a resupply point. In the end, I would trade off speed for fuel economy. I just don't seem to be able to build something like one of Sgt. Rock's stoves. Just mechanically disabled, I suppose.

    Weight, price, and convenience are factored in to performance. White gas stoves lose out on all these counts during conditions usually met on the AT during the traditional hiking season, although they are quick and hot. Butane style stoves can be light, but they cost money and there are those annoying cannisters to haul around. Annoying for me, at least.

  6. #26
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    09-17-2002
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    Default measuring performance of stoves

    I test to determine if it meets my objectives.
    1. is it easy to set up and use?
    2. Is it as light as pactical
    3. is it simple to construct?
    4. will it provide long useful service?
    5. will it help me fill my belly with a warm pot of food?
    I've found that the light weight homemade stoves pass these tests well and I generally hike with a v8 or pepsi stove with aluminum flashing windscreen/pot support useing a walmart grease pot and a blue foam cozy. It has proven to be so simple to set and use that I have found myself cooking three meals a day and making hot drinks etc. for between meal stops. Ihave not subjected this system to winter weather but april through september have worked flawlessly. I will test this winter and let you know how well it does the job.
    SEMPER PARATUS

  7. #27
    GA-ME 02 Kilted Hiker Trail Yeti's Avatar
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    As Sgt Rocks "official" long term field tester I got a couple of things to say. He sent me the "v-8 turbo" at Davenport Gap, TN. I started my thru-hike on March 10th,so I still had some pretty cold weather to try it out in. The only difference is it takes a little longer to prime, and you might have to use another capful of alcohol to get things going. Actually its more like 1/2 a cap. One thing I did do for when it was cold was this....
    I bought a little 1 oz plastic screw bottle and would fill it up w/alcohol if the temps were going to be real cold. I put this bottle in a zip lock and put it in my pocket during the day or at the foot of my bag at night. I never had a leak, or if I did the alcohol evaporated so fast that I didn't notice it. Anyway, what this does is keep the alcohol warm (from your body heat) so that it doesn't take as long to boil and vaporize.
    I use the top of my fuel bottle (empty coke bottle) as a measuring cup when filling my stove. 1 capful equals 1/4 of an ounce (about).
    when using Sgt rock's stove I used about 1 1/2 oz of alcohol a day.
    that includes cooking dinner, w/a hot drink for breakfast or after dinner. I was filling my fuel bottle about every 2 weeks (or sometimes longer in the summer) and even then I was never completely out of fuel.
    the stove lasted the entire hike and I still even have the original windscreen!!!
    so they do last and I was eating just as fast as the "hold-outs" who stayed w/white gas. However, by the end of the trail probably 90% of thru-hikers have switched to alcohol....why carry that extra weight?
    so there is my two cents...
    if anyone has any questions about Rock's stoves in "the field" I would be glad to answer them.
    life is good, WEAR A KILT!
    Trail Yeti

    sorry, but i like the smilies!!!

  8. #28
    Section Hiker 350 miles DebW's Avatar
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    Default Stoves for 2 or more

    I have both gasoline stoves (MSR G, MSR Dragonfly) and alcohol stoves (Trangia, Linguini Tuna Can). My problem is that I'm usually hiking with 1-4 other people so end up bringing the gasoline stove. On weekend family outings I may be cooking for 4-5 so clearly need the MSR. On longer section hikes of the AT, there are usually 2 of us and we like to cook together. Anyone had much experience cooking for 2 on alcohol stoves. I think boil times would be about 12-15 minutes for a quart of water. I do use a cozy.
    What is the trade-off in cooking time and fuel weight when cooking for 2? Would we save weight cooking separately on 2 alcohol stoves rather than one gasoline stove? How about with 3 people? If none of you have done this calculation yet, guess I can do it myself and report.
    Last edited by DebW; 03-15-2003 at 11:14.

  9. #29
    GA-ME 02 Kilted Hiker Trail Yeti's Avatar
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    Deb,
    I never tried to cook for two on my hike....my pot isn't big enough for that anyway. My girlfriend carried her own stove and pot and cooked her own stuff. However, Papa Smurf and Flame made their meals together and they cooked on an alcohol stove...they used a cat stove w/a simmer ring and a pot cozy. Then one would eat out of the pot and they also had a little plastic bowl for the other.
    I am sure there are others, I never got to meet them but I bet Jumpstart and Baloo did it.
    hope this helps.
    Yeti

  10. #30
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    Default cooking for 2

    last couple times out my hiking partner and i cooked for 2 on a pepsi stove wid no hitches. typically added 4 or 5 caps fuel to the pepsi burner and boiled 3 cup h2o wid 1 tablespoon powdermilk plus 1 tbs oliveoil and some lipton noodle entrees then added big foil pack of salmon, when boiling put in the pot cozy and ready to eat in 12 to 15 minutes. if you like them add 1/4 cup of dehydrated peeas and your on your way to some good trail food. for practical 2 person kit the walmart grease pot nests perfectly inside a generic 2 qt. aluminum pot wid wire bail and lid. stove wind screen/potsupport lighter and potgrip all fit inside. now wid that you can turn out 2 part meals or use one pot for hot drinks. Actually homade stoves are so lite and small each hiker can very easily have his/her own. You cook the pasta, I'll make the sauce works very well for us. good luck.
    SEMPER PARATUS

  11. #31
    First Sergeant SGT Rock's Avatar
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    Here is another question I can answer.

    The more water you put into a pot, the ammount of alcohol needed rises at a curve and not a straight line. Heat and cold are not opposites - heat is energy and cold is the absence of energy. Heat seeks the area of lower energy.

    1. The larger amount of water means there is more energy to transfer. The larger amount also typically has the same relative surface area of water to the flame as a smaller amount of water, so you get a relatively lower transfer. The principle is simmilar to why a block of ice will last longer than crushed ice of the same mass. There is more surface area for heat to transfer into the water in all those little pieces but not in in the one big piece.

    2. There is more pressure at the bottom of a larger pot of water. Boiling cannot happen until the heat overcomes this pressure. This part of the theory I don't have a solid grasp on yet because I haven't educated myself to it. But I trust that it is true.

    3. Alcohol stoves actually tend to take longer to reach boil with the same amount of water the more fuel you add. I have some theories on why, but suffice to say, it is true. You can look at all my stove tests on HikingHQ to see what I mean.

    So if lower relative surface are and higher pressure means your fuel requirements curve, you have two options.

    1. Cook in two pots simultaneously. When I take my kids camping we all have our own stoves. Making them is a family project we do together and everyone knows how to use them. Another advantage to this is it reduces the possibility of spreading bacteria. Since we all eat straight from our pots, the possibility of cross contamination is zero.

    2. Get a stove that is more efficient and still cook together. There is a stove that I have actually found to do a very good job boiling two pints of water while maintaining good fuel economy. The Brasslite duo is the one alcohol stove I've found that actually works more efficiently. Because it works on a cool self pressurization system, the more fuel you add improves performance. It is the most expensive of alcohol stoves.
    SGT Rock
    http://hikinghq.net

    My 2008 Trail Journal of the BMT/AT

    BMT Thru-Hikers' Guide
    -----------------------------------------

    NO SNIVELING

  12. #32

    Default

    This evening I put together one of Sgt Rock's Ion stoves - mainly I wanted something less of a torch than the Turbo V8 to go with a smaller pot I just got. The V8 was great for the old grease pot from Walmart but the new pot was smaller diameter and the spread of flame from the V8 was too wide. The Ion stove worked well for me with the smaller pot - new pot is about .8L Ti somewhat similar in size to the MSR Ti kettle.

    The assembly was not significantly different than the Turbo V8 but I had to guess what a "large paperclip" was in terms of size - my guess was one of the metal (chrome plated ?) paperclips in "standard" twice around form that is almost 2 inches long and not a butterfly paperclip which uses heavier gage wire and is closer to three inches long. Anyways the jets from the six holes were in good form and made good contact with the bottom of the new pot.

    I made the Ion stove with the internal hardware cloth pot stand - I am still not sure whether to stick with this or to go back to the combined windscreen and pot stand type that I normally use. I like the combined windscreen and pot stand form because it is very stable. On the other hand the internal hardware cloth pot stand is not bad for a smaller pot and it has the advantage of conducting heat down into the pool of alcohol helping to heat the fuel before burning. One thing that I am concerned with is that the hardware cloth I used was galvanized - I think there is some health risk involved with heating galvanized steel but I am not real sure as to how risky this is compaired with say the risk of using methanol for fuel vs using denatured alcohol as fuel.

  13. #33

    Default

    Getting back to the original post I have refrained from an answer up till now because my testing has been evolving.

    The testing to some degree has to be tailored to the desired outcome. Testing a blow torch is a bit different then testing for efficiency since the goal changes the data that you want to collect. You also end up restricting the test to the equipment that is availible.

    For the first stoves I built, I only did a subjective test as all I was concerned with was if the thing could boil water. I was also changing wind screen designs so any hard data would be useless.

    Now that I have a stable windscreen design and several working burners I test for both heat output and efficiency But I am reaching a point where I will have to get lab grade equipment and use much more strict procedures to get usefull results.

    current testing...

    timing - wrist watch rounded to nearest minute
    measuring - kitchen measures,tin 1c and 1/8 c filled to brim
    same windscreen and pot are used for all tests
    water temps are not measured, two standards are used
    boil - water noise in pot
    steam - water vapor escaping from pot (true boil?)

    and I also record the total burn time

    up to now I have been using only 2 cups of water under ideal conditions with water of unknown tempature but trail conditions are rarely ideal. I have been toying with the idea of useing 3 cups to give a margin for lesser conditions but since noone else has posted this way I couldnt validate the data against anyone elses research. (it is good to have someone check your work) I guess a stop watch and a thermometer are next along with stricter procedures.


    on the matter of minimal fuel to boil water the loss of efficiency occurs in several areas.

    as the fuel burns btus are lost heating the burner,the alcohol, the air used, the windscreen, the potstand , the ground underneath as well as the pot itself. Also there is a loss when the heat is transfered from air to pot and then again to water. Add to all of this the pot radiates heat as does the windscreen. With all these losses going on its a wonder the water doesnt turn to ice!

  14. #34

    Angry ROCK!!!!!

    I just realised one bit of differance between our numbers...

    You tested with 75 degree water (room temp) while I was useing 50 degree water from the tap.

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