View Full Version : Why the sensitivity?
Why is there so much sensitivity here on whiteblaze to posters who dare to criticize the actions of the trail clubs who are responsible for various sections of the Appalachian Trail? I have noticed that when we post something, usually in response to a question, that is critical to one of the State or Federal government entities like the NPS, USFS, State Parks etc. ( All are organizations that are responsible for, and set or influence policy or make rules for hiking the trail.) it will garner little emotional response. We can bad mouth the Park Service all we want and it will raise very few hackles. If however, we dare to question integrity, or criticize a trail club, even though they, like the government, are responsible for, and set or influence policy or rules for hiking the trail. It will quickly turn into a cat fight with anger, outrage, name calling etc? Why the sensitivity to one but not the other? It can be difficult to voice a complaint against a trail club. They don't exactly have a suggestion box or even an online place for comment. If a trail club has ever sent out an opinion poll or asked hikers opinions I have never seen one. It's like they are disconnected from non club members who hike there section of trail. Other than voicing our concerns with a sharpie on the shelter walls, Public forums like whiteblaze seem to be the only place left to take your issue to.
It seems to me most of the time you complain for the sake of complaining.
The vast majority of trail clubs are made up of volunteers and their work is on a voluntary basis. To secure the right to complain you need to become involved. Yapping from Whiteblaze isn't about to change anything on the ground.
Tuckahoe
12-01-2013, 18:26
I usually object when the complaint is unfounded, an unreasonable expectation, or complete ignorance.
There is a natural tendency or mind frame if you wish that it is harder to criticize a volunteer group or a charity because they are volunteer and not paid workers. It is just in human nature I guess.
And it get harder if one has not been involved in any volunteer trail works. I don't think closing the doors to any criticism will lead to a better world in long run even if it is done purely by volunteers.
Everybody can make mistakes and being a volunteer does not make one" fault proof" but as I said it is our tendency to spare trail authorities and clubs from criticism just because they are volunteers and their intention is all good.
Slo-go'en
12-01-2013, 18:34
If your not a member of a club, how do they know to notify you about something or ask for you opinion? And if your not a member of the club, why should your opinion count at all? You should be happy there are clubs and people who spend thier time maintaining trail and shelters, so that you can hike it.
Anyway, clubs don't set policy, they follow it. The goverment in the form of the Park service and forest service do that. The ATC is sort of an umbrella orginzation that co-ordinates section clubs and works with the goverment agencies in respect to trail issues. So, if you want a voice, join the ATC. Otherwise, join a club and start doing trail maintenance- that's what clubs primarly do. And if your still upset about the AMC huts, get over it - you don't live here.
I'm willing to bet most complaints about trails are lodged before the complainer has given it any thought, or they fail to see the costs, times, and effort involved.
It's easy to say the trail was trashed and overgrown in March before maintainers have been out there, or a certain section of trail needs a couple waterbars.
If your not a member of a club, how do they know to notify you about something or ask for you opinion? And if your not a member of the club, why should your opinion count at all? You should be happy there are clubs and people who spend thier time maintaining trail and shelters, so that you can hike it.
Anyway, clubs don't set policy, they follow it. The goverment in the form of the Park service and forest service do that. The ATC is sort of an umbrella orginzation that co-ordinates section clubs and works with the goverment agencies in respect to trail issues. So, if you want a voice, join the ATC. Otherwise, join a club and start doing trail maintenance- that's what clubs primarly do. And if your still upset about the AMC huts, get over it - you don't live here.
The bold part is why people are sensitive about the issue.Everybody has the right to question any group volunteer, or not.
hikerboy57
12-01-2013, 19:43
The bold part is why people are sensitive about the issue.Everybody has the right to question any group volunteer, or not.no they dont.
or at least it does not require a response.
Why would the US Government turn over the care and control of the Appalachian Trail to a trail club that was not accountable or answerable to the people?
no they dont.
or at least it does not require a response.
Yes they DO.
The second part of your comment I have no problem with. They are not obliged to response but that does not mean nobody can't question them just because they are not paid worker or their intention is great.
hikerboy57
12-01-2013, 20:12
if you are not already part of the solution you have no right to criticize
hikerboy57
12-01-2013, 20:13
besides moldy is just trolling again
if you are not already part of the solution you have no right to criticize
write this comment down and show it to ten different people ( hiker or not ) and ask them how many people think that is a reasonable statement.
HikerMom58
12-01-2013, 20:19
write this comment down and show it to ten different people ( hiker or not ) and ask them how many people think that is a reasonable statement.
I don't think it's a reasonable statement... it's not black and white like that. Sometimes it can be true, sometimes not.
hikerboy57
12-01-2013, 20:22
write this comment down and show it to ten different people ( hiker or not ) and ask them how many people think that is a reasonable statement.
okay ,let me clarify my comment.
there are millions of people who sit back and complain. they enjoy complaining.they do nothing about their situations, carry around a victim mentality and blame all their miseries upon someone else.we have become a country of sheep. in the 60s we sang "we can change the world", now they sing"we're waiting on the world to change"(j.mayer).what is the purpose of the op posting this on whiteblaze?
.
hikerboy57
12-01-2013, 20:22
Why would the US Government turn over the care and control of the Appalachian Trail to a trail club that was not accountable or answerable to the people?
the trail clubs built the trail, not the government.
Wise Old Owl
12-01-2013, 20:26
Oh Moldy as a past member of Wilmington Trail Club - I would not begin to complain about the clubs, or the lack of complaint here on WB ( there is a reason for that ) NPS mmmm yea but they are there to serve everyone and have little to do with the cards they were delt recently. Much of the govt shutdown was a sideshow to the public and many here fell for it. It was there to inconvenience people, some govt employees took a real hit.
I don't understand where you are going with this. I don't have any issues with clubs - tis a good system.
Wise Old Owl
12-01-2013, 20:27
the trail clubs built the trail, not the government.
When Earl hiked from end to end as one of the few to complete it - it was called the Government Trail. just saying.
hikerboy57
12-01-2013, 20:29
When Earl hiked from end to end as one of the few to complete it - it was called the Government Trail. just saying.
the trail clubs built the trail, not the government.
Anything that anyone, group or individual, does in the public eye, is subject to opinion and criticism. It is also the right of the person or group being criticized to not respond or ignore it.
As well, the opinions and criticisms put out publicly are subject to the same treatment. Put out criticism that is based on poor foundation, or selfish intent, and expect to get hammered for it. Conversely, if opinion or criticism is put forward with the genuine intent to help, or just to understand and learn, it should be encouraged and fostered.
Saying one shouldn't put forth because one does not live in that area, or has not joined that particular club is elitist and snobbish at best. The trail is a national resource, so by virtue of that designation, all citizens "live there". As well, it is not feasible, nor practical to join a volunteer club very far from where one does live. I do agree with joining and supporting the ATC in an attempt to be involved far from home.
Clubs, volunteer or not, are very probably always working with the best intent. Good intentions pave many things, depending on your philosophical point of view. Without input and criticism from those having differing perspectives, how can they be expected to address issues that may not have made it into their view. Far too often, most volunteer groups end up following the direction and vision of a small minority putting in the effort to plan and organize, and while no fault lies with those few for it, that means that perspective and import of issues is limited.
That said, opinion and criticism should be well thought out and supported with more than "this thing sucks", or "why should I have to..." They should also be polite, without emotion or venom of any sort. They need not always include alternative solutions, as seeing an issue and knowing how to fix it are not mutually inclusive, but should never come across as negative, accusatory, or attacking.
Instead of being negative to someone voicing concern, criticism, or disagreement, help or encourage them to formulate the ideas into something usable, and to get that to the person or group in question. Why not take a viewpoint and turn it into a potential opportunity for growth and positive change?
okay ,let me clarify my comment.
there are millions of people who sit back and complain. they enjoy complaining.they do nothing about their situations, carry around a victim mentality and blame all their miseries upon someone else.we have become a country of sheep. in the 60s we sang "we can change the world", now they sing"we're waiting on the world to change"(j.mayer).what is the purpose of the op posting this on whiteblaze?
.
Now we are talking HB. I try not to complain or whine and that is not my mentality when I hike. The point is not about who has the right or who does not. It is about opening our ears and heart to all of the suggestions( and even complaints) to make the trails even better.
Not all critics just criticize , some have some solutions and suggestions that may or may not be applicable. The point is about not missing these few constructive suggestions that we may miss if we close our minds to them saying " You are not part of the club, so Please" shot up".
Hikerboy, I'm not a troll, and you, Sly, and Slow-go'en are not cyber-bully's. We are all just confused as to what country we live in. Is this Russia?
hikerboy57
12-01-2013, 20:46
Hikerboy, I'm not a troll, and you, Sly, and Slow-go'en are not cyber-bully's. We are all just confused as to what country we live in. Is this Russia?
every few months its the same old rant, with nothing constructive to offer, only a rant.and im pretty sure you had already anticipated the response.if you have a concern of a particular section of trail, intead of ranting, why not contact that maintaining club and voice your concern, along with a constructive suggestion
hikerboy57
12-01-2013, 20:48
Now we are talking HB. I try not to complain or whine and that is not my mentality when I hike. The point is not about who has the right or who does not. It is about opening our ears and heart to all of the suggestions( and even complaints) to make the trails even better.
Not all critics just criticize , some have some solutions and suggestions that may or may not be applicable. The point is about not missing these few constructive suggestions that we may miss if we close our minds to them saying " You are not part of the club, so Please" shot up".
most maintainers want to know about areas that need their attention and appreciate the information being passed on. however, i dont think thats what the op had in mind with his post
the trail clubs built the trail, not the government.
If it was to be built by the "government", billions would have been spent by now and it still would not be completed over 80 years later!
I am truly grateful for the trail club volunteers building and maintaining the AT! :clap:clap:clap
I don't think it sensitivity so much as it's that some of the comments are just so frick'n ignorant.
Especially those directed at the AMC.
Another Kevin
12-02-2013, 00:25
Not just ignorant, but willfully so: "Don't you dare answer me with facts, I know I'm right!" Just like a dyed-in-the-wool Demopublican or Republicrat.
Sarcasm the elf
12-02-2013, 00:42
http://www.lifeisajoke.com/simpsons/magnets/Grandpa-snoring.jpg
Drybones
12-02-2013, 09:04
If it was to be built by the "government", billions would have been spent by now and it still would not be completed over 80 years later!
I am truly grateful for the trail club volunteers building and maintaining the AT! :clap:clap:clap
I am soooooo tempted to jump in here and get myself in trouble.... but I'll just bite my lip and refrain.
Drybones
12-02-2013, 09:12
1. There's a difference in constructive criticism and bitching.
2. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. People that work for free don't have to do it. As long as I'm paying taxes I have the right to complain about the gov't.
3. Anyone that sees something that needs fixing, you can complain to others or go fix it yourself... and let others complain about the job you did.
4. We're not entitled to anything we don't own...including the service of others...BTW, we own the gov't....supposedly anyway.
As someone who has spent a lot of time volunteering for various organizations I can tell you that the people who complain the loudest usually won't lift a finger to help implement the changes they claim to want. In volunteer organizations a lot of times the amount of influence you have is in direct proportion to the amount of time and money you are willing to devote to the organization. Most people want things done their way, whether they are the ones on the outside of the organization complaining or the ones on the inside doing the work...if you're the guy on the inside doing the work (and not getting paid for it), whose way do you think you are going to do it? In the organizations I've been involved in, when somebody has come to me with a criticism I usually say "That's a great idea, why don't you head up the project to get that done?" Their attitude changes when they find out they have to do the work. Which is why many people involved in volunteer organizations have such respect for the other members and their leadership, because they know that they are doing a thankless job and accomplishing things that really nobody else wants to do. Several years ago I was upset with the way an organization was being run and started going to the meetings, organized a group of like minded people with the idea of going in there and taking it over...we were all pretty surprised at the reaction we got...they said if you want to do it all you can have it, tossed us the keys and walked away...it was only then we learned how much work it all was and how little we were appreciated and how many people like to complain but not really do anything. Having said all that, just because you volunteer your time doesn't mean you own it...many times these types of organizations are made up of a bunch of self appointed do gooders who think they own something that really belongs to everybody, and they get very angry when they are reminded of that fact.
swjohnsey
12-02-2013, 10:44
You can't critize AMC.
4eyedbuzzard
12-02-2013, 11:34
the trail clubs built the trail, not the government.
If it was to be built by the "government", billions would have been spent by now and it still would not be completed over 80 years later!
I am truly grateful for the trail club volunteers building and maintaining the AT! :clap:clap:clap
Really? You sure about that? Ever read much about how the AT and other trails came to be?
I am soooooo tempted to jump in here and get myself in trouble.... but I'll just bite my lip and refrain.
Someone has to get into trouble, and I'm usually pretty good at it ;)
The AT would not be possible without hikers, maintainers, hiking clubs, the ATC, and local, state and federal government all working together.
But, for all you government haters, read this carefully: The AT simply would not exist without "the government."
Most of the early "founders" of the AT were either federal or state government employees or had close ties and worked with federal and state government agencies, and even the concept itself is tied to regional planning at the national level.
Read up a little ( http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-document-library/2011/04/16/Trail%20Years-%20A%20History%20of%20the%20Appalachian%20Trail%20 ConferenceCDCFD2F2022D.pdf ) especially on:
Benton MacKaye (USFS, US Dept of Labor)
Arthur Perkins (CT Judge)
Myron Avery (Federal Admiralty Lawyer)
Major William Welch (Chief Engineer & General Manager Palisades Interstate Park Commission, and one of the major early players in founding our National Park System)
National Trails System Act (1968) and Amendments (1978)
A lot of people come here from foreign countries to hike the AT and other trails. Ever wonder why? Because trail systems such as ours simply don't exist in most other places. The AT(and other trails) is one of the things government, in cooperation with ATC, NPS, USFS and local clubs did well.
hikerboy57
12-02-2013, 11:37
Really? You sure about that? Ever read much about how the AT and other trails came to be?
Someone has to get into trouble, and I'm usually pretty good at it ;)
The AT would not be possible without hikers, maintainers, hiking clubs, the ATC, and local, state and federal government all working together.
But, for all you government haters, read this carefully: The AT simply would not exist without "the government."
Most of the early "founders" of the AT were either federal or state government employees or had close ties and worked with federal and state government agencies, and even the concept itself is tied to regional planning at the national level.
Read up a little ( http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-document-library/2011/04/16/Trail%20Years-%20A%20History%20of%20the%20Appalachian%20Trail%20 ConferenceCDCFD2F2022D.pdf ) especially on:
Benton MacKaye (USFS, US Dept of Labor)
Arthur Perkins (CT Judge)
Myron Avery (Federal Admiralty Lawyer)
Major William Welch (Chief Engineer & General Manager Palisades Interstate Park Commission, and one of the major early players in founding our National Park System)
National Trails System Act (1968) and Amendments (1978)
A lot of people come here from foreign countries to hike the AT and other trails. Ever wonder why? Because trail systems such as ours simply don't exist in most other places. The AT(and other trails) is one of the things government, in cooperation with ATC, NPS, USFS and local clubs did well.
very welll put, and put together the links.
government can serve the people from time to time, and you're right, the at is an excellent example
Pedaling Fool
12-02-2013, 11:57
We got a good country. :)
Having said that why are there no privies along the http://tehcc.org/ section (which I like), but there are shelters, not only shelters, but many of them are the ugly concrete block shelters.
Go ahead pile on me -- I dare you, I can take it :D
You can't critize AMC.
Agree.........
Slo-go'en
12-02-2013, 12:28
Let me clarify my "you don't live here" comment. If you don't live here, you probably don't understand the unique problems and challenges a given area has. The AT, along with the PCT and CDT for that matter, all have areas with thier own unique problems, challenges and history which determine the way things are. One reason for the regional clubs is for that local knowlage.
High use areas which also happen to have fragile ecosystems like the Smokies and the White Mts require different managment then lesser used and less fragile ecosystems along the trail.
4eyedbuzzard
12-02-2013, 12:43
You can't critize AMC.
Agree.........
What are your constructive suggestions for how they could improve?
Slo-go'en
12-02-2013, 12:46
We got a good country. :)
Having said that why are there no privies along the http://tehcc.org/ section (which I like), but there are shelters, not only shelters, but many of them are the ugly concrete block shelters.
Go ahead pile on me -- I dare you, I can take it :D
The concrete block shelters were built by the Forest Service in the 50's or 60's and they did it in the least expensive way in a manor which requires little maintenance. Also, thier pretty hard to burn down :)
Privies take work to maintain. If you'd like to adopt a privy to maintain, I'm sure you'd be welcome to do so. I've done a fair amount of dealing with other peoples poop. It's not a pleasent job. And how hard is it to take a stick and knock down the ***** cone when it gets almost to the seat? I had to do that at least a dozen times this spring as I followed behind the pack.
Drybones
12-02-2013, 13:02
You can't critize AMC.
Agree, that flat head Rambler 6-cylinder was one of the best cars ever made.
illabelle
12-02-2013, 13:49
One of the best comments on the thread!
Anything that anyone, group or individual, does in the public eye, is subject to opinion and criticism. It is also the right of the person or group being criticized to not respond or ignore it.
As well, the opinions and criticisms put out publicly are subject to the same treatment. Put out criticism that is based on poor foundation, or selfish intent, and expect to get hammered for it. Conversely, if opinion or criticism is put forward with the genuine intent to help, or just to understand and learn, it should be encouraged and fostered.
Saying one shouldn't put forth because one does not live in that area, or has not joined that particular club is elitist and snobbish at best. The trail is a national resource, so by virtue of that designation, all citizens "live there". As well, it is not feasible, nor practical to join a volunteer club very far from where one does live. I do agree with joining and supporting the ATC in an attempt to be involved far from home.
Clubs, volunteer or not, are very probably always working with the best intent. Good intentions pave many things, depending on your philosophical point of view. Without input and criticism from those having differing perspectives, how can they be expected to address issues that may not have made it into their view. Far too often, most volunteer groups end up following the direction and vision of a small minority putting in the effort to plan and organize, and while no fault lies with those few for it, that means that perspective and import of issues is limited.
That said, opinion and criticism should be well thought out and supported with more than "this thing sucks", or "why should I have to..." They should also be polite, without emotion or venom of any sort. They need not always include alternative solutions, as seeing an issue and knowing how to fix it are not mutually inclusive, but should never come across as negative, accusatory, or attacking.
Instead of being negative to someone voicing concern, criticism, or disagreement, help or encourage them to formulate the ideas into something usable, and to get that to the person or group in question. Why not take a viewpoint and turn it into a potential opportunity for growth and positive change?
illabelle
12-02-2013, 13:50
Second best
;)
Agree, that flat head Rambler 6-cylinder was one of the best cars ever made.
Last Call
12-02-2013, 15:24
You can't critize AMC.
Don't forget about the Gremlin...wish I still had one!
4eyedbuzzard
12-02-2013, 15:30
Don't forget about the Gremlin...wish I still had one!Gremlins are great - unless you get them wet.
Gremlins are great - unless you get them wet.
That just makes more of them. Feed 'em after midnight and you are in real trouble.
Another Kevin
12-02-2013, 21:16
We got a good country. :)
Having said that why are there no privies along the http://tehcc.org/ section (which I like), but there are shelters, not only shelters, but many of them are the ugly concrete block shelters.
Go ahead pile on me -- I dare you, I can take it :D
I don't know about where you hike, but there are no privies in Harriman because it's so heavily used by New York suburbanites who are even more clueless than I am! When it had privies, they'd be filled with garbage in a matter of days because people would just put everything down them: campfire ashes, tin cans, cardboard boxes, plastic containers, discarded gear, you name it. And the poop would just get spread all over by critters who went down them in search of the uneaten food that people also dumped in.
Eventually the parks department and the trail conference decided that enough was enough, and filled in the privies. So if you're at Fingerboard, the best course of action is probably just hold it for a mile and a half until you get to the bathhouse at Tiorati.
atmilkman
12-02-2013, 23:10
Agree, that flat head Rambler 6-cylinder was one of the best cars ever made.
My 3 on the column was a beast. Could not kill it.
Cookerhiker
12-03-2013, 09:36
When Earl hiked from end to end as one of the few to complete it - it was called the Government Trail. just saying.
the trail clubs built the trail, not the government.
Even though the government didn't build the trail, it was referred to as the "Government Trail" in the South. I suppose the locals couldn't fathom why anyone would build a hiking trail.
If it was to be built by the "government", billions would have been spent by now and it still would not be completed over 80 years later!
I am truly grateful for the trail club volunteers building and maintaining the AT! :clap:clap:clap
Really? You sure about that? Ever read much about how the AT and other trails came to be?
Someone has to get into trouble, and I'm usually pretty good at it ;)
The AT would not be possible without hikers, maintainers, hiking clubs, the ATC, and local, state and federal government all working together.
But, for all you government haters, read this carefully: The AT simply would not exist without "the government."
Most of the early "founders" of the AT were either federal or state government employees or had close ties and worked with federal and state government agencies, and even the concept itself is tied to regional planning at the national level.
Read up a little ( http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-document-library/2011/04/16/Trail%20Years-%20A%20History%20of%20the%20Appalachian%20Trail%20 ConferenceCDCFD2F2022D.pdf ) especially on:
Benton MacKaye (USFS, US Dept of Labor)
Arthur Perkins (CT Judge)
Myron Avery (Federal Admiralty Lawyer)
Major William Welch (Chief Engineer & General Manager Palisades Interstate Park Commission, and one of the major early players in founding our National Park System)
National Trails System Act (1968) and Amendments (1978)
A lot of people come here from foreign countries to hike the AT and other trails. Ever wonder why? Because trail systems such as ours simply don't exist in most other places. The AT(and other trails) is one of the things government, in cooperation with ATC, NPS, USFS and local clubs did well.
Everything that Buzzard said is correct, but he didn't cover it all. For a trail to exist, it doesn't matter how many dedicated volunteers you have, nor how sophisticated their equipment is. The necessary pre-condition for all of this is having the available land in the first place. Absent any "government" involvement in the form of National Forests specifically, as well as National Parks and State Parks, our "trail" would be mostly roadwalks.
This is why we not only owe a debt to Myron Avery, Arthur Perkins, MacKaye, et. al. for their involvement in planning and building the AT, we owe even more to Theodore Roosevelt and his legacy of conservation. In TR's administration alone, over 230 million acres of public lands were protected. While most of these lands were in the West (PCT, CDT anyone?), the subsequent passage of the Weeks Act authorized National Forests in the East, hence Green Mountain, White Mountain, Pisgah, Nantahala, etc.
This is also why those who think that trails would be better off without the big, bad government are wrong-headed.
Slo-go'en
12-03-2013, 14:27
Even though the government didn't build the trail, it was referred to as the "Government Trail" in the South. I suppose the locals couldn't fathom why anyone would build a hiking trail.
I imagine that was because much of the trail and many shelters were built by the CCC during the great depression. This was one of the many "make work" inferstructure projects the goverment funded to put people to work. Too bad that concept doesn't work today.
And then more recently, the feds used eminate domain to take over private land, much of it in NC, to create the current trail corridor. This created a lot of hostility towards hikers for a while, thankfully most of which has subsided now.
bamboo bob
12-09-2013, 21:26
the trail clubs built the trail, not the government.
Amen to that.
bamboo bob
12-09-2013, 21:29
You can't critize AMC. You're baiting.