View Full Version : How cold is too cold?
Different Socks
12-07-2013, 16:19
Granted this isn't the Appalachian Mtns of the north, but north central Montana, where I currently live(3 hrs east of CDT), had an air temp of -36 last night at 2am, windchill of -55!! I know, b/c I was out in it trying to get my car running!
Even if you have all the right equip/clothing, how cold is "too cold" for all of you to spend a night on any trail?
Feral Bill
12-07-2013, 16:30
I've camped in the Adirondacks at below -30 F, and enjoyed it. I was younger then. Still, I'd say that -20 would be no problem, properly equipped. Wind, of course, would be a big factor.
Tipi Walter
12-07-2013, 16:37
Luckily where I backpack in the Southeast mountains of NC, VA and TN it occasionally gets to -10F and very rarely to -30F (See the Arctic Outbreak of January 1985). I can handle pretty much anything down to about -20, at least my equipment can, although my aging body balks more and more every year and every winter.
Sometimes I find it harder to stay warm at 35F in a two day rainstorm than 5F in a dry wind---cuz my geese like the dryness and stay fluffier and keep me warmer.
In real low temps I get somewhat paralyzed and don't want to move and pack---packing in the morning is the hardest thing to do at very low temps---the shelter especially must be rolled and stuffed. So, I usually stay put and pull a couple zeros in these conditions. There are several types of storms---rainstorm, snowstorm, and coldstorms. Yes, plummeting temps and frigid digits are also an incoming storm and you can sit them out and they will pass.
I have been just below zero before. Not sure i would venture much below that with a serious upgrade of my 20 degree quilt. There is only so far you can push a three season kit even using all the tricks.
Granted this isn't the Appalachian Mtns of the north, but north central Montana, where I currently live(3 hrs east of CDT), had an air temp of -36 last night at 2am, windchill of -55!! I know, b/c I was out in it trying to get my car running!
Even if you have all the right equip/clothing, how cold is "too cold" for all of you to spend a night on any trail?
Despit it also getting down to about minus 50 degres Celsius(minus 58 degrees Farenheit) it still doesn't compare overall to being on Mars at night.
I hear the off trail hiking there is phenomenal though. Wait, it's all off trail.
4eyedbuzzard
12-07-2013, 17:16
Day hikes and skiing down to 10°F are okay as long as the wind isn't blowing hard. But even in my younger days I never really liked being out in anything below 0°F though I did it quite often. I now only have one sleeping bag, a 35°F WM bag that is good down to freezing temps. If I have to sleep with my coffee water, it's too cold IMO. That's why they make log cabins and wood stoves.
ChinMusic
12-07-2013, 17:39
I choose to be off the trail at 15. I am prepared, and tested, to -5. I just don't like it below 15
On the Appalachian Trail I draw the line at plus 20. If it gets colder than that, I go to town. That is the limit of the equipment I have.
to me about 10F is when everything becomes very inconvenient, every thing has to be in the sleeping bag at night, air starts to sting, water freezes to fast during the day
I choose to be off the trail at 15. I am prepared, and tested, to -5. I just don't like it below 15
i'm right there with you, chinmusic... it just doesn't become a whole other activity than hiking until you get below around 15. might as well be on mars below zero, or at least call it something other than hiking.
Traffic Jam
12-07-2013, 17:57
I have a really hard time sleeping in temps below 25. I don't know what's wrong with me but I freeze in my 20deg bag, base layers/clothes, hat, and wool socks. Once I get cold I can't warm up. I pretty much just day hike Dec-Mar, missing out on prime backpacking solitude. I'll probably start saving for a 0deg bag.
For me it is not so much the cold, but the time of the year. Sure, I could push the envelope and camp out in -20F..but being huddled in my sleeping bag for ~15 hrs at this time of the year is no fun. At least for me. If it is even -5F out, you can be toasty enough to read a bit while it is very dark out. -20F? Makes for a looooong night esp solo.
Now, if it was even February and I had a bit more daylight so I am not huddlingin my bag all night, that's another story.
Wise Old Owl
12-07-2013, 18:07
Why? Why? Why? at 52 years old I love the woods as well as cyber hiking here. My take is simple if you are cold, wet, windy and it looks like a inbound hurricane - go home. I have backpacked and camped several hurricanes over the years and a few Nor' easters - when I bring the boys home the women can stop worrying... (not about me cus the darn insurance is paid)
Nobody is going to praise you for hiking five miles uphill both ways.
20 is about my lower limit at night. I would like it to be above freezing during the day. I like a good cold hike but backpacking below freezing just gets so inconvenient. At least if I'm skiing I'm cold but not carrying all the crap on my back. And there's a lodge.
Why? Why? Why?
Because being outside in winter is beautiful?
http://pmags2.jzapin.com/gallery2/d/11705-2/act.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8244/8532181247_2a909fdc93.jpg
http://pmags2.jzapin.com/gallery2/d/23894-1/image011.jpg
Wise Old Owl
12-07-2013, 18:32
Uh yea... out there.... Here we have a McDonald's at the end of each section... did you not get the memo? I would trade places any day Paul!
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?100085-Why-McDonalds
Odd Man Out
12-07-2013, 18:45
You know when it gets really cold, you can just start reading the temps in deg C. That will make it sound warmer.:rolleyes:
Different Socks
12-07-2013, 18:59
Despit it also getting down to about minus 50 degres Celsius(minus 58 degrees Farenheit) it still doesn't compare overall to being on Mars at night.
Half the adventure would be getting there, the other half would be staying warm hiking all those miles long and miles high mtns.
HooKooDooKu
12-07-2013, 19:36
On the Appalachian Trail I draw the line at plus 20. If it gets colder than that, I go to town. That is the limit of the equipment I have.
Best answer I think I've seen. Given that I've seen documentaries on adventurers of olden days and scientists of modern days camping in the Antarctic, it's strictly a question of what equipment/clothing you take.
Beyond that, the only other comment I can think to make is that I think most people would say their lower limit is somewhere between +20 to +32 if their gear is basically limited to three-season gear.
Sarcasm the elf
12-07-2013, 19:40
My gear is good down to about -5*f and so am I...I can go on dayhikes when it's colder but I don't have much of an interest in getting myself into an overnight at temps colder than that.
Sarcasm the elf
12-07-2013, 19:43
Best answer I think I've seen. Given that I've seen documentaries on adventurers of olden days and scientists of modern days camping in the Antarctic, it's strictly a question of what equipment/clothing you take.
Beyond that, the only other comment I can think to make is that I think most people would say their lower limit is somewhere between +20 to +32 if their gear is basically limited to three-season gear.
Owning a zero degree sleeping bag and cold weather gear is great, hiking in the snow is beautiful and we usually have the A.T. to ourselves from lat December to early March. Those of you that haven't tried it should at least consider giving it a chance.
HooKooDooKu
12-07-2013, 20:04
Owning a zero degree sleeping bag and cold weather gear is great, hiking in the snow is beautiful and we usually have the A.T. to ourselves from lat December to early March. Those of you that haven't tried it should at least consider giving it a chance.
I must say that one of my most favorite day hikes was to be the 1st person to hike parts of the Alum Cave Trail in GSMNP just after a snow storm dropped about 12" of snow over the course of a few days. It was literally walking through a winter wonderland. Between the snow on the ground and the snow on the trees (sometimes falling off the trees), the hike was beautiful. So I can understand the appeal a winter hike holds for some.
But when it comes to over-night trips, I'm a 3-season kind of back packer.
jimmyjam
12-07-2013, 20:10
20+ at night is about it for me, that is about the limit of my gear. I still hike this time of year, but only day hikes. Though I do carry my full pack on day hikes to help keep in shape.
MuddyWaters
12-07-2013, 21:14
Depends on the daytime temps , as well as the overnight low, and precipitation if there is any.
Clear and sunny with 40 in the day and 15 and night, is much different than cloudy with 22 in the day and 15 at night.
One is much more enjoyable.
Clear and sunny, overnight lows to 10 or so would be OK by me, for a few days at a time max.
For me it is not so much the cold, but the time of the year.... Makes for a looooong night esp solo.
Now, if it was even February and I had a bit more daylight so I am not huddlingin my bag all night, that's another story.
Easy answer for that. Head to the southern hemisphere in Feb to hike. :D Patagonia, Australia, Oz
After spending a few Christmas/Winter/etc etc etc Holidays in Hawaii it finally sunk in that half the world celebrates it when it's the summer season.
Has to be some fair weather winter hiking in mid/southern Italy.
colorado_rob
12-07-2013, 22:16
My wife and I have been out many a night at between 0 and -25F (the coldest being at high camp on Denali), but never any colder than that yet, though I'm thinking about -40 would be our limit, since our sleeping bags are rated to about -25 (we find these rating conservative, hence my -40 guess at where we would start being cold) . These conditions are usually on a very high mountain where our "reward" is a significant summit. We have the gear and there is some nice satisfying aspect of being totally comfortable is these conditions. We did our fist zero night of the year last weekend and had a blast. We love this stuff. Until about early March or so... then we can't wait until spring/summer!
garlic08
12-07-2013, 22:54
Below about -25, with wind, is just hard. Any exposed flesh freezes very quickly. I've only experienced that a couple of times in the backcountry. It's hard on equipment, too. I had a XC ski boot fail on me at -28, the rubber sole was just too stiff and it cracked. That was a close call, since I was not equipped to last a night. So I think that's my lower limit, even with the right insulation.
what has not been covered is multiple days of 35 F and rain is more difficult to deal with than cold until about - 10
Slo-go'en
12-07-2013, 23:53
I've camped out at -20 a few times. I think -33 was my coldeset night. Done it just often enough to know I like hiking in the extrem cold, but sure don't like to camp in it!
And yea, a damp cold just above freezing is much worse then sub zero.
colorado_rob
12-08-2013, 00:04
what has not been covered is multiple days of 35 F and rain is more difficult to deal with than cold until about - 10True this! Except I'd say more like 45 F and rain....
Feral Bill
12-08-2013, 00:50
You know when it gets really cold, you can just start reading the temps in deg C. That will make it sound warmer.:rolleyes: Until you hit -40
Sarcasm the elf
12-08-2013, 00:53
Until you hit -40
Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoqOLll2xr0&sns=em
Odd Man Out
12-08-2013, 11:26
Until you hit -40
Yup. Like I said - "really cold".
Kerosene
12-08-2013, 12:20
I had the "pleasure" of camping overnight at Winterburg (aka, Forestburg) near Port Vernon, NY in the early 70's. It got down to 27-below the second night, warming to a high of 10-below the next day. I was sufficiently warm in bed, but I'm lucky that I didn't get frostbite on my feet from lacing my leather boots too tightly.
My existing equipment would probably only take me down to 10 degrees or so, but now that I've relocated to Minnesota I may have the opportunity to try out colder temps. The high in the Twin Cities yesterday was -2F, with an overnight low of -12F.
daddytwosticks
12-08-2013, 15:25
I'm like a few others who've posted. I'm happy doing day hikes this time of year, weather permitting. I do overnighters from about mid March through late October. :)
mrcoffeect
12-08-2013, 18:03
when my butt cheeks are in danger of freezing to the privy seat, its too cold
gpburdelljr
12-08-2013, 19:45
It's all about the gear. At 0 F your wine will start to get ice crystals.
johnnybgood
12-08-2013, 20:35
My sleeping.bag takes me down to a conservative 23 degrees. Wearing a tiered base layer to my sleep system adds considerable warmth to the middle teens. That's about my absolute limit --15 degrees.
colorado_rob
12-08-2013, 21:34
It's all about the gear. At 0 F your wine will start to get ice crystals.Not if you drink it fast enough! True story, couple years ago on a Denali training climb, mid-winter, below zero temps at bedtime, we still had a 12 pack (out of original case) of Microbrew left, too cold to sit around, too lazy to build a fire so we had to bed down, so we buried our beer deep in the snow to keep it from freezing. Raise your hand if you've buried beer in snow, NOT to chill it off but to keep it liquid....
Feral Bill
12-08-2013, 22:06
It's all about the gear. At 0 F your wine will start to get ice crystals. Thus hard liquor
Cookerhiker
12-09-2013, 08:28
I've done day hikes in the single digits and felt quite comfortable because it was dry and sunny - much better than 33 degrees and cold rain.
Night: lowest I'd do is +10. I once cancelled a pre-Southern Ruck Winding Stair Gap-to-NOC backpack because of predicted night lows in single digits in the valleys, i.e. Franklin, Bryson City. Didn't want to camp at 5,000' likely below zero.
Drybones
12-09-2013, 09:58
It's too cold when the snot freezes in my nose at night.
rocketsocks
12-09-2013, 10:06
Honestly, don't know how cold is to cold (not much experience with it overnight)...but i'm gonna try and find out, and I'd venture to say it is some where around the limits of my gear, as others have said.
Different Socks
12-09-2013, 10:58
Thank you for all of the replies!! If on the AT and the temps drop to below zero, would a 3 season tent set up in a shelter be good enough to keep a person warm and protected inisde a 0' degree bag?
colorado_rob
12-09-2013, 11:06
Thank you for all of the replies!! If on the AT and the temps drop to below zero, would a 3 season tent set up in a shelter be good enough to keep a person warm and protected inisde a 0' degree bag? Depends on the "0 degree bag". There are "0 degree bags" and "0 degree bags", if you follow. If it is a Coleman "0 degree bag", probably not. If it is a Marmot/Mountain Hardware/Western Mountaineering, then probably yes. I use a 0 degree bag (mountainsmith) all the time in sub zero conditions using hot water bottles for extra warmth, along with wearing a couple layers while sleeping. Being in side the shelter will help because it cuts way down on radiative heat loss (from clear skies). A smaller 3-season tent would probably be better, but make sure to vent it a bit to reduce the inevitable condensation. Just my 2-cents worth after hundreds of nights backpacking/camping in bitter cold conditions (but mostly out west).
Tipi Walter
12-09-2013, 12:07
what has not been covered is multiple days of 35 F and rain is more difficult to deal with than cold until about - 10
That's the truth. Saturated air/high humidity at low temps (35F) with nonstop rain is a real test on the insulating capacity of goose down. But then a couple days later and you're in a 10F windstorm inside a tent with dry air and no humidity---and the geese are happy and you stay warmer.
Honestly, don't know how cold is to cold (not much experience with it overnight)...but i'm gonna try and find out, and I'd venture to say it is some where around the limits of my gear, as others have said.
There are different cycles of cold and different lengths to a winter storm. In the Southeast it can be 60F on Christmas day or 10F below. There can be 3 inches of ridgetop snow or 3 feet. You may carry Kahtoola microspikes for 3 weeks and never need them or you may have a Death Slide on Day 12 and weep in happiness cuz you brought your spikes.
There are blizzards that come in succession and never seem to end. One, two, three POW!! And so you're stuck in place or wimp out and bail to the closest town. There are cold snaps for 10 days straight where the temps never get above 25F and always 10F at night. There are the radio forecasts which spell doom for the long term backpacker and your gut level intuition hits rock bottom---"Man, I'm gonna have to deal with this crap for the next week!"---as when a forecast calls from low temps and snowstorms with no end in sight. You eventually have a love/hate embrace with the wind and wonder what the Sun looks like.
Thank you for all of the replies!! If on the AT and the temps drop to below zero, would a 3 season tent set up in a shelter be good enough to keep a person warm and protected inisde a 0' degree bag?
Just carry a four season tent with no unsealable mesh and forget about the rat box shelters.
Traffic Jam
12-09-2013, 12:08
Colorado Rob, I've been looking at hot water bottles and wondering if it would be worth trying. Do you use a traditional one?
Drybones
12-09-2013, 14:58
Thank you for all of the replies!! If on the AT and the temps drop to below zero, would a 3 season tent set up in a shelter be good enough to keep a person warm and protected inisde a 0' degree bag?
It should be. I think a key to staying warm is the tent to keep the wind off and keep the underside insulated. I dont recall ever sleeping cold in a tent with the gear I now have but I've had several cold nights in a shelter when it wasn't that cold...I got cold from the bottom side.
Drybones
12-09-2013, 14:59
Depends on the "0 degree bag". There are "0 degree bags" and "0 degree bags", if you follow. If it is a Coleman "0 degree bag", probably not. If it is a Marmot/Mountain Hardware/Western Mountaineering, then probably yes. I use a 0 degree bag (mountainsmith) all the time in sub zero conditions using hot water bottles for extra warmth, along with wearing a couple layers while sleeping. Being in side the shelter will help because it cuts way down on radiative heat loss (from clear skies). A smaller 3-season tent would probably be better, but make sure to vent it a bit to reduce the inevitable condensation. Just my 2-cents worth after hundreds of nights backpacking/camping in bitter cold conditions (but mostly out west).
Agree...bag rating are questionable.
Gravesbrock
12-09-2013, 19:28
If the temperature is not going to get above freezing at some point in time during the day it's too cold for me.
Feral Bill
12-09-2013, 20:46
Thank you for all of the replies!! If on the AT and the temps drop to below zero, would a 3 season tent set up in a shelter be good enough to keep a person warm and protected inisde a 0' degree bag? I have done so many times. A four seasons tent is for extreme snow loads and/or heavy wind. Just not needed below tree line in the east, for the most part. If it snows and snows, keep the tent shoveled off. In the Presidential Range, it's a whole different world that goes beyond backpacking in winter.
MuddyWaters
12-09-2013, 20:51
Thank you for all of the replies!! If on the AT and the temps drop to below zero, would a 3 season tent set up in a shelter be good enough to keep a person warm and protected inisde a 0' degree bag?
depends on how far below 0 as well as the bag.
In calm conditions, with just myself in a 2P/double wall/3 season tent, I once used a remote digital thermometer (inside/outside) to verify how much the tent provided me. With outside temp at 35F, it was precisely 3.5 F warmer in the tent in the morning than outside.
With my son with me when he was 11, it was 25F outside, and inside the tent didnt even feel cold in morning.
colorado_rob
12-10-2013, 00:05
Colorado Rob, I've been looking at hot water bottles and wondering if it would be worth trying. Do you use a traditional one? The hot water bottles I was referring to are simply my drinking water bottles filled with near-boiling water. Basically just two 1-quart Gatorade bottles. I always have a few ounces of cold water in the bottles before pouring hot water into them, or else the bottle distorts. Obviously, make sure the cap is on tight! I then pull a sock over each of two bottles to slow the heat loss from them so they last most of the night. One is typically down around my feet, the other near my torso. The next day they are still somewhat warm which is handy because they freeze less fast (and are easier to drink) during the day's hike. Once at the next camp, repeat the process. Works great to "add" warmth to your sleep setup in the winter.
On sleeping bag ratings - there are 2 extreme measures of if a bag is "warm enough"
are you alive in the morning?
are you warm and well rested?
the middle ground is large - most people never explore the ragged edge of the first option
garlic08
12-10-2013, 08:41
One caveat for the water bottle in the sleeping bag method--put the bottle in a gallon ziplock. A leak could be fatal. A friend had a leak from ice crystals on the cap threads and in the morning had ice inside his bag--not much sleep there, but at least he woke up alive. I agree, that's a fine way to stay warmer on sub-zero nights, and it's so nice to have a warm drink handy any time during the night or next morning. I do the same on winter day trips--wrap my fleece around a hot bottle with my food in there, so at midday I have a warm lunch, warm drink, and warm fleece to put on.
In addition to rodents, I have a problem with plank shelter floors on cold nights. I'd rather be on the dirt, if it's not snowing and blowing too heavily.
peakbagger
12-10-2013, 08:49
I have the gear and the skills for -30 but not the motivation. I don't really mind the intense cold as long as there isn't wind with it. Add in wind and its either hunker down or escape
Once its well below freezing getting wet from external sources is not an issue so insulation works right if perspiration is dealt with. Its also an opportunity to eat as many calories as you want.
Traffic Jam
12-10-2013, 09:42
The hot water bottles I was referring to are simply my drinking water bottles filled with near-boiling water. Basically just two 1-quart Gatorade bottles. I always have a few ounces of cold water in the bottles before pouring hot water into them, or else the bottle distorts. Obviously, make sure the cap is on tight! I then pull a sock over each of two bottles to slow the heat loss from them so they last most of the night. One is typically down around my feet, the other near my torso. The next day they are still somewhat warm which is handy because they freeze less fast (and are easier to drink) during the day's hike. Once at the next camp, repeat the process. Works great to "add" warmth to your sleep setup in the winter.
Thanks for the tip. It's so simple and obvious but I'd never have thought of it on my own. I'd be lugging my granny's old hot water bottle!
colorado_rob
12-10-2013, 09:43
Thanks for the tip. It's so simple and obvious but I'd never have thought of it on my own. I'd be lugging my granny's old hot water bottle! Though in 30+ years of winter camping I've never had a hot-water bottle leak in my sleeping bag, I still like the zip-lock tip from Garlic... thanks.
re: gatorade bottles
Just to emphasize the near-boiling caveat. If you make the water too hot, you'll have a funky looking gatorade bottle. Not that I've ever done that before. ;)
Learn from my dumb mistakes in the past and keep it closer to the "near" side vs the "boiling" side.
colorado_rob
12-10-2013, 10:18
re: gatorade bottles
Just to emphasize the near-boiling caveat. If you make the water too hot, you'll have a funky looking gatorade bottle. Not that I've ever done that before. ;)
Learn from my dumb mistakes in the past and keep it closer to the "near" side vs the "boiling" side. Try the few ounces of cold water in the bottom thing next time, Mags. Takes the guess work out of "near-boiling" and eliminates the WGBS (warped gatorade bottle syndrome)
Try the few ounces of cold water in the bottom thing next time, Mags. Takes the guess work out of "near-boiling" and eliminates the WGBS (warped gatorade bottle syndrome)
Oh yeah. I know that now many years later. Experience is a great teacher, but the tuition is high! :D
JansportD2
12-10-2013, 10:40
I've come to enjoy lightweight backpacking and that becomes difficult if it gets too cold. I draw the line at my ability to find liquid water at or near camp each night. I don't want to haul around a gas stove and gas to melt snow or ice. If I can find a spring, I leave my Gatorade bottles or platypus submerged there for the night. While hiking, A platypus in the sleeve of my pack near to my back has yet to freeze.
Last December, my son and I did a section in Pennsylvania and it became more snowy and colder than predicted. We were traveling pretty light with 20 degree bags and alcohol stoves. We were fine with the cold - probably down to the high teens at night - and were able to find springs each evening. I got tired of post-holing in the deepening snow (my son is tall and has a long stride and it seemed harder following him than breaking trail) and we left the trail for some motel camping. We would have been fine with snowshoes.
25206
Here's my son, Sherpaboy, in front of Rausch Gap Shelter.