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Popnfrsh24
12-13-2013, 09:48
Hey all,

Lighthouse here, and I completed my thru hike in late September this year. It was the absolute time of my life, and it was seriously the best thing decision I ever made. I am off the trail now, and I am struggling hard to figure out what path I should take with life.

I was an electrical engineer before I left the trail, and I was working my butt off. I was working 60-70+ hours a week in a warehouse programming robotic forktruck vehicles. It was pretty cool I guess, but working that much just sucks. I knew I needed a change, and after my sister passed away from cancer in September 2012, I knew that I was going to stop everything and hike the trail this year.

It was a blast. Every day out there was amazing. I loved being out there. Even the crappy days weren't so crappy in my eyes. I would say that when I was working, I had at least 2 crappy days a week! I had no prior hiking experience before this, but it sounded just so cool. I was so right in my decision, if anyone else is in my shoes, do it!!

Well the trail is over, and readjusting back to society has been hard. I didn't think it would be this tough. Honestly, hiking the trail was easy in my eyes, but figuring out what to do next has been a super challenge. I am working in a warehouse part time now just to keep myself active and earn some money while I look for a "professional" job again. The job I do pretty much sucks...I am just finding stuff, and putting it in boxes, and shipping it out. It can get real busy at night, we have to finish whatever gets ordered that day, so that gets 'stressful' when you have a lot of orders that you have to complete at the end of the night. I don't know how I can complain because I only work 30 hours a week, but I still do. I am fortunate enough to live back in my parents house, so I am not paying for rent at the moment.

I have spent a lot of time trying to find another electrical engineering job, but I just have no clue if that is the right path for me to take. I would say I am the "worst" electrical engineer, I don't spend any of my free time tinkering with electronics or building robotics like most other engineers do. I usually just play guitar. That is my big passion. Although guitar is my passion, I don't think there is any way I could make a career out of it. Should I even go down the route of getting another electrical engineering job? After the trail, I even feel more of a disconnect from technology. Am I just feeding into the machine of overexposure to technology by getting an electrical engineering job?

I have been searching a lot for engineering jobs, and it is getting me down that I haven't heard back from many of the companies. I have had one promising interview, but the job entails sitting at a computer coding for the entire day. I have my doubts that I can get used to that all day! My parents (especially my mom) are telling me that vacation time is over, and it is time to grow up and get a job. I never like to disappoint them, so I am trying to do that. I have only had one electrical engineering job, and if I don't get another one now, I think all of the programs and skills I learned in college will be obsolete, so that is motivation to get another engineering job right off the bat. But I have this fear that I will get another "professional" job and life will just be..."meh"...every day, and it is tough to imagine living like that again for the rest of my life. I am not sure if I should go for an engineering position, or try a sales position, or do something completely different. I do feel like we are overworked as a country, but how do I get around that? Sure, if the work is satisfying, then it shouldn't be a problem, but I am having trouble picturing what would be a good job that I can work.

I am fortunate enough to not have any student debt from college, and I have never been a very materialistic person. The trail also cemented that, I was totally fine with just having my gear, guitar, and good company. So, should I ditch a high paying engineering job to try and focus on something that pays less, but is more satisfying? I think America is overworked and we hardly have enough time for anything, so we resort to quick and easy meals that are destroying our bodies. Should I be looking at getting a job that provides healthy food, or that promotes exercising in some sort of way?

I am just so lost...I didn't think it would be this tough! I am almost looking forward to going to bed every night, just so I can get away and dream. I am having lots of dreams about mountains, which is strange. I know you all at whiteblaze are a great community, and you guys helped me out immensely for planning out my AT thru hike. Now, can any thru hikers give me some advice on what to do now with my life? Am I just worrying about everything too much? Do I just need to get another "professional" job and hope that it won't be so bad?

Thanks a million,

Lighthouse

moldy
12-13-2013, 10:04
Be patient and try not to think so much. Life comes at you fast enough, no need to edge it along. In the end you will be assimilated into the collective. Resistance is futile. I did notice that many people "find themselves" on the Appalachian Trail. Every once in a while, someone will become, "lost on the Appalachian Trail". In the meantime I hear that the Marines are looking for a few good men.

forrest!
12-13-2013, 10:16
Asking for help in a public forum means you will get lots of conflicting advice that probably won't help very much!

I'm with your mom on this - get a job and grow up. After a year or two, relocate close to the trail (or any community with lots of outdoor recreational opportunities). A particular job doesn't have to be forever. Work your way up to better jobs that give you more vacation/free time.

And your attitude about work will show in job interviews. If you go in there thinking that you really want to hike and play guitar for the rest of your life, you probably won't get the job.

Seatbelt
12-13-2013, 10:46
You might consider getting a temporary job that requires some physical exertion for a while. Amazing how hard work can help bring some things into perspective. It probably would improve your standing with your parents at the same time. Meanwhile, you can still look for and interview for the "right" job. Best of luck to you!! Seatbelt

ChinMusic
12-13-2013, 11:04
I hope Malto chimes in. He seems to have found a nice balance of professional life and play.

q-tip
12-13-2013, 11:07
I might suggest that you take some time to create a Vision for your life. This is a process-take off the constraints and see what type of life you would love to have. Will it be reakistic, who knows, but if you do not have a vision, it is very hard to get up every day and know what the next right action is. This has worked for me, I am now writing thebook of a lifetime.

tauwillow
12-13-2013, 11:34
Consider taking on another adventure. Like the trail, Antarctica has its own vibrant and unique culture and working there is an incredible privilege. You likely will be able to use your EE skills, meet amazing people and hike some gorgeous trails!

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/antarctic-support-contract.html

4eyedbuzzard
12-13-2013, 11:46
... I am struggling hard to figure out what path I should take with life. You aren't alone.


But I have this fear that I will get another "professional" job and life will just be..."meh"...every day, and it is tough to imagine living like that again for the rest of my life. Life is hard.


I am almost looking forward to going to bed every night, just so I can get away and dream. Depression?

Pick an apropos historical quote - there are likely thousands, e.g.,
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." - Thoreau
"Man is born free, but he is everywhere in chains." - Rousseau

The reality is that most jobs are done by disillusioned people who would rather be doing something else.
In times past, you either got the barn and house up, crops harvested, livestock raised, chores done - or you died. We are soft compared to our ancestors. Modern life is just a kinder, gentler survival struggle - at least physically. You still at minimum have to EARN a roof over your head, food to put in your mouth, and at least some of modern society's trappings to be self-sufficient - that or become a leech either on family or society. Neither of those latter options represents any freedom either.

We all have to figure out our own way.

As moldy noted, there is military service. You have a technical degree, and you need some self-discipline. It might or might not work.
You could also consider industrial maintenance. There's always something new breaking down or needing electrical/mechanical attention.
Or find something else.
Welcome to the club called adulthood.

Nyte
12-13-2013, 12:02
This is probably not going to be the popular opinion, but whatever.

Too many people spend too much time working jobs they can't stand (making someone else(s) rich), for housing they don't use (and often don't like/want), to get stuff they don't need (or usually really want or like), to chase illusions of dreams that aren't theirs (fed to them by media), in a non sustainable life of mediocre dissatisfaction.

I'm not saying don't do something to support yourself. I am saying find a life to live. Do what you want and enjoy to support what you really want out of life. Stop existing (and aspiring to the expectations of others and society as a whole), and live your life for the only person it should matter to, yourself. Go find adventure, joy, success, failure, experience, travel, and LIFE.

You sound like you have already discovered that you don't want/need much for yourself. Also, you sound disillusioned with how society works, and the ongoing technological disregard of nature. Look into what you enjoy doing, that could support you, and your dreams. If you don't know what your dreams are, figure that out. That could mean trying things, day dreaming, researching options, and talking to others.

Figure out what kind of life is what makes you smile and want to get up in the morning, and go after it. Also, keep in mind, as you go through the journey of life, that definition can and probably will change, that is part of experience. Go with it, don't lock yourself into anything, you can't ever be sure your interests or needs won't change.

Those who don't support you in this, while not most likely trying to be against you, are afraid and conditioned by "tradition" and hype. Don't let them get you down, don't treat them ill, or even think ill of them. Though if they cannot be supportive enough to at least not put down your dreams and allow you the chance to live for you, consider dissociating from them.

Ironbelly
12-13-2013, 12:11
Hey Lighthouse, If your up for a move, I can easily get you a job here in CT. I work for Emerson Network Power/ Liebert Services and we are short staffed due to some people leaving and are actively hiring electrical engineers. If your interested and want more information shoot me a PM.

4eyedbuzzard
12-13-2013, 12:12
This is probably not going to be the popular opinion, but whatever.

Too many people spend too much time working jobs they can't stand (making someone else(s) rich), for housing they don't use (and often don't like/want), to get stuff they don't need (or usually really want or like), to chase illusions of dreams that aren't theirs (fed to them by media), in a non sustainable life of mediocre dissatisfaction.

I'm not saying don't do something to support yourself. I am saying find a life to live. Do what you want and enjoy to support what you really want out of life. Stop existing (and aspiring to the expectations of others and society as a whole), and live your life for the only person it should matter to, yourself. Go find adventure, joy, success, failure, experience, travel, and LIFE.

You sound like you have already discovered that you don't want/need much for yourself. Also, you sound disillusioned with how society works, and the ongoing technological disregard of nature. Look into what you enjoy doing, that could support you, and your dreams. If you don't know what your dreams are, figure that out. That could mean trying things, day dreaming, researching options, and talking to others.

Figure out what kind of life is what makes you smile and want to get up in the morning, and go after it. Also, keep in mind, as you go through the journey of life, that definition can and probably will change, that is part of experience. Go with it, don't lock yourself into anything, you can't ever be sure your interests or needs won't change.

Those who don't support you in this, while not most likely trying to be against you, are afraid and conditioned by "tradition" and hype. Don't let them get you down, don't treat them ill, or even think ill of them. Though if they cannot be supportive enough to at least not put down your dreams and allow you the chance to live for you, consider dissociating from them.
You make it sound so easy ;) But if it was, everybody would be doing it. I agree with your sentiments. But, it still ain't easy. Most of us are very aware of the trap society places in front of us - conform or become at least a bit of an outcast and live on the fringe. But life on the fringe isn't easy - or free - either. It is its own unique trap.

Mags
12-13-2013, 12:23
My good buddy is a chip designer. He picks up consulting jobs only.

He works his butt off 8-10 months. Then takes off 4-6 months (if not more). He does not thru-hike, but he'll spend a summer/fall or winter skiing, climbing, backpacking etc. In fact he spent a whole summer this past year in the Canadian Rockies mountaineering.

What does this mean? Perhaps you can work full time for now, get your skill set up to a desirable level and then do the same. Some short term pain (working to get your skill set up to snuff for next bit) for long term gain (having the flexibility AND the skill set to pick up consulting jobs).

And engineer who can code? Google how much a sr developer makes. If you are good, you can work a year, make bank, then pick up another contact when you are ready.

Has its own challenges but it can be much more viable path than the traditional hiker trash/ski bum/dirt bag climber/river rat life cycle of working a job, save money and then starting over again.

Starchild
12-13-2013, 12:43
I did the trail to change my life, and am following the path of doing what I love, and willing to have that definition stretch to new experiences and learning, regardless of the amount it pays, and I know I am on the right path to my life. After the AT I applied as a ski school instructor and got accepted. Pay is not great, but there are tips, and it's a great way to increase my skiing and perhaps snowboarding ability, as well as a great opportunity to get some updated equipment at a great discount. Teaching people in a outdoor environment really appeals to me, that was reinforced on the trail. I also like that it is temporary (seasonal), so there is a Katahdin, a end point. The work environment also seems just what I am looking for, totally non-formal, friendly, helpful and family like - just like the trail. And to add, just a a bit of assurance from the AT itself, the AT runs over that ski area and the ski area is in a AT community. So to me it's just a continuation of following the white blazes in life.

Good Luck

Astro
12-13-2013, 12:45
Since you asked for advice, here it is. As an EE you have valuable and marketable skills, and anything you will want to do in life requires some money. I would recommend looking for another job, but not in a 60-70 hour/week mental sweatshop. Yeah you may not spend your free time dreaming about Engineering things like some of your peers, but that is fine, it is just your job that enables you do the other things where your passion lies. And while you may not become an "All-Star Engineer", lots of companies need solid employees to just put in a quality 40 hours/week. Once you get that job, then keep your traveling cost light, saving as much as you can for future adventures. The mid-west (unless you want to live with your parents) may not be the best place for you. If you loved the AT perhaps somewhere along it or Colorado, or the west coast would be better. If you somehow get stuck in another one of those mental sweatshops, get out, just remember you were looking for a job when you went there.

I would also recommend getting a PM to Ironbelly if you have not already.
I wish you well!

Astro
12-13-2013, 12:53
My good buddy is a chip designer. He picks up consulting jobs only.

He works his butt off 8-10 months. Then takes off 4-6 months (if not more). He does not thru-hike, but he'll spend a summer/fall or winter skiing, climbing, backpacking etc. In fact he spent a whole summer this past year in the Canadian Rockies mountaineering.

What does this mean? Perhaps you can work full time for now, get your skill set up to a desirable level and then do the same. Some short term pain (working to get your skill set up to snuff for next bit) for long term gain (having the flexibility AND the skill set to pick up consulting jobs).

And engineer who can code? Google how much a sr developer makes. If you are good, you can work a year, make bank, then pick up another contact when you are ready.

Has its own challenges but it can be much more viable path than the traditional hiker trash/ski bum/dirt bag climber/river rat life cycle of working a job, save money and then starting over again.

Mags advice is also excellent. Contract work is usually higher pay and higher risk, and great flexibility (especially when the market is good). While I was describing the 40 hr/week, with balance as you go (time to play your guitar and hike a little), the work an intense X months and play for Y months is also another valid approach.

Feral Bill
12-13-2013, 12:53
You say you are not getting positive responses in your job search. I suspect your state of mind is reflected in your resume's and applications. It's time for you to see a mental health professional to sort that out. You are young, and if EE is not going to satisfy you as a carreer, you can make changes. Good luck.

And don't sweat the parents, they'll love you forever regardless.

yaduck9
12-13-2013, 12:54
Consider taking on another adventure. Like the trail, Antarctica has its own vibrant and unique culture and working there is an incredible privilege. You likely will be able to use your EE skills, meet amazing people and hike some gorgeous trails!

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/antarctic-support-contract.html


There is a good documentary http://www.amazon.com/Encounters-World-Ryan-Andrew-Evans/dp/B0037EAJA2/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1386951993&sr=8-4&keywords=werner+herzog
It may give you an idea of what goes on there. I found this at my local Library.



You, the OP, said that, your not like other engineers, in that your not always engrossed, with technical gadgets. You might want to read this book; http://www.amazon.com/Discover-What-Youre-Best-At/dp/0684839563/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386952628&sr=8-1&keywords=discover+what+your+best+at

You may be one of those folks that have broader talents besides just engineering.


Until then.......get a job in Field Engineering . You would be out and about, and be fairly independent. There are also positions where you could travel either in the US or through out the world.

Just some ideas, your the one who needs to figure out what floats your boat............

Nyte
12-13-2013, 12:57
You make it sound so easy ;) But if it was, everybody would be doing it. I agree with your sentiments. But, it still ain't easy. Most of us are very aware of the trap society places in front of us - conform or become at least a bit of an outcast and live on the fringe. But life on the fringe isn't easy - or free - either. It is its own unique trap.

Never said it would be easy, and as said elsewhere, life is hard. The hardest step is making the choice to go against conventional living. If living life is going to be hard, and you have to put in the effort to survive, why not do it in a way that fulfills your needs, desires, dreams, aspirations, and keeps you interested in living, rather than spend it hating life?

I look, for example, at my dad, who has done what he thinks he is supposed to his whole life. Every day he complains about whatever job he has, he complains about having to maintain his house, his vehicles, the tools to maintain his house... He takes vacations, and loathes coming back from them, always dreams about changing his life to sell off everything, have his motorcycle, an RV, and live travelling, doing what he has to only when he has to to pick up extra $$.

He crushes those dreams every time with sayings like, "You have to have a house to live in", or "It's just the way things are", and the ever tiresome "There isn't another way to live."

Figure out what supports your mental and emotional health as well as your physical needs, and go do it. No more living to fulfill the checkbooks of the rich and powerful. Go watch "Metropolis" and decide if you still like living in the worker's area.

yaduck9
12-13-2013, 13:16
just an idea;


http://www.peacecorps.gov/volunteer/learn/whatvol/busdev_01/itwork/


http://jobview.monster.com/Wind-Turbine-Technician-Job-Naalehu-HI-US-128492705.aspx?WT.mc_n=Indeed_US&from=indeed



2 jobs that would keep you far away from the "cubicle"
(http://jobview.monster.com/Wind-Turbine-Technician-Job-Naalehu-HI-US-128492705.aspx?WT.mc_n=Indeed_US&from=indeed)

Berserker
12-13-2013, 13:23
Hey man, fellow electrical engineer here. I found that for me anything I do 40 or more hours a week (as a job) starts to suck. That would include if any of my hobbies became a full time thing. It's just how I'm wired I guess. So for me a good work/life balance is the way to go, and is something to consider.

As for getting a job, you're young and have a highly sought after degree, so I would agree with the others above and tell you to get another job. Try something else in electrical engineering...if that doesn't work then get another EE job in something else...perform well...develop a name and/or niche for yourself...then you can do whatever you want. Also consider what Mags was talking about, and maybe look into contracting. Once you get established at being good at something you can probably get jobs pretty easily. This is a good way to make lots of money (i.e. to go on adventures and so that you don't become a burden on society), and still have a flexible schedule.

Also remember that you're young and your perception of things will change as you age. Life changing events (getting married, having kids, etc.) have a way of changing one's priorities.

Mags
12-13-2013, 14:20
Mags advice is also excellent. Contract work is usually higher pay and higher risk, and great flexibility (especially when the market is good). While I was describing the 40 hr/week, with balance as you go (time to play your guitar and hike a little), the work an intense X months and play for Y months is also another valid approach.

HE and his wife have no children. Helps that his wife is also in education and also has a lot of free time. The risk is mitigated with no children.

Again, has its challenges, but works for him.

Speaking of education, with your math skills and degree, may not be difficult to transition to education if that is a career you may be interested in. Less money, but a steady pay check with set time off that is ample.

grayfox
12-13-2013, 14:29
There is some very good advice above--I would like to add that while you are looking for that perfect job to come along, you could go over to your nearest old folk's home, or whatever, and apply to volunteer. It would put a real face on the future for you. There are some great YMCA's in Indy--try that if you can't take old folks. Just go do something to get out of the house for now. Time will help--just stay moving in some fashion for now.

12TH Man
12-13-2013, 14:38
First and foremost. Thank you to the WB staff for fixing log in problems.

Now to the OP ......................Are you nuts!
At your age I would have killed to have your credentials. Stop whining!
I graduated with a microbiology degree and no job prospects.
Worked offshore oil rigs around the world. Got laid off.
Joined Army and damn near got killed with parachute malfunction.
Hired as controller by the FAA. Worked IAD tower on 9/11.

Life is, and never will be perfect.

12TH Man
12-13-2013, 14:42
But I have had a lot of fun!!!!!

4eyedbuzzard
12-13-2013, 14:55
Lots of good advice here - contract work, field engineering (I did it for several years and liked the challenge and travel part), military, etc. But ultimately you simply are going to trade your precious time for money unless you hit the Powerball. Everybody from park rangers, climbing guides, professional poker players and rock stars do, and like everyone else even they work long hours sometimes and probably have parts of their profession they don't like. Such is life. You are young. Priorities often change - anyone with children can attest to this.

I hate to say it, but you will likely many times in life want to be doing something other than what you are doing. So, if you're going to have to trade your time for money, it doesn't hurt to look at a nice paycheck each week for doing it. To a great degree, money does buy a higher degree of freedom and allows you to pursue those other interests - take more and nicer vacations, etc.

slbirdnerd
12-13-2013, 15:26
Hey Lighthouse, If your up for a move, I can easily get you a job here in CT. I work for Emerson Network Power/ Liebert Services and we are short staffed due to some people leaving and are actively hiring electrical engineers. If your interested and want more information shoot me a PM.

This is awesome--what a great community! So, my advice, is at least look into this... Or, find something you love that you can live on and be happy... Or, you write really well--ever thought about that? Or, so all that. I'm 42 and I did what my mom and dad wanted. I have a solid career. I am SO bored. :)

Nuggz
12-13-2013, 15:35
Man... You sound exactly like myself. I'm hiking the trail in 2014 though. I've been a software engineer for 9 years. Like you, I don't code in my free time. I actually sit around and play guitar too. I wondered what it would be like for what I got finished and I think you are summing it up pretty good. I'm not sure if I want to return to this either. There are many things to do in life and many passions. Money isn't a passion. Trading time for dollars sucks. Get a job with one of the trail crews in the summer. You stay out on the trail doing maintenance for 7 days... become a back country ski patrol at a resort. Go back to school for something different. These are all ideas Im tossing around for when I'm done. Life is too short to spend 40 years doing one type of job. If you don't NEED the high paying electrical engineering job, go do something you want to do.

12TH Man
12-13-2013, 15:36
This is awesome--what a great community! So, my advice, is at least look into this... Or, find something you love that you can live on and be happy... Or, you write really well--ever thought about that? Or, so all that. I'm 42 and I did what my mom and dad wanted. I have a solid career. I am SO bored. :)
What????????????

Traffic Jam
12-13-2013, 16:06
I'm sorry about your sister. You've had a lot of emotional upheaval with her loss and hiking the AT. Two life-changing events in the past year...I'd be surprised if you weren't struggling emotionally right now. Talking to a professional counselor or psychologist would probably be beneficial.

BuckeyeBill
12-13-2013, 17:40
You may enjoy Hike Your Own Hike (http://www.amazon.com/Hike-Your-Own-Backpacking-WanderLearn-ebook/dp/B002MH4K00/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386970667&sr=8-1&keywords=frances+tapon) by Francis Tapon. It covers 7 life lessons that came from his hiking the AT.

MDSection12
12-13-2013, 17:54
I have no philosophical insight to give, but I'll point out that an electrical engineer who plays guitar can indeed make that a career. I know a few electrical engineers that build and repair pedals and amps. Maybe start learning about tube amps.

Braves#6
12-13-2013, 18:03
Find work in a sound/recording studio. Work both angles:engineering and studio musician. You'll be doubly valuable.

Night Train
12-13-2013, 19:20
I'm a third generation firefighter, my father and grandfather were both wildland firefighters, I took up being a career metro FF. The stories of adventure were never ending, the appreciation of people and planet were evident in how they lived and worked. Most importantly, they were simplistic men who truly lived free. You're a perfect candidate to do exactly that. BTW, pay and pension are pretty good too.

MuddyWaters
12-13-2013, 21:09
Nothing wrong with working a decent paying job while you sort things out.

It beats working a low paying job while you sort things out.

You can always change.

Malto
12-13-2013, 21:52
I hope Malto chimes in. He seems to have found a nice balance of professional life and play.

thanks Chin, I try.

Believe it or not you are in a great position. But first..... You are still going through a huge transition. It took a full year to get back to the new normal and I will never return to the prehike me. The biggest changes are my ambivalence to possessions, titles and status. This is a good thing. So use this time to sort through your life and find how to keep work from sucking. It is BS that you can't find a career that is enjoyable. I am also an engineer, mechanical and there are so many paths that your career could go. I have worked in automotive, electronics, and a long time in consumer products and food. I even started and ran a business for a couple of years. Today I lead an organization n a field completely unrelated to what I did earlier in my career. Net, a career is a series of adventures, if you chose, not just one continuous path. Find what you're good at and success, however you define it will come.

if I were in your shoes at your age, I would:
1) find a job in your field. you have a highly sought after and well paying major, use it. It is easy for folks to say chunk it and work a seasonal job. It makes little sense to do it with your earning potential.
2) find a job you like and/or where you like it. If you can get both great. I would be looking at somewhere like Colorado where I could hike every weekend if I chose. It's amazing how getting out in nature makes the work week more enjoyable.
3) be a tight wad. You can earn a lot, so save a lot. Do this for a while and you can retire at an early age.
4) look for a job that would allow a leave of absence. I did this for my thru and if the opportunity presents itself then I will hike the CDT to complete my triple crown. Often west coast companies are a bit more progressive on these matters but you may have to wait a few years to take advantage of that benefit.

you are fortunate because you likely learned an important lesson before you got caught up with spending to keep up with the Jones. I didn't learn it until I was 45 but fortunately I have a great career that I love and have lowered my overhead to maximize my savings to allow freedom to hike. So be patient, find balance between work and play. The better work is the easier the balance. Good luck.

prain4u
12-15-2013, 00:44
Few things in life are as emotionally "easy" as a long distance hike. To oversimplify things----Wake up. Break camp. Walk. Take care of bodily functions. Set up camp. Eat. Sleep. Repeat. If you like a spot--or want to rest--you simply stay someplace longer. There are no time clocks to punch, no rigid schedules to keep, no major bills to pay and no one telling you what to do. No one is telling you what you must wear. Heck, you don't even have to shower, shave or change your clothes for days at time if you don't want to. Not too much stress associated with such a lifestyle.

However, for most folks, such a lifestyle is not possible (except for very brief segments of their life). As much as we hate it, most of us have to do things like have a job (and have to endure things like bosses, schedules, stress, and monotony). It stinks--but it is a harsh reality for most people. Even those individuals who are suggesting that you hike more, ski more, contract your services (and work less often)--are still all pretty much saying that a J-O-B seems to be a necessary evil and something that most likely be in your future. In that respect, people (including myself) are agreeing with mom. Vacation is over--time to face reality.

HOWEVER, I do acknowledge that going back to the real world is hard. The real world can be frustrating, stressful, and depressing. Many of us daydream about running away--but we have "obligations"--so we suck it up and work our jobs. We might dislike most of it--but it is a necessary evil.

Part of the problem is also that you are age 25. The 20's can be a rough time of soul-searching, frustration, and indecision for many people--especially for many unmarried, college-educated, males. (The late 40s and early 50s are another one of those times). "Who am I--and what do i want to do with the rest of my life" are questions which torture the mind and soul of many people at those times in their lives.

I agree with those who have suggested that you MIGHT need some professional help in making the shift back to the real world. That does not mean you are crazy. You are just "stuck" and in need of a guide to help get you back on the pathway. I also agree with those who suggest that you try to find a job that gets you outdoors and/or hiking as much as possible.

Good luck with the transition. I am rooting for you. I have faith that you will find a good pathway.

faxanadu
12-20-2013, 01:35
Lighthouse,

I'm not sure if i bumped into you on the trail (Shake N Bake). But, i'm in the exact same situation as you. I didn't finish college (was in school for EE) but i made great money in the oil field doing exactly that (irony). Leaving that job for the trail was the hardest life decision ever. Once i finished the AT journey i had a plan in my head to travel around, work on some website/business ideas, etc. But, once i got home ... i've been getting pulled in all directions from people wanting me to:

Go back to school
Travel with them
Job offers
Ex girlfriends (lol)

The idea of being sucked back into my old life (long hours like you, stressed out all the time) is just so distasteful to me. Worse, i'm not sure why im struggling so hard to follow my own heart again. It brought me great joy on the trail ... and every day was amazing. I guess what holds me back is that my family will:

Think i'm a moocher or lazy
My plan might not go as expected

...There was something liberating on the trail when i just let go, enjoyed the moment, and followed the paths available to me... instead of trying to force things.

faxanadu
12-20-2013, 01:37
What's interesting is i had this documentary called "A Map for Saturday" where the guy backpacks around the world for a year. Everyone that he ran into and interviewed after had all the same sentiments as you described Lighthouse.

4eyedbuzzard
12-20-2013, 02:22
Things I've learned:
Vacations don't last forever.
It is definitely nice to just hike around or travel or __________ and not have to work for a living.
If one is retired, independently wealthy, trust fund kid, etc., all the above would seem just one of many options.
Most people, however, will have to earn a living somehow to obtain housing, food, etc.
Finding something one enjoys (or at least doesn't hate) AND something that pays well can make the "drudgery" of earning a living more enjoyable.
Such is life.

Nyte
12-20-2013, 10:41
I guess what holds me back is that my family will:

Think i'm a moocher or lazy
My plan might not go as expected

...There was something liberating on the trail when i just let go, enjoyed the moment, and followed the paths available to me... instead of trying to force things.

Spending time worrying about what others think of you keeps you from spending that time living life for you. Do you want to live your life, or the life they expect you to live? While I am certain they care, and are speaking to what they think is what is best for you, they are not you. They cannot know your feelings and thoughts, dreams, and desires as you do. They are also, as most are, coming from an opinion that since the world generally works this way (something people have been deluded into to provide for those holding the strings), that it is the way things must be, the only way. WRONG!

You just did it, you took 6 months off from that world, and made it work. Yes, you have to find a way to interact with that world, to be able to obtain what you need, but it can be on your terms, not someone else's.

Plans never survive long in the real world. Everything in reality is fluid, changing, influenced by millions of factors that are in turn influenced by... well you get it. Have a path, be ready for it to change, and to adapt to what comes. Like you did on the trail. Live your life, every minute, to bring to you what makes you smile, what drives you to want to get up and go on.

bdavis
12-20-2013, 11:22
hey.just breathe first of all..second im in indy too! i am planning my first thru hike leaveing march1.i would love to sit down with you and here your stories and advice.and maybe it will help to talk about everything else too.sometimes hearing yourself say things out loud gives you a great persecptive on things.let me know if you are comfortable doing so,im usually hangin at twenty taps..life is about courage and going into the unknown.the fact that you are questioning everything is good.most people dont.

LAF
12-20-2013, 13:23
This is probably not going to be the popular opinion, but whatever.

Too many people spend too much time working jobs they can't stand (making someone else(s) rich), for housing they don't use (and often don't like/want), to get stuff they don't need (or usually really want or like), to chase illusions of dreams that aren't theirs (fed to them by media), in a non sustainable life of mediocre dissatisfaction.

I'm not saying don't do something to support yourself. I am saying find a life to live. Do what you want and enjoy to support what you really want out of life. Stop existing (and aspiring to the expectations of others and society as a whole), and live your life for the only person it should matter to, yourself. Go find adventure, joy, success, failure, experience, travel, and LIFE.

You sound like you have already discovered that you don't want/need much for yourself. Also, you sound disillusioned with how society works, and the ongoing technological disregard of nature. Look into what you enjoy doing, that could support you, and your dreams. If you don't know what your dreams are, figure that out. That could mean trying things, day dreaming, researching options, and talking to others.

Figure out what kind of life is what makes you smile and want to get up in the morning, and go after it. Also, keep in mind, as you go through the journey of life, that definition can and probably will change, that is part of experience. Go with it, don't lock yourself into anything, you can't ever be sure your interests or needs won't change.

Those who don't support you in this, while not most likely trying to be against you, are afraid and conditioned by "tradition" and hype. Don't let them get you down, don't treat them ill, or even think ill of them. Though if they cannot be supportive enough to at least not put down your dreams and allow you the chance to live for you, consider dissociating from them.

+1 on that, well said; and I may take some heat here as well....
I spent many years conforming to what others wanted me to do and was miserable. I made good money, lived in a nice house, did all the things "you're supposed to do in our society", etc. I finally got the nerve to make a change, to do something I love and not what others aspired me to do. I tossed my career as a global IT manager in the pharmaceutical business out the window and walked away from the "normal" lifestyle, gave many things to charity and moved to the caribbean to be a dive instructor and guide. The amount of money earned is small, but my life is so much happier. And, I get to take time off to do things like hike the AT, climb Denali, visit the Adirondacks for some ice climbing, whatever floats my boat. Again, its not much in the way of a retirement fund and only my higher power knows if I'll need that. I do believe that when you listen to your heart, listen to what the world and the universe is telling you, your higher power will take care of you. And when you don't, unhappiness is the result. Unfortunately money is needed in this world so one needs to find income somehow. I do plan on moving back to the US in the next years and establishing (re-establishing) my luthier business; specifically custom hand built acoustics (my other passion) that I did part time while still in the corporate world, it was what kept me sane :). These I mention just as examples for you; you can make changes and live your own life just like you hike your own hike. Have you considered finding employment somewhere in the music world, or in the outdoor world (working for an outfitter for example) and putting the skill set you have to work in those realms. There are ways to do it, just think outside the box. The AT should have prepared you to do that :)

faxanadu
12-20-2013, 17:17
+1 on that, well said; and I may take some heat here as well....
I spent many years conforming to what others wanted me to do and was miserable. I made good money, lived in a nice house, did all the things "you're supposed to do in our society", etc. I finally got the nerve to make a change, to do something I love and not what others aspired me to do. I tossed my career as a global IT manager in the pharmaceutical business out the window and walked away from the "normal" lifestyle, gave many things to charity and moved to the caribbean to be a dive instructor and guide. The amount of money earned is small, but my life is so much happier. And, I get to take time off to do things like hike the AT, climb Denali, visit the Adirondacks for some ice climbing, whatever floats my boat. Again, its not much in the way of a retirement fund and only my higher power knows if I'll need that. I do believe that when you listen to your heart, listen to what the world and the universe is telling you, your higher power will take care of you. And when you don't, unhappiness is the result. Unfortunately money is needed in this world so one needs to find income somehow. I do plan on moving back to the US in the next years and establishing (re-establishing) my luthier business; specifically custom hand built acoustics (my other passion) that I did part time while still in the corporate world, it was what kept me sane :). These I mention just as examples for you; you can make changes and live your own life just like you hike your own hike. Have you considered finding employment somewhere in the music world, or in the outdoor world (working for an outfitter for example) and putting the skill set you have to work in those realms. There are ways to do it, just think outside the box. The AT should have prepared you to do that :)

This inspires me to look into some kind of technical support job for one of the companies that does guided ascents up Everest, McKinley, etc.

Popnfrsh24
01-09-2014, 22:10
Thanks for all of the input guys, it does mean a lot to me. I have reread through all of your posts multiple times.

Well, things have been up and down since my first post. I am still trying to piece everything together. I have thought a lot more about what is going to happen with my life, and I was wondering what you all think about it.

So I was still in a "funk" not sure what to do, until I woke up the day after Christmas, and it somehow it was SUPER CLEAR to me....I need to move to Colorado. I just think I am missing the mountains too much, and I have heard such great things about colorado. It also helps that many thru hikers have moved there, and they all have real positive things to say about it. I don't know how or why this happened, but it was just so clear to me when I woke up that day that I should move to denver. Like, I KNEW that I needed to do that. I know people say "follow your heart", and that is what I did with the trail. And I feel like when I was talking to my family about moving to Colorado, I could feel my heart pumping harder and I could "feel" the blood rushing through my veins as I talked about it. Has anyone ever else felt this phenomenon? I guess this is what it means by "follow your heart"?

So, I have started to pursue jobs in the Denver area. I have got a list of companies from the Denver chamber of commerce, and I am going to start to email/call companies to see if they need some work. I am hoping for another engineering job, so that way I can make enough money to live on my own, but Im really open for any type of position.

So, it has been clear and I was feeling great about my decision, but the past few days, I guess "fear" and doubts have come back again to haunt me. Thoughts like this...

What if the new job I land sucks, and now I am hundreds of miles away from anyone I know?
What if they work me to the bone again like my last employer?
Can I really stand being in front of a computer screen all day, if that is what my job entails?
Will I make friends in a town where I know nobody?
How alone will I feel?
What do I do about housing? Will I need to find a roommate? What if I get a crappy roommate?
How can I fit a 40 hr workweek, while buying groceries and cooking and paying bills!? (I realize everyone else on the world does this, and idk it still feels like a daunting task)
Will I be fine not seeing my family for months at a time?? I mean, I was fine for the 5 months I was on the trail, but I never really wanted to see them since I was on vacation the whole time!
How much will I miss seeing my niece every week?

I have had a lump in my throat that has lasted for the past few days. It is almost like the same feeling I had when I left for college (which was only 1.5 hrs away from my hometown jeez! im a baby). And I am already starting to feel this even though I haven't even sent out my RESUME to companies YET!

I think it mostly boils down to that I am scared I will feel the same feelings when I had my first job. I was overworked, no real sense of direction from coworkers, and when I did get to go back home in Chicago, I knew nobody and I felt pretty much alone. Life was definitely not satisfying, and I was basically just going through the motions every day. As stupid as this sounds, I almost feel like my first professional job was almost like an abusive relationship, where I was taken advantage of a lot, and now I am scared that it will happen all over again.

I don't know what caused all this negative thinking to happen, but I know that here in Indiana we just got hit with a HUGE snow storm, and snow is everywhere. I have found that most winters, I do get depressed for a while. Maybe it is just the snow and weather is causing the blues, and as soon as the snow melts I will feel better? I did notice that as soon as the snow melted from our last winter storm, I instantly felt better. Very strange how weather can affect you like that. Maybe it affects us thru hikers even more since we have had so much exposure to the outdoors already!

I realize that probably some of you are like "*** this dude is a PANSY", and whatever, maybe I am. I know that I just think a LOT about "big" decisions, and this is definitely a BIG one for me. I think it is much bigger than any other choice I have made in my life so far. So I would really appreciate thoughts and suggestions if you guys have any.

thanks,

Lighthouse.

LAF
01-09-2014, 22:20
just a short 2 cents: you have to look inside, to you, for what makes you happy....changing locations, changing jobs, etc is usually only a temporary cure. and as for the "what ifs".... what happens "if you don't....." Answer is we never know the answer because whatever path we choose, we can never go back and find out what "would have happened if we turned left instead of right" doesn't work that way. we make our best decision and move forward and learn, and making mistakes is part of life, part of learning

ams212001
01-09-2014, 22:36
I am not an expert backpacker but I do feel that I am quite knowledgeable in moving to parts of the country just because I can. Some basic things that I always try and do to help make sure any random move I make is going to go smoothly.

1. Look at all your bills and try and save up 4-6 months worth (just like on trail). I always like to have a buffer while I look for work or get settled into a new job. I find it is a bit harder to get jobs while you are in another state. Most companies are weary of applicants who are not in the area because they can not guarantee the person will actually show up. Higher entry jobs are a bit different and can be more willing to accept out of state applicants.

2. I try and find places were I can rent a room. While getting to know the area. Housing is daunting no matter where you look. Yes, you may find a roommate you hate, but as long as you don't sign a contract you wont be locked into staying with them. Look into college areas on craigslist because you will find more flexibility in housing options with short term housing contracts/deposits. Try and save up 4-6 months rent. Not an easy task but worth it so you can enjoy the new area you move to.

3. Think outside the box for jobs. I have a degree in psychology and have worked in mental health for years. My favorite jobs tend to be restaurant work. People are interesting, ok pay, people are constantly quitting making it easy to get extra hours, less responsibility, more fun, get to know the locals. I try and always have 2 jobs in case I hate one and need to float on one income. I like jobs were I stay active and little responsibility ie not a manager.

Bottom line is you have way more control over your existence than you think. There are definitely sacrifices and concerns when moving to an entirely new area and it is not easy. I am 27 and have lived in Washington, Maryland, California, back to Maryland, and now North Dakota. I love to move and travel and I do so by being responsibile and knowing my capabilities before hand. With some basic forthought and patience you can move easily. I would suggest working as much as possible now at ANY job and start saving. If you still want to move than move. If you don't than stay and figure out what you want to do with the money you saved.

PM with any more questions! You hit on a travel topic that I love!

Blissful
01-09-2014, 22:50
You're young with a lot ahead of you. If this is what you want to , go for it. Some natural apprehension is normal. Just go with the flow.

Meriadoc
01-09-2014, 23:11
. . .
I know that I just think a LOT about "big" decisions, and this is definitely a BIG one for me. I think it is much bigger than any other choice I have made in my life so far. So I would really appreciate thoughts and suggestions if you guys have any.

thanks,

Lighthouse.

You have a lot going on there Lighthouse! And that's okay. It's okay to feel overwhelmed. It's okay to be afraid. But feel it and then let it go. Push or brush it aside and do what feels right. Do your due diligence and then go for it! Thinking about it is a lot more painful than actually doing it.

I feel a bit like I am talking with my younger self. (I'm 28.) I too am an engineer. Ex-engineer. After college at home in NJ I left for Colorado for law school. That didn't work out too well. I didn't know what I was getting into, became very disenchanted with the entire legal system, and sank into depression.

I ended up heading back to the east coast for an engineering position. It was an okay job. Parts were absolutely atrocious. I was not happy. But I was depressed and too low to do anything about it.

Until, that is, I dreamt of the AT. The next year sped by. I hiked the AT and knew I was not going back into the same type of job. After the AT it took some time (and all of my savings) but I took the exams and prepared to embark on a teaching career. I am now living in Maine, teaching. I love it to the core of my being.

So, takeaways:
(1) The only way you know if something fits is to try it on. Go ahead and try stuff. It's okay to fail. If you fail to find the perfect fit you will just pick up and try again.

(2) Build a support system. My best friend (AT hiking partner) moved to Maine with me. She's an hour away but close enough for support. We talk a lot on the phone and the bimonthly hugs are great :sun This time around has been so much incredibly easier. (I am also older, stronger, and wiser than when I went to law school so that may have something to do with it.) If you know good people in the Denver area, see if you can move nearby. Thru hikers are particularly good because you will speak the same language.

(3) If you like engineering but didn't like that particular job, look for a better job. I find the relationship with my boss is the most important relationship. If you don't like engineering and don't want to stick it out for the payday, find something that inspires you. Try stuff.

(4) Acknowledge that change takes time. It took me from November 2013 to March 2013 for me to figure out what I wanted to try next. I had several false starts along the way. It eventually took off in July. In the beginning of August I found the teaching job I have now.

(5) Use the lessons from the trail to help you keep an even keel while you navigate the world. I like to say that thru hiking is like a crash course in living. It strips away all the distractions and hard decisions leaving us with the pulsating quick of life. Off the trail it's harder to keep the same mindset. But you have the skill set. Roll with the punches! (Example: my teaching job ends next week. I have no idea what I am doing next although I hope it is in education and it would be awesome if it was outdoors. I'm looking and applying and putting my name out there but not fretting too much about it. I will do my best and deal with what comes.)

MuddyWaters
01-10-2014, 00:12
Last summer, my 18 yr old daughter was laying in bed in her bedroom at home and crying. She had offers in hand from half a dozen colleges around the country to play softball for them, and she didnt know what to do. She wanted her mom or me to tell her what to do, I said "Not a chance. Its time to grow up".

But I did tell her four things things:

1. There arent any "wrong" choices, only "different" choices.
2. Staying here in this bed isnt one of them.
3. There are many people out there that would love to be in your position
4. Nothings permanent, if you dont like the way a choice plays out, you can always change.

In the end, she went with her gut instinct, and is happy as can be.

Dogwood
01-10-2014, 01:01
If I'm hearing you right it sounds like you're saying you just completed an AT thru-hike(YEAH!), are 26(YEAH!), have family that love you(DOUBLE YEAH!), and have a B.S. in EE(YEAH!). Some retransitioning time after a 6 month thru-hike is typical. EE degrees are some of the most in demand degrees there are. I quit in my 4th yr of Civil Engineering at NJIT to pursue degrees in Mathematics, Landscape Architecture, and Horticultural. With a B.S. in EE SO MANY WIDE RANGING types of related careers are available to you. Keep pinging at the job market. You will find something. As for the rest you're sitting pretty. Find the path that is right for you but don't discount the wisdom others older than you, INCLUDING YOUR PARENTS, can offer. They can seem annoying as heck when they say things like your Mom said but when I think back on all the things my parents told me and I didn't heed, because I thought I always knew better, I realize more and more often now they were more right than I ever gave them credit for at the time when they gave me the advice.

MDSection12
01-10-2014, 01:10
Just thought I'd say; I visited the CO Rockies two years ago and it's been my mission to move to Denver since. My wife isn't opposed if things work out, and I think I've got a plan to make it happen.

I guess my point is just that Denver does have that effect on people.

Mags
01-10-2014, 01:53
Colorado has a great outdoor scene (gee! :) ) and a booming high tech job market. It is not perfect but is pretty darn good!

I moved to CO one year to the day after I completed the AT. I was 25 yo, and did not know anyone. It all worked out rather well.

Shoot me a pm when you get into town. I'll buy you a beer. :)

Miner
01-10-2014, 02:34
When you say that your last job was your only job, how many years of experience do you have> After you have a certain number of years under your belt as a working engineer, you tend to be in higher demand; at least until you start to get much older and expensive. I'm a EE with about 20 years experience. I started off doing digital design and ended up transitioning to doing embedded software programming which requires some hardware knowledge. I went back for a MSEE later studying DSP and Digital Comm. Theory which helped with demand in some industries. In recent years I've also started working with FPGAs using VHDL and Verilog which is an area of growing demand. As an engineer, you constantly have to keep learning new skills to remain relevant and employable.

After thru-hiking the PCT in 2009 and turning 40. I started to work as a consultant. I work for a few years and then tell my current client company that I'm going on vacation for a few months. Sometimes they even offer me another contract when I get back if they really liked my work. Contracting doesn't work so much for someone without a lot of experience though.

I see from your info that you live in Indianapolis. While there are jobs there, there are different regions with much higher demand. If you really want to make it easy to get a job, be open to relocating even if it means leaving your family and friends. Do some research on areas with good job demand that you wouldn't mind living there. I say this from experience, trying to force yourself to stick to just one region (outside of the very overpriced Silicon Valley in California), can make it tougher to find a job when your unemployed. For some reason, its always easier to find a new job when you are working then when you are unemployed. I've done the 60hr workweek, but most jobs I've have only required 40-48hrs on average.

Second Hand
01-10-2014, 22:23
Some thoughts:
1.) Go to Colorado. You are young and you only live once. If you go and it doesn't work out, then you move back home. If you never go you'll always wonder how life could have been different.
2.) When I was your age (I'm 31, so only 5 years ago). I looked at work as necessary for me to go on adventures. I worked in retail for years and was even a manager at Best Buy during college. Not because I loved technology, but because I made a good amount of $ at 22 and I was able to travel. I left best buy and spent 2 months backpacking Europe. I came back, got another job there and managed to take 6 different drives cross country, down through Mexico, into Canada, backpacking and camping in almost all the National Parks....

I don't think anyone really likes their jobs. If you do, your lucky. Putting up w/ bad jobs and way to many black Fridays allowed me to see the world and have a ton of great adventures..
Today my adventures have changed, but I still view work as a necessary evil that I endure to live the way I want to. Today I crunch #s for an insurance company and my new adventure is raising a 1 year old w/ my beautiful wife (while packing in a few hundred trail miles per year).

Even though you hated working 60 hours a week before, it did afford you the opportunity to walk in the woods for 5 months. Maybe you do it for 18 months, then take on the PCT.

Good luck and enjoy the mountains in Colorado!! they are amazing!

Statue
01-10-2014, 22:54
Hey Lighthouse, Statue here. Your last journal entry in the ranger station at Katahdin made me cry. Go to Colorado, I have spent a good amount of time all over the state, have many friends out there and they all love it. Save of up some cash and come hike the PCT in '15. Spitfire, Rambo, Browntown and I will be out there!

fiddlehead
01-11-2014, 04:51
My advice: Don't stay where you don't seem to fit in.
Start a new job, or company, or play your guitar enough to get where you can play in a band.
Life is priorities.
Hiking the AT was my first step into my new adventurous life.
A lot of life's lessons are learned on that first thru-hike.

Miner
01-11-2014, 15:51
I also would like to mention that I know a lot of electrical engineers who play guitars or drums. Some play for their church and others play in their own bands. Some studies have identified that the same part of your brain is used for math and music so there is a connection. The reason many engineers play with electronics or software in our own time is because we are trying to improve our skills to stay employable as technology changes or because we want to invent something one day and be our own boss and not just a "resource" at a company. Go play your guitar and be happy. Many other engineers do. The guy who sits next to me at work spends all his free time surfing. To each their own.

Dogwood
01-11-2014, 16:45
Popnfrshey, after all your commentary here it might be time to consider Colorado Rob's comment on Pedaling Fool's 'What's the healthiest thing you can do thread?' - "Lots of sex, hiking, red wine and chocolate. I'm not kidding." Throw some Viagra in there as well. Enjoy. Clear the air. Regroup. Move forward.

Dogwood
01-11-2014, 17:07
This is for you Lighthouse, or anyone else, that's needing it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utxIz26mQqg AND http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWoQL0W4neM

English Stu
01-11-2014, 17:24
If you have no responsiblities or are retired; do what you like and like what you do

Meriadoc
01-11-2014, 17:44
This is for you Lighthouse, or anyone else, that's needing it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utxIz26mQqg AND http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWoQL0W4neM

Two thumbs up!

Dogwood
01-11-2014, 19:22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWptXUblA4E

When life is too much, roll with it, baby

Don`t stop and lose your touch, oh no, baby

Hard times knocking on your door, I`ll tell them you ain`t there no more

Get on through it, roll with it, baby

Luck`ll come and then slip away, you`ve gotta move, bring it back to stay

You just roll with it, baby, come on and just roll with it, baby

You and me, roll with it, baby, hang on and just roll with it, baby

The way that you love is good as money

I swear by stars above, sweet as honey

People think you`re down and out, you show them what it`s all about

You can make it, roll with it, baby

When this world turns its back on you, hang in and do that sweet thing you do

You just roll with it, baby, you just roll with it, baby

Come on and just roll with it, baby, you and me, just roll with it, baby

Now there`ll be a day you`ll get there, baby, you`ll hear the music play, you`ll dance, baby

You`ll leave bad times way behind, nothing but good times on your mind

You can do it, roll with it, baby

Then you`ll see life will be so nice, it`s just a step up to paradise

You just roll with it, baby, you just roll with it, baby

You and me, just roll with it, baby, Come on and just roll with it, baby

gollwoods
01-12-2014, 18:19
since you are in indy have you tried the kokomo auto plants. many benefits, engineers are UAW for good or bad

http://www.chryslercareers.com/Pages/default.aspx

Popnfrsh24
01-29-2014, 10:20
Hey guys,

Lighthouse here again, and things are looking better for me! Although, now I have a very tough decision to make again!

Well, I have found some jobs! I found an engineering job here in Indianapolis, as well as in Denver!! I was super impressed with the company in Indianapolis (small company, only 8 people, excellent pay and benefits). But alas, it is in Indy, and it is where I grew up all my life.

I really wanted to get out of Indy and go to some place more "exciting" and I flew out to Denver for an interview to do basically the exact same work as the indy job. I absolutely loved it out there, and the company seemed good while I was out there. He was impressed with me, and asked me what it would take money wise for me to move out there. I said around 60,000 and he seemed like it wouldnt be a problem, so I was super stoked. It looked like I was dead set on Denver.

Well, he came back with an offer on Monday, and it was low (at least for me). Starting out at 49,900 and then possibly move up to 52,000 after 90 days. Still not terrible money, but the indy job is offering me 62,000 PLUS its cheaper to live in Indy! The benefits with the Indy job beat out the Denver job in every aspect too.

I feel like the trail has proven to me that money isn't too important to me, but I do feel like I am of great value to a company, and I can't help but feel that the Denver company is under selling me. He initally explained that he couldnt get me at a higher rate because of the "politics involved" in the company, and that also raised some red flags for me. One of the biggest things that the Denver company wants me to do is sign a 2 year non-compete agreement, which I am really really not wanting to do. I am young and intelligent, and I have to wonder why there is a 2 year non compete agreement in place. They said they won't waiver on the non-compete, but I am wondering if they are bluffing.

I mean, the Indy job sounds great, and the work sounds real good, and the people that I would work with sound pretty dang awesome. But, alas it is in Indy, which is the city that I have wanted to get out for so long. Granted, maybe things might change if I live in downtown indy so that it is a little more exciting, but still I just am unsure about staying put here.

On the other side, I would love to be in such a kickass city such as denver, but I am starting to get bad vibes from the company. They are coming back to renegotiate with me, and see if they can get me closer to my desired salary, but I really just don't feel good about this non-compete. The dude explained that the non-compete was really there for the "bad apples" who have worked there in the past and then switched to a direct competitor, but still I don't know if I am buying it. He said that they have waived the non-competes with other employees in the past, and he could give me a name of a dude who they totally waived his non compete in order to work for a direct competitor. but still, i just don't see the point!

I know i should feel awesome about having 2 job offers, but I am really stressing out on which route I should take! I loved denver when I was out there....it seems like the place where i want to end up. But, the company here in indy also seems super sweet. I need to make a decision by this Friday. ARGH I don't know what to do! Any of you seasoned job workers have some good feedback for a youngin like me!? I'd much appreciate it!!!

Thanks!

Coffee
01-29-2014, 10:36
How open were you regarding your reasons for wanting to move to Denver? The reason I ask is that if they realize that you are into outdoor activities and really want to be near the mountains, they could be using that information as leverage to negotiate a lower salary. I'm not advocating being dishonest in any way but I've found that in this type of situation it is often better to keep detailed personal information to a minimum. Just a thought since you seem pretty open about things here. That can sometimes backfire.

One big red flag that you mentioned is that the potential employer was willing to give you a name of someone who waived his non-compete in order to work for a competitor. Well, revealing the name of a former employee who "screwed over" the company is a pretty big ethical lapse in my opinion. That would enter into my thinking about whether I'd want to work for someone who would release that kind of information to others.

Southeast
01-29-2014, 10:42
Why limit yourself to these two choices? If Denver has other companies that compete with the one interested in you, figure out who they are.

Marta
01-29-2014, 10:46
My crystal ball tells me that if you choose the job in Indy, you'll be in Indy for many, many years. If you choose the job in Denver, you'll be wandering around for a long time, probably changing jobs and probably moving from city to city in the process. Your choice. Close your eyes and project yourself twenty years ahead. If you're in Indy, would you feel loved and happy, or smothered? If you're in some unknown place surrounded by people you have yet to meet, are you scared and alone, or excited and alive?

Popnfrsh24
01-29-2014, 10:47
How open were you regarding your reasons for wanting to move to Denver? The reason I ask is that if they realize that you are into outdoor activities and really want to be near the mountains, they could be using that information as leverage to negotiate a lower salary. I'm not advocating being dishonest in any way but I've found that in this type of situation it is often better to keep detailed personal information to a minimum. Just a thought since you seem pretty open about things here. That can sometimes backfire.

One big red flag that you mentioned is that the potential employer was willing to give you a name of someone who waived his non-compete in order to work for a competitor. Well, revealing the name of a former employee who "screwed over" the company is a pretty big ethical lapse in my opinion. That would enter into my thinking about whether I'd want to work for someone who would release that kind of information to others.

Yep, I realized that was probably a big minus for me. I was very open about "man I love it here! The mountains are great!!! I can't wait to go hike blah blah blah!" and yeah I think he is lowballing me on the fact that he was hoping I would love the area so much that I would just jump on it.....man I guess I wish I wasn't so excited when I went in for my interview!! And apparently, that dude didn't "screw over" the company, he had a good relationship with the company and his family moved to a place where a direct competitor was, so they waived his non compete. I don't know though. Sounds fishy to me.

Popnfrsh24
01-29-2014, 10:52
My crystal ball tells me that if you choose the job in Indy, you'll be in Indy for many, many years. If you choose the job in Denver, you'll be wandering around for a long time, probably changing jobs and probably moving from city to city in the process. Your choice. Close your eyes and project yourself twenty years ahead. If you're in Indy, would you feel loved and happy, or smothered? If you're in some unknown place surrounded by people you have yet to meet, are you scared and alone, or excited and alive?

I don't see myself in indy for the long haul, but who knows. I mean this company just seems so friendly and nice here in indy. Family and niece is here so that is great. But a new city also sounds very appealing. I just know that the type of work I do will directly relate to a large amount of my happiness. Looks like the company here in Indy will make me happy, but the location not so much. The mountains and terrain excite me, but the job and the way they are handling things is making me feel uneasy, which is not a good start.

Conure
01-29-2014, 11:21
Popnfrsh24, it's easier said than done (i.e., is takes lots of courage in today's age) but my advice, for whatever it's worth is this:

Life is so short, but you don't really understand that until later in life, so, follow your passion. Even if you fail, it is better to reach life's end knowing you followed your heart and gave it everything you could then to regret not having attempted it at all. Sure, this may all sound quite trite, but just start asking the elders around you; I bet they'll give you much of the same advice.

This is what I'm hearing from you: I don't like my chosen career, I don't have any passion for what I was trained to do, I don't want to work a job I dislike for the next 30 years, I don't want to disappoint others...no, no, no my friend. It's your life, your decisions and, later, your regrets.

If you haven't the responsibilities of taking care of a family, then you have the freedom to do as you will. Follow the passion and don't lose hold of your dreams. Go get a drop in a music store selling guitars, teaching guitar...go perform in some local open mike shows...any dream can become a reality, it all depends on the effort, dedication and sacrifice you are willing to make. Use the AT as a microcosm to your life path...hardships, mistakes and uncontrollable conditions are everywhere, but that's also where the growth and personal strength develop. Imagine yourself putting all the effort you put in electric engineering into you guitar...the hours of university study, the 50-60 hour work weeks at you last job...we don't become capable of anything without putting in the time to do so. Like you said, all the engineers you know get off work and then go home and tinker...that's passion!

MuddyWaters
01-29-2014, 11:26
Its not that unusual for companies to want you to sign a non-compete agreement.

But there are a few issues with it.

1) you are forced to sign it under duress, no agreement, no employment (that you desperately need as a unemployed person)
2) you have a right to earn a living in a free market once you leave that employer

In effect, they are mostly a scare tactic, and are virtually impossible to enforce anyway.

If you are a small company research chemist working on a new cancer drug, and only 2 other small companies are working on it, and thats all they do, well you might be screwed. If you are an electrical engineer working for Texas Instruments, and want to go work for Johnson Controls, you have nothing to worry about. Tell they where they can go.



From somewhere on the web:

The most litigated issue in employment contracts is the legality of so-called "restrictive covenant" provisions, such as a non-compete clause which bars an ex-employee from going to work for a competitor. Courts are often reluctant to enforce these restrictive covenants if they impose an unreasonable hardship on the ex-employee. They are strictly scrutinized as to their "reasonableness" in light of the facts and circumstances presented in each case. A company considering the use of non-compete agreements should keep the following points in mind:



Whether a non-compete is legally enforceable will be determined by state law.
Generally the law of the state where the employee is located will apply. A contractual agreement as to which state law applies may be ineffective.
Non-competes have to be reasonable to be enforceable. Reasonableness is determined by the courts based on the specific facts in each case. Primary attention is given by the courts to:

the geographic scope of the non-compete,
the duration of the non-compete, and
the type of activity the ex-employee is precluded from engaging in.


Non-competes are more likely to be upheld if the geographic scope is smaller, the duration is shorter and the type of activity is narrower (e.g., sales position only, versus working for a competitor in any capacity). They are also more likely to be upheld if the employee is only prohibited from soliciting the employer's established customers.
Many states will void an unreasonable restriction rather than modify it. For example, if a two-year duration is specified, and the court considers this duration unreasonably long, the court may nullify the restriction entirely rather than upholding it for a shorter duration.
The employee should realize what he or she is agreeing to and receive a benefit in return. This may be initial employment if the non-compete is agreed to at time of hire, or an additional payment to an existing employee for the non-compete.

Mags
01-29-2014, 12:12
You are getting low balled. An experienced desktop support IT guy typically starts at ~50k/yr in corporate IT in the Denver metro area. A SysAdmin even more. You are an engineer with more education (probably) and the original salary is about right for someone out of college (more or less). I suspect, to put it bluntly, the finance/HR departments picked up on the enthusiasm and are taking advantage of the fact to screw you over.

BUT, as Marta said, I have a feeling if you take the Indy job, you will stay in Indy.

When I finished the AT, I was in as similar position to you in terms of age and life choices. I could have stayed in RI, good chance of going back to my old place of employment at the hospital and working an IT job.

There is an alternative version of me still in Rhode Island who went back to his old life post-AT. He has a "good job" in IT at the hospital where he started part time, in the the kitchen, at 16. Probably married a nurse he knew who also had been there since she was 16. They have a ranch-style house in Warwick, RI and two or three children. Almost every Sunday, he goes to Grandma Mags house where she dotes on her grandchildren.

Occasionally this alternate version of Paul wonders what would have had happened if he moved to Colorado like he thought of? His good friend Tim, known since they were in Catholic school, told him he should just do it...but Paul played it safe. Paul, overall, likes his life. Loves his kids, his money goes far in the depressed economy of RI. Loves being around his cousins and seeing there and his young children playing together just like when he when and his cousins were little.

But he often thinks of his time on the AT. Wonders if he can sneak in a weekend backpack to NH this summer? He hasn't been in three years. Too busy with his young family. And the wife works weekends and holidays a lot in her nursing job. He saw a documentary on Glacier National Park on PBS and thinks how beautiful it would be to go there. Maybe take the family next summer?


So my advice: Take the Denver job. The salary is lower. The cost of living is higher. But once you are out there, you'll gain experience and get a better job eventually. And you will be be outside as much as you can. You'll discover the canyon country of Utah. Learn to backcountry ski in the fresh powder. Discover the best stuff is off-trail.

The alternate version of my life is not terrible and is rather nice in many ways . But it is life I find hard to imagine now. It easily could have happened.
Reading between the lines, looks like you have a close knit family as well with strong roots in your home area. (Same as me :) )

Time has a funny way of slipping.

Go with what your heart says. 50k/yr is not exactly pauper wages. And could lead to a next, wonderful and fulfilling step in your life.

Berserker
01-29-2014, 13:32
Well, he came back with an offer on Monday, and it was low (at least for me). Starting out at 49,900 and then possibly move up to 52,000 after 90 days. Still not terrible money, but the indy job is offering me 62,000 PLUS its cheaper to live in Indy! The benefits with the Indy job beat out the Denver job in every aspect too.
It's like buying a car, you have to show them that you are ready to walk out the door if they don't give you the deal you want. So if you haven't already, go back the the employer in Denver and tell them you have a better offer on the table (without divulging details of course), but are willing to let them try to match it. Then see what they come back with, and evaluate if that's what you want. Just remember that the lower your salary when you start the longer it takes to get it to where you want it to be if you stay there long term. Also, if you take the Indy job you aren't necessarily stuck there forever. Work it for a year or two, and if it's not doing it for you look around again.

4eyedbuzzard
01-29-2014, 14:38
Yours is a tough decision, but we all have to make them in life. As Mags noted, there are many possible paths our lives can take based upon decisions we make. It's a bit like business management - you make decisions based upon imperfect and often incomplete information, because you simply can't wait and because that perfect information never exists. Given that the offers are in the same order of magnitude, you need to factor in many things IMO.

Which people did you really click with? Which company culture did you like better? You will spend more waking hours with your co-workers than anyone else in your life (sad perhaps, but true). Being happy, and unstressed by the workplace culture itself (not the "good work stress") is absolutely huge, and far more important than geographical location.

Is the 8 person company in Indianapolis as stable as the one in Denver? How big is the company in Denver, how stable, etc.? What is the advancement potential at each?

The grass is always greener [there is probably a good pun here given recent legislation in Colorado as well]. But, there are likely as many miserable people in Denver as there are in Indianapolis. Life is more what you make it, rather than where you make it.

That said, having had to make a recent move from rural northern NH to Ft. Worth, TX myself (they made me an offer I couldn't refuse), I miss in order of importance: my wife (hoping to get a transfer here soon), the rural surroundings, the ease of finding public lands, mountains, and hiking trails where I could drive to a trailhead and be on wonderful trails in under an hour. But it was a move I HAD to make.

In the end, unless their is a compelling tangible reason to do otherwise, go with your gut feeling. We spend a lifetime analyzing everything around us, and our gut feeling is more often the correct one vs. the over-analyzed one. Good luck with your decision.

Happy44
01-29-2014, 14:51
wow 50 grand a year is crazy, i went to college for networking/sysadmin , finished and 3 years later still making 8$ an hour, TAKE THE JOB!

AkaMirage
01-29-2014, 14:56
This is probably not going to be the popular opinion, but whatever.

Too many people spend too much time working jobs they can't stand (making someone else(s) rich), for housing they don't use (and often don't like/want), to get stuff they don't need (or usually really want or like), to chase illusions of dreams that aren't theirs (fed to them by media), in a non sustainable life of mediocre dissatisfaction.

I'm not saying don't do something to support yourself. I am saying find a life to live. Do what you want and enjoy to support what you really want out of life. Stop existing (and aspiring to the expectations of others and society as a whole), and live your life for the only person it should matter to, yourself. Go find adventure, joy, success, failure, experience, travel, and LIFE.

You sound like you have already discovered that you don't want/need much for yourself. Also, you sound disillusioned with how society works, and the ongoing technological disregard of nature. Look into what you enjoy doing, that could support you, and your dreams. If you don't know what your dreams are, figure that out. That could mean trying things, day dreaming, researching options, and talking to others.

Figure out what kind of life is what makes you smile and want to get up in the morning, and go after it. Also, keep in mind, as you go through the journey of life, that definition can and probably will change, that is part of experience. Go with it, don't lock yourself into anything, you can't ever be sure your interests or needs won't change.

Those who don't support you in this, while not most likely trying to be against you, are afraid and conditioned by "tradition" and hype. Don't let them get you down, don't treat them ill, or even think ill of them. Though if they cannot be supportive enough to at least not put down your dreams and allow you the chance to live for you, consider dissociating from them.

Nyte, this is very well said. If this is the unpopular opinion, call me a contrarian.
The mantra on this site HYOH seems applicable here... LYOL - Live your own life! :sun

Mags
01-29-2014, 15:43
The grass is always greener [there is probably a good pun here given recent legislation in Colorado as well]. But, there are likely as many miserable people in Denver as there are in Indianapolis. Life is more what you make it, rather than where you make it.

.

I certainly can not disagree with this logic. Life IS what you make of it.

I will add, though, life is a lot easier, esp with job stress, when you do an after work climb with a good friend, go for a happy hour brew after and then feel like the work week ain't so bad. Or if you are busy, and only have have a half-day to hike on a Saturday, hiking to "only" the 8400' foothill with 2500' vert gain somehow makes the weekend just a bit better.

That's why I think where I live is an important part of my life. Again, this is just me personally.

I think we all agree that every choice has to be thought through with its share of pros and cons.

Conure
01-29-2014, 15:57
I think we all agree that every choice has to be thought through with its share of pros and cons.

And then just be prepared for "when everything goes to #$%@"! To quote the Grateful Dead, "When life looks like easy street, there is danger at your door."

SnailRacer
01-29-2014, 16:07
Free advice is worth exactly what it says. I use some advice that is pretty universal, from what my experience has taught me.
The Tao teaches that every second is a new opportunity to either continue what you're doing, or to move on to a new experience. Material things, responsibility, growing up, relationships (both personal & business) are over rated. Jump in the river of life and see where it takes you. You can steer your way along, but it is futile to fight the flow. Decisions are not right or wrong, they just lead to different paths. BubbaG!!



"The best things in life aren't things"

peakbagger
01-29-2014, 20:05
I would hang out in Indy for a few years. Your resume is probably a bit sparse right now and getting 2 or 3 years under your belt at one firm is not a bad choice. The other thing to do is live in Indy at the rate of pay you were willing to accept in Denver. Have it taken out of your paycheck before you even see it and in two years you will have a nice chunk of change. If you are good at what you do, there will be better jobs in more places in two years and having some cash in the bank will allow you some flexibility.

Meriadoc
01-29-2014, 20:24
One point I haven't seen made:
You can always change your mind in a year. You don't want to job hop, but this choice is not forever. It sounds like either one would work for you. So don't stress too much.


As regards making the decision, try this gedanken:
Pick option A. Live with it for a few hours. See how it feels. If possible, wait overnight.
Pick option B. Live with it for a few hours. See how it feels. If possible, wait overnight.
Often we have already made the decision but just need something to bring that decision to light whether it be discussion with a friend or picking an option and realizing 'this doesn't feel right.'

Good luck! Whatever you choose will work out!

Dogwood
01-29-2014, 22:11
How open were you regarding your reasons for wanting to move to Denver? The reason I ask is that if they realize that you are into outdoor activities and really want to be near the mountains, they could be using that information as leverage to negotiate a lower salary. I'm not advocating being dishonest in any way but I've found that in this type of situation it is often better to keep detailed personal information to a minimum. Just a thought since you seem pretty open about things here. That can sometimes backfire.

One big red flag that you mentioned is that the potential employer was willing to give you a name of someone who waived his non-compete in order to work for a competitor. Well, revealing the name of a former employee who "screwed over" the company is a pretty big ethical lapse in my opinion. That would enter into my thinking about whether I'd want to work for someone who would release that kind of information to others.


Yup, my take too. Although the company may just be seeking to protect it's intellectual property with having you agree to a non disclosure or non compete agreement. I'm not so sure about you being provided an actual name of a former employee under your situation as a potential new hiree though. I don't know enough though to make an informed judgement.


.... I was very open about "man I love it here! The mountains are great!!! I can't wait to go hike blah blah blah!" and yeah I think he is lowballing me on the fact that he was hoping I would love the area so much that I would just jump on it.....man I guess I wish I wasn't so excited when I went in for my interview!! And apparently, that dude didn't "screw over" the company, he had a good relationship with the company and his family moved to a place where a direct competitor was, so they waived his non compete. I don't know though. Sounds fishy to me.

Two aspects. One which follows over from RN's post. Think of it from an employer's perspective. They want you to be happy in Denver(a happy you often translates in their minds as you having a greater likely hood to be more productive at the company) BUT if you gave the impression that you were moving to Denver mostly to goof off in the mountains hiking, skiing, etc they might question your employment or initially offer a lower compensation. What might also be playing into their decisions is your work record like the duration you stayed with your past employer(s). They will look at your age, marrital status, etc as well in arriving at these types of conclusions about your commitment, stability, and long term feasability of employment with the company. All these things factor into job/salary offers. BE mindful of the image you project! You had what it took to get job offers which says a lot though! You also are in a great field with lots of avenues to pursue IF that's really what you want. This is also a very competitive job market where the potential employee pool is quite large meaning you may have to compete with more highly educated and experienced engineers than perhaps yourself for employment. They know this too so may have themselves believing they can afford to lowball you. LOL In their minds they may not even be thinking they low balled you. They may think that they gave you a fair offer.


I don't see myself in indy for the long haul, but who knows. I mean this company just seems so friendly and nice here in indy. But a new city also sounds very appealing. I just know that the type of work I do will directly relate to a large amount of my happiness. Looks like the company here in Indy will make me happy, but the location not so much. The mountains and terrain excite me, but the job and the way they are handling things is making me feel uneasy, which is not a good start.

Again, your happiness is important, obviously to you, and most likely your employer, BUT readjust your perspective to the potential employer's perspective - ask yourself questions from their pt of view - Will they be happy with what you can potentially provide? long term? with your salary requirements? etc. What is the likely hood that you will stay with the company long term(especially mindful to remember if it is a long term position you are applying for!)? When you want something from someone whether you're in sales, your GF/spouse/SO, a LEO, gov't, whatever, ALWAYS keep things in terms of what you can do for them not what you can get from them, especially when initially seeking that something! You primarily focused on, especially in the initial stages of negotiations, what YOU want and not being clear about how the company will benefit(be realistic but don't be afraid to sell yourself), will result in you being lowballed or not being offered a meaningful long term position(if that's what you want!).

I know much of this was best being known before seeking employment but it could help you in deciding on where you want to live and work. Here's another thing it seems you should get clear. Are you more career minded(work) at this stage or more live(play?) minded? What's your comfortable balance between the two? Nobody but you can answer that!

I'm telling you this based on my experience as both an employer who was directly responsible for hiring employees and as one who has been an employee or one who has sought employment BOTH on a temporary/until the project is finished basis and on a long term many yrs of employment with the same company basis.

I'm trying not to offend but be honest so that perhaps it could be of some help. I'm telling you I detect a large amount of wishy washyness instability lack of concrete career goals/direction which may concern potential employers and factor into employment, benefits, salary, etc. IF they find out. You come off not knowing what you want in both your career as an engineer or in life(where, how you want to live). That can be a red flag to an employer. If I can detect it here so will potential employers in sit down face to face interviews and going forward as you work in the company. You had what it took to get an EE degree and get job offers though which says a lot.

It seems, FIRST AND FOREMOST, you should get clear WHAT YOU WANT, disregarding anything about the current job offers, WHAT YOU WANT YOUR LIFE TO BE ABOUT, WHAT YOU WANT TO CONTRIBUTE! Sit down on a park bench, go outside, take a long walk, do an overnighter in the woods with a journal writing it down focusing in on these broad life goals, interests, persoanl strengths/weaknesses, etc. GET CLEAR with what you want IN LIFE regardless about job offers so YOU can come to a decision about the job/job location. NO ONE HERE can do that for you. This is another time to invest in yourself just as you did in the 4 yrs of college, just as you did completing a thru-hike,......NEXT CHAPTER - know thyself!

I want to hear more about what you learned, particularly as it applies to yourself - knowing yourself - from doing an AT thru-hike?

Marta
01-29-2014, 22:16
What's your life like in Indy when you're not working? In your spare time are you already doing the kinds of things you are hankering to do? (This is a rhetorical question, not one I expect you to answer online.) Do you have a good group of friends you get out hiking with, rock climbing with, adventuring with? Colorado has a tremendous outdoor culture. If you make the slightest effort, you'll be having a great time exploring unbelievably beautiful places every day that you're not working. And you might well be able to set yourself up to cycle to work. Colorado is a cycle-friendly state.

The money issue does't seem that significant to me. If the company in Denver is low-balling you, you can always leave them in 6-12 months for a higher bidder, or bargain them upwards by making yourself someone they would hate to have leave.

Another bit of advice: Beware of the high-paying job--it can lead you into the temptation to bind yourself to that income. One of my sons works in the oil industry, with a lot of people who make astronomical sums of money. Most of them have proceeded to acquire debts and obligations that will keep them slaving away for the rest of their natural lives. (One guy who makes >$300k/year owns 100 racehorses. He has to work at least 25 days a month to break even.) No matter how much money you make, it is always possible to spend even more.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do!

Marta
01-29-2014, 22:19
Ditto what Dogwood said...

And what Mags said.

BTW, a year and a half ago I took a massive pay cut, left a gorgeous house, went far, far away from family and friends, and generally created a whole lot of work for my husband and myself to move from Charlotte, NC, to NW Montana. We still have enough money to live on and we live in one of the most beautiful places on this earth. Our spare time is spent hiking, snowshoeing, and skiing. This way of life isn't for everyone, but it is definitely right for me.

Siarl
01-29-2014, 22:57
Ever hear of the saying, "Can't see the forest for the trees"? Well, sometimes, looking at the forest is too much to take in as well. Looking at the forest and trying to make decisions is enough to overwhelm even the best of us. Take life one day at a time. Consider some of the things you want to do in the long term and then make short term plans that will get you there. In between all that, go hiking, camping, more little adventures, anything that will lift your spirits.

Marta
01-30-2014, 00:43
As they do so often, The Onion nails it:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/horrified-man-suddenly-realizes-hes-putting-down-r,35102/

4eyedbuzzard
01-30-2014, 03:31
. . . Another bit of advice: Beware of the high-paying job--it can lead you into the temptation to bind yourself to that income. . . (One guy who makes >$300k/year owns 100 racehorses. He has to work at least 25 days a month to break even.) No matter how much money you make, it is always possible to spend even more.Which beats the doggie snot out of working 25 days a month and still not having the time nor being able to afford to do much anything - and slowly go bankrupt as well. Seriously, I've had low paying jobs and high paying jobs. The high paying ones are much, MUCH, better. You take nicer vacations, eat better food, don't face the pressure and stress of how you are going to pay monthly bills - the list is endless. Just don't fall into the trap of living right up to the edge of your income. Always put in to your 401K or TSP at least what you employer matches plus another 10%. Because unless you are a very unusual person and "make it big", one day you will wake up and you will be older, and likely will want to retire. How you spend your later years is decided on how you plan and what you do NOW and for the next 30 years or so. You can retire at 55 with enough money to travel, hike, do all the things you might like, and not have to worry about living on a small fixed income. Or you can retire at 70, or even never, and barely have enough to scrape by, because you simply can't afford to. And getting up and going to work doesn't get any easier the older you get. But that day WILL come.

It is true that money isn't everything. But to a large degree it equates to greater freedom to do those things you like to do and to a more enjoyable future. Choose and plan wisely.


Best of luck with whatever you decide to do!Ditto

Mags
01-30-2014, 09:22
The money issue does't seem that significant to me. If the company in Denver is low-balling you, you can always leave them in 6-12 months for a higher bidder, or bargain them upwards by making yourself someone they would hate to have leave.

Another bit of advice: Beware of the high-paying job--it can lead you into the temptation to bind yourself to that income.


I will say that for *experienced* technical workers (be it engineers or IT monkeys like me) the job market is HOT in Denver. I am not even actively looking and I get offers for interviews at least once every two weeks. I am not even anything that remarkable (good, but certainly not the guy who stands up his own server for fun at home!)

If you get a solid year or so of experience under your belt, you will get what you are worth.

To add to what Marta said, , if you have a good engineering job at home and. if you are like many young men, you'll probably date. Don't know what it is like in Indiana, but among my conservative blue collar family and friends (or at least raised that way), if you have a "good job" and are with a "nice girl", you are married by 30. :) Not a bad thing at all..if that is what you want. But, makes it harder to leave. Just a thought anyway.

Popnfrsh24
01-30-2014, 12:09
thanks for the advice people. I am still just overwhelmed by everything....it feels like such a big decision for me, and i have to make a decision in about 24 hrs from now. ARGH!!!!!

Berserker
01-30-2014, 12:52
thanks for the advice people. I am still just overwhelmed by everything....it feels like such a big decision for me, and i have to make a decision in about 24 hrs from now. ARGH!!!!!
When feeling overwhelmed just remember that you are young, have your whole career ahead of you, have a highly sought after degree, have 2 companies offering you what sound like decent jobs, and you thru hiked the AT...it don't get much better than that ;)

4eyedbuzzard
01-30-2014, 13:00
When feeling overwhelmed just remember that you are young, have your whole career ahead of you, have a highly sought after degree, have 2 companies offering you what sound like decent jobs, and you thru hiked the AT...it don't get much better than that ;)+1 And given what has happened in our economy, yours is a wonderful dilemma to be in Popnfrsh. Your hard work earning your degree and starting your career has paid off. Having to choose between two good job offers is your reward. ;) (No good deed goes unpunished rule)

Popnfrsh24
02-07-2014, 12:05
Welp, FYI guys I took the Indianapolis job. The Denver job never even came back with a counter offer, tried calling them and no response, so I went ahead with the Indy job. Indy job is super excited for me to be on board, so I think good things will come from this. Thanks for all of your guy's advice!

Now...I am starting the search to get into an apartment. This is where I am having some more decisions, decisions, decisions! I am looking for a nice place in the Indy area (one that hopefully has a lot of young professionals so I can meet new people), and it is looking like I can pay anywhere from 900-1000/month for these places. No utilities are included in this...DAMNNNN! But, I am very fortunate to have no more college debt, so this is one reason why I can justify paying this much for rent.

Now, I was fretting over the job decision, now I am fretting over what I want to do about a living situation! I have a potential for a roommate who is a mutual friend from college, and he is a real stand up guy. Having a roommate could help with being alone, split rent, and utilites. Plus, he has all of the living items, where i have ZERO. But there are of course also downsides too...we could not have the most similar interests, and would we potentially get on each others nerves? I do play guitar a LOT, and I think he is still going to school to get a MBA on the weekend.

One thing I have not done is live by myself...and I am rather intimidated by it. My last professional job, I was living out of hotels and eating out for every meal. This would be a HUGE change for me, coming back to an apartment where I have to cook/clean/etc. So, is this the time for me to bite the bullet and live on my OWN!? I do feel like sometimes doing the thing you are most afraid of will turn out to grow you as a human being, is this one of those cases? Will I have a lot of personal growth by doing this? Or would I still have a lot of growth if I get a roomie to help with costs, have someone to chum around with/etc. What do y'all think?

Berserker
02-07-2014, 12:50
Welp, FYI guys I took the Indianapolis job.

One thing I have not done is live by myself...and I am rather intimidated by it. My last professional job, I was living out of hotels and eating out for every meal. This would be a HUGE change for me, coming back to an apartment where I have to cook/clean/etc. So, is this the time for me to bite the bullet and live on my OWN!? I do feel like sometimes doing the thing you are most afraid of will turn out to grow you as a human being, is this one of those cases? Will I have a lot of personal growth by doing this? Or would I still have a lot of growth if I get a roomie to help with costs, have someone to chum around with/etc. What do y'all think?
Congrats on the job. As for living with a roommate or alone, that's all up to your personal preference. I'm married with kids now, but when I was a single professional I did both...lived with roommates and alone. I vastly preferred living alone, and only tried the roommate thing out a few times. I found out from those few times that I am quite particular about how I like things, and that's a lot easier to control if you live alone.

4eyedbuzzard
02-07-2014, 14:44
Not having lived alone for many decades, due to a job transfer I have recently found myself living away from home until Mrs. Buzzard can arrange a transfer. After renting a 1 bedroom apt, my son unexpectedly moved in with me for a month. I love him - but in many ways I'm glad he's now moved out into his own place. Living alone can be obviously lonely at times, but you do have control over everything. Little things that other people do can be rather annoying. How they keep their personal possessions, handle their laundry, whether or not they clean up after themselves, etc, etc, etc . . .
At minimum, I'd suggest a 2 bedroom, 2 bath apt. if you're considering that option.

Sierra2015
02-07-2014, 15:05
Oh my god... you sound so young.


But I speak from a deep place of narcissism, feelings of inadequacy, and jealousy. This past year I worked 50 to 60 hours a week and made about half as much as your starting salary. And no momma and papa. Four months ago my job fired 2/3 of their employees. I was kept on but I lost 30% of my hours. My hard earned savings have been slowly evaporating away. Smoke in my grubby, greedy little fingers.


Ah, I feel better. It's okay, I'm moving to a cheaper city, going to pursue some more education (useful education hopefully, more science and math and less art appreciation), and actually be able to afford to live without a roommate for the first time in my life.


See? I warned you I was narcissistic.


Enough about me, what I want to say to you is you're incredibly blessed. Don't go into music outside of having it as a hobby. It's a self-indulgent pursuit. (Hypocritically said since I plan to hike the AT next year and that's self-indulgent to the max.)


Also, stop squandering your money on eating out. It's practically a sin to waste resources like that. The difference between eating out and making all your food from scratch is close to 400 a month. (Don't believe me? Do the math and include tip. If you start baking your own bread and making your own pasta sauce you can eat on 80 a month.) Put your money away and save for a house. You're 26, not 19. Save enough and buy a house out in Colorado.


In regards to either living with a roommate or living alone.... If you're not planning to put those potential savings towards something worthwhile and practical, then screw the roommate idea. Live alone.


As a girl I have to say I hate dating guys that have roommates. Want to meet girls? Be independent. Want to have quality girls (eventually) come back to your place? Be independent.


Obviously I'm not very sympathetic. I hope you can forgive me for that and see where it comes from.

Pressure D
02-07-2014, 18:40
Good luck Lighthouse in your new job. I just came upon this thread or I would have entered in! If it doesn't work out move to Denver! Your trail buddy Pressure D

Mags
02-07-2014, 19:42
If you are new to a city, roomies are nice. Great way to meet people. If you want to save money, room mates are nice.

BUT, I found after a certain point, I preferred my own space. I suspect Indy is relatively inexpensive, sounds like you are making a good salary and you know the city (I assume?) already. All depends.

And..what Sierra said. When you have, as my late grandfather said, "a lady friend" having your own space is much better.

ps. learn to cook if you haven't already! It is indeed less expensive. And, if you can cook well...if it impressive. :)