Help convince and possibly change views of heavy pack hiker.

[Different Socks]

Been a member of this site for awhile now. Have seen numerous posts/questions about the weight off a pack in regards to how little or how much a person prefers to carry. Many of the UL people on this site claim to have base weights of 12--15 pounds, possibly alittle more or even less. I am having trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that a pack can still weigh so little after adding on EVERYTHING else needed to do a 4--5 day hike.
Now I know the UL's will say that since they carry less weight, they can go further, thereby less food would be needed, so let's use this an an example for my question: The 100 mile wilderness of Maine. Even if you walk 25 miles/day(most people wouldn't), that is still 4 days of food and water to carry.
Here is a list of what I may carry for those 4 days:

4 dinners with dried veggies and dried meats
Various and numerous candy bars/pop tarts/granola bars/fruit bars
Powdered milk
Enough drink powders for 4 qts each day
A small bottle of olive oil
Breads of some kind--Pitas, bagels, tortillas or even a loaf
Crackers
Cookies
Cream cheese/honey/peanut butter for the bread
A small can of parmesan cheese for the dinners
A small bag of gorp or similar trail mix
Jerky
Various spices, or at the least pepper
Hot cocoa packets or tea bags
No bake desserts--for 4 days, I'd carry at least 1 to enjoy after a 25 mile day.

All of these items in my list above, in whatever combination, for a 4 day supply of satisfying, appetizing food would add a considerable amount of weight.

If you carry 4 dinners of any kind, what do they constitute? Any meats/veggies?
If you carry candy bars and they are the tiny bite size, how many would be required to satisfy you during/after a 25 mile day, yet keep the pack weight down? And for all 4 days?
How many pop tart packets? Granola bars? How big of a bag of gorp?
How many cookies? How much jerky?
How many bagels or tortillas?
Do you carry any of the other things for meals?

See, to me these questions warrant the issue of pack weight. If your pack weighs so little BEFORE adding in food and water, how can your pack weigh so little after?

What exactly do you carry for meals, snacks, dessert, drinks and/or other things to keep you satisfied for 25 miles/day for 4 days AND still claim your total pack weight is so low?

And please, I don't wish to hear arguements about what I should/should not carry. And I am not questioning what you should/should not carry or eat. I simply wish to know exactly what it is that you do carry for those 4 days to create/eat satisfying foods. I also would prefer to hear from many of you that carry a stove(alky or white gas) for making hot meals, since that does add weight to the pack.

[Ktaadn]

This is a pretty generic day for me. My skin-out weight without food is about 16 pounds. Best ways to save weight are to not bring extra clothes and don't carry too much water.



Breakfast
Serving
Calories
Ounces


Clif Bar
1 Bar
240.00
2.40


Granola Bar
1 Bar
130.00
1.20










370.00
3.60








Lunch
Serving
Calories
Ounces


Tortillia
2 Shells
340.00
3.93


Bacon
1 package
357.20
2.52
















697.20
6.45








Dinner
Serving
Calories
Ounces


Tortillia
2 Shells
340.00
3.93


Salami
1/3
330.00
3.00


Cheese
1 oz
121.00
1.00
















791.00
7.93








Snacks
Serving
Calories
Ounces


M&M's
1/6th bag
301.72
2.10


PB
1/6th Jar
420.00
2.67










721.72
4.77










2579.93
22.74

[Tipi Walter]

ULers with a 10 lb baseweight won't have a problem carrying 8 lbs of food for 4 days. A 18-20 lb pack is nothing. And I think a 12-15 lb baseweight pack as in your example means without food and water.

[Slo-go'en]

If you go by the 2 pounds of food per day rule of thumb, that is 10 pounds of food for 5 days. If your base weight is 18 pounds, which isn't too hard to do, your talking 28-30 pounds leaving town. The first day out of town is always the worst, as the pack is at it's heaviest.


Personally, if I have to carry 5 days of food, I'll skimp a little and try for 1.5 pounds per day. Any heavy food will be eaten in the first day or two with the lighter stuff saved for later.


Since everyone's tastes are different and the amount of pre-hike food prep one is willing to do also varries, doing specific food lists is pretty much pointless. I wish I could come up with something other then Knorr Pasta Sides and Tuna for dinner - I am seriously getting sick of those meals!

[Different Socks]

If you go by the 2 pounds of food per day rule of thumb, that is 10 pounds of food for 5 days. If your base weight is 18 pounds, which isn't too hard to do, your talking 28-30 pounds leaving town. The first day out of town is always the worst, as the pack is at it's heaviest.


Personally, if I have to carry 5 days of food, I'll skimp a little and try for 1.5 pounds per day. Any heavy food will be eaten in the first day or two with the lighter stuff saved for later.


Since everyone's tastes are different and the amount of pre-hike food prep one is willing to do also varries, doing specific food lists is pretty much pointless. I wish I could come up with something other then Knorr Pasta Sides and Tuna for dinner - I am seriously getting sick of those meals!I

If you use packets for your meats, try salmon and chicken.

[map man]

Over the years I have done more simplifying and have done a better job of only packing foods that I know that I will like, even after eating them day after day. For a long hike this diet would give me two pounds of food daily totaling 4180 calories per day:

1 Cliff Builder Bar, assorted flavors: 270 calories
3 Cliff Bars, assorted flavors: 250 calories each
6 Organic Food Bars, assorted flavors: 300 calories each (all ten bars weigh 2.4 ounces)
8 ounces salted mixed nuts: 170 calories per ounce

Three bars for breakfast and dinner, bars and nuts alternated throughout the hiking day every hour. Some of the Organic Food Bars, depending on the flavor, have the equivalent of one serving of fruits or vegetables. No, this diet is not for everyone, but it works for me. I tend to have very even energy throughout the day without the surges and dips some hikers experience and I think this has something to do with the slow drip method I use for eating throughout the day. I don't gorge when I get to trail towns -- I keep eating the same thing. My last two week section hike in the southern Appalachians I ate this way and didn't lose a single pound.

[Coffee]

Typical food for a day on the JMT this summer:

Breakfast: Instant oatmeal with pecans and cranberries. Coffee. 750 calories, 6.3 ounces.
Morning snack: Clif Bar. 240 calories, 2.5 ounces.
Lunch: Dried hummus and two tortillas (add olive oil and water). 590 calories, 5.6 ounces.
Afternoon snack: Trail mix. 520 calories, 3.6 ounces
Dinner: Trader Joe's cheese tortellini with 1/2 package Knorr pesto packet plus olive oil. 840 calories, 6.4 ounces.
Dessert: 3 fun size snickers. 240 calories, 1.8 ounces

Total: 3180 calories, 26.2 ounces.

On the JMT I had to be aware of both weight and volume due to the bear canister. When not dealing with a bear canister, I would substitute bread, pitas or bagels for tortillas and take a long higher volume snacks like Fritos.

[Different Socks]

This is a pretty generic day for me. My skin-out weight without food is about 16 pounds. Best ways to save weight are to not bring extra clothes and don't carry too much water.



Breakfast
Serving
Calories
Ounces


Clif Bar
1 Bar
240.00
2.40


Granola Bar
1 Bar
130.00
1.20










370.00
3.60








Lunch
Serving
Calories
Ounces


Tortillia
2 Shells
340.00
3.93


Bacon
1 package
357.20
2.52
















697.20
6.45








Dinner
Serving
Calories
Ounces


Tortillia
2 Shells
340.00
3.93


Salami
1/3
330.00
3.00


Cheese
1 oz
121.00
1.00
















791.00
7.93








Snacks
Serving
Calories
Ounces


M&M's
1/6th bag
301.72
2.10


PB
1/6th Jar
420.00
2.67










721.72
4.77










2579.93
22.74






Wow! Some of your amounts to eat seem to be incredibly low(1/6th's of a bag?). Aren't you ever hungry after eating so little, especially for a 25 mile day?

[4shot]

a typical hiking day on the trail (for me);
breakfast - 2 pouches of instant breakfast (mixed with cold water) and some sort of granola bar
snacks - midmorning and afternoon - snickers (large) and/or trail mix or salami/cheese
lunch - PB&J on bagel
evening meal - some sort of warm meal - instant rice or pasta, maybe with salami, dehydrated fruit. Snickers for dessert.


never thought to weigh it. as map man said, eat throughout the day helps maintain energy. If I were resupplying for 4 days I'd get a box of instant breakfast, a box of granola or energy bars, 8 snickers, a bag o' bagels (?),the large bag of trail mix, a jar of PB&J (premixed kind) and 4 instant pasta/rice. Occasionally I would substitute a block of salami and cheese for the PB&J or get the tuna pouches (got to wear I hated them though). Of course I would discard the boxes before leaving town. Sometimes I would carry some fresh fruit for the first day or a small bag of candy for a treat (I loved the GummiWorms although I have never eaten them before or since my hike).

rinse.lather.repeat. you can go a long way on that diet but a word of warning - after 5+ months of it (supplemented with daily hiking), I lost 40 lbs. of weight . (Maybe I should market it to those looking for the latest fad diet.):sun

[Hot Flash]

rinse.lather.repeat. you can go a long way on that diet but a word of warning - after 5+ months of it (supplemented with daily hiking), I lost 40 lbs. of weight . (Maybe I should market it to those looking for the latest fad diet.):sun

It's not the food, it's the exercise. People who fall for fad diets typically aren't the ones who are willing to exercise in order to lose weight, they want an easy quick fix that doesn't take effort.

[OCDave]

I do not consider myself UL, in fact, I am still struggling to get to/maintain a lightweight status. My lengthiest hikes are 5-7 days. I always pack too little food. I finish my hike with no food and famished. Less food= less weight.

While this is not a sustainable strategy for a thru-hiker, I find it enhances my outdoors experience. Somewhat akin to a cleanse or fasting.

Good Luck

[moldy]

Moveable feast? Dude, you can eat all that food on a 4 or 5 day hike? I will eat less than half that amount of food on the same hike. Each day I eat, 1 pack of instant oatmeal for breakfast, 2 snickers bars for lunch and a mountain house meal for dinner. Other than 2 instant coffee packs, that's it.

[Kerosene]

As noted by Tipi above, the base weight people are referring to is everything on your back minus food and water. For planning purposes, the daily food weight for a section hiker is almost always between 24 and 32 ounces (1.5-2.0 pounds). You might choose to go a bit heavier the first day if you add fresh food (it was totally worth it to carry a giant, fresh-baked, gooey cinnamon roll from The Red Hen in Andover to the top of Old Blue!), with lighter menu options for the later days. Outside of the 100 Mile Wilderness, it is rare for me to carry any more than 4 days of food, and usually I'm resupplying after 2.5-3 days. Of course, once you've been on the trail for a month your appetite will kick in to the point that you'll be carrying extra food and fuel.

[Malto]

Keep in mind that base weight doesn't include food.

My ideal resupply leg is 100 miles which I will do in three days. I have an eight lb base weight and for this length of hike I would carry about 20,000 calories at departure. That food weight would be about ten lbs giving me a 22 lb total weight at departure which is quite manageable.

As far as food. I would likely have about half my food weight in Maltodextrin with two healthy dose of protein such as Spam lite at days end. The rest would be a mix of sweet and salty junk food. For a through hike I would also include PNB and tortillas and likely dinners such as hamburger helper. My food density normally averages about 125 calories per ounce. I found going higher than that is counterproductive.

[Tipi Walter]

I do not consider myself UL, in fact, I am still struggling to get to/maintain a lightweight status. My lengthiest hikes are 5-7 days. I always pack too little food. I finish my hike with no food and famished. Less food= less weight.

While this is not a sustainable strategy for a thru-hiker, I find it enhances my outdoors experience. Somewhat akin to a cleanse or fasting.

Good Luck

I once did a 5 day backpacking trip south of the Smokies and started it on my 4th day of fasting, planning to fast the whole time. On my last day and my 9th day of fasting I could barely climb out of the gorge I was in and the big pack didn't help. But I agree---it's always good to fast one day when out on a backpacking trip---better yet, do the fast during a zero in-tent day during a crappy rainstorm. If you can stand to fast with piles of scrumptious food laying in the tent vestibule, begging you to EAT IT.

I actually like to fast a few days BEFORE a trip and purge the system and get my tongue ready for all the food I have laid out and plan to carry. Another trick to never eat at home what you will eat on the trip---oatmeal, mac and cheese, eggs, burritos, peanuts/peanut butter, etc. THEN when you get on the trail you'll be richly rewarded with crap you've been wanting to eat for a month.

[theGABE]

Best way I found to save weight on food was to supplement in a lot of fatty foods. Fat has the most calories per its weights compared to protein and carbohydrates. Peanutbutter and nuts are great stuff for calories and protein and I started putting plain butter on things that I ate, especially in things that I cook. If I remember correctly, 2 lbs of butter have about 6000 calories. Hot dang that is a good weight to calorie ratio. Of course that is a lot of butter, I will usually just carry a 12-16 oz tub for 5 days.

[Tipi Walter]

Best way I found to save weight on food was to supplement in a lot of fatty foods. Fat has the most calories per its weights compared to protein and carbohydrates. Peanutbutter and nuts are great stuff for calories and protein and I started putting plain butter on things that I ate, especially in things that I cook. If I remember correctly, 2 lbs of butter have about 6000 calories. Hot dang that is a good weight to calorie ratio. Of course that is a lot of butter, I will usually just carry a 12-16 oz tub for 5 days.

Best way I have found to save food weight is to get a good home dehydrator and religiously start drying everything you can. This technique has lightened my food load by 30%.

[-Animal]

And please, I don't wish to hear arguements about what I should/should not carry. And I am not questioning what you should/should not carry or eat. I simply wish to know exactly what it is that you do carry for those 4 days to create/eat satisfying foods. I also would prefer to hear from many of you that carry a stove(alky or white gas) for making hot meals, since that does add weight to the pack.
I usually shop for two weeks of food at a time so this is a different exercise for me. Four days shopping list-
2 boxes of poptarts 29.4 oz 3200cal $4
1 tub Oatmeal 18oz 2000cal $1.65
2 pks Tortias 28oz 2200cal $2.78
1 pk Bologna 16oz 1000cal $1.28
2 jar Peanut Butter 32oz 6000cal $4
1 jar Jelly 22oz 1550cal $1.88
1 box Little Debbies 18oz 2000cal $1.66
Totals= 153.4oz 17950cal $ 17.25
Meals should be self-explanatory. All this food is no cook. I eat spoonfuls of raw oatmeal with peanut butter. Spend some money to get some veggies…I get mine for free.

[Deadeye]

I'm not going to try to convince anyone of anything, but since you asked, I can give you my info. My pack, without food and water weighs about 14 pounds. At 2 pounds of food per day plus the weight of the bear canister and a quart of water (I rarely carry more), I start a 5-day trip at about 28 pounds, and end it at 14. I don't bring much extra, but I do splurge on my hammock, and I hike and camp very comfortably.

[Deadeye]

And if I read the question all the way through, I can answer it better! My breakfast is usually muesli or granola & milk. Lots of nuts and dried fruits (applies, dates, apricots, raisins, prunes, etc.) and cheese for snacks. Tortillas w/ PB&J for lunches, or bagels & spam, or whatever. Dinners are combos of mashed potatoes or noodles with dried veggies and a can/pouch of chicken/salmon/tuna/spam.

[MuddyWaters]

In spring-summer-early fall conditions, my pack without food and water weighs about 7 lbs for a short trip.

Throw in 1.5 L water = 3.3 lbs and the pack weighs 10.3 lbs

For a 5 day trip, Id probably take 8 lbs of food, and would have an 18.5 lb pack the first day. Id end up bringing home food too. Im simply not that hungry on a short trip. Target 150 cal/oz for food, end up averaging about 125. Yep, I lose weight too. Its tolerable for a short trip, and it wouldnt matter anyway, I wouldnt eat more food if I brought it.

By the last day, the pack weighs all of 9-10 lbs. Its a great feeling when you get under 17 lbs or so, like not wearing a pack.

Bkfast - granola/powdered milk or some convenience store pastry, or oatmeal raising cookies
snacks- trail mix,jerky, beef-n-cheese, and anything Little Debbie makes
lunch- peanut butter/jelly/tortillas, pepperoni/cheese/tortillas, tuna salad/mayonaisse on tortillas
dinner- pasta side with tuna /chicken/jerky or mountain house, with olive oil added


I dont think of food as something to enjoy, I think of it as something I have to do. Its basically just fuel.

[Theosus]

My breakfast is usually a packet of quaker instant grits and maybe a nutra-grain bar or something. Maybe some "fruit loops" If I'm adventurous. Snack on dehydrated fruits and such during the day, lunch might be a cliff bar or something. supper is usually some dehydrated potatoes (idahoan) and maybe half a blueberry bagel or something. Bagels are heavy and bulky, but everything else is almost water free and light. I tend not to eat or carry much meat when I hike. I used to, but keep paring it down to simpler and simpler things. Usually I lay out all my food before a trip, in little piles. Anything I'm not SURE I am going to eat stays home.

[Dogwood]

I regularly hike 25 MPD avg and can easily(after much trial and error!) get my trail food wt down to 1.5 lbs per day(avg about 3200-3800 cal/day), hitting a town every 3-6 days to eat more to partially make up for the caloric deficit. If mailing resupply boxes and being a really uptight gram weenie doing a longer haul between resupplying I get my trail food wt down to the 1.25 -1.5 lb/day. I take the approach of resupplying more often overall lowering my trail food wt carried which, disregarding water hauls, is by far the single heaviest thing in my pack. Big 4 fair weather late spring/summer/early fall lower/mid elev long distance backpacking wt is easily sub 6 lbs often sub 5 lbs

[Dogwood]

One of the BIG reasons why you are having this thought, "I am having trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that a pack can still weigh so little after adding on EVERYTHING else needed to do a 4--5 day hike", is because backpackers that have UL/Lighter wt kits don't feel they need to have EVERYTHING you feel you need.:)


There's no need to have anyone convince you of anything. Find the backpacking path that is currently OK FOR YOU and go backpacking. Maybe, you're currently backpacking EXACTLY as you should be. :) Pade Pade

[Different Socks]

Moveable feast? Dude, you can eat all that food on a 4 or 5 day hike? I will eat less than half that amount of food on the same hike. Each day I eat, 1 pack of instant oatmeal for breakfast, 2 snickers bars for lunch and a mountain house meal for dinner. Other than 2 instant coffee packs, that's it.

Whoa! No dessert? No snacks?
I never cease to be amazed by the number of hikers that I meet that are proud of how little they carry in regards to food, yet they are the first to stick a spoon in my face when I begin eating my no bake cheesecake.

[Different Socks]

As noted by Tipi above, the base weight people are referring to is everything on your back minus food and water. For planning purposes, the daily food weight for a section hiker is almost always between 24 and 32 ounces (1.5-2.0 pounds). You might choose to go a bit heavier the first day if you add fresh food (it was totally worth it to carry a giant, fresh-baked, gooey cinnamon roll from The Red Hen in Andover to the top of Old Blue!), with lighter menu options for the later days. Outside of the 100 Mile Wilderness, it is rare for me to carry any more than 4 days of food, and usually I'm resupplying after 2.5-3 days. Of course, once you've been on the trail for a month your appetite will kick in to the point that you'll be carrying extra food and fuel.

I hesitated to say this when Tipi brought it up, but if you read the OP again you will see I said "base weight" before adding water and food.

[Turk6177]

My breakfasts are always the same- 2 pop tarts, instant coffee and cocoa mixed together, and two packages of instant oatmeal. My lunches rotate between spam and mayo and bbq sauce on a tortilla and peanut butter, honey and trail mix on a tortilla. My dinners consist of a mountain house meal. As I walk, I graze on 6 ounces of trail mix a day (including what I put on my tortilla). Lastly, I have a small bag of skittles each day to give me climbing power. I believe I am right around or just under the two pounds of food a day. Some days I am not hungry enough to eat all my trail mix, so I have a little for night time snacks.

[Different Socks]

Best way I found to save weight on food was to supplement in a lot of fatty foods. Fat has the most calories per its weights compared to protein and carbohydrates. Peanutbutter and nuts are great stuff for calories and protein and I started putting plain butter on things that I ate, especially in things that I cook. If I remember correctly, 2 lbs of butter have about 6000 calories. Hot dang that is a good weight to calorie ratio. Of course that is a lot of butter, I will usually just carry a 12-16 oz tub for 5 days.

See now, Gabe you state my point: the tub of butter plus all your foods, plus snacks, plus breads, plus anything else has gotta add up to a good weight. I can't wait to meet the people on my next AT thru that claim to carry so little, yet are not still hungry at the end of the last meal.

Keep'em coming people. I'd like to hear more. Not narrow minded or stubborn, just maybe alittle too stiff on my ideas. help me bend them.

[Different Socks]

Best way I have found to save food weight is to get a good home dehydrator and religiously start drying everything you can. This technique has lightened my food load by 30%.

I've done the same thing. On my PCT/AT/CDT hikes, I always carried canned meats and 1 can of chili per mail drop. Now I have it all dehydrated--meats, veggies, beans, etc.

[Tipi Walter]

Been a member of this site for awhile now. Have seen numerous posts/questions about the weight off a pack in regards to how little or how much a person prefers to carry. Many of the UL people on this site claim to have base weights of 12--15 pounds, possibly alittle more or even less. I am having trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that a pack can still weigh so little after adding on EVERYTHING else needed to do a 4--5 day hike.

See, to me these questions warrant the issue of pack weight. If your pack weighs so little BEFORE adding in food and water, how can your pack weigh so little after?

What exactly do you carry for meals, snacks, dessert, drinks and/or other things to keep you satisfied for 25 miles/day for 4 days AND still claim your total pack weight is so low?

And please, I don't wish to hear arguements about what I should/should not carry. And I am not questioning what you should/should not carry or eat. I simply wish to know exactly what it is that you do carry for those 4 days to create/eat satisfying foods. I also would prefer to hear from many of you that carry a stove(alky or white gas) for making hot meals, since that does add weight to the pack.

There's some confusion here. First you say, 'Many UL people . . . claim to have baseweights of 12-15 lbs" and then you say you are having trouble understanding how ". . . a pack can still weigh so little after adding on everything else needed . . . ". (food and water).

The thing is, well, that it does not weigh so little and surely not the 12-15 lbs mentioned. What's your reference number for "so little" after the food and water is added? I don't see this number anywhere in your equation. Where is the UL claim that their baseweight is the same as their total pack weight with 5 days worth of food/water? I must be getting dementia cuz I don't understand it.

[Tipi Walter]

I've done the same thing. On my PCT/AT/CDT hikes, I always carried canned meats and 1 can of chili per mail drop. Now I have it all dehydrated--meats, veggies, beans, etc.

It's amazing when the light bulb goes off---"Wow! I can dehydrate everything I like to eat at home---canned soups, chilis, refried beans, frozen burritos, cream of mushroom soup, tomato soup, butternut squash soup, Tasty Bite soups, blended fruit smoothies, cooked spaghetti with sauce (one gallon ziploc dried is good enough for 8 or 9 days on the trail)."

I just finished drying several Amy's burritos---Indian spinach wraps---

http://assets.trailspace.com/assets/c/d/2/2460882/FOOD-003.jpg

http://assets.trailspace.com/assets/c/c/f/2460879/FOOD-002.jpg
And then there is sweet potato soup---

http://assets.trailspace.com/assets/c/d/5/2460885/FOOD-005.jpg
And what's wrong with a little dried Soysauge??

[steve0423]

By the time I finished my thru this year, I was trying to fuel my hike on nothing but frozen burritos and Mountain Dew. Never quite got that program lined out. But still managed to carry 20-25lbs over a 5 day period eating much of the same stuff already listed. I will say that from my experience, the OP's menu is noticeably fuller and nicer then what I carry and what I see most others carry, though I did share a shelter in VT with a group training to lead a trip for Overland who packed in a full on kitchen and cooked up a hell of a feast.

[Dogwood]

Whoa! No dessert? No snacks?
I never cease to be amazed by the number of hikers that I meet that are proud of how little they carry in regards to food, yet they are the first to stick a spoon in my face when I begin eating my no bake cheesecake.

Did someone say cheesecake? on the trail? in the woods? Who's my friend? Who's my buddy? Actually, IF you're talking about that freeze dried Mountain House or some other pricey dehydrated cheese cake IMO it tastes like crap. At least tempt me with some real New Yawk Style Cheesecake you just hauled back onto the trail from in town. The good stuff!

One of the first things any newbie long distance backpacker realizes is their addiction to food. WHAT? How can you have an addiction to something necessary to life as food? It's actually the addiction to constantly feeling the need to be full from eating and OVEREATING that folks are addicted to. Get over that by gaining a better handle on eating habits. For example, eat trail foods that weigh less and keep you feeling full longer - foods high in fiber, lots of slow burning complex carbohydrate whole grains, lots of "GOOD" fats, drinking plenty of water regularly, etc. Couple those things with hiking with a lighter wt kit, maximizing trail milage for cals burned/consumed(HIKING EFFICIENTLY), resupplying more often, eating in towns more often, etc and it all snowballs for the "NEED TO CARRY LESS."

Hey, you elicited answers from your questions. Now, you want to argue with the answers given? This happens regularly when people ask questions like, "I am having trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that a pack can still weigh so little after adding on EVERYTHING else needed to do a 4--5 day hike", and THEN don't like the answers they get. :)

Like it Tipi! Never thought about dehydrating Amy's Spinach Tofu Wraps. I wouldn't bet against it that you're the first to ever eat dehydrated Tofu Spinach Wraps on the trail. That's was a great tip from Tipi on dehydrating to save on trail food wt!

[Dogwood]

Epoxy like sweet potato soup. Dehydrating soy sausage and Amy's Spinach tofu Wraps. Dancin banana for originality for Tip today. :banana

[Starchild]

I've found that base weight gives bragging rights only, it usually has not much bearing on weight actually carried. there are a few UL'ers out there which this does not apply, but there are swaps many people make to get their base weight down, and it looks good on paper, but the choices they make actual increase actual pack weight.

It is only carry weight that really matters. Mine ranges from 13 lbs to 27 lbs (known because there are a few scales on the AT)

Some examples, going stoveless reduces your base weight, yet may increase your pack weight due to food choices. And my own personal favorite, Aqua Mira may look good on paper for base weight purposes, but when you consider how much water you carry with A.M. on the trail, options like the steripen or sawer squeze filter starts to take pounds off the actual carry weight.

[CalebJ]

Aqua Mira may look good on paper for base weight purposes, but when you consider how much water you carry with A.M. on the trail, options like the steripen or sawer squeze filter starts to take pounds off the actual carry weight.
Can you explain that a little further? Not following you at all.

[Dogwood]

I would strongly contend that those with low base wts overwhelmingly tend to haul lower wt.carried overall!!! You're described scenario would LARGELY be the exception rather than the rule among those w/ low base wts. I agree with you Starchild that base wt bragging rights is a totally ridiculous reason to go lighter wt/UL! It's often fueled by egos and/or high testosterone levels and/or thosde on the merry-go-lite merry-go-round.

NEVER, in all my many U.S. trail miles carried extra water wt due to that virtually 100% of the time when I do treat water it's with AM. I can't see the scenario under which I would be FORCED to carry extra water simply/solely because I chose to treat trail water with AM two part drops rather than a steripen, sawyer squeeze , pump, etc.

Agree w/ the going stoveless CAN CAN save wt IF IF it's done conscientiously. Perhaps, we can have Garlic chime in about that because I think he often goes stoveless. ABSOLUTELY agree w/ you Starchild that sometimes things look ohhh so good on paper for base wt purposes yet in the real world boots on the ground scenarios they turn out to be more problematic.

[Different Socks]

Did someone say cheesecake? on the trail? in the woods? Who's my friend? Who's my buddy? Actually, IF you're talking about that freeze dried Mountain House or some other pricey dehydrated cheese cake IMO it tastes like crap. At least tempt me with some real New Yawk Style Cheesecake you just hauled back onto the trail from in town. The good stuff!

I buy all the Jello no bake cakes from the store shelves. There is actually very many different types: Cheese cake with cherries, strawberries, plain and picjk your pwn on the trail as well as no bake PB cookies and pies.
I'll also habe with me things to bake such as brownies, muffins, corn bread, etc. Even made lasagna and pizza on the trail. Yes, it's heavier but damn well worth the weight.

[Mags]

Help convince and possibly change views of heavy pack hiker.
Why? :) You have a system that obviously works for you.

Or, to put it more colorfully:

“Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and besides it annoys the pig.”― Robert A. Heinlein (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/205.Robert_A_Heinlein)

[Coffee]

I buy all the Jello no bake cakes from the store shelves. There is actually very many different types: Cheese cake with cherries, strawberries, plain and picjk your pwn on the trail as well as no bake PB cookies and pies.

Is there some sort of trick to reconstituting those no bake Jello cheesecakes on trail? I've tried a couple of times only to end up drinking a cheese cakey solution until I got disgusted with it... Never have been able to get the solution to solidify without whipping it (can do that at home but don't carry a whipper or whisk on trail).

[RockDoc]

I've said before that posts on WB and elsewhere give the misleading impression that everybody is going ultralight on the AT. It's actually a small minority, maybe one out of ten. It's just too uncomfortable for most folks...

[garlic08]

Good point, Mags, but the OP seems to think hiking UL is a "claim." It's not a claim; It's an actual fact that some hikers can get in the 10 pound base weight range, can hike 25 miles a day on less than two pounds of food per day, and enjoy doing it.

When I entered the HMW on my NOBO AT hike, my pack base weight was just under 10 pounds and I carried about seven pounds of food for just under four days of hiking. There was plenty of surface water on my hike, so I never carried any, just dip'n'sip when needed. The experience was among the best hiking of my life.

Like Dogwood said above, I've gone stoveless for many seasons. It's not so much a weight savings for everyone, though the way I do it, it definitely is. Going stoveless was the final step to get under the magic 10 pound number. It also increased the enjoyment of my hiking, since I don't drink coffee and I'm a really lousy camp chef. The food I pack does not have much water weight. I'm vegetarian, so I don't carry meat packets. The cheese and nuts I carry are pretty energy-dense with little or no extra water. And what some don't realize is that even if you carry heavier food and your starting weight is heavier, your ending weight is lighter with no stove, pot, or fuel container. That last day walking into a resupply without those things and no food or water is a dream with a sub-10 pound pack. I've made 20 miles before lunch time on days like that.

To load up for a 100 mile hike, I usually carry a few pounds of muesli I make with rolled oats, nuts, and raisins, a few pounds of tortillas, and a couple pounds of cheese, nuts, and/or peanut butter. All these things are available at most markets along the AT, I found. I don't plan meals, I just eat out of the bulk packaging as I hike and when I get about half way I take stock. If I have more than half my food left, I start eating more. If I have less than half left, I start eating less. One way I save weight is on food packaging. I once fit all the garbage from a 170 mile hike w/o resupply into the empty peanut butter jar.

[Different Socks]

"Good point, Mags, but the OP seems to think hiking UL is a "claim." It's not a claim; It's an actual fact that some hikers can get in the 10 pound base weight range, can hike 25 miles a day on less than two pounds of food per day, and enjoy doing it."

I never said that UL people "claim" certain weights, like it's a belief or something, or an unproven fact or that they have to prove themselves doing it. I used the word "claim" b/c that is what they say they have done. I have not yet met any of these UL hikers, so from my pount of view it is a claim, just like reading something in a book.
What is it with this website that there is always certain people that have to pick apart every thing you post?

[Different Socks]

In other words, if I said I have done 50 miles easily, w/o any sleep, carrying only 5 pounds food and gear in just one day, you would believe it to be a "claim" until you've actually met the person that has done it.

[Mags]

What is it with this website that there is always certain people that have to pick apart every thing you post?




Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle :)

[Different Socks]

Is there some sort of trick to reconstituting those no bake Jello cheesecakes on trail? I've tried a couple of times only to end up drinking a cheese cakey solution until I got disgusted with it... Never have been able to get the solution to solidify without whipping it (can do that at home but don't carry a whipper or whisk on trail).

Mags,
I've always made the dessert before I made dinner. Used liquid butter in a bottle for the crust, powdered milk and cold water for the cheesecake mix, then set the cheesecake directly into a pool of water to help solidify it while you eat dinner and clean up. In the future I will use olive oil instead of liquid butter.

[Kookork]

Over the years I have done more simplifying and have done a better job of only packing foods that I know that I will like, even after eating them day after day. For a long hike this diet would give me two pounds of food daily totaling 4180 calories per day:

1 Cliff Builder Bar, assorted flavors: 270 calories
3 Cliff Bars, assorted flavors: 250 calories each
6 Organic Food Bars, assorted flavors: 300 calories each (all ten bars weigh 2.4 ounces)
8 ounces salted mixed nuts: 170 calories per ounce

Three bars for breakfast and dinner, bars and nuts alternated throughout the hiking day every hour. Some of the Organic Food Bars, depending on the flavor, have the equivalent of one serving of fruits or vegetables. No, this diet is not for everyone, but it works for me. I tend to have very even energy throughout the day without the surges and dips some hikers experience and I think this has something to do with the slow drip method I use for eating throughout the day. I don't gorge when I get to trail towns -- I keep eating the same thing. My last two week section hike in the southern Appalachians I ate this way and didn't lose a single pound.
map man
This is a very healthy and practical diet you mentioned. I am really impressed that you did not lose a single pound. Made me think about my AT thru 2014 diet more seriously.

Honestly I am a food lover /good cook/gourmet type of guy that uses stove for the sake of joy and has been hiking stove less enough to know what it offers.
My current weight is 158( down from 188 pounds four month ago) and my ideal weight is 145 , I plan to start my hike weighting around 150 so I don't have more than 5 pounds to spare the whole trail and with many of the diets I have seen and heard and read , hikers lose weight.

Anyone with a diet consisting less than 2 pounds worth of food a day is doomed to lose weight in a 20 plus mile day in long run.

[Malto]

I've said before that posts on WB and elsewhere give the misleading impression that everybody is going ultralight on the AT. It's actually a small minority, maybe one out of ten. It's just too uncomfortable for most folks...

You are overstating it. I would be surprised if it is higher than 1 in 100. I have seen a grand total of 1 other ULer on the AT, Swami. Met about a half dozen on my PCT thru. And almost all of these folks were experienced hikers doing fast hikes with the exception of 1. He was an inexperienced UL hiker that spent too much time on BPL and not enough time on a trail prior to his thru. He was spending his last night on the trail at mile 135 and he was getting off at the next road crossing due to being miserable.

[Traffic Jam]

Breakfast; small portion of real oatmeal (not the instant flavored kind) with nuts and raisins OR a Clif Bar, and instant coffee. Usually the Clif bar is eaten after I've left camp and it takes me an hour or two to get it all down.
Lunch; packet of tuna with crackers and dehydrated fruit OR peanut butter with crackers and fruit (I get the individual peanut butter packets that have a couple tablespoons)
Dinner; dehydrated meal, usually one I made myself as the store-bought ones are too expensive and sometimes the portions are too big and I have to bury the excess (which pisses me off, I hate to waste food)

Maybe 1 snack a day which is usually nuts or a square of chocolate.

I take a sandwich-sized ziploc bag of fast food appropriated salt, pepper, parmesan, hot sauce, red pepper flakes, tea bags, hot chocolate, and coffee.

I only take electrolyte powder or tablets if it's hot.

I also take some whiskey in a water bottle. When it's all gone, I drink water out of the bottle and it has the BEST flavor.

This is obviously inadequate for a thru hiker but it works for me for 4-5 days. I'm experimenting with real, portable, energy-dense foods that are becoming popular with elite-level athletes (don't get the wrong idea, I'm NOT an elite athlete) who find all the gels and bars tiresome and difficult to digest. For anyone wanting to go stoveless, you can find great, healthy recipes in the book, "Feed Zone Portables, A cookbook of On-The-Go Food for Athletes."

[Kookork]

Keep in mind that base weight doesn't include food.

My ideal resupply leg is 100 miles which I will do in three days. I have an eight lb base weight and for this length of hike I would carry about 20,000 calories at departure. That food weight would be about ten lbs giving me a 22 lb total weight at departure which is quite manageable.

As far as food. I would likely have about half my food weight in Maltodextrin with two healthy dose of protein such as Spam lite at days end. The rest would be a mix of sweet and salty junk food. For a through hike I would also include PNB and tortillas and likely dinners such as hamburger helper. My food density normally averages about 125 calories per ounce. I found going higher than that is counterproductive.
Thank you. This is the first comment that the numbers adds up for me. Any average UL hiker with 25 plus mile a day hike burns more than 6000 kcal per day and so any diet consisting less than this number equals weight loss and hence is not sustainable .

[Kookork]

Moveable feast? Dude, you can eat all that food on a 4 or 5 day hike? I will eat less than half that amount of food on the same hike. Each day I eat, 1 pack of instant oatmeal for breakfast, 2 snickers bars for lunch and a mountain house meal for dinner. Other than 2 instant coffee packs, that's it.
numbers moldy? NUMBERS in my calculator does not add up . help me please.

[Traffic Jam]

You don't have to replace every calorie burned. The number of calories needed is also dependent on how many calories are stored in your body. Speed is also a factor. I'm slow so I burn less calories walking the same distance as someone who is fast, even up to half the amount.

[4eyedbuzzard]

So, exactly what base weight, or skin out weight, is considered UL? What is considered SUL? And how are these threshold weights adjusted for winter vs summer or below vs above treeline, AT vs CDT etc.? My base weight trends to be in the 13 to 18 lb range depending upon expected conditions. Cooler weather means a heavier bag, heavier clothing layers, more fuel, etc. Seems to me conditions dictate the gear, but there are no agreed upon thresholds.

[Malto]

So, exactly what base weight, or skin out weight, is considered UL? What is considered SUL? And how are these threshold weights adjusted for winter vs summer or below vs above treeline, AT vs CDT etc.? My base weight trends to be in the 13 to 18 lb range depending upon expected conditions. Cooler weather means a heavier bag, heavier clothing layers, more fuel, etc. Seems to me conditions dictate the gear, but there are no agreed upon thresholds.

UL is a nothing more than a ten lb base weight. It is nothing more complex. If you are only interested in the "badge" as Dogwood mentioned then you can cherry pick your season and location. But I view it more as a set of principles and let the weight fall where it may. I have actually added weight to both my shelter and pad since my thru hike to optimize speed of setup and tear down as well as comfort. Weight is but one factor. Price, comfort, efficiency, location, season etc all factor into the total equation.

[Malto]

You don't have to replace every calorie burned. The number of calories needed is also dependent on how many calories are stored in your body. Speed is also a factor. I'm slow so I burn less calories walking the same distance as someone who is fast, even up to half the amount.

Actually a slower hiker will likely burn more than a faster hiker since they are out longer. Experienced hikers will also burn less calories I believe because they tend to be very efficient. (Watch how little wasted motion there is with more experienced hikers. I saw the difference between AT thru hiker when I lived in GA vs when I see them now in PA.)

Agree completely though with not having to replace every calorie especially on shorter duration trips. I usually will plan to loose one lb a day of hiking. I have pretty much nailed down that I will burn 200 calories per typical mile of hiking (at 200 lbs, total weight.) on short duration trips of five days or less I will restrict calories to 100 calories per mile. This 100 calorie difference will result in a lb a day weight loss. Obviously this is not sustainable on a longer duration hike such as a thru hike.

[Traffic Jam]

[QUOTE=Malto;1828322]Actually a slower hiker will likely burn more than a faster hiker since they are out longer. Experienced hikers will also burn less calories I believe because they tend to be very efficient. (Watch how little wasted motion there is with more experienced hikers. I saw the difference between AT thru hiker when I lived in GA vs when I see them now in PA.)
[/QUOTE

It's possible that walking longer will burn more calories but it depends on weight, efficiency (as you said), and fitness level.

[Leanthree]

My calorie needs are far higher than most people seem to be in this thread. I am younger (27), male and weigh more (190, I'd like to think more muscle than your average 190 lb guy) than you may be but I need at least 5,000 calories a day while hiking 15 miles average, and at that # I have still lost weight on every single hike over 2 days in my life--even after rehydrating. I do a decent job hitting around 125 cal/oz which is 2.5 lbs a day. More than most but I eat it all.

Based on calorie burning tables such as here (http://www.nutristrategy.com/caloriesburnedwalking.htm) plus my basil metabolism, I think I burn somewhere in the 6,200/day range which would require 3.1 lbs/day.

So to answer OP: 13 lb baseweight assuming it was early september, I'd take at least 6 days in the 100 mile wilderness, carry a quart of water most likely (adjusting for recent rain, more in a dry year), so I'd head in there with 30 lbs on my back at least, half of which is food. I would burn about 2.5 lbs of fat in those 6 days because of my calorie deficit, which is about 48 beers.

Olive oil is my go-to calorie dense food. 248 calories per oz. I pour 2 fl oz in my dinner most nights.

[Alligator]

Food needs are highly variable hence not considered in base weight.

As far as not replacing every calorie/operating at a deficit, this may be fine for an individual. However, if someone is interested in a comparison, there needs to be a standard to compare to. For instance, not having left over food at trip's end and not losing any weight. Then the weight of food was sufficient. If you lose weight, you did not have enough food to meet your caloric needs>more food needed. If you gain weight, just because you are hiking does not mean you can eat as much as you want>eat less bring less. If you are reaching the end of the hike and munching on your last Snickers, then you had about the right amount. From there, you might decrease food weight by watching packaging, not buying "wet" food, dehydrating your meals, and picking foods dense in calories on per weight basis.

I divide my food out into daily categories. Breakfast, lunch, pre-dinner (about a 1/2 dinner), dinner, post dinner snacks/dessert, snack breaks (about 150-200 calories an hour roughly), and beverages (tea, cider, hot chocolate, flavored drink mixes). I do this by day. My goal is to not be hungry, that is I have food at the appropriate time, to not end up with excess food at the end of the trip, and to enjoy the foods I eat. Dehydrating my foods is where I find I have helped reduce weight, both in the ingredients and with cooking fuel, while at the same time producing a meal that is tasty. Proper portioning is another. For instance, don't bring a whole jar of peanut butter if you are only having it twice. How much cooking oil do you need, if at all, sugar, salt, spices, etc. What kinds of containers am I packing bulk items in, can I use a smaller one. I "cheat" with quicker resupplies when possible. Suppose I carry 2lbs/day of food. Well, if I can resupply on day 4 of an 8 day trip I will. Otherwise, for four days of an eight day trip I am carrying 8 extra pounds. If it wasn't the AT I wouldn't necessarily do this, but resupply is generally available every 3-5 days. Last I only bring beer on the first night out of resupply, in cans not bottles mind you, and after that it is whiskey only. Even then I may just drink beer in town before picking up my resupply and heading back out.

[Dogwood]

Thank you. This is the first comment that the numbers adds up for me. Any average UL hiker with 25 plus mile a day hike burns more than 6000 kcal per day and so any diet consisting less than this number equals weight loss and hence is not sustainable .

For some, the body adapts to needing less cals to sustain energy levels even for some rather long hikes. It's amazing what our bodies can adapt to on a long distance hike, including the amount of food we eat as measured by cals, total wt of food carried, TOTAL NUTRITION, etc. I know mine does, at least to some degree, at least enough to finish my intended long distance hikes. Therefore, I don't adhere to the cals going in have to match the cals going out for every long distance hiker in all stages of their long distance hikes.

Here is a BIG part of long distance hiking as far as sustainability under the scenario you just described. CHANGE the scenario. Those who regularly complete long distance hikes have learned to manage themselves and their hikes in ways that are individually right for them. Trail diets aren't written in stone. And, as Alligator stated food needs can be highly variable so making blanket nutritional statements should only be taken in general terms. A long distance hiker does not have to have the same trail diet or consume the same number of daily cals throughout all stages of their hikes. If something is lacking, like number of daily cals needed, it's easy enough to tweak trail diets to reflect those needs. For example, if in the later stages of a hike and I feel I'm not getting the total nutrition in my trail diet I need I tweak it. AND, I would like to emphasize that long distance unsupported trail diets ARE NOT simply about getting calories. IMHO, that's a HUGE misconception of many in the hiking community, even experienced hikers/speed hikers/ULers, etc

[Whack-a-mole]

For the jello no bake cheese cake, go ahead and buy a graham cracker crust and take it instead of the one in the box. Powdered milk is ok, but a can of condensed milk works better. Build a cairn of rocks in the creek to set the pan on to cool. It's not to hard to make this if you think about it a little. If you can't stand the thought of carrying a small empty can for a couple days, then you don't get any cheesecake and just eat your reconstituted cardboard cliff bars.

[Dogwood]

UL is a nothing more than a ten lb base weight. It is nothing more complex. If you are only interested in the "badge" as Dogwood mentioned then you can cherry pick your season and location. But I view it more as a set of principles and let the weight fall where it may. I have actually added weight to both my shelter and pad since my thru hike to optimize speed of setup and tear down as well as comfort. Weight is but one factor. Price, comfort, efficiency, location, season etc all factor into the total equation.

As far as Big 4 wt it actually is usually under 4 lbs under the scenario that I described earlier. But, as far as the "badge" label being put on that Big 4 wt I don't care. I don't post that to compare it to anyone else. That's not my goal. I genuinely post that because I want you to know what it allows FOR ME. It allows me to carry two pr socks, two tees, a merino beanie, nylon gloves, bandana, sunglasses, some hygiene products, 6-8 oz of supplements, virtually all the time. It allows me to not be a gram weenie with my stove fuel if I don't want to. It allows me to add in some fresh produce into the trail diet - ALL If and When I feel the need. It's about the total equation. The total kit, NOT about being a gram weenie with every single hiking decision. And, so much is constantly changing constantly evolving. This is why you'll never see me post a total kit and oz/gram wts. I've never had the exact same kit on any two long distance hikes. I've never had the same kit during the total time on any one long distance hike. Posting kits and gear wts are dubious to me.

[MuddyWaters]

UL is a 10 lb baseweight, or less, whilehaving everything you need to be comfortable, dry, and safe.
It is simple to achieve.
For 3 seasons in the mountains, conditions including prolonged rain, and temps down to freezing, even 8 lb baseweight is fairly easy to achieve
You dont give anything up. You arent uncomfortable.
Today, its mostly about buying the lightwt gear, not making it or doing without.
Lack of desire to spend $$$ to replace gear already owned, will keep most from ever lightening their packs that much.

It has nothing to do with the food you carry, except that you are able to move faster, farther, easier.
Its simply taking the lightest gear that will do the job, and taking only what you need, nothing you dont.
Its a mindset. Its a progression.

Once your pack is light enough, you can take a few luxuries, and not even worry about it.

[map man]

map man
This is a very healthy and practical diet you mentioned. I am really impressed that you did not lose a single pound. Made me think about my AT thru 2014 diet more seriously.

Honestly I am a food lover /good cook/gourmet type of guy that uses stove for the sake of joy and has been hiking stove less enough to know what it offers.
My current weight is 158( down from 188 pounds four month ago) and my ideal weight is 145 , I plan to start my hike weighting around 150 so I don't have more than 5 pounds to spare the whole trail and with many of the diets I have seen and heard and read , hikers lose weight.

Anyone with a diet consisting less than 2 pounds worth of food a day is doomed to lose weight in a 20 plus mile day in long run.

Just to clarify, that two week no-weight-loss hike (actually 13 days) I averaged 15 miles per day from Damascus to Hot Springs -- I am 6'0", 165 pounds. If I had been doing 20-25 miles per day I would have needed more than the 4200 calories/day. Also, that May hike the temps were near optimal for hiking so I wasn't having to burn many extra calories heating up or cooling down my body.

[Coffee]

The number of calories required for a lighter person is less than required for a heavier person. The takeaway being that if a hiker starts out on a thru hike and loses 20 pounds over the first month or two, the remaining daily caloric intake requirements to maintain the lower weight is reduced from what it was at the start of the hike. Anyone who has ever been on a diet understands that the initial weight loss is easier than losing weight later in the process. A person 100 pounds overweight will have a much easier time dropping the first fifty pounds than the second fifty pounds. What I'm trying to suggest is that the body has a self regulating process and weight loss is not likely to be linear even holding the number of calories consumed constant.

With all that being said, I am personally concerned about maintaining my weight on a 5-6 month thru hike because I don't have a large amount of extra weight to start with and my trail diet does result in weight loss since I burn well over 3,000 to 3,500 calories per day. I know how to pack calorie dense foods if I carefully plan in advance but not so much if I resupply in small stores with whatever is available. Since I want to transition toward resupplying mostly in stores rather than mail drops before I hike the PCT, I have some thinking to do on this subject.

[Malto]

The number of calories required for a lighter person is less than required for a heavier person. The takeaway being that if a hiker starts out on a thru hike and loses 20 pounds over the first month or two, the remaining daily caloric intake requirements to maintain the lower weight is reduced from what it was at the start of the hike. Anyone who has ever been on a diet understands that the initial weight loss is easier than losing weight later in the process. A person 100 pounds overweight will have a much easier time dropping the first fifty pounds than the second fifty pounds. What I'm trying to suggest is that the body has a self regulating process and weight loss is not likely to be linear even holding the number of calories consumed constant.

With all that being said, I am personally concerned about maintaining my weight on a 5-6 month thru hike because I don't have a large amount of extra weight to start with and my trail diet does result in weight loss since I burn well over 3,000 to 3,500 calories per day. I know how to pack calorie dense foods if I carefully plan in advance but not so much if I resupply in small stores with whatever is available. Since I want to transition toward resupplying mostly in stores rather than mail drops before I hike the PCT, I have some thinking to do on this subject.

I had the same goal on the PCT. I started at my absolute ideal weight 187 and hit 175 by Tahoe even though i was eating 5000-6000 calories per day. (I was also on a fast pace and hit KM on day 25.) I bumped up the calories to roughly 200 calories per mile after Tahoe and finished the last 1500 miles only losing a single lb. I believe most hikers lose the majority of their weight early. then three factors combine to cause the weight to plateau. They eat more, they burn less due to reduced weight and they burn less because they hike more efficiently with less wasted motion.

[Kookork]

For some, the body adapts to needing less cals to sustain energy levels even for some rather long hikes. It's amazing what our bodies can adapt to on a long distance hike, including the amount of food we eat as measured by cals, total wt of food carried, TOTAL NUTRITION, etc. I know mine does, at least to some degree, at least enough to finish my intended long distance hikes. Therefore, I don't adhere to the cals going in have to match the cals going out for every long distance hiker in all stages of their long distance hikes.

Here is a BIG part of long distance hiking as far as sustainability under the scenario you just described. CHANGE the scenario. Those who regularly complete long distance hikes have learned to manage themselves and their hikes in ways that are individually right for them. Trail diets aren't written in stone. And, as Alligator stated food needs can be highly variable so making blanket nutritional statements should only be taken in general terms. A long distance hiker does not have to have the same trail diet or consume the same number of daily cals throughout all stages of their hikes. If something is lacking, like number of daily cals needed, it's easy enough to tweak trail diets to reflect those needs. For example, if in the later stages of a hike and I feel I'm not getting the total nutrition in my trail diet I need I tweak it. AND, I would like to emphasize that long distance unsupported trail diets ARE NOT simply about getting calories. IMHO, that's a HUGE misconception of many in the hiking community, even experienced hikers/speed hikers/ULers, etc


Just to clarify, that two week no-weight-loss hike (actually 13 days) I averaged 15 miles per day from Damascus to Hot Springs -- I am 6'0", 165 pounds. If I had been doing 20-25 miles per day I would have needed more than the 4200 calories/day. Also, that May hike the temps were near optimal for hiking so I wasn't having to burn many extra calories heating up or cooling down my body.


The number of calories required for a lighter person is less than required for a heavier person. The takeaway being that if a hiker starts out on a thru hike and loses 20 pounds over the first month or two, the remaining daily caloric intake requirements to maintain the lower weight is reduced from what it was at the start of the hike. Anyone who has ever been on a diet understands that the initial weight loss is easier than losing weight later in the process. A person 100 pounds overweight will have a much easier time dropping the first fifty pounds than the second fifty pounds. What I'm trying to suggest is that the body has a self regulating process and weight loss is not likely to be linear even holding the number of calories consumed constant.

With all that being said, I am personally concerned about maintaining my weight on a 5-6 month thru hike because I don't have a large amount of extra weight to start with and my trail diet does result in weight loss since I burn well over 3,000 to 3,500 calories per day. I know how to pack calorie dense foods if I carefully plan in advance but not so much if I resupply in small stores with whatever is available. Since I want to transition toward resupplying mostly in stores rather than mail drops before I hike the PCT, I have some thinking to do on this subject.

Oh Brother, Trust me if I say I know about the phenomenal adaptation of human body and specially hikers. I personally have my own way of regulating my pace of body loss/ gain?? . I pinch the fat I have over my six pack( which is buried under the fat layer most of the year!!) and can say how many more weeks I can count on my reserved body fat. I know that I lose weight faster early on and then it slows down and finally it almost stops for me. I get your message loud and clear and appreciate it .

What it boils down for me is the fact that UL hikers mostly start to save the weight of their pack before food and water. I know that because they are lighter they normally hike faster / longer/further so 100 mile wilderness is a 3 to 4 day trip for them vs 5 to 7 days trip for average hikers so they carry less food and hence less weight.

But their cliff bar weighs exact like mine and their M&M does not have more calorie than mine . They on average burn more calorie just because they cover more mileage. They are normally more efficient in burning calorie per mile than average hiker.

For me UL is not a claim. it is a way of hike that exist and would be more popular as times go by .

I am a hiker who has been carrying 50 plus backpacks on long distance hikes/hunting and now has a base weight of 15 . For me it is not the best time to focus on 5 pound difference ( from 15 to under 10) but I might in the future.

Transition from 35 to 15 base weight did not come out of luxury but out of necessity so from 15 to 10 is a possibility in the future , who knows, just right now I am content with what I carry and I am sure being content is more than enough for me.

[Kookork]

Thank you map man

your scenario suits my normal pace of hiking at the beginning of my hike and so might work for me.

[garlic08]

Oh Brother, Trust me if I say I know about the phenomenal adaptation of human body and specially hikers. I personally have my own way of regulating my pace of body loss/ gain?? . I pinch the fat I have over my six pack( which is buried under the fat layer most of the year!!) and can say how many more weeks I can count on my reserved body fat. I know that I lose weight faster early on and then it slows down and finally it almost stops for me. I get your message loud and clear and appreciate it....

I monitor my body fat the same way, and either change my pace or my diet accordingly. It worked well for me on the AT. I started in optimum hiking condition, lost a few pounds before Damascus, started eating more in VA, actually gained weight before the Whites, then lost that in the Whites and ended at the same weight I started. That was with my 4000+ cal/day cookless diet. I don't need much more than that.

[CalebJ]

Moveable feast? Dude, you can eat all that food on a 4 or 5 day hike? I will eat less than half that amount of food on the same hike. Each day I eat, 1 pack of instant oatmeal for breakfast, 2 snickers bars for lunch and a mountain house meal for dinner. Other than 2 instant coffee packs, that's it.
That's less than 1800 calories. No big deal if you're only going out for a few low mileage days (though most of us would be -very- hungry). More/longer days and you'll be hemorrhaging weight at an unsafe rate.

[juma]

this is the correct hikerman answer. maybe 4 packs of coffee.

[juma]

yes dude, helping the oversupplied get their weight down is part of the equation.

[Starchild]

Can you explain that a little further? Not following you at all.

If water is commonly obtainable along the trail (as it is on the AT), there is little reason to carry much water, selecting the method that tends to have you carry the least amount of water far outweighs the weight of the purification method. Aquamira requires a wait time, which the full amount of water must be carried or one must wait at the source, A typical dose is 1 L. So that's the 20-35 minute wait time carrying the full 1L of water. Compare that to the 2.5 oz steripen (freedom), where you (well I) typically only carry 1/2 a L and you drink some right a the source. So you go away from the stream with carrying maybe 1/3 a L +2.5 oz device, compared to 1L with AM.

Again it is a swap with base weight vs consumable weight, and in this case what it lends itself to. In the case of AM you carry more water, the steripen encourages to carry as little as needed, and also drink what you need.

Now as water sources become further apart and unreliable that advantage seems to go away or is diminished.

So the point is that people who really want to get their base weight down sometimes have higher consumable weight, and a heavier pack.

[Coffee]

So that's the 20-35 minute wait time carrying the full 1L of water.

There is only a fifteen minute wait time once the premix solution is ready. I have a very small bottle that I use to premix the Aquamira for the next water source right after adding the already premixed solution at the current water source. By doing so, I eliminate that five minute wait time. My typical habit is to carry two 700 ml smart water bottles but I usually only travel with just over 700 ml. When the bottle I'm using drops to the point where there is only a few ounces remaining, I will fill the other 700 ml bottle with water, add the already premixed AM, premix the AM for the next water source, and immediately move on. I will usually have saved a few ounces in my already treated bottle in case I'm thirsty before the 15 minute waiting period is up. I do agree that the main downside to AM is not being able to "tank up" at water sources without a wait. Sometimes I deal with this by taking a lunch break near the water source.

[CalebJ]

At least around here, I can't imagine carrying less than 1L of water in the summer no matter what method you use. That's enough to easily cover 10 miles (not a terribly unusual distance between water sources when it's hot). If there's some left when I get to the next water source I can drink it and refill with premixed AM while barely breaking stride.

Steripen's work fine in general usage, but I have an aversion to relying on battery powered devices for survival. Probably an unreasonable fear...

[Dogwood]

Starchild, after having to read your last post 1/2 dozen times to grasp your perspective, and feeling like I was trying to understand how to sing Jingle Bells in Chinese, I finally understand where you are coming from with your contention that treating water with AM(two part drops) encourages one to carry more water than a Steripen. I get the wait time issue treating with AM EXACTLY according to AM directions but still don't buy into the idea that it encourages carrying extra water. Even IF I was to treat with a Steripen I would still carry the same amt of water as if I had treated with AM(two part drops) - enough water to get me to my next anticipated water supply. :) I'll let you in on another secret. I don't always wait the entire 5 min reaction time of the two parts nor the added 15 mins once adding the two part mix to the water being treated. What really saves me time treating my water with AM though is that I tend to treat backcountry water only 10 % of the time in the continental U.S. Sometimes, I treat it even less. BUT, the water treating is BEST left for another thread. Shhhh, we don't want Colter to hear us. :D

[Dogwood]

Ohh, with the two part AM mix I usually add a greater mixed volume in the mixing cap to the water being treated than what AM recommends. Maybe, that helps reducing treatment time?