View Full Version : Feet Experts please
toblazeornottoblaze
12-27-2013, 15:16
To start off with, I have found this forum to be awesome and has put me light years ahead in gear just by reading posts.....so with that I need expert help. After reading trail runner vs hiking boot theories I ran and bought a pair of trailrunners (NB 510 V2 $49.00 at Dicks Sporting Goods) with little cushion. I have REI light merino socks. Starting APRL 1 NOBO and im freaking that when my feet get wet my feet will freeze. One wrote on a forum just to wear thin socks (not wool) cause they will dry faster and keep you warm. I thought wool keeps its warmth properties even when wet.
Im also using a compression base layer from ebay that comes from Korea. Any experience with them?
(Sportsskinworld)
If you keep moving with wet feet in the April cold, your feet won't normally freeze. The heat you generate will keep them from freezing. Now, if the temp goes below zero or you walk in deep snow it's possible to freeze your feet. if this bothers you bring some extra wool socks. If your feet get wet in cold weather keep moving.
While the forums have good information, yadda, yadda, yadda, you really seem to be asking if YOU will be safe and comfortable in this footwear. Since you now already own the shoes, why not try an experiment? Go somewhere cold for a weekend, get the shoes wet, and hike in them. Take a few different pairs of socks, and see which work best in the cold and damp. Some questions can really only be answered by experience, and your answers may be very different from mine.
FarmerChef
12-27-2013, 18:00
Here's what I recommend as an experienced cold weather hiker who hikes in lightweight, minimalist trail runners (read: gets wet easily). When hiking in the snow, rain or standing/flowing water your feet will get wet. In snow or rain it will take longer than a step in a puddle or stream. You will notice that it is much colder when you step in the stream than when walking along, even with your feet soaking wet. Your body heat will warm your feet, the socks and the shoe, even below freezing. Wool socks in this scenario are a must as cotton socks will offer little comfort and will not dry quickly when you're back on dry ground. For winter hiking (heck, even for summer) I recommend Darn Tough wool socks and not the thin ones. I have hiked miles in soaking wet feet with temps below 30 and, as long as we were moving, my feet were warm and reasonably comfortable. Have a second pair or at least a dry pair for when you get into camp and remember to untie your shoes and pull the tongue out to keep it from freezing so tight you can't get your foot into them.
Alpha3168
12-27-2013, 18:17
This is Alpha am planning a thru hike 25 feb at springer. I'm a big trail runner guy and currently doing heavy training in the trails of Utah 13 miles a day with 30 lbs. Believe it or not I use trail runner shoes with good inserts. Yes even in the snow and rain with light high quality runner toe socks. I have absolutely no probs. The key to all this stuff is to train now no matter the weather conditions so when you get to the AT your feet will be ready and no surprises. Also ultra runners shoes are one full size larger for toe room, also I lube my toes with baby rash lube it stays on longer. Also when you start using a pack you will get hot spots, I just use duct tape. I know some of this sounds strange but it is proven. I do wear out my shoes every 350 miles so on a thru I will go thru 5 pair of shoes. The most important thing is comfortable no blister feet!
I thruhiked this past year and made it the entire way without a single blister. Here is what worked for me:
Brooks Cascadia 8 (used three pairs, one pair lasted 1200 miles!)
Green Super Feet insert
InjiInjji toe liner socks
Darn Tough wool sock (the ATC ones :) )
I would ALWAYS switch into my camp socks when finished hiking for the day. I would also let my feet breathe for about an hour before putting the camp socks on.
I knew a few hikers who started with thin trail runners and they switched out to regular trail runners by NC. I'd be surprised to hear of a thruhiker going the entire way in a thin soled shoe. I'm not saying it is impossible, but I cannot imagine the pain your feet would be in.
By the time I reached Maine, it was torture to get out of my tent and stand up. My feet felt bruised, almost as if Mike Tyson had gone a couple rounds on the bottoms of my feet.
Before my hike I walked a lot with my pack on. I would walk around my neighborhood, climb stairs in a parking garage or go for a hike on the weekend. I would also do a few laps around my block barefoot but with my pack on.
I also read a book called Fixing Your Feet before my thruhike. I learned so much about foot care for the endurance athlete.
http://www.amazon.com/Fixing-Your-Feet-Prevention-Treatments/dp/0899976387/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1388183039&sr=8-1&keywords=fixing+your+feet
Best of luck!!
toblazeornottoblaze
12-27-2013, 20:12
Thank you all...it makes a little more sense. I'm gonna take Bobp's advice and go for a walk with wet shoes and Moreno socks. Also the advice of walking barefoot. I will report back with my findings. I will check out those sock you all are raving about if my REI Moreno socks don't cut it.
garlic08
12-27-2013, 20:38
One trick I used in wet snow on my AT hike (several days worth) was "bagtex." A couple of bread bags or plastic grocery bags, over the socks and under the shoes, can improve a cold morning considerably. You need to be careful about hiking all day in plastic--your skin might macerate.
I've found in some dry winter conditions my feet are actually warmer in trail runners than in leather boots. I usually have improved motion and circulation in lighter shoes. I make quite a lot of winter trips in light shoes.
fireneck
12-29-2013, 03:47
Not exactly on topic but has work for me..... throw on a pair of nylon liner socks (think cycling socks) to cut down on blisters.
kidchill
12-29-2013, 08:57
A lot of good info already here. I can't tell you what you'll see in terms of weather (I was SOBO starting in July), but I can tell you my experience after Superstorm Sandy...I got pinned down in Pearisburg for a couple of days, there's a good climb coming out of there. By the time I was at the top, there were 2-3ft snowdrifts! I was in trail runners and boardshorts! That had to be one of the most uncomfortable 20miles ever! My feet were wet and frozen all day! I switched into camp socks for sleeping at the end of the day, but I didn't sleep with my hiking socks in my bag, so putting on frozen socks in the morning hurt like hell! Those first 5 miles were almost unbearable, I just kept going. Now, I had 3 pairs of socks. Basically one to sleep in and 2 to hike in, but I learned early on that you don't want to sacrifice a pair of socks on the first day out of town! Save those puppies for day 4 or 5! On the flip side, that was really the ONLY day that I wished I had gortex runners or boots. Look, every choice you make is a trade-off. It's all risk vs reward. The reward was 2164 miles of lightweight shoes that dried fast...the risk? 20 miles of the most painful hiking ever! IMO, if I were to see more snow then just a day, I would have had gortex or maybe lightweight boots. But, that day after Sandy is really the only one that I wished I had something different. Yes, there was snow and ice in the Smokeys, but it had been blazed, so my feet didn't get soaked.
squeezebox
12-29-2013, 09:03
Elastic knee highs as liner socks, The support helps a lot with leg fatigue.
SunnyWalker
12-29-2013, 09:43
I found this a very helpful book: Fixing your feet: Prevention and Treatments for Athletes, by Jon Vonhof. I bought it on Amazon.com for my Kindle.
bigcranky
12-29-2013, 11:42
I always wear wool socks. They keep my feet warm even when I step into a puddle or when it's raining all day. When I stop I change into dry wool camp/sleeping socks.
Yes, your feet will get wet in the trail runners. But they'll dry quickly, too, much more so than full leather boots. Both trail runners and boots are viable options for a thru-hike, so it really comes down to personal preference. You could try wearing them around in the cold rain this winter at home.
I thruhiked this past year and made it the entire way without a single blister. Here is what worked for me:
Brooks Cascadia 8 (used three pairs, one pair lasted 1200 miles!)
Green Super Feet insert
InjiInjji toe liner socks
Darn Tough wool sock (the ATC ones :) )
I would ALWAYS switch into my camp socks when finished hiking for the day. I would also let my feet breathe for about an hour before putting the camp socks on.
I knew a few hikers who started with thin trail runners and they switched out to regular trail runners by NC. I'd be surprised to hear of a thruhiker going the entire way in a thin soled shoe. I'm not saying it is impossible, but I cannot imagine the pain your feet would be in.
By the time I reached Maine, it was torture to get out of my tent and stand up. My feet felt bruised, almost as if Mike Tyson had gone a couple rounds on the bottoms of my feet.
Before my hike I walked a lot with my pack on. I would walk around my neighborhood, climb stairs in a parking garage or go for a hike on the weekend. I would also do a few laps around my block barefoot but with my pack on.
I also read a book called Fixing Your Feet before my thruhike. I learned so much about foot care for the endurance athlete.
http://www.amazon.com/Fixing-Your-Feet-Prevention-Treatments/dp/0899976387/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1388183039&sr=8-1&keywords=fixing+your+feet
Best of luck!!
I suspect the two bolded statements are related. Trail runners will NOT last 1200 miles. They could look perfectly new but they will be internally trashed and cause foot and/or knee problems.
toblazeornottoblaze
12-29-2013, 19:17
Thanks again!
lonehiker
12-29-2013, 21:31
My experience with trail runners is that they are good for about 700 miles give or take. My Darn Tough socks would last longer than a pair of shoes (about 1,000 miles).
taking several pairs of extra socks is much lighter than lifting a hiking boot with each foot on every step.
I admittedly push the limits of my La Sportiva trail shoes - - I post holed deep wet snow from MA to NY
in a pair (all of CT) about 2 years ago and recently did about 60 miles of wet snow NC hiking in similar
non-gore tex trail shoes. Yes, my feet get wet but they stay pretty warm (down to the high teens) and
even if they are cold, they are usually not numb and feel "safe." I do have boots and even big snow boots
but I really prefer trail runners unless I know that the snow is going to be deep and the weather will be
undeniably cold.
I do also carry down booties and spare socks only for sleeping. I carefully dry the cold wet feet, put on the
dry smart-wools (in the dry-sack with the down booties) - - - while in the down booties and dry smart-wools,
my feet have never been cold- - even well below 0 ambient temp plus wind.
Cheers.
It was below 30 and super wet my first night in Gooch Gap..... left my socks out to dry and they froze to the tree..... lol.
fredmugs
12-30-2013, 19:33
I do most of my hiking trips in Merrill Moab Ventilators. I own a pair of NB 610s that I day hike in locally and there's no way I would wear them on any hike with a full pack. Your feet will take a beating on the rocks and roots.
I own some Darn Tough socks but haven't taken them on a longer hike yet but I plan to.
Don's Brother
12-31-2013, 00:37
On my 2013 thru-hike I used four pairs of Brooks Cascadia trail runners. Several other hikers were wearing the same shoe. Salad Days has already posted here. I had no problems with my feet at any time. I used Smart Wool socks and Green Superfeet liners as well. One thing I did without failure was to coat my feet with Vaseline EVERY day. I had zero blisters even when my feet got very wet. The only time they got cold was walking through water in NH in July. The ice and snow early in the hike (I started on March 23) didn't bother my feet. I did make sure I dried the shoes well when I was in towns, which was often.
Wise Old Owl
12-31-2013, 00:56
Barefoot Sister wrote several books and to be honest - they took twice as long to cover the same distances. Hense, five finger Vibram isn't my thing when it comes to stubbing or breaking a toe.
http://www.amazon.com/Barefoot-Sisters-Walking-Adventures-Appalachian/dp/081173529X/ref=pd_sim_b_1
Here is some honest advice, and I agree with most of the posts above hit the trails now and test out your theory. But know this - I have been hiking since I was ten - that's some 40 years, my recent new Podiatrist, told me there is 0 fat in the pads of my feet - Long term a Smart wool thick sock (polypropylene) mixed with other fibers and zero cotton is the way to go, it adds the cushion we need. Many here hang on to their socks and shoe's way too long... It is not unheard of that trail runners last 1/3 the trip of the AT - New Balance wears out quick two! I replaced mine when the tread disappeared - that was annually. This thin sock/Gortex has me in knots... I don't get it - I am clearly old school Its your feet - go forth....
don't know if you've left the building toblazeornottoblaze but I'll throw some more BS at you if you're still listening. You live in Augusta GA. That's not that far from Springer Mt. You should know what the weather can be like when you start on Apr 1. That's a weather transitioning period on a NOBO AT thru starting at Springer between Apr 1 to about mid/late May. It's not unusual for it to get cold enough to snow in Apr in northern GA. During April going into June it WILL BE WET at times. It will get down into the teens, at times perhaps even low teens, in Apr. It wouldn't be that unusual to experience day time highs around the freezing mark one day followed by a day or two in the 60's followed up by another day with day time highs around the freezing mark where you experience flurries followed up by days of rain all in April. Doubt my word ask those that thrued the AT NOBO last yr what they experienced going into the Smokies. Yet you believe someone who says you'll be fine(you will not have cold feet or potentially frozen trail runners) starting out on the AT Apr 1 with those rather thin soled non wp non insulated trail runners, thin uninsulated stock inner soles(they are shart!), and a thin synthetic sock. That's a foot gear system that might be more applicable to higher mileage days during fairer weather like during summer.
You might at the very least consider throwing some bread bags over the socks as Garlic has suggested. And/Or, try merino socks for warmth while wet at least at the potential cold start of your anticipated hike. You have to grasp that you, the hike, the weather, and conditions are going to evolve going to change as you get further and further into your hike. Look at your thru in stages. The beginning stage say from Apr 1 to June 1 being one stage. Within that stage are smaller stages even still. You''ll be out of your element the first wk or two. Comfort zones will have to change rapidly during the earliest stage particularly if this is your first long distance hike. What your priorities are as far as what's happening on your feet will change as other things change. It's easy enough to understand that it could very well get cold or be cold at times in Apr. Much different the weather will be(and stay), and hence the foot priorities, once June rolls around.
This is Alpha am planning a thru hike 25 feb at springer. I'm a big trail runner guy and currently doing heavy training in the trails of Utah 13 miles a day with 30 lbs. Believe it or not I use trail runner shoes with good inserts. Yes even in the snow and rain with light high quality runner toe socks. I have absolutely no probs. The key to all this stuff is to train now no matter the weather conditions so when you get to the AT your feet will be ready and no surprises....
You're doing a lot of things right IMHO Alpha. However, one thing that I think you may be getting incorrect. Going out on day work outs or even some overnighters in central Utah going home or back to the car is one thing(you may be experiencing smooth sailing as far as foot comfort) but it is another thing having to live on the trail and in your wet trail runners day after day after day wk after wk month after month. Recognize the difference. They are not the same.
Totally agree with Malto. I can't see anyone going 1200 AT trail miles in Brooks Cascadia 8's at least not without shoe performance falling WAY OFF. Shoe performance falling off especially when it comes to light wt trail runners COULD definitely relate to a hiker's trail performance falling off.
I also think WOO made two excellent pts; "...cushion we need." and "Many hang on to their socks and shoe's way too long..."
How one gets that cushion could be different for different folks wanting to do different things. Personally, my cushioning underfoot begins with shoe selection and is tweaked with after market orthotics and various socks.
BTW, the only expertise I could possibly have is that I have expertly done so many things incorrectly and incompletely. Sometimes, you learn "stuff" by learning from questionable choices you have made.
At the risk of going off topic: I plan on doing some LD hiking soon. In the past I have worn light leather boots (e.g. Vasque Sundowners) with a polypro liner sock and light wool over socks. I'm researching moving to low cut/trail runner shoes but don't have any experience there. What are popular trail runner models and how do they differ from running shoes? Any recommendations on socks? Is polypro + wool overkill for trail runners? Single pair of medium weight polypro or single pair of light wool + foot powder/lubricant, etc.? Where are Darn Tough socks sold? Also, opinions on need for gaiters with low cut shoes? TIA.
Wise Old Owl
12-31-2013, 17:34
Hikemor - Appears darn tough is at Rei and Backcountry click on the link type a zip under find a store.
http://darntough.com/
FarmerChef
12-31-2013, 18:14
Totally agree with Malto. I can't see anyone going 1200 AT trail miles in Brooks Cascadia 8's at least not without shoe performance falling WAY OFF. Shoe performance falling off especially when it comes to light wt trail runners COULD definitely relate to a hiker's trail performance falling off.
I also think WOO made two excellent pts; "...cushion we need." and "Many hang on to their socks and shoe's way too long..."
How one gets that cushion could be different for different folks wanting to do different things. Personally, my cushioning underfoot begins with shoe selection and is tweaked with after market orthotics and various socks.
I agree with WOO and Dogwood. I use trail runners exclusively on the trail but they do wear out fast. I mean wicked fast. The trade off for me is comfort. In the winter, I add thick merino socks (Darn Tough) to keep my feet warm KNOWING they will get wet and stay that way. As in 4 or 5 days straight of wet shoes. Sometimes (and I mean sometimes) I can dry my shoes by the fire but that's rare. Most of the time, I'm putting wet socks and shoes on in the morning. But with merino, after a mile or so, my feet are warm again.
Alpha3168
12-31-2013, 18:50
Appreciate the input, being a retired special forces soldier, have been in conditions you would not believe. My shoes and socks are dry every morning cuz i sleep with them in my bag. There are other survival tricks i use as well.
Appreciate the input, being a retired special forces soldier, have been in conditions you would not believe. My shoes and socks are dry every morning cuz i sleep with them in my bag. There are other survival tricks i use as well.
I betcha in the military you never marched 2000 miles over a mountain range without backup logistical and tactical support having everything needed for survival on you and your back by yourself. What's the longest duration being out on a march/mission in consistent foul weather you have done? by yourself?
The military survival skills, as well as the mental and physical toughness you've earned, will definitely help on a multi month 2000 + mile day after day wk after wk month after month unsupported thru-hike(march) but do grasp a lengthy AT thru-hike is a more independent individualistic, perhaps longer term hike hike hike hike hike situation, than most military special forces missions. The situation, and mindset, of a thru-hike, is different in several ways than being in the military on a special forces mission. Do not let the military mindset, IN SOME WAYS, interfere with completing an AT thru-hike. There are similarities, AS WELL AS SOME NOTABLE DIFFERENCES, between the two endeavors and will most likely factor into your anticipated AT thru-hike. TRY to understand how a thru-hike situation will be different in some ways and make the proper adjustments. Perhaps, many of those adjustments will have to entail you doing more things your way. Flip the mental light switch. Respectfully, a thru-hike is NOT a military special forces team effort.
I think it fair to say your military bag was not made of a flimsy nylon(taffeta) shell, high end goose down insulation, and overall light wt. If you thru-hike with a goose down bag, and you might learn to appreciate one for it's high compactability(low volume) and light wt, you may find bringing wet shoes into your sleeping bag will affect the sleeping bag's performance.
For what it might be worth to you, thank you for your service. Have a great hike.
lonehiker
01-01-2014, 00:40
I have never liked the idea of drying my socks inside my sleeping bag. The water has to go someplace and that place is into the insulation of your bag. I would rather put on cold wet socks that within a mile are warm wet socks :)
I betcha in the military you never marched 2000 miles over a mountain range without backup logistical and tactical support having everything needed for survival on you and your back by yourself. What's the longest duration being out on a march/mission in consistent foul weather you have done? by yourself?
The military survival skills, as well as the mental and physical toughness you've earned, will definitely help on a multi month 2000 + mile day after day wk after wk month after month unsupported thru-hike(march) but do grasp a lengthy AT thru-hike is a more independent individualistic, perhaps longer term hike hike hike hike hike situation, than most military special forces missions. The situation, and mindset, of a thru-hike, is different in several ways than being in the military on a special forces mission. Do not let the military mindset, IN SOME WAYS, interfere with completing an AT thru-hike. There are similarities, AS WELL AS SOME NOTABLE DIFFERENCES, between the two endeavors and will most likely factor into your anticipated AT thru-hike. TRY to understand how a thru-hike situation will be different in some ways and make the proper adjustments. Perhaps, many of those adjustments will have to entail you doing more things your way. Flip the mental light switch. Respectfully, a thru-hike is NOT a military special forces team effort.
I think it fair to say your military bag was not made of a flimsy nylon(taffeta) shell, high end goose down insulation, and overall light wt. If you thru-hike with a goose down bag, and you might learn to appreciate one for it's high compactability(low volume) and light wt, you may find bringing wet shoes into your sleeping bag will affect the sleeping bag's performance.
For what it might be worth to you, thank you for your service. Have a great hike.
Really? Are hikers really unsupported when they run into town every couple of days for warm food and dry bed. And if the weather is crappy, AT hikers will kill time in a shelter. The military has no such luxury. While I agree with some of your later points such as keeping wet gear in your bag, you are off base with that comment.
Going a bit off-topic here, but still foot related...
Does anyone have experience dealing with a Morton's Neuroma (or 2 or 3) while thru-hiking? If so, I'd love to receive advice, tips, and strategies...
booney_1
01-03-2014, 18:18
bread bags over socks...this is a cheap way of keeping feet dry and warm (it's a VBL vapor barrier liner). Millions of kids who grew up in the cold and snow up north have used this over the years. If you don't like hiking in them, at least put them on when you are standing around in camp. There are expensive ways to do this with things like seal skinz socks.
I don't have any direct experience with them. I grew up camping year around in update NY....I don't like the idea of trying to hike in trail runners in the late winter in NC (where I live now), without a way to keep your feet dry. I would also suggest some type of simple gator to keep snow from going into the top of your sneakers (trail runners). Bring extra socks...repeat...bring extra socks....bring extra socks.
shoes in sleeping bag....nobody suggests putting wet/dirty shoes straight into sleeping bag....bring along a large plastic bag for them..stick them down in the bottom of the bag...or if you must...put them outside the bag, but push them under one side. There is very little worse than prying open frozen boots and jamming your feet in them. It takes a while to warm them and your feet up. (I learned this lesson at age 11...first winter BSA trip...I did not even know leather boots would freeze solid).
what is tough about NC/GA in the late winter and early spring is the weather is so unpredictable. You might only have a dusting of snow, or it could be 15 degrees with 18 inches on the ground.
One of the best pieces of advise (already mentioned)....try it!!! Take a 2 hour hike in the snow/cold before you go.
By the way, three AT hikers were rescued from GSMNP today. Temps in single digits, high winds with 2 feet of snow.
They apparently did not have shelter (???). They needed a helicopter rescue. They were on a 10 day hike. Who goes on a 10 day hike in January without shelter??? (especially with a storm forecast?) I think there might be more to this story.
My experience with trail runners is that they are good for about 700 miles give or take. My Darn Tough socks would last longer than a pair of shoes (about 1,000 miles).
This was my experience as well. I would plan on 3 - 4 pairs of trail runners.
My experience with trail runners is that they are good for about 700 miles give or take. My Darn Tough socks would last longer than a pair of shoes (about 1,000 miles).
This. I'd rather go with a good pair of hiking boots and only have to replace them once. Hiking boots are no longer the huge bulky 5 pound behemoths either, there are plenty of great boots by Keen and others that are lighter then your normal tennis shoes, and they'll outlast trail runners every time.
I betcha in the military you never marched 2000 miles over a mountain range without backup logistical and tactical support having everything needed for survival on you and your back by yourself. What's the longest duration being out on a march/mission in consistent foul weather you have done? by yourself?
The military survival skills, as well as the mental and physical toughness you've earned, will definitely help on a multi month 2000 + mile day after day wk after wk month after month unsupported thru-hike(march) but do grasp a lengthy AT thru-hike is a more independent individualistic, perhaps longer term hike hike hike hike hike situation, than most military special forces missions. The situation, and mindset, of a thru-hike, is different in several ways than being in the military on a special forces mission. Do not let the military mindset, IN SOME WAYS, interfere with completing an AT thru-hike. There are similarities, AS WELL AS SOME NOTABLE DIFFERENCES, between the two endeavors and will most likely factor into your anticipated AT thru-hike. TRY to understand how a thru-hike situation will be different in some ways and make the proper adjustments. Perhaps, many of those adjustments will have to entail you doing more things your way. Flip the mental light switch. Respectfully, a thru-hike is NOT a military special forces team effort.
I think it fair to say your military bag was not made of a flimsy nylon(taffeta) shell, high end goose down insulation, and overall light wt. If you thru-hike with a goose down bag, and you might learn to appreciate one for it's high compactability(low volume) and light wt, you may find bringing wet shoes into your sleeping bag will affect the sleeping bag's performance.
For what it might be worth to you, thank you for your service. Have a great hike.
He's been more tired, hungry, cold, and wet all at the same time then you or I or any of us combined ever were on the AT, bro.
Really? Are hikers really unsupported when they run into town every couple of days for warm food and dry bed. And if the weather is crappy, AT hikers will kill time in a shelter....
You know me better than that, or so I thought. Did you really think I wasn't aware of that when I made my comments you are referring to? It seemed you ignored much of what I said because you got hung up on the one word - unsupported. As such, you missed the heart of what I was attempting to convey.
He's been more tired, hungry, cold, and wet all at the same time then you or I or any of us combined ever were on the AT, bro.
Do you also think I am not aware of that? Did I not say that in my post #30?
PLEASE reread or perhaps slowly read for the first time what I said in post #30. Can't either of you see how being in the military in a special forces unit and doing things the "military way" is in some ways the same and indeed beneficial to a thru-hike BUT YET ALSO DIFFERENT than completing a 2200 mile AT thru-hike. I see it. And, I've noticed several in the military or who had been in the military who failed on their attempted thru-hikes who failed to recognize and adjust to the differences and that contributed in large part to their aborted thru-hikes. I'm attempting to help someone reach their goal of completing an AT thru-hike NOT DEMEAN IN ANYWAY what they have done in the military. PLEASE, don't take any of my comments as if I'm demeaning the military or military way of doing things or what it means to be in the military. IMO, there are some adjustments that can, and probably will need to be made, if one is going to complete an AT thru-hike after doing things the "military way." I think Alpha can ignore that if he wants. I'm simply going by what I've noticed on the trail from those coming from military back rounds and wanting to do a thru-hike.