Zelph Starlyte Stove test results

[Odd Man Out]

I have been playing with my new Olicamp XTS pot (with heat exchanger) and my Zelph Starlyte (with lid).

If you are a Starlyte user, maybe you have noticed this, but I haven't seen it reported before, but I have learned that the power of this stove is variable depending on the amount of fuel in it. With 15 mL of Methanol, I could heat 2 cups of 70 deg water almost to a boil (208 deg) in 7 minutes. But when I filled to stove to capacity with 45 mL of fuel, the power was 30% greater and 2 cups of water boiled in 4 min, 50 sec. The stove went on to burn for another 10 minutes. In all cases, when the fuel is running out, the flame goes down to a flicker before going out. Next I may experiment with a removable simmer ring next.

[juma]

That's interesting. I had put my zephyr away in the unused gear locker cause it didn't work that great.

[zelph]

I have been playing with my new Olicamp XTS pot (with heat exchanger) and my Zelph Starlyte (with lid).

If you are a Starlyte user, maybe you have noticed this, but I haven't seen it reported before, but I have learned that the power of this stove is variable depending on the amount of fuel in it. With 15 mL of Methanol, I could heat 2 cups of 70 deg water almost to a boil (208 deg) in 7 minutes. But when I filled to stove to capacity with 45 mL of fuel, the power was 30% greater and 2 cups of water boiled in 4 min, 50 sec. The stove went on to burn for another 10 minutes. In all cases, when the fuel is running out, the flame goes down to a flicker before going out. Next I may experiment with a removable simmer ring next.

Interesting results.:)

What pot support are you using?


juma
That's interesting. I had put my zephyr away in the unused gear locker cause it didn't work that great.



What is a zephyr:-?

If you have a StarLyte stove and are not using it then send it back for a refund. I can find a good home for it.:)

[geomaniac]

[QUOTE=Odd Man Out;1829263]I have been playing with my new Olicamp XTS pot (with heat exchanger) and my Zelph Starlyte (with lid).

How do you like that Olicamp XTS pot? I was just looking at them on Amazon. I am considering buying the pot with their Xcelirator titainum stove, : http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007S3MRU8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

[Odd Man Out]

Interesting results.:)

What pot support are you using?



I use a DIY ring of hardware cloth, 2" tall. That and the stove set on a round piece of carbon felt for insulation. I put a square of aluminum foil under that to protect the surface (probably overkill). That all surrounded by a wind screen which is a 4" tall ring of aluminum flashing with a diameter 1/2" larger than the pot and ~60 air holes (1/4" diameter each) around the perimeter of the bottom for air intake.

I did notice that when the stove was filled to capacity, there were some flames coming out the side where the seam is. Is there a good way to seal that seam a little better or should I not worry about it.

In the test, I used 2 cups of water. With 15 mL of fuel, the water was heated from 70 F up to 208 F (almost a boil). You can see that over the last two minutes, the power dwindled. I've observed that the flame dies down to a flicker as it is running out of fuel. With 45 mL of fuel, the stove seemed to be still going at full power when it boiled. I stopped collecting data at that point, but I added two more cups of water and was able to bring 4 cups to a boil in about 10 minutes (twice the boil time for 2 cups, as expected). The fire kept going for several more minutes. The slope of the line is proportional to power. For the two tests the slopes are 23.0 and 29.6 deg F/min, which converts to about 422 and 542 Watts.

I should repeat the test to confirm these results.

25499

[MuddyWaters]

I have been playing with my new Olicamp XTS pot (with heat exchanger) and my Zelph Starlyte (with lid).

If you are a Starlyte user, maybe you have noticed this, but I haven't seen it reported before, but I have learned that the power of this stove is variable depending on the amount of fuel in it. With 15 mL of Methanol, I could heat 2 cups of 70 deg water almost to a boil (208 deg) in 7 minutes. But when I filled to stove to capacity with 45 mL of fuel, the power was 30% greater and 2 cups of water boiled in 4 min, 50 sec. The stove went on to burn for another 10 minutes. In all cases, when the fuel is running out, the flame goes down to a flicker before going out. Next I may experiment with a removable simmer ring next.

Not unusual. The open cup tealight stoves I use do the same thing. These stoves use heat feedback into the alcohol to vaporize it
I attributed it to less wetted area in the stove, and therefore less heat transfered into the alcohol to vaporize it. Hence, lower heat output.
Thats without studying it in detail.
Thats also how I speed up my tealights. I use an additional bent piece of metal in the cup to transfer more heat into the alcohol to speed the vaporization, and increase heat output. Cuts several minutes off the boil time without it.

[Odd Man Out]

[QUOTE=Odd Man Out;1829263]How do you like that Olicamp XTS pot? I was just looking at them on Amazon. ...

I quite like the pot so far, with the disclaimer that I have only used in the kitchen (we do have a winter storm and wind chill warning today). It is anodized Aluminum with a heat exchanger on the bottom. It has sturdy folding handles with rubber grips (like the wide Evernew pots). This puts them near the top away from the heat and above the wind screen. I prefer this to the coffee mug style handles (like an MSR Titan). If you don't want the handles, they pop on and off easily with no damage or modification, but gripping the handles keeps them in place more securely so there is no chance of them falling off in use. It has a rubber lid that seals tight to keep everything in place when packing. The lid has a vent so you can use it when boiling, but no pouring spout, so you would have to remove it to pour. There is a tab on the side and a knob molded on the middle of the lid to it's pretty easy to handle. I was able to put it on and take it off while boiling. The pot has stamped volume marks every 8 oz. The 32 oz line is about 1 inch from the top. Based on my kitchen measuring cups, the marking seem reasonably accurate. The inside dimension are 4.5" diameter and 4.75" deep. The near 1:1 height/diameter ratio will give it a maximum volume to surface area ratio so it should retain heat well. It comes with a mesh bag. On my cheap kitchen scale (not digital), I get these weights

6.7 oz = pot
1.0 oz = lid
0.5 = bag
10.3 = pot, lid, bag, stove, wind screen, foil, carbon felt, pot stand


Not unusual. The open cup tealight stoves I use do the same thing. These stoves use heat feedback into the alcohol to vaporize it I attributed it to less wetted area in the stove, and therefore less heat transfered into the alcohol to vaporize it. Hence, lower heat output. Thats without studying it in detail. Thats also how I speed up my tealights. I use an additional bent piece of metal in the cup to transfer more heat into the alcohol to speed the vaporization, and increase heat output. Cuts several minutes off the boil time without it.

I remember seeing that. I liked your system and it influence me to go to this kind of burner. This stove has a wicking system that traps the fuel. Nice because it doesn't spill, and with the lid, you can leave excess fuel in the stove for next time. Thus you can always use it with a full fuel load and not worry about using excess fuel or running out in the middle of what you are cooking. I may want to rig up snuffing device. Or maybe I can just blow it out. Need to work on that part yet. As for the heat feedback, with the wire screen top and wicking system, I can't set a piece of metal in the fuel like you do. Maybe I could insert some finishing nails in it for heat feedback, but I don't want to risk damaging the stove.

I have seen that Olicamp sells this same pot without the heat exchanger. If I had one of those I could get a good comparison of the two and clean answer to the question of how efficient that exchange is, but I can't see spending the $ just to answer that question.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Just FWIW, I get about the same temperature results with the Starlyte (older version with corrugated wind screen and built in pot stand but no stove lid). 1/2 oz denatured gets me close to, but not boiling 2 cups using alum foil pot lids. Grease pot gets water a couple of degrees hotter than either IMUSA 10cm or Snow Peak 900, primarily I believe due to greater diameter and hence bottom surface area both absorbing and reflecting heat. As the flame dies out, the water is getting close to a boil, but heat loss is increasing, and it never gets rolling. I suspect another 5 ml of fuel might keep the output up high and long enough to get to full boil. Obviously water temp, wind, air temp, all play into the equation as well.

[Odd Man Out]

Just FWIW, I get about the same temperature results with the Starlyte (older version with corrugated wind screen and built in pot stand but no stove lid). 1/2 oz denatured gets me close to, but not boiling 2 cups using alum foil pot lids. Grease pot gets water a couple of degrees hotter than either IMUSA 10cm or Snow Peak 900, primarily I believe due to greater diameter and hence bottom surface area both absorbing and reflecting heat. As the flame dies out, the water is getting close to a boil, but heat loss is increasing, and it never gets rolling. I suspect another 5 ml of fuel might keep the output up high and long enough to get to full boil. Obviously water temp, wind, air temp, all play into the equation as well.

I think an advantage of the heat exchanger is it compensates for the narrower pot diameter. I know when I was using my Simmer Cat side burning cat food can stove, even with a wider pot (1.3 L REI pot), there was a lot of heat coming up the sides of the pot and the wind screen got quite hot. With this set up I barely detect heat coming up the side of the pot and the wind screen barely gets warm.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I think an advantage of the heat exchanger is it compensates for the narrower pot diameter. I know when I was using my Simmer Cat side burning cat food can stove, even with a wider pot (1.3 L REI pot), there was a lot of heat coming up the sides of the pot and the wind screen got quite hot. With this set up I barely detect heat coming up the side of the pot and the wind screen barely gets warm.I would agree that heat exchangers definitely help. I've noted that my Jetboil (regardless of any other alky vs canister factors) is very efficient in the sense of capturing escaping heat - the cozy is quite close yet never sees enough heat to get negatively effective. And that puppy can throw some serious BTU's.

[Odd Man Out]

I wanted to quantify the drop in power of this stove as the fuel burns out. So I loaded to stove with 40 mL of ethanol (to get maximum power at the start), but heated 1 liter of water (so I could burn most of the fuel before boiling). I measured the temp every 15 seconds and calculated the power of the stove (slope of the temp vs time graph) over 3 minute intervals. The power was the same though 6 minutes, but after that dropped to 77% of max power for the next 3 minutes and then to 58% of max power over the next 2.5 min. The water boiled before flame out so I didn't get a chance to monitor heat output at the very end of the burn.

25508

[Foresight]

Not familiar with the stove, but I do love a good mystery. If you can take the stove apart why not try this; it will obviously take 45ml of fuel so fill the bottom of the stove with a 30ml equivalent non flammable disc then put 15ml of fuel in and see what your results are.....

[zelph]

I use a DIY ring of hardware cloth, 2" tall. That and the stove set on a round piece of carbon felt for insulation. I put a square of aluminum foil under that to protect the surface (probably overkill). That all surrounded by a wind screen which is a 4" tall ring of aluminum flashing with a diameter 1/2" larger than the pot and ~60 air holes (1/4" diameter each) around the perimeter of the bottom for air intake.

I did notice that when the stove was filled to capacity, there were some flames coming out the side where the seam is. Is there a good way to seal that seam a little better or should I not worry about it.

In the test, I used 2 cups of water. With 15 mL of fuel, the water was heated from 70 F up to 208 F (almost a boil). You can see that over the last two minutes, the power dwindled. I've observed that the flame dies down to a flicker as it is running out of fuel. With 45 mL of fuel, the stove seemed to be still going at full power when it boiled. I stopped collecting data at that point, but I added two more cups of water and was able to bring 4 cups to a boil in about 10 minutes (twice the boil time for 2 cups, as expected). The fire kept going for several more minutes. The slope of the line is proportional to power. For the two tests the slopes are 23.0 and 29.6 deg F/min, which converts to about 422 and 542 Watts.

I should repeat the test to confirm these results.

25499

You're getting great results. Thanks for sharing your experience with the burner.

You can use "Super Glue" regular viscosity to seal the seam on the burner. If it doesn't seal properly let me know.


juma


That's interesting. I had put my zephyr away in the unused gear locker cause it didn't work that great.



Juma, Juma, Juma.........what is a zephyr?:confused:

[Odd Man Out]

You're getting great results. Thanks for sharing your experience with the burner.

You can use "Super Glue" regular viscosity to seal the seam on the burner. If it doesn't seal properly let me know.


Thanks. Can superglue take the heat?

[zelph]

Thanks. Can superglue take the heat?

Yes, I use it on all the burners to assemble them. It doesn't come in contact with direct flames so it works fine. Yours must not have gotten enough to get a good seal. If you cant get it to seal then send it back, I'll pay for return shipping and send you a new one.

[Altarboy]

I sure like my Zelph Fancy Feast. I wanted a stove that would boil water with the least amount of alcohol and I finally found it.

[Odd Man Out]

Yes, I use it on all the burners to assemble them. It doesn't come in contact with direct flames so it works fine. Yours must not have gotten enough to get a good seal. If you cant get it to seal then send it back, I'll pay for return shipping and send you a new one.

Thanks! I'll work on it.

[Starchild]

I wanted to quantify the drop in power of this stove as the fuel burns out. So I loaded to stove with 40 mL of ethanol (to get maximum power at the start), but heated 1 liter of water (so I could burn most of the fuel before boiling). I measured the temp every 15 seconds and calculated the power of the stove (slope of the temp vs time graph) over 3 minute intervals. The power was the same though 6 minutes, but after that dropped to 77% of max power for the next 3 minutes and then to 58% of max power over the next 2.5 min. The water boiled before flame out so I didn't get a chance to monitor heat output at the very end of the burn.

25508
The graphs are wonderful, thank you. One thing to take into consideration in interpretation of the graphs is that the hotter the water the more energy it will take to further raise the temperature. So it would take more energy to raise water from 170F-180F then 70F-80F in a 'room temperature' setting. This is due to 2 reasons, first the rate of evaporative cooling of the water will increase as the water temp heats up, second is that the hot water will itself (and through the pot) radiate (and convect) away faster then at lower temps.

At what temps this becomes a significant factor I don't know but I would expect as water temps increase the rate of increase to gradually lessen (and then suddenly flatline at a boil).

So while reduced stove output vs lowering fuel levels also may be a contributing factor, and your first set of graphs shows that, the second one I suspect may be influenced by the above more then diminished fuel.


Thats also how I speed up my tealights. I use an additional bent piece of metal in the cup to transfer more heat into the alcohol to speed the vaporization, and increase heat output. Cuts several minutes off the boil time without it.

Thank you for the suggestion, what type of metal do you use for this?

[Odd Man Out]

One thing to take into consideration in interpretation of the graphs is that the hotter the water the more energy it will take to further raise the temperature. So it would take more energy to raise water from 170F-180F then 70F-80F in a 'room temperature' setting. This is due to 2 reasons, first the rate of evaporative cooling of the water will increase as the water temp heats up, second is that the hot water will itself (and through the pot) radiate (and convect) away faster then at lower temps.

Good point. I've tested a number of stoves and in most cases, the plot of temp vs time pretty much perfectly linear all the way to boiling, so I conclude that the increased rate of heat loss at higher temps due to evaporation and radiation is negligible. For a stove with very low power where at near boiling temps the heat loss is a significant percentage of heat gain, then it may be noticeable and measurable with my set up. I suppose I could quantify this effect by measuring how fast water cools at various temps. That would allow me to justify that assumption.

[zelph]

My curiosity got the best of me so I purchased one of these today:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UZ7VN0/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'll do some testing with the different StarLyte burners and will report my results.:)

[Wise Old Owl]

My curiosity got the best of me so I purchased one of these today:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UZ7VN0/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'll do some testing with the different StarLyte burners and will report my results.:)


Oh Zelph you fell for the Flux Capacitor again.... too Funny!

[zelph]

Oh Zelph you fell for the Flux Capacitor again.... too Funny!

I'm sure I can make a very efficient burner to work well under the pot. The available StarLytes may be sufficient.....dunno til I try em.;)

The StarLye works so well under the Sidewinder Caldera Cones that trail Designs offers them with their kits.

I was inspired by what I read in this thread :sun:


Even though Pmags put up a good article, I must say it did not answer the question. Several years ago, the most common type was alcohol stoves, or it seemed by posts here and elsewhere. But year to year the trend changes. In 2009 when I did my hike from Springer to the Smokies I carried my little trangia, but the most common stove I saw was the caldera. I have not seen these since. In 2011 and on several of my weekend hikes last year I saw many Jetboils. So I am curious which direction we are going this year.

I am not looking for the best, as Pmags states, there is NONE! I am looking for what is common and what seems to be the trend.

E.


http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?104246-Common-stove-on-the-Train-this-year




(http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?104246-Common-stove-on-the-Train-this-year)

[Starchild]

I have tried the Starlyte with the Jetboil, the Starlyte is too high and one must elevate the Jetboil pot to make it work.

It does work good with a tealight stove (a tealight candle holder filled with alcohol fuel) which sits much lower. It boils 1.5 cups in it's burn time (I forget this was a while ago) but does not have the capacity to boil 2 cups (it gets pretty warm.). I used this in the field to make the Jetboil multifuel in some training hikes for my thru, This was my backup plan in case I could not obtain canisters (which was never a issue)

The Jetboil pot will also work with Esbit.

Always thought it would be great to perfect such a stove to work with the Jetboil pot. Good Luck.

[zelph]

I'm going to make a burner that is 3/8" high by 3" diameter. Same type construction as the StarLyte.

I just need to have a Jboil pot to get the dimensions off of and then start testing.

[zelph]

I did 2 tests this morning.

1st was using the StarLyte for simmer. 1/2oz HEET boiled 2 cups with starting water temp at 70degrees. Did not test for time. It took a loooong time.

2nd one 1/2oz HEET, Modified StarLyte, 1/2oz HEET boiled 2 cups with starting water temp at 70 degrees. Time to boil 12 min.

Pot was supported by 3/4" aluminum perforated strapping material, type used by plumbers.

Testing is fun.

[Nooga]

I did 2 tests this morning.

1st was using the StarLyte for simmer. 1/2oz HEET boiled 2 cups with starting water temp at 70degrees. Did not test for time. It took a loooong time.

2nd one 1/2oz HEET, Modified StarLyte, 1/2oz HEET boiled 2 cups with starting water temp at 70 degrees. Time to boil 12 min.

Pot was supported by 3/4" aluminum perforated strapping material, type used by plumbers.

Testing is fun.

Were these test using the Jetboil?

[zelph]

Were these test using the Jetboil?

I used this:

Jetboil .8 L FluxRing Sol Aluminum Companion Cup w/ Indicating Cozy

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UZ7VN0/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)


I did another test this evening using the same specs as in test 2 and the results were the same. I consider the results to be really good considering the size of the pot and extra metal attached to it's base and the attached cozy.

1/2oz HEET to boil 2 cups. HEET as fuel was handy. I normally use denatured alcohol which should give better results.

The StarLyte Burner remains stable, no flare ups, no over heating. I used the Modified burner.

Hey Wise Owl, what do you think of my test results...are they too funny:)

[Odd Man Out]

I did 2 tests this morning.

1st was using the StarLyte for simmer. 1/2oz HEET boiled 2 cups with starting water temp at 70degrees. Did not test for time. It took a loooong time.

2nd one 1/2oz HEET, Modified StarLyte, 1/2oz HEET boiled 2 cups with starting water temp at 70 degrees. Time to boil 12 min.

Pot was supported by 3/4" aluminum perforated strapping material, type used by plumbers.

Testing is fun.

Those boil times seem kind of long. I was getting 2 cups to boil with a regular StarLyte in just under 5 minutes (when filled with fuel for full power). My pot also has a heat exchanger. The bottom of the pot is 2.5" above the ground. I use a wind screen made of Al flashing.

[zelph]

Those boil times seem kind of long. I was getting 2 cups to boil with a regular StarLyte in just under 5 minutes (when filled with fuel for full power). My pot also has a heat exchanger. The bottom of the pot is 2.5" above the ground. I use a wind screen made of Al flashing.

Yes, for sure they are long. I've only been using 1/2 ounce of fuel. It soaks in well to the fuel absorbing material and is slow to be released. Yes, it's been proven that if you put in 1 ounce of fuel that you'll get faster boils and can then snuff out the burner, let cool a little and cap it off to retain remaining fuel.

Because this Jetboil cup has a cozy attached I started off with minimum fuel to prevent flames from going up tghe sides of the pot...if that's what will occur if I use 1 ounce of fuel.

More testing is needed to see how the burner reacts with 1 ounce of fuel. We know 1/2 ounce works well...slow but efficient. we know 1 ounce of fuel will shorten boil times.

The fluxring sure does have an interesting effect on how the flame stays under the pot. I'm sure it's the way air flows under the metal structure attached to the pot and how it then flows through the fins and out. It seems the fins have a slowing down effect on the exiting gasses. dunno for sure at this point. We'll see how it looks when I test it with 1oz of fuel.

My last test I used a stainless steel pot support and it works well, stores well within the flux ring compartment. Looks as if the pot support can remain there while the pot is used with a canister. I'm sure it will withstand the heat of the gas stove.

Some photos I took so you can see what I'm doing and one of the photos shows how the stainless steel pot support spans the bottom of the pot fixture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/JETBOIL/JETboilcompanioncup001_zpsffc46121.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/JETBOIL/JETboilcompanioncup001_zpsffc46121.jpg.html) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/JETBOIL/JETboilcompanioncup002_zps1df5bbf0.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/JETBOIL/JETboilcompanioncup002_zps1df5bbf0.jpg.html) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/JETBOIL/JETboilcompanioncup003_zpseccd4511.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/JETBOIL/JETboilcompanioncup003_zpseccd4511.jpg.html) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/JETBOIL/JETboilcompanioncup004_zpsc5d2e55d.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/JETBOIL/JETboilcompanioncup004_zpsc5d2e55d.jpg.html) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/JETBOIL/JETboilcompanioncup005_zpsf44b4842.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/JETBOIL/JETboilcompanioncup005_zpsf44b4842.jpg.html) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/JETBOIL/JETboilcompanioncup006_zpsc94fe43b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/obijiwa/media/JETBOIL/JETboilcompanioncup006_zpsc94fe43b.jpg.html)
l


I've done about six tests and you can see the bottom of the pot is clean which means the fuel is burning efficiently.

[Odd Man Out]

True that with a full load of fuel it burns faster, but even with just 15 mL I was getting faster boil times with good efficiency. You seem to have your pot much closer to the flame than me. I have observed with the heat exchanger, very little heat seems to come up the side of the pot. My wind screen is very close to the pot and barely gets warm during a test. But your pot is narrower than mine. It would be interesting to try with the pot higher.

[Old Hiker]

[QUOTE=zelph;



What is a zephyr:-?

If you have a StarLyte stove and are not using it then send it back for a refund. I can find a good home for it.:)[/QUOTE]



http://www.amazon.com/ALPS-Mountaineering-Zephyr-1-Person-Tent/dp/B00B9GCRL4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402163352&sr=8-1&keywords=zephyr+1+tent :p

I have a Zephyr and it's not too bad. Won't boil water to save my life, but whatchagonnado?

Alcohol stoves look interesting but finicky. Not sure if I'd want to try one or not.

[bobp]

Alcohol stoves look interesting but finicky. Not sure if I'd want to try one or not.

Finicky?? Underpowered, perhaps, if you want to boil for a large group. I have to respect your experiences, but I've had very different experiences. A few years ago I grabbed 2 Venom stoves during one of Zelph's Father's Day specials (the reason I'm a father promptly claimed one of the pair). The Venom won't out-blaze an old SVEA, but it is so simple that I was able to beat a Jetboil from "I want breakfast" to eating breakfast. To be fair, neither Jetboil Guy nor I knew that we were racing, but I just noticed afterward that we had started at the same time, and I had finished first, largely because the Venom stove requires no assembly or anything more complicated than fill and light.

Alcohol stoves are miracles of simplicity, and are almost perfect for cool-to-hot weather use boiling one or two cups of water.

[zelph]

Finicky?? Underpowered, perhaps, if you want to boil for a large group. I have to respect your experiences, but I've had very different experiences. A few years ago I grabbed 2 Venom stoves during one of Zelph's Father's Day specials (the reason I'm a father promptly claimed one of the pair). The Venom won't out-blaze an old SVEA, but it is so simple that I was able to beat a Jetboil from "I want breakfast" to eating breakfast. To be fair, neither Jetboil Guy nor I knew that we were racing, but I just noticed afterward that we had started at the same time, and I had finished first, largely because the Venom stove requires no assembly or anything more complicated than fill and light.

Alcohol stoves are miracles of simplicity, and are almost perfect for cool-to-hot weather use boiling one or two cups of water.

The Venom Super Stove Father's Day sale has been added-on to the Memorial Day Sale. Saving on paper work;)

FREE SHIPPING

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?104140-Memorial-Day-Venom-Super-Stove-Sale

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?104140-Memorial-Day-Venom-Super-Stove-Sale

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?104140-Memorial-Day-Venom-Super-Stove-Sale