View Full Version : What would have done?
With all the news about the "hikers" having to be rescued last week I am thinking this is a perfect opportunity to teach the Boy Scouts some techniques or skills should they ever find themselves in a dangerous position as these young men in the Smokies did.
Yes, we know proper planning, training and proper gear are first but let's say you find yourself in one of the hikers shoes.
Please let's not bash on them, I would like input to learn from.
My take
If I were to find myself in their position
1. Call for help
2. I assume they had three sleeping bags. I would have made a shelter out of one bag.
3. Had everyone get out of wet clothing. Put on all dry clothing.
4. Zipped the other two sleeping bags together and had everyone get in to share body heat.
5. Waited for help in the shelter until morning.
What would you do?
Thank you for your constructive input.
wookinpanub
01-06-2014, 16:40
Ditto on the walking out. 4-5 inches of snow, 5 miles from trailhead, start walking (probably 3hrs). It was mostly downhill back. Movement is the key. I have never been in a situation where moving would not warm me up. If your feet are giving you trouble, put them in plastic bags and keep going. Always keep a dry sleeping bag and dry clothes for when you stop. If you have neither of those.....don't stop. I mean it....don't stop.
MDSection12
01-06-2014, 17:11
The issue was they didn't seem to even have the gear necessary to take the basics steps to survive... You assume they had sleeping bags, but I don't know that that's founded. They burned their clothing with a blow torch for warmth...
hikerboy57
01-06-2014, 17:20
walk out .
know when to turn around, then turn around and walk out
The issue was they didn't seem to even have the gear necessary to take the basics steps to survive... You assume they had sleeping bags, but I don't know that that's founded. They burned their clothing with a blow torch for warmth...
The major piece of gear they seemed to be missing should have been between their ears
johnnybgood
01-06-2014, 17:59
Keep walking . Frostbitten extremities occur when the body's core temperature drops , often associated with being immobile.
DugK, What a great lesson for the Boy Scouts or any of us. Let them get as much info they can about this situation and have a DO and NOT DO plan. My first thoughts were, how did they get into their situation, what did they do to not make the situation worse. Were they prepaired , I think we all no the answere.
MuddyWaters
01-06-2014, 18:38
I would have walked out.
++ dont stop moving. Its the main thing keeping you alive.
We teach the boyscouts that, unfortunately, only the ones that actually begin backpacking, which a small percentage in much of the country..
Thanks for all the input.
If no one was prevented from traveling and trail was distinguishable(I think they were on the WELL BLAZED/SIGNED AT) retrace my steps walking back out(I think I read somewhere they were only 5 miles in) to the car they left at Fontana Dam(shelter/hot showers/ lodging/hot food etc)or getting back to the first lean-to(shelter) for the night and lit a fire(warmth) drying out. Then, I would have went Fight Club on myself and all the rest in my party once we got back to the car.
This is one of the obstacles I would find so challenging when I watch those dual Survivor Reality TV Shows - knowing that the show wanted me to stay somewhere in a limited general area for 22 days so they could more easily film when I know a hotel/road/resort/boat/other assiatance is often so close. If I'm not hurt or lost or unable to for some reason I'm inclined to move safely in the direction of assistance in a survival situation.
The issue was they didn't seem to even have the gear necessary to take the basics steps to survive... You assume they had sleeping bags, but I don't know that that's founded. They burned their clothing with a blow torch for warmth...
Who carries a blowtorch into the woods?
FarmerChef
01-06-2014, 20:11
I agree with everyone above. Movement is key to staying warm. If it were me, I would have turned on my headlamp and walked out (assuming they even had lights). However, as an endurance athlete and high mpd hiker I can tell you that you do eventually hit the wall as you deplete all of your glycogen (carbohydrate) reserves. Movement is still better than nothing but mental disorientation can occur as well as an overwhelming desire to stop. In their situation, they may have been exhausted from hiking through the snow/too little conditioning.
What else...
Assuming none of us are adequately prepared or at least not enough of us are...
Step 1. Identify conditions are not what I expected. Reassess my plans and gear and make an educated decision on whether to proceed. If not confident, turn back now!
Then...
Check my map to a. Confirm our location and b. Identify the fastest/easiest trail/direction to safety. This should be done with enough time to get back out during daylight.
Call for help in case we can't make it all the way, specifying our direction of travel, current condition, supplies, anticipated time of arrival, etc.
If winds are an issue, put on ponchos or windbreakers, even pack liner bags with holes cut in them, anything to protect my torso. Then I'd add ziploc food bags to my hands and feet, especially my feet since my hands can go in pockets or under my armpits.
Keep walking.
If someone in our party can no longer keep moving then it's time to stop and make camp.
Quickly select a suitable site to make shelter
Rig a shelter from available supplies, get guys zipped into two sleeping bags together if possible. If not spoon sleeping bags together. Do this after changing into dry clothes, if possible.
Scrounge firewood and get a fire going with a reflector to reflect the heat into the shelter. Try to leave the light of the fire also visible to rescuers.
Eat available food to stoke metabolism and help generate body heat.
If no frostbite or hypothermia, drink warm liquids if no danger of spilling or other hazards.
Wait for rescue, staying put.
Just some thoughts.
Maybe you all should rethink.
Firstly closest I personally came to hypothermia was on a Sept hike in Canada. Felt like I was a walking case of pneumonia. I bailed. East side of Jasper park and back to trail head and into town however many miles that was.
However I was also up close and personal with a hiker in the Smokies that came up from Cades Cove in the rain with down jacket under rain jacket. The next morning (when I observed the event) he was walking, talking and completely out of it. Of the 3, 4 groups of hikers that met there one hiker was an EMT and was taking him to hand and back down to trail head at Cades Cove that day or trying to, definitely had his hands full.
Understand me - he was not coherent and he was not cooperative. This is also a symptom of hypothermia.
Easy to say I would do this or I would do that but maybe not so easy when you don't recognize your own condition.
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MuddyWaters
01-06-2014, 20:38
Who carries a blowtorch into the woods?
Someone intent on cooking some meth.
rocketsocks
01-06-2014, 20:45
Who carries a blowtorch into the woods?it's a hillbilly pocket rocket...pretty slick actually...boil time 1 cup water; 1min-45 seconds.
rocketsocks
01-06-2014, 20:48
what would you have done
I guess it goes without sayin...but check the damn weather before you leave. And I agree with all that's been said by others, get something to eat, drink up, and keep moving forward on trail...on trail, no blazing.
I agree with everyone above. Movement is key to staying warm. If it were me, I would have turned on my headlamp and walked out (assuming they even had lights). However, as an endurance athlete and high mpd hiker I can tell you that you do eventually hit the wall as you deplete all of your glycogen (carbohydrate) reserves. Movement is still better than nothing but mental disorientation can occur as well as an overwhelming desire to stop. In their situation, they may have been exhausted from hiking through the snow/too little conditioning.
What else...
Assuming none of us are adequately prepared or at least not enough of us are...
Step 1. Identify conditions are not what I expected. Reassess my plans and gear and make an educated decision on whether to proceed. If not confident, turn back now!
Then...
Check my map to a. Confirm our location and b. Identify the fastest/easiest trail/direction to safety. This should be done with enough time to get back out during daylight.
Call for help in case we can't make it all the way, specifying our direction of travel, current condition, supplies, anticipated time of arrival, etc.
If winds are an issue, put on ponchos or windbreakers, even pack liner bags with holes cut in them, anything to protect my torso. Then I'd add ziploc food bags to my hands and feet, especially my feet since my hands can go in pockets or under my armpits.
Keep walking.
If someone in our party can no longer keep moving then it's time to stop and make camp.
Quickly select a suitable site to make shelter
Rig a shelter from available supplies, get guys zipped into two sleeping bags together if possible. If not spoon sleeping bags together. Do this after changing into dry clothes, if possible.
Scrounge firewood and get a fire going with a reflector to reflect the heat into the shelter. Try to leave the light of the fire also visible to rescuers.
Eat available food to stoke metabolism and help generate body heat.
If no frostbite or hypothermia, drink warm liquids if no danger of spilling or other hazards.
Wait for rescue, staying put.
Just some thoughts.
agree with the bolded statement in general but in the case they just needed to go downhill. Even if glycogen was shot, which I doubt would happen in a six to eight mile hike, gravity would take them down possibly at a slower pace but they would get there.
If a member of the group displays signs of hypothermia warm them up by means available. Usually putting a warm body in a decent bag with a cold body will do the trick, especially with a shelter or tent available. Then walk out if the trail is passable and the distance/grade manageable. Keeping moving is rarely a mistake when within 5 miles of a vehicle. Exceptions include flooding, blizzard conditions, and steady cold rain in the absence of adequate gear. Huddling together in dry sleeping bags in a shelter or tent beats walking in conditions where exposed walking will not warm you up. Fire building skills in bad conditions are a good thing to teach/learn as well. A hiker with a blow torch should be able to start a sustainable fire in most conditions.
Your intentions are good Dug in that you want to prevent this type of scenario and deal with it IF it was to happen but it's so easy to NOT know the exact predicament because we are depending on media sources, that always seem to leave important details out of stories, to clue us in on the exact situation.
I understand it to be impossible to know the exact gear or lack of, I did make a few assumptions and understand most on this sight are very experienced and would not find themselves in that position. I was just looking for some replies, input and ideas if one was to find themselves in that hypothetical position.
Some very helpful replies and I really appreciate that!
I have a habit of putting myself in others shoes in these types of situation. I guess, to see what I would do and then seek others opinions. This helps me learn from others mistakes.
Thanks again
hikerboy57
01-07-2014, 09:26
I understand it to be impossible to know the exact gear or lack of, I did make a few assumptions and understand most on this sight are very experienced and would not find themselves in that position. I was just looking for some replies, input and ideas if one was to find themselves in that hypothetical position.
Some very helpful replies and I really appreciate that!
I have a habit of putting myself in others shoes in these types of situation. I guess, to see what I would do and then seek others opinions. This helps me learn from others mistakes.
Thanks againyour scouts most likely have learned enough already to avoid putting themselves in that kind of predicament.really the best thing to do, should you find yourself getting in a bit over your head, and if possible, retrace your steps and walk back out. ive cut many a trip short due to failing weather conditions i did not anticipate. pay attention to your pace if snow is slowing you down to ensure you can get to shelter before dark.if you're only traveling 1mph, you cant cover 5 miles in 2 hours.
farmer chef gave a pretty good rundown of the what if's
I would have been prepared and kept going most likely. :)
As far as I'm concerned they did the right thing for them - they survived. I was talking to someone about swift water rescues this summer and he was saying that no rescue is "by the book".... Any rescue where the person doesn't die is a good one.
I understand it to be impossible to know the exact gear or lack of, I did make a few assumptions and understand most on this sight are very experienced and would not find themselves in that position. I was just looking for some replies, input and ideas if one was to find themselves in that hypothetical position.
Some very helpful replies and I really appreciate that!
I have a habit of putting myself in others shoes in these types of situation. I guess, to see what I would do and then seek others opinions. This helps me learn from others mistakes.
Thanks again
in some respects I have been in this situation quite a few times. Cold, wet and miles from where I need/want to be. I don't think these folks were in any worse shape than many on here find themselves in. It was their reaction to that situation that was the difference. This situation would have gone completely unnoticed by Whiteblaze had they either pushed on to the shelter or turned back. This is no different than other situations where some say a route is impassible and other find it a minor inconvenience. generally it is experience that makes the difference in how someone views a bit of adversity.
As The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy says, in large, friendly letter, DON'T PANIC.
Lessons for newbies:
1) Every time you go into the backcountry, even for a day hike, carry enough gear that you could survive a night of the forecasted weather conditions, which you will have, of course, checked.
2) Always attempt to extract yourself from the situation. You will probably get out faster than if you wait for help.
3) The exception is if you are actually completely lost. In that case, you should stay put and attempt to contact help with the whistle and fire starters you should have with you. Moving around in that situation just makes you harder for rescuers to find.
Traffic Jam
01-07-2014, 12:04
I freely and sheepishly admit that the first time I hiked in snow I wore cotton leggings and jeans. I made it a mile before I got tired of sinking to my knees in snow and turned around. The key is knowing when you've made a mistake and fix it before you're in trouble. Mistakes aren't always bad, I've learned a lot from them.
walk out .
Yes i agree on walking out.
"DON'T PANIC" probably is they best way to handle these situation, period. The OP was looking for advice on what to pass on to a Scout troop, I think, so it occurs to me that "Don't Panic" is a good life skill to pass on to them. I think that's called self esteem. And I have to say I don't recall that being addressed in the Scout Manual, pity that. Tho' I supposed most lesson like that are more osmotic than formal.
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pipsissewa
01-07-2014, 12:36
The issue was they didn't seem to even have the gear necessary to take the basics steps to survive... You assume they had sleeping bags, but I don't know that that's founded. They burned their clothing with a blow torch for warmth...
Yes, they did have sleeping bags. I saw an interview of one of them, in which he said they tried to make some type of shelter by piling their three sleeping bags over each other.
Being just three to five miles in from the trail head (reports vary) and NOT HAVING AN INJURY, I surely would have TURNED AROUND AND WALKED BACK TO MY CAR AT THE TRAIL HEAD. Miserable? For sure. But just laying down--particularly without proper gear--is not the right decision here. Every step closer to the trail head is a good thing. Moving increases your core temperature. Even if they didn't know enough to use vapor barriers (plastic bags) on their hands and feet--and it seems likely they didn't, they would have been in better shape if they had kept moving.
It seems like the TURNING AROUND
pipsissewa
01-07-2014, 12:37
----Sorry----
...It seems like the TURNING AROUND is always the hardest part!!!! Just TURN AROUND!!! And go back!!!!
DugK, as a scout leader there are many things you can teach your troop that will help them in life--not just on the trail. The whole 'be prepared' thing is a good crossover skill. But beyond the lesson of what to do, or not do, that this case teaches, there are a few skills and habits of trail life that can help get you out of a jam like this.
For every drop or gain in elevation there is a one degree temp difference for about 1000 feet--so if you can go down safely you will usually be warmer.
As you travel look for places that would be good shelter if you should need it--a cave or rock overhang or just a deep depression in the ground could protect you from the wind. A fun game is to tell the kids to stop for a water break and then ask them to describe the trail they just walked. Reward the best description with a snikers bar and the next time you ask you will get some very detailed answers!
If you had to drop your pack and run, what would you have in your pockets that would help you survive until you could get your pack back or if the bear takes it away for good. My knife, phone, maps, money, hat, lighter, bandana and a few other things are almost always in my pockets. Another game is to gather for lunch and have everyone tell what they have in their pockets that would help them survive. Be prepared for some laughs here.
Hope this is what you were looking for, grayfox
Thinking about it occasionally during the day, and talking to one of my co-workers who is a first responder, I'd say a useful thing to do with your kids is to role-play, "What would happen if you couldn't walk another step?" That might be a more useful approach than simply giving them lists of the 10 Essentials and general advice. The Red Cross offers a Wilderness First Aid course that would be very useful for older kids. The gist of that course is to triage your decision-making with an eye to survival first and minimizing the injuries second. For people who want to spend time in the backcountry, that could be as useful as swimming lessons for someone who likes messing about in boats.
I have a habit of putting myself in others shoes in these types of situation. I guess, to see what I would do and then seek others opinions. This helps me learn from others mistakes.
I hear ya. I used to think it was best to learn from my own mistakes. I now think it may be BEST to let others make make more of the mistakes and learn from them.:-?
I don't agree with walk out, at least not at first.
First STOP, under whatever the best shelter you can find, and MAKE TEA, ant then THINK about the situation you are in and what you should do about it. Do you know where you are? Do you know where you need to get to? Do you know the route and the likelihood of getting lost on the way? Do you know how long it will take to get you there? How long until dark? What is the weather doing? Is the temperature dropping? How cold might it get? Is there rain or freezing rain or snow coming? Can you make a decent shelter? Can you make a decent fire? Do you have communications to call for help if needed?
Then decide whether to walk out, make shelter and then walk out, or call or signal for help.
I assume from the above posts, in this case, the best course of action might have been to walk out.
I always stop and make tea first. Then I walk out, or make shelter then walk out.
Stopping and thinking is good. But I stand by my original point: The only two situations in which you need to call for help are if there is someone so injured that they cannot move at all, or if you are so lost that changing location runs the risk of making you harder to find.
I'm not alone here in being disgusted by the mentality that says, "I'm not feeling good. Waaah. Someone bring some machinery and whisk me away so I don't have to walk anymore."
elmotoots
01-08-2014, 13:24
In a group, HONEST COMMUNICATION is the key to identifying a weakness before it turns into danger.
4eyedbuzzard
01-08-2014, 14:14
I always stop and make tea first.Quite, old chap. :D
Someone intent on cooking some meth.
This would explain some things, for sure.
...Mistakes aren't always bad, I've learned a lot from them.
Good point, and one of the reasons we should all be a little more reserved in our criticism (which most have). Just a little more reserved, the criticism is due.
Stopping and thinking is good. But I stand by my original point: The only two situations in which you need to call for help are if there is someone so injured that they cannot move at all, or if you are so lost that changing location runs the risk of making you harder to find.
I'm not alone here in being disgusted by the mentality that says, "I'm not feeling good. Waaah. Someone bring some machinery and whisk me away so I don't have to walk anymore."
And isn't it true that they may have correctly thought that's what would happen to them if they continued or tried to go back? With the snow, they may have thought they could not stay on the trail going forward or backward. I agree, in those conditions, movement was key, and they probably should have attempted doing that going downhill. But obviously there's lots of stuff they had no clue on, and they very well might have thought that staying put on the trail was the best thing to do. Lack of experience got them into that situation, lack of experience made them stay there and call for help. I'm going to give them credit for that, whether they deserve it or not.
I still have an issue knowing that a permit was granted to these "hikers".
This would explain some things, for sure.
Good point, and one of the reasons we should all be a little more reserved in our criticism (which most have). Just a little more reserved, the criticism is due.
And isn't it true that they may have correctly thought that's what would happen to them if they continued or tried to go back? With the snow, they may have thought they could not stay on the trail going forward or backward. I agree, in those conditions, movement was key, and they probably should have attempted doing that going downhill. But obviously there's lots of stuff they had no clue on, and they very well might have thought that staying put on the trail was the best thing to do. Lack of experience got them into that situation, lack of experience made them stay there and call for help. I'm going to give them credit for that, whether they deserve it or not.
I still have an issue knowing that a permit was granted to these "hikers".
lets put their location in perspective. They were on a VERY established trail that is well marked. They also just came up the hill so they had to know that the "way back" was downhill, there is miles of uphill to reach the point that they were at. Further, to get to the trail they had to cross Fontana Dam. There is a big lake that can be seen from much of the trail. That limited just how lost they could become if heading back. Additionally, if there was snow then they made prints, at least initially, that they could follow. If there was really foot deep drift, not embellished foot deep drifts then those places would also have evidence of three people trudging up the trail. Bottom line, this was about as easy of navigation as you could possibly get even with the snow.
pipsissewa
01-08-2014, 16:20
...I still have an issue knowing that a permit was granted to these "hikers".
We don't actually know that. A ranger was quoted by various media outlets stating that "their destination was unclear". This suggests that they did not have a permit.
hikerboy57
01-08-2014, 17:39
permits can be obtained on line.no interview process.no special requirements
https://smokiespermits.nps.gov/index.cfm?BCPermitTypeID=1
This thread is not specifically about the three boys who messed up last week--it's about what to teach Boy Scouts about figuring out what to do when they find themselves in trouble. I feel very strongly that it is a mistake to head out thinking that if things go a bit wrong you can easily be bailed out. The three guys in question, for instance, seemed to think that getting rescued is like flagging a taxi at the airport. It isn't. Because they had the waiting-for-help mentality, they ended up spending a cold night without shelter. If they had had the mindset that, short of truly crippling injury (and I'm not just talking cold feet and a limp), they needed to get themselves out, they would have turned around and headed back the way they came…and probably would have been having a hot meal in Franklin before midnight.
My message--calling for help should be your last resort, not your first. Young outdoors enthusiasts shouldn't think that calling for helicopter evacuation is the same as calling your mom to pick you up because you've missed the school bus.
Grayfox... I appreciate your ideas and plan on using them! Thank you
I thank all who have contributed to this thread.
Then, may I suggest to the OP, DugK, you close the thread.