View Full Version : A Question of Form
Out on the trail, when is it good form to offer unsolicited advice? When is it good form to offer unwanted advice? Is it only when the advice might save someone from serious jeopardy, or is it also okay when it just might be a little bit helpful? I am accustomed to know-it-alls on line...and guilty of being one...however I have often been taken a bit aback by how forward many backpackers seem to be with their knowledge when you meet them on the trail. Maybe it is just me, but my opinion is that it is just not good form to spout advice and opinions to those one encounters briefly and casually trailside. Being entitled to one's opinion does not imply the propriety of always sharing it. :-?
MuddyWaters
01-11-2014, 02:15
Out on the trail, when is it good form to offer unsolicited advice? When is it good form to offer unwanted advice? Is it only when the advice might save someone from serious jeopardy, or is it also okay when it just might be a little bit helpful? I am accustomed to know-it-alls on line...and guilty of being one...however I have often been taken a bit aback by how forward many backpackers seem to be with their knowledge when you meet them on the trail. Maybe it is just me, but my opinion is that it is just not good form to spout advice and opinions to those one encounters briefly and casually trailside. Being entitled to one's opinion does not imply the propriety of always sharing it. :-?
Unsolicited? Almost never. If the person is in danger of harming themself or others, then OK.
Truth is, there is no right way, or wrong way, and any attempt to educate is usually take as an attack.
I came into the Fontana Hilton back in september last yr and there was a young guy there getting ready to hike the Smokies. His pack probably weighed 65-70 lbs. He admitted he splurged and spent $18 on the imitation military pack as well.
A young woman from Australia was helping him reduce his pack weight, and was so much more tactful than I could ever be, so I pretty much just stayed quiet. I did eat an orange from the bag of oranges we convinced him to leave behind though.
The young lady was kind enough to take about 25 lbs of stuff from him and ship it to his home. At least she said that was what she was going to do. I trust she did because none of it was anything anyone else would have wanted.
Feral Bill
01-11-2014, 02:38
I suppose one could ask "can I help you?" in a mild way. If the situation's not truely dangerous, the person will learn on his/her own. Or not.
If I were struggling, I'd like to be asked: "Are you doing OK?", "Do you need some help?" Maybe followed by "I would be concerned about...(insert obvious, life-threatning lapse here)" Same advice given without the assumtion that I don't know what I'm doing would be more palatable to me; even when I don't know what I'm doing.
$ 0.02
4eyedbuzzard
01-11-2014, 03:26
Out on the trail, when is it good form to offer unsolicited advice? When is it good form to offer unwanted advice? Is it only when the advice might save someone from serious jeopardy, or is it also okay when it just might be a little bit helpful?...When they start burning their socks with blowtorches, it's okay to speak up. :rolleyes:
illabelle
01-11-2014, 06:01
When they start burning their socks with blowtorches, it's okay to speak up. :rolleyes:
Definitely!!
illabelle
01-11-2014, 06:41
Recognizing that fellow hikers are the support system for one another, it is important that we look out for newbies or people who might be struggling on the trail. How we go about "helping" matters. Maybe expressing our own teachability is a way to begin. Perhaps a conversation that begins with, "Hey, I see you're doing that differently than I've seen before. I'm always open to learning something new..." Then we can listen and gauge whether they are also open to learning.
Speaking for myself, if I'm struggling in some way, I might be reluctant to ask for help, or admit that I'm carrying too much, or that I don't know how to set up my tent or whatever. You can't tell by looking at me how much experience I have, and I can't tell by looking how much experience you have either. There's a little risk involved in asking or accepting help. I don't want to become a burden to a stranger, nor do I want to submit to the "superior wisdom" of someone who might be faster and stronger, but odd, or ill-informed, or whose lessons simply don't apply to the way I hike.
We encountered a solo hiker near Pearisburg in November. We were near the end of our hike, heading south. It had been a chilly damp weekend. This guy had hiked with a friend from PA to Daleville, then caught a ride to Pearisburg with the intention of hiking to Damascus and getting a job (Damascus is dead in the winter!). Problem is, he was walking NOBO. Despite the miles he'd already covered, we questioned his readiness for the trail, observing that he wore a heavy plaid flannel jacket. He was broke, had lost his friend, was ill-equipped for late fall weather in the elevations of SW Virginia, and was "lost." After speaking for a few minutes, we encouraged him to continue north to a nearby shelter where he could reconsider his plans (and hopefully head back to PA). A little further on, we found his sleeping bag lying on the trail. Fortunately he was still within shouting distance. It had working loose from the webbing where he had tucked it on the outside of his pack. We helped him secure it. I don't know how he would keep it dry... We saw no one else on the trail that weekend. I think our intervention was appropriate, welcomed, and necessary. I'm glad we were there for him.
I agree with others....tactful intervention is appropriate and necessary anytime safety is a concern. if you spend enough time on the AT, you will encounter people who are jeopardizing themselves due to inexperience and improper planning. I like to socialize with other hikers that I meet on the AT. with that being said, I am quick to "read" them. if they want solitude, that's ok. I enjoy sharing tips with others in a respectful manner. There is always something to be learned.However, a pet peeve is the gear head who is quick to point out why his titanium, Cuban fiber ultralight multi-function Trekmaster 200 is so much superior to the "crap" that I have in my pack. In summary, sharing tips is enjoyable to me. Boasting about gear is not.
Sugarfoot
01-11-2014, 09:42
Just north of Monson, Maine back in 2001, I came up behind a hiker who looked like he was struggling with his hip belt. I asked, "Can I give you a hand?" And immediately noticed that he had no hands. Fortunately, he had not lost his sense of humor in the same industrial accident that cost him his hands. He had a dog that slowed him down considerably so we didn't hike together for long. I think of him whenever I'm tempted to offer advice.
whisper walking
01-11-2014, 09:44
My policy is to listen, respectfully, to any unsolicited advice that I recieve (I recieve quite a bit). Then, decide whether I'm going to take said advice. You learn so much from people, and I try to stay open to new ideas. I agree with 4shot about gearheads, though. I've met many who put too much faith in their $$gear and not enough in themselves.
Out on the trail, when is it good form to offer unsolicited advice? When is it good form to offer unwanted advice? Is it only when the advice might save someone from serious jeopardy, or is it also okay when it just might be a little bit helpful? I am accustomed to know-it-alls on line...and guilty of being one...however I have often been taken a bit aback by how forward many backpackers seem to be with their knowledge when you meet them on the trail. Maybe it is just me, but my opinion is that it is just not good form to spout advice and opinions to those one encounters briefly and casually trailside. Being entitled to one's opinion does not imply the propriety of always sharing it. :-?
Love this question....
I believe unsolicited advise should be given only if the is imminent danger. Let me define what IS NOT imminent danger. I do not believe the three hikers in the Smokies were in imminent danger, discomfort can be a great learning tool. I often do get asked a lot of questions usually when people see me hiking with my tiny pack. I find that people are more willing to learn when they pull the information vs. push it on them. I guess in the end I'm a big believer in people hiking their own hike and dealing with the consequences that go with it.
rick2911
01-11-2014, 10:36
Well, I'll take advise from you guys anytime. That's why I read this forum. I am new to backpacking and the AT, having recently discovered it after moving to TN. I've done a few sections and lots of day hikes on local trails, and hope to do more of the AT as I near retirement, and as my adopted sons get older. I am sure you will recognize me...I will be the one that looks like he doesn't know what he's doing...please be kind and feel free to offer advise. Hopefully some day I will be able to return the favor to a new hiker!
Unsolicited advice really shouldn't be given. Backpacking should be a self sufficient activity and it seems presumptuous to tell others what to do if they haven't asked questions or asked for help. I'd say an exception is when children might be at imminent risk due to the poor decisions of their parents.
Furlough
01-11-2014, 11:17
Out on the trail, when is it good form to offer unsolicited advice? When is it good form to offer unwanted advice? Is it only when the advice might save someone from serious jeopardy, or is it also okay when it just might be a little bit helpful? I am accustomed to know-it-alls on line...and guilty of being one...however I have often been taken a bit aback by how forward many backpackers seem to be with their knowledge when you meet them on the trail. Maybe it is just me, but my opinion is that it is just not good form to spout advice and opinions to those one encounters briefly and casually trailside. Being entitled to one's opinion does not imply the propriety of always sharing it. :-?
If someone is in serious jeopardy or danger it is not a question of unsolicited advice its taking action because it is the right thing to do. Otherwise if asked for advice or input and you truly have something to give then give it. You can silently give advice by your actions and how you accomplish certain tasks. When in doubt think back to your school days....no one liked a spring butt. Of course if you were/are the spring butt this observation is lost on you.
Furlough
Tact is certainly key, and there are ways to convey support without intruding. Mostly I mind my own business unless the other hiker is clearly in trouble or in some way asking for help or tips.
Pedaling Fool
01-11-2014, 11:29
Unsolicited advice, no that's what the internet is for. I've seen people give this type of advice in many cases, not just on the trail, but in the gym, on the bike and countless other endeavors. It's just ugly. I never do, but there are some cases where you must intervene, but I see that not as a case of unsolicited advice, rather as a safety issue; two completely different things. It has to be pretty extreme for me to speak up.
Good question.
I think that, if one is tempted to give advice, it's wise to start with a question to get a feeling for the knowledge of the other person.
Some people don't need the advice you're tempted to give. Everyone who has done much hiking all has stories of being condescended to by people whose knowledge was much shallower than their own. One situation that always amuses me is when I'm nearing the top of my favorite quick exercise hike. (Crowders Mountain when I lived in Charlotte; Avalanche Lake in GNP.) I'll be trucking steadily uphill and the people coming down will smile at me encouragingly and say, "You're almost there, and it's worth it." I could snarl and let them know I've hiked this trail umpteen times before. Or I could smile back and say, "Great!"
Some people will welcome advice when offered. If people are standing there looking at signs and a map, or struggling with gear, "Can I help you?" is not too intrusive. If they want to follow up, it's then a good idea to ask some feeler questions to see at what level you should pitch your answer. "Is this your first visit to the area?" "Have you done much backpacking before?"
People who are engaged in something that is silly, dangerous, or ignorant are a more difficult case. If I'd been coming downhill and encountered the GSMNP Three, I might have tried to engage them in conversation and suggest they turn around and head back to their car. I tend to speak up if I see people doing things like chopping into trees around shelters, putting non-burnable trash in fire pits, offering food to animals in National Parks, etc. They don't want to hear it, but they need to.
CarlZ993
01-11-2014, 11:56
I've got a lot of backpacking experience. I don't mind unsolicited advice. I'm always open for someone showing me a better mousetrap. If I see someone doing something differently or using something I haven't seen before, I'm not shy to ask them about it. I've had a few 'aha' moments on the trail.
I've also given a few unsolicited comments. Particularly if someone is having a problem w/ something... like bear bagging some food. I don't do it too often. But I've never have a bad response when I did.
Great thread. When I see someone obviously struggling or having a problem I'll speak up, usually with something like "Hey man it's a lot easier if...". Or if someone's trying something completely stupid or endangering themselves/us. Basically what everyone else said.
Studlintsean
01-11-2014, 12:16
When did we become a bunch of sissys? When did it become wrong to offer someone advice? I agree to a certain extent but if someone is offering you assistance/ guidance/ advice and you don't want it ...thank them and say you are fine. That's my opinion
HikerMom58
01-11-2014, 12:21
Great thread aficion!! I enjoyed reading all the comments so far. I agree with them!
I really like furlough's comment.
When my daughter and I were hiking in 2010- (we were out for 112 miles) The very first day out, we met a guy hiking that had never backpacked before in his life. (his first day out) His pack weighed 70+ lbs. He didn't have much $$ to spend on his gear etc.. even if he had put more thought into what to bring along. I won't take the time to explain all that but we ended up just doing exactly what furlough described in his post.
It worked out well for us... we didn't act like know-it-all butt heads, so he liked us. :) (that was "the plan") He asked us all kinds of questions and just observed us. It worked out really well!! :sun We stayed in touch & a few years later he decided to attempt a thru-hike. He proudly told us about his gear changes etc...
He made it to Pearisburg VA. He had a great time hiking & he "owned" his thru-hike attempt. It's was awesome!!
When we were out last year in PA hiking someone at the shelter was "poo pooing" LNT. He felt very strongly about it & he didn't appear to be "teachable" at all. There's no way I was going to touch that one! We weren't "hiking" with him so there wasn't a chance or opportunity to start any sort of relationship, with him, where I would feel comfortable "sharing".
If I were a ridgerunner or a person of authority, on the trail, that would have been different.
Slo-go'en
01-11-2014, 12:21
I find that suggesting that someone not let thier wet dog into a shelter, that they shouldn't set up thier tent in the shelter, that they shouldn't wash thier dishes in the stream/spring, etc, inevitably falls on deaf ears or results in a hostile response, no matter how tactfully you try to suggest these things to them. Kinda like what happens here on WB a lot of times.
OTOH, newbie thru hikers just starting out generally are open to suggestions on how to improve thier gear or camping technique. If you see someone obviously struggling with something, going over and asking if they need a hand or saying "here, let me show you a trick to make that easier" is usually welcome.
really people - say what you think or not, no need to over analyze everything
If you had lived your life in my world, you would not be as worried about offending tender feelings
really people - say what you think or not, no need to over analyze everything
If you had lived your life in my world, you would not be as worried about offending tender feelings
perchance, you wouldn't happen to own a titanium, Cuban fiber Trekmaster 200 would you? I think at may have met you on the trail last year.;)
MuddyWaters
01-11-2014, 12:57
Honestly, if the person is not being unsafe, there is something wrong with the person that thinks they need to offer their unsolicited advice.
There are no right ways to do things, and no wrong ways to do things.
There are easier and harder. But most dont care. If it works for them, it works for them.
If we all did everything the same way, it would be a dull boring , stagnant world.
Even as far as cotton clothing....we won two major world wars wearing nothing but cotton.
The things you think are necessary and needed, usually arent.
Only if you see someone TRULY struggling on the trail then speak up, or if some one asks your advice, if not keep you mouth shut and HYOH.
"Great thread aficion!! I enjoyed reading all the comments so far. I agree with them!
I really like furlough's comment."
Thanks Hikermom! Me too. http://www.mckinneyhinge.com/Other/Mckinneyhinge/McK%20images%20for%20web/9001-168x151.jpg
Full Mortise Double Acting Spring Butt Hinge
4eyedbuzzard
01-11-2014, 14:50
Even as far as cotton clothing....we won two major world wars wearing nothing but cotton. Actually, I believe that most uniforms from both wars (and in both theaters in WWII) were predominantly wool trousers and shirts. Some items including field jackets may have made from cotton, but the material of choice was wool for the same reasons we like it today. People have known for centuries that cotton doesn't wear as well and isn't good when wet. Wear some cotton in a cold rain once and you'll likely never make that mistake again (by choice - not implying that everybody who wears cotton is going to die).
Offfering advice to hikers: It's a bit like offering advice to someone struggling learning to play golf. You shouldn't just butt in and assume they want your advice/help. If you see someone struggling for a while and getting frustrated, you could approach them politely and offer, saying something like, "Hi, I see you're struggling with __________. Would you be offended if I [offered a tip] or [offered to help]?" Maybe offer up that you struggled with a similar problem, etc. Polite tends to go a long way.
One exception of note: it is a parent's duty to give unsolicited advice to children, much as it is a pet owner's duty to control said pet.
Hill Ape
01-11-2014, 15:29
my 19 yr old gave me a whole bunch of unsolicited advice last week in very bad form, i mean proceeded to tell me about life. later that day when he was leaving, he did mention the only thing of importance. when his next college is due, so i can sign that check
Hill Ape
01-11-2014, 15:30
payment, see there, should have listened to the boy
4eyedbuzzard
01-11-2014, 15:35
my 19 yr old gave me a whole bunch of unsolicited advice last week in very bad form, i mean proceeded to tell me about life. later that day when he was leaving, he did mention the only thing of importance. when his next college is due, so i can sign that checkShocking, I tell you ;) But then again, you're just not young enough anymore to know everything.
Avoiding both sides of these situations is just one more reason I prefer to hike in places where there aren't any other people!
perchance, you wouldn't happen to own a titanium, Cuban fiber Trekmaster 200 would you? I think at may have met you on the trail last year.;)
no, not me
Shocking, I tell you ;) But then again, you're just not young enough anymore to know everything.
" Oh but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." Dylan (as in Bob);)
Actually, I believe that most uniforms from both wars (and in both theaters in WWII) were predominantly wool trousers and shirts. Some items including field jackets may have made from cotton, but the material of choice was wool for the same reasons we like it today. People have known for centuries that cotton doesn't wear as well and isn't good when wet. Wear some cotton in a cold rain once and you'll likely never make that mistake again (by choice - not implying that everybody who wears cotton is going to die).
Offfering advice to hikers: It's a bit like offering advice to someone struggling learning to play golf. You shouldn't just butt in and assume they want your advice/help. If you see someone struggling for a while and getting frustrated, you could approach them politely and offer, saying something like, "Hi, I see you're struggling with __________. Would you be offended if I [offered a tip] or [offered to help]?" Maybe offer up that you struggled with a similar problem, etc. Polite tends to go a long way.
one of the greatest examples of cotton kills is chinese regulars in all cotton gear in the korean war dying by the thousands from exposure
Trailweaver
01-12-2014, 04:10
I've hesitated to give advice, but have sure appreciated it when I was out there in the beginning and needed help! If offered in the appropriate tone of voice, an offer of help is often a gift.
kayak karl
01-12-2014, 09:22
i think there is a big difference between help and advice. if you come up on an obviously sick person, HELP is get them to the hospital. ADVISE is show them on the map where the hospital is.
if there is a safety issue, help the person through it. i will stick with them till i fell they are out of danger. i really don't worry about what they think about me.
if you see a person struggling with a heavy pack do really think it is helpful to explain in detail why it is heavy and then show him how light yours is?
i had a hiker WAKE me (was still light) and offer advice on how to better hang my hammock and tarp, which i was sleeping in.
i always get unsolicited advice on clothing , but that i may deserve. :)
Offering assistance... yes.
Unsolicited advice... never.
There's a huge difference between the two, IMHO.
HikerMom58
01-12-2014, 10:54
Wow... impressed! WTG with the comments on this subject.. good solid reasoning happening here! :sun I gotta agree with Deadeye... Unsolicited advice = never but man am I guilty of doing this a lot with my closer relationships. If I ever gave unsolicited advice to a stranger, I would try to be very tactful, like a lot of people have already mentioned on this thread.
When did we become a bunch of sissys? When did it become wrong to offer someone advice? I agree to a certain extent but if someone is offering you assistance/ guidance/ advice and you don't want it ...thank them and say you are fine. That's my opinion
I think we're discussing the intersection of HYOH and HMHD. ;-)
Good form? what's this?....a tennis lesson? Just go hike. You can over analyze stuff like this beating it like a dead horse or just nicely speak up or walk away if you don't want to hear others unsolicited opinions. If this is a problem for you problem solved. Don't get so easily offended about things. This is a personal issue that's probably best handled by each individual based on their own trail encounters. Of course, there are other times when ear plugs are useful.
I think we're discussing the intersection of HYOH and HMHD. ;-)
My unsolicited advice to those who commonly offer theirs......MYOB. Poor form perhaps, but there it is.
What's that - Make Your Own Beer? :) Seriously what does MYOB mean? I really don't know. Oh wait, I got it- Mind Your Own Biz. I really just had to figure that out. Got it. But my opinion is.......This is the what you need to do.......:D I really need to ask hikers their trailnames first. If I come across anyone calling themselves Aficion I'll know to not tell them a grizzly is behind them or there is no water for the next 20 miles.:)
I've been hiking with a lot of newbie groups. There is aways the fine line between being helpful and being a know-it-all. Our group leader typically holds a meeting a month before the trip and does a pack review with a few different "experienced" hikers offering up their stuff for inspection (showing there's no one way to do it). In camp he encourages people to look at each other's gear and see how different stuff works. He will even do a "pack review" right in camp, but it's always an offer, and sometimes people take him up on it. If someone is doing something dangerous he will straighten them out, but if its simply bad practice it usually works itself out; Like the girls who hung their bear bag by pulling it up into the crotch of a tree... and had their bag ripped open by a raccoon the next morning. He offered to show them a better way.
But we took a forester with us one trip, and by the end of the first day I was ready to shove him into the creek. His constant string of "I would do it this way", while probably helpful, got annoying and sounded snotty. I would never just come out and say "hey you need to do it THIS way" unless they were perhaps going to burn their stove at night in their enclosed tent to keep warm.
Son Driven
01-12-2014, 21:02
It is wise to listen to the wise, and foolish to listen to the fools, and for me it was easy to discern the difference.
It is wise to listen to the wise, and foolish to listen to the fools, and for me it was easy to discern the difference.
"A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell." T. Fuller:rolleyes: But who asked me?:p
None yet
01-12-2014, 21:32
I'm open to advice, suggestions or assistance. I can decide whether to accept it or not.
English Stu
01-14-2014, 10:01
No to unsolicited advice. Folks can observe different gear and approaches and if they ask you can then answer. Comments on gear inevitably come across as if they have made a bad decision and wasted their money.They are not going to be to happy with that even if you are correct. Unsolicited comments on how better to do things comes across as boasting.
Examples of bizarre bits of unsolicited advice I've gotten over the years:
i was coming down from the top of Mt. Whitney after completing the JMT and a fellow hiking towards me advised me to "Slow down--you're going too fast--you might hurt yourself."
This past summer in RMNP, once again as I was coming down from the top of a trail a fellow hiking up chose to tell me that Chacos are not appropriate footwear for hiking, and that I would hurt my feet. He was totally astonished when I told him I've hiked many hundreds of miles is Chacos. I can only assume he doesn't hike much or he would have seen plenty of other people wearing them.
And many, many more. Generally it's best to keep this sort of thought to oneself.
I do allow myself to admonish people who are flagrantly breaking Park rules, such as approaching too close to a large animal to get a better picture, or feeding animals.