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Meriadoc
01-11-2014, 17:54
Hello folks. I have worn minimalist footwear since before my thru hike. I now refuse to wear anything else. Here is my question:

Sometimes when bushwhacking or hiking an overgrown trail it's nice to have protection from random sharp rocks, thorns and such. I am thinking of a minimalist shoe that's rugged enough for hiking with a upper that rises above the ankle but does not restrict ankle motion. Have you seen or owned any such footwear? Have you seen any plans for crafting some?

I anticipate being required to wear "boots" in the next few months but I don't want to wear restrictive inflexible boots. Something that fits my above description should be enough to satisfy my boot requirement and be my go-to bushwhacking shoe too.

Feral Bill
01-11-2014, 18:53
Sturdy gaitors?

Malto
01-11-2014, 19:09
Sturdy gaitors?

Thats where I was going to as well.

Meriadoc
01-11-2014, 19:21
Sturdy gaitors?

Absolutely. But I'm looking for something with the gaiter integrated into the footwear not only because I dislike gaiters but also because it looks more like a boot. (When I'm told to bring boots, then I will have minimalist boots.)

I'm really leaning towards sewing my own. It would be helpful to see how other people have managed it.

Slo-go'en
01-11-2014, 20:04
I'm really leaning towards sewing my own. It would be helpful to see how other people have managed it.

You may well be the first. Patent the idea :)

Malto
01-11-2014, 20:15
Absolutely. But I'm looking for something with the gaiter integrated into the footwear not only because I dislike gaiters but also because it looks more like a boot. (When I'm told to bring boots, then I will have minimalist boots.)

I'm really leaning towards sewing my own. It would be helpful to see how other people have managed it.

Golite used to have a shoe called a storm dragon that sounded a lot like what you are looking for.

Son Driven
01-11-2014, 23:03
My toes spread out and blistered, ended up using Altra Lone Peak 1.5 trail runners, that have a wide toe box and a zero drop heel. They are only good for about 500 miles on the AT. The AT along with my Altra shoes have forever re- altered my feet & posture. Shoes with heels now give me back pain, and my toes complain when I stuff them into a normal toe box. I am hoping the foot wear industry responds to this market, and provides more options for those who need a bigger toe box, and zero drop heel. I would love to see a tougher shoe that gets more the 500 miles, and a cold weather resistant boot, for winter use in Minnesota.

Chair-man
01-11-2014, 23:10
I am thinking of a minimalist shoe that's rugged enough for hiking with a upper that rises above the ankle but does not restrict ankle motion. Have you seen or owned any such footwear?

Merrell Proterras > http://www.merrell.com/US/en-us/Product.mvc.aspx/30884M/0/Mens/Proterra-Mid-Sport
I own a pair and highly recommend them.

Meriadoc
01-11-2014, 23:32
My toes spread out and blistered, ended up using Altra Lone Peak 1.5 trail runners, that have a wide toe box and a zero drop heel. They are only good for about 500 miles on the AT. The AT along with my Altra shoes have forever re- altered my feet & posture. Shoes with heels now give me back pain, and my toes complain when I stuff them into a normal toe box. I am hoping the foot wear industry responds to this market, and provides more options for those who need a bigger toe box, and zero drop heel. I would love to see a tougher shoe that gets more the 500 miles, and a cold weather resistant boot, for winter use in Minnesota.

My shoes that replaced the Altras and lasted 900+ miles:
http://www.teva.com/mens-terra-fi-lite-hiking-sandals/737872948634,default,pd.html
Not quite a zero drop and they had a rugged sole but I still felt things fairly well. I'm sentimentally attached to this model, but I have since replaced them with:
https://www.lunasandals.com/ (https://www.lunasandals.com/products/37-mono)


Cold weather (really cold weather - it can't be wet):
http://shop.mukluks.com/Mukluks/departments/24/
I'm not certain these are minimalist - they do seem to have a pretty rugged sole. But they also appear to have zero drop.
The steep price inspired me to sew my own. This project is still in progress but it's going well. I will probably also sew moccasins for spring and summer once I get the method mastered.



Merrell Proterras > http://www.merrell.com/US/en-us/Product.mvc.aspx/30884M/0/Mens/Proterra-Mid-Sport
I own a pair and highly recommend them.

Thanks! Bookmarked as an option.

leaftye
01-12-2014, 00:27
http://birthdayshoes.com/minimalist-barefoot-military-combat-boot-mini-mil-tr101

http://birthdayshoes.com/media/blogs/bdayshoes/2012_photos/mini-mil/MiniMil_Boots/.evocache/Mini-Mil-tr101-minimalist-barefoot-shoe-boot-05.jpg/fit-640x540.jpg?mtime=1352142629

HarderthanNails
01-12-2014, 01:12
http://m.newbalance.com/New-Balance-110-Boot/MT110-B,default,pd.html?dwvar_MT110-B_color=Black_with_Red&start=49&cgid=101000

Found this newbalance "boot" haven't tried it out yet but hear good things about it

Son Driven
01-12-2014, 01:19
This is a good thread, the Belleville military boot, would be a good choice for the early AT starters, and the mukluks would be nice to have when the temps get south of zero. The Teva's would be a good after the trail warmed up. However, I would want to explore the amount of drop on the Teva's. By the time you add gaiters to the Merrill's, the weight would be very close to the Belleville boots.

RedBeerd
01-12-2014, 09:25
This may not help but seems relevant. I did some serious bushwhacking in a 3 month period (in the sierras busting through manzanita) in a pair of leather NB minimus. Prior to this they were worn hiking regularly for 2 months. They held up the whole time and I still wear them.
There are trail running gators but the pair I had once didnt really offer much protection. If it can cut your leg it can cut through some fabric. Heavier duty gaitors didn't seem to fit right with trail runner type shoes.

1azarus
01-12-2014, 09:28
good stuff here, indeed. thanks to all posters.

imscotty
01-12-2014, 10:55
Those New Balance Boots are on sale now through 'The Clymb' for $65 (I think a membership may be required). I have not tried these shoes myself...

http://www.theclymb.com/men/8086/men-s-new-balance/show-product/99048?f=mi

q-tip
01-12-2014, 12:03
After trying seven pairs of boots, I use trail runners with heavy duty ankle braces. If you wanat the models send me a PM.

Meriadoc
01-12-2014, 14:44
http://birthdayshoes.com/minimalist-barefoot-military-combat-boot-mini-mil-tr101
Nice! Those Belleville boots are close to what I am looking for. I'm a bit concerned about the reviewers talking saying that it has ankle support. Might not be flexible enough around the ankle but I might be able to just leave the top loose.



This may not help but seems relevant. I did some serious bushwhacking in a 3 month period (in the sierras busting through manzanita) in a pair of leather NB minimus. Prior to this they were worn hiking regularly for 2 months. They held up the whole time and I still wear them.
There are trail running gators but the pair I had once didnt really offer much protection. If it can cut your leg it can cut through some fabric. Heavier duty gaitors didn't seem to fit right with trail runner type shoes.
Yes. This is relevant. Thank you.

Son Driven
01-12-2014, 18:25
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox/1438766f448427fa

These max cushion trail runners intrigue me. My feet got so bruised on the AT that they still hurt.

Snowleopard
01-12-2014, 21:10
My toes spread out and blistered, ended up using Altra Lone Peak 1.5 trail runners, that have a wide toe box and a zero drop heel. They are only good for about 500 miles on the AT. The AT along with my Altra shoes have forever re- altered my feet & posture. Shoes with heels now give me back pain, and my toes complain when I stuff them into a normal toe box. I am hoping the foot wear industry responds to this market, and provides more options for those who need a bigger toe box, and zero drop heel. I would love to see a tougher shoe that gets more the 500 miles, and a cold weather resistant boot, for winter use in Minnesota.
Two things for colder weather:
Use Rocky goretex socks inside your shoes. http://www.campmor.com/rocky-gore-tex-socks-1.shtml They are hard to get on, so you might want a larger size. They help a lot with my Vivobarefeet shoes that are not warm at all, but I don't use them at 0F.
NEOS overshoes: http://www.overshoesonline.com/?gclid=CKCm9I36-bsCFUtp7AodPgwAfQ I have the Adventurer model. I can wear them over my running shoes and they add a lot of warmth. More often when it's really cold I use them like mukluks, just add a Sorel felt liner inside them -- this is pretty warm. Their main disadvantage is that they are not breathable, so the liners get damp. Using a vapor barrier sock or bread bag over thin polypro liner socks would improve this.

I'm tempted by the Steger mukluks, but they are not supposed to be good for wet conditions. Even in the far north people carry rubber boots with felt liners in wet conditions and only use mukluks in cold dry conditions.

Meriadoc, I'm interested in how your DIY mukluks turn out.

leaftye
01-12-2014, 21:20
Nice! Those Belleville boots are close to what I am looking for. I'm a bit concerned about the reviewers talking saying that it has ankle support. Might not be flexible enough around the ankle but I might be able to just leave the top loose.

Please post about them if you buy them. I'm interested in these too.

Meriadoc
02-27-2014, 21:52
Thread resurrection. I picked up a pair of insulated Greenbay Kamik's on the cheap and the heel is lower than typical but it still noticeable. It affects my gait. I'm using them for now but I hope to have a need for backpacking boots soon.

Today I ordered a pair of the Belleville Mini-Mils. I think I will try them out with the NEOS overshoes you mentioned Snowleopard. Have you tried them with crampons at all?

I am also talking with Warmlite about some vapor barrier socks. They are much cheaper than the Gore-Tex socks and are true vapor barriers. Will see! I should get some really tall ones because the overshoes (Navigators) are 15" tall. Slightly ludicrous.

The diy mukluks are a little under half complete but are on hold for the moment.

I will report back!

Just Bill
02-28-2014, 02:43
Merry-
Do you need "boots" you mentioned maintaining the appearance of boots- assuming it's for a job then?
I have that problem in construction- you have to wear boots. If so those Military boots look great- as you said just wear them loose up top.
I wear Merrel's for work- mainly because when you need the "work" appearance it's hard to explain that your neon lime shoes are really boots. The merrell hikers blend in enough that nobody looks twice. Asolo has some too.
The Salomon Synapse Mid is a possibility, but you loose the look of a work boot and they may be discontinued- http://www.backcountry.com/salomon-synapse-mid-hiking-boot-mens

I still like the Altra's- but they'd probably get shredded. That said- if you find a minimalist shoe you like (merrell makes some leather finish ones too if NB don't fit right)- consider homemade gators from 1.9 oz uncoated sil nylon. You may go through a few pairs but I make my packs, skirts, and other items from it and it is more durable than you might think and not as stiff as the heavier cordura. You could also put some 1" webbing vertically- maybe a strip on the shin and one on each ankle to take the main abuse if you're in really rough stuff. Make sure you get uncoated- you will sweat like a hog otherwise. It's usually $7 a yard and you can find it at Jo-Ann or Quest outfitters online.

In scouts I made mukluks with regular canvas, Sorell boot liners, and paracord. Once I had the basic shape and fabric cut right to wrap the liner I simply wrapped paracord around the whole thing like a sandal instead of a lace system since I couldn't sew. You could probably do better- but the important part- After I had them right I had my brother use a thick sharpie to trace my foot onto the sides of the canvas and then took them off and coated my foot print with about an 1/8" of shoe goo to make a sole. The rest of the canvas was sealed with sno-seal. Worked pretty good for basic tramps and winter camps. The paracord wrap gave them some decent traction and the shoe goo stayed fairly flexible and lasted a few seasons of occasional use.

putts
02-28-2014, 17:10
I also recommend the Proterras - I got a free pair from Merrell when I worked at an outfitter - Loved them on lighter trips. With heavier loads I use a more sturdy boot with more traction.

Meriadoc
02-28-2014, 17:53
Merry-
Do you need "boots" you mentioned maintaining the appearance of boots- assuming it's for a job then?
I have that problem in construction- you have to wear boots. If so those Military boots look great- as you said just wear them loose up top.
I wear Merrel's for work- mainly because when you need the "work" appearance it's hard to explain that your neon lime shoes are really boots. The merrell hikers blend in enough that nobody looks twice. Asolo has some too.
The Salomon Synapse Mid is a possibility, but you loose the look of a work boot and they may be discontinued- http://www.backcountry.com/salomon-synapse-mid-hiking-boot-mens

. . .
[C]onsider homemade gators from 1.9 oz uncoated sil nylon. You may go through a few pairs but I make my packs, skirts, and other items from it and it is more durable than you might think and not as stiff as the heavier cordura. You could also put some 1" webbing vertically- maybe a strip on the shin and one on each ankle to take the main abuse if you're in really rough stuff. Make sure you get uncoated- you will sweat like a hog otherwise. It's usually $7 a yard and you can find it at Jo-Ann or Quest outfitters online.

In scouts I made mukluks with regular canvas, Sorell boot liners, and paracord. Once I had the basic shape and fabric cut right to wrap the liner I simply wrapped paracord around the whole thing like a sandal instead of a lace system since I couldn't sew. You could probably do better- but the important part- After I had them right I had my brother use a thick sharpie to trace my foot onto the sides of the canvas and then took them off and coated my foot print with about an 1/8" of shoe goo to make a sole. The rest of the canvas was sealed with sno-seal. Worked pretty good for basic tramps and winter camps. The paracord wrap gave them some decent traction and the shoe goo stayed fairly flexible and lasted a few seasons of occasional use.

You hit the nail on the head. This is for work. When solo, I really don't care what my shoes look like. I wrapped a tarp around my feet for a while. (see below)

I really like your idea of the homemade gaiters. The gaiters I own do not fit around my heavier winter boot setup and that would solve one of my problems. For the summer I'm still hopeful to use sandals without gaiters but I'm preparing for the worst :P.

Thanks for sharing your mukluk making experience. That is very helpful.
I have made similar mukluks. I made the liners out of a wool blanket. Then, because I hadn't (and still haven't) finished the leather bottoms, I cut up a tarp and wrapped that around my foot, tying it in place. The liners and tarp kept my feet warm but the tarp wore out quickly and gluing thin rubber soles to the tarp did not work that well. I may be trying your method if I fail to finish the leather bottoms.

leaftye
02-28-2014, 18:08
I can't wait to hear what you think of the Mini-Mils.

Just Bill
03-01-2014, 16:04
I can't wait to hear what you think of the Mini-Mils.
Yar keep us posted. Reminds me of a technical version of the high top Minnetonka moccasins I had as a yout. Might turn into a go-to bushwhacking shoe.
Best of luck with all of it.

Meriadoc
03-06-2014, 21:20
Initial impressions of the Mini-Mils:

The heel is hard and the rise in the heel is noticeable. When walking around the house I have to pay attention to my mechanics and shorten my stride a little more to avoid a heel strike and rolling motion. (I land with almost a flat foot when I am walking - the faster I go the more I land on my forefeet, particularly when I am rock hopping. I stride at a length to keep my feet under me and my body balanced at all times.) This is probably going to be less of a problem on a trail because the trail is not a hard flat floor. Still, it's a bit of a disappointment.

The higher tops of the shoe are great. Very flexible. It feels like very minimal restriction on ankle movement. It's enough of a restriction that I can feel it, but I don't feel the drag on any motions and I still have complete ankle motion even with the boot securely laced to the top.

The lacing system is good and lets me snug my heel into the boot.

The forefoot feels a bit narrow and a bit short in height. I think I ordered a half size too small so that could contribute to it. Still, the height of the toe box is shorter than I would like.

The boot is constructed of thick unlined leather in all the right places (heel and forefoot) so I am confident that it would break in well and be more comfortable the longer it is worn.

Since this pair is one half size too small I won't be wearing this pair outside the house or any further. I will either exchange them for a different size or pursue something else. The heel is making me revisit other options.

Just Bill
03-07-2014, 17:30
Sorry to hear about the heel- they seemed very promising.
I can still do about a 4mm drop, although sounds like the issue is not just the drop but the material itself?
Best of luck.

AngelEyez
03-08-2014, 03:23
I got these snow sneakers from LL Beans. There waterproof TEK2.5® system. Let face it I have REALLY wide feet note why I generally wear men over women style <but not with these> lol. Great ankle support. I find them light wight and very comfortable. Good to -5. Comes in Velcro or lace ups. http://www.llbean.com/llb/search/?freeText=snow+sneakers&init=1

Snowleopard
03-08-2014, 12:48
Belleville Mini-Mils. I think I will try them out with the NEOS overshoes you mentioned Snowleopard. Have you tried them with crampons at all?

I am also talking with Warmlite about some vapor barrier socks. They are much cheaper than the Gore-Tex socks and are true vapor barriers. Will see! I should get some really tall ones because the overshoes (Navigators) are 15" tall. Slightly ludicrous.

Crampons with NEOS: I have Camp Magix Crampons that fit on my size XL NEOS. These are more of a crampon than microspikes are, but less of a crampon than you would use for ice climbing. The limiting factor is probably the relative softness of the NEOS with felt liners, so they may not be secure enough for more dangerous climbs. I haven't pushed them to the limit, but they work well where microspikes work. On thick hard ice or steeper slopes they work better than microspikes. You're less likely to roll out of them on steep downhills than with microspikes. Microspikes are more convenient for putting on/taking off.
http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11755949&cp=3677347.11360109.3688336
More people use the Hillsound Trail Pro Crampon as an upgrade from microspikes. I think the camps are adjust over a larger size range than the hillsounds so you might need to try the HS on before buying.
http://hillsound.com/hillsound-product/trail-crampon-pro/

leaftye
03-10-2014, 07:36
Sorry to here it has too much heel drop for you. If you're not going to return it, you might as well swap it for your correct size in case you change your mind later.

ezdoesit
03-10-2014, 11:33
My shoes that replaced the Altras and lasted 900+ miles:
http://www.teva.com/mens-terra-fi-lite-hiking-sandals/737872948634,default,pd.html
Not quite a zero drop and they had a rugged sole but I still felt things fairly well. I'm sentimentally attached to this model, but I have since replaced them with:
https://www.lunasandals.com/ (https://www.lunasandals.com/products/37-mono)


Cold weather (really cold weather - it can't be wet):
http://shop.mukluks.com/Mukluks/departments/24/
I'm not certain these are minimalist - they do seem to have a pretty rugged sole. But they also appear to have zero drop.
The steep price inspired me to sew my own. This project is still in progress but it's going well. I will probably also sew moccasins for spring and summer once I get the method mastered.




Thanks! Bookmarked as an option.
Hey Meriadoc did you wear any special socks with the Tevas?
I am thinking of buying the same Teva and do my Thru-Hike in them was think Seal-Skin water proof socks?
Thank

Meriadoc
03-10-2014, 19:21
Hey Meriadoc did you wear any special socks with the Tevas?
I am thinking of buying the same Teva and do my Thru-Hike in them was think Seal-Skin water proof socks?
Thank

No special socks. But during the break in period (toughening my feet for the three attachment points of the sandals) I wore Darn Tough socks off and on. I would hike without socks until I developed hot spots and then wear socks for a day or two. After one or two weeks I left the socks off altogether except in rain or mud. There, the socks provided more friction between my foot and the sandal.

For weather warmer than 40 degrees, I would not wear any socks at all except during the break in period and when it is muddy or raining. Adding a goretex sock eliminates the wonderful breathability of a sandal.

For cold weather, I haven't experimented with goretex socks so I don't have personal experience with that. I have heard of others who use them with success. I only recently acquired some vapor barrier socks (warmlite - they rock!) so I will have to give this a try.

I should note that I determined that sandals work best for me when I leave the straps loose. When I step, the friction between my foot and the sandal is sufficient without the straps doing any work. I find that this method eliminates blisters. The straps keep the sandal on my foot for liftoff. This is lso why I found it critical to add socks for additional friction when conditions were muddy.

Finally, I really truly loved that model of sandal in 2012. Love is not too strong a word. But I saw a pair from 2013 in the store a week or two ago and found that the sole compound had changed. It is not nearly as grippy as it was. I recommend trying it out and making sure it will suit what you need.

Meriadoc
03-10-2014, 19:28
Crampons with NEOS: I have Camp Magix Crampons that fit on my size XL NEOS. These are more of a crampon than microspikes are, but less of a crampon than you would use for ice climbing. The limiting factor is probably the relative softness of the NEOS with felt liners, so they may not be secure enough for more dangerous climbs. I haven't pushed them to the limit, but they work well where microspikes work. On thick hard ice or steeper slopes they work better than microspikes. You're less likely to roll out of them on steep downhills than with microspikes. Microspikes are more convenient for putting on/taking off.
http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11755949&cp=3677347.11360109.3688336
More people use the Hillsound Trail Pro Crampon as an upgrade from microspikes. I think the camps are adjust over a larger size range than the hillsounds so you might need to try the HS on before buying.
http://hillsound.com/hillsound-product/trail-crampon-pro/

Thanks for the feedback. The NEOS Navigator were delivered at the end of last week. I wore them on a hike to the top of Pleasant Mountain yesterday but the conditions were so nice that I didn't even use microspikes. I'll have to give those a try. I will also give them a try with my crampons - Black Diamond Contact - which appear virtually identical to the Camp Magix Crampons.

The NEOS Navigator gets a preliminary grade of A.

The Warmlite vapor barrier socks get a preliminary grade of A too.

ezdoesit
03-10-2014, 21:04
Thanks for the answering Meriadoc

Meriadoc
03-21-2014, 21:09
Second impressions of the Mini Mils!
I tried three different shoes.
NB 110 boot - too narrow
Lems Boulder Boot - a very good minimalist boot. Very flexible, excellent ground feel (as tried indoors). No heel drop. But my sizing was off and I was (a) ready to be done with this and (b) decided to go with the more rugged Mini Mils.

So here's the tale:
As I said last time, the MM's were too small and the heel was hard. The next size up arrived and the fit was definitely better. Except that dratted heel was still quite bothersome. I went back and forth on this a good bit before hitting on the solution.

For some odd reason I have not yet fathomed, removing the insole mostly solves the hard heel rise. I cannot explain it because the insole does not appear to be any thicker on the heel than the toe. Removing the insole made the shoe too loose in the heel. Solution: wear Smartwool mountaineering socks. Voila! Problem solved. Plus, now they are fairly warm even with the insole removed.

I have worn these for a couple days and just completed a decent hike in them. Here are my impressions:
On hard surfaces, floors or roads, the heel rise is very noticeable when walking. (I have worn solely zero drop shoes for one year now.) On trails covered in snow, as expected, the heel rise is not as noticeable.

I didn't find them particularly breathable when I wore them to work (indoor high school). In the mountaineering socks my feet were too warm and sweated.

They were comfortable temperature wise on snow and ice for two hours wearing heavyweight smartwool socks. With these lighter weight socks, there was a bit more room in the boot but not too much. Traction on snow and ice is good. The flex is good but still stiff enough that I am optimistic about using these with a NEOS and crampons (BD Contact with the flex center bar). I found that my heel tended to move forward a little bit which allowed the up-down motion of each step to occur in air. This means no rubbing blisters.

Ankle mobility is decent. The leather toe and leather heel are thick and robust although the surface is napped.

I think that's all for now. After I have put them through their paces for a while I'll see about writing up a full review, probably in its own thread.

Jacob Byrne
05-14-2014, 11:21
Solomon has come out with a new shoe/boot similar to the trail runners are known for but they have an upper over ankle section, I do not own pair but i have seen them at REI. hope this helps