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The Weasel
01-13-2014, 23:25
I'll be restarting my hike this Spring, although doing it as a sectioner. Since last on the Trail, my hearing has gone from just pretty bad to just about nada, and I've gotten a cochlear implant, which I can't easily wear while hiking and not at all while sleeping. As a result, I'll probably bring Chase The Rocket Dog, who is my well-trained Lab "alert dog," who I depend on to be alerted to most sounds while hiking or lying down. (Those with very long memories on WB will please stifle their laughter at the idea of me hiking with a dog.) I'm curious if anyone has any experience with hearing-assistance dogs on the AT or other trails. I have verified that Chase can accompany me in areas that are otherwise dog-restricted.

The Weasel

kayak karl
01-13-2014, 23:51
know nothing about assist dogs, but i wish yous two the best :) what section you doing?

4eyedbuzzard
01-14-2014, 01:03
Best of luck on your hike. And which one of you old dogs is older in dog years? ;)

HooKooDooKu
01-14-2014, 02:08
While I'm not extensively knowledgeable about the AT in general, I think (based on what I can remember from past discussions) that the ONLY place pets are restricted on the trail is through the Great Smoky Mountain National Park.I've been involved in discussions regarding service dogs in the GSMNP, and unfortunately, I don't recall all the details of those discussions. But the bottom line of those discussions (based on documents that could be found at the time) was that service animals, as defined by the ADA (which basically included animals that provided a service, NOT animals used as 'emotional support') were allowed.However, because the GSMNP doesn't publish much information about service dogs (they mostly only publish the rules that 'pets' are not allowed in the back country), I don't recall exactly what you had to do to be allowed to bring your service animal. I THINK you were required to obtain a permit from the rangers office, so before you head into the GSMNP, you should at least call the GSMNP back country office and ask what is the proper procedure for bringing your service animal into the park.

The Weasel
01-14-2014, 10:05
I'll be picking up about 20 miles north of Mt Rogers. Chase has got me beat in age, probably, but he's also in better shape. As for permits, "assist dogs" are generally limited to seeing-eye (blindness) and alert (deafness) dogs; others ("emotional" assistance) are not covered the same way by ADA. "Permits" or "registration" aren't necessary, or even formal/certified training, although I carry a collar tag for Chase showing he is designated as an "alert dog". I'm past GSMNP, but approaching (one day!) Shenandoah, which will be hinky about dogs, too. Mostly, I'm interested in whether anyone has trail experience with an alert dog, since this would be Chase's longest walk.

The Weasel

PS: Baxter is also dog-excluding, as I recall. I've got a while to plan that one, though.

Hipcheck
01-14-2014, 10:21
Shenendoahs aren't a problem.. There is only one small (half a mile?) jointed trail that has a "no dogs" sign.

Slo-go'en
01-14-2014, 12:28
PS: Baxter is also dog-excluding, as I recall. I've got a while to plan that one, though.

Baxter is no ifs ands or buts. No way, no how. It's unlikely a dog could make it up that trail without a lot of assist anyway. There is really nothing to hear there except the wind blowing anyway.

If Chase can alert you to people coming up from behind, that's about all you'd need him for. You don't want or need him to alert you to every little forest sound, especially at night.

BTW, I've meet a couple of deaf hikers on the AT and they had no trouble on thier own.

Ender
01-14-2014, 12:42
Basically, if it's a certified service animal, and you carry the certificate with you, you can bring the dog the entire length of the trail.
http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Good luck on your hike!

kayak karl
01-14-2014, 15:19
what's he suppose to do leave Chase at home? that ain't happening :)

Tuckahoe
01-14-2014, 15:43
Weasel! It's great to see you posting again. I have missed seeing you around here.

Rolls Kanardly
01-14-2014, 15:45
The Weasel



Have a good trip with you companion. Rolls

HooKooDooKu
01-14-2014, 19:11
Basically, if it's a certified service animal, and you carry the certificate with you, you can bring the dog the entire length of the trail.
http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Good luck on your hike!

What certificate? Certified by who?

From what I recall about previous discussions on the topic, one of the problems in dealing with people who try to 'fake' their pets as service animals is that there is no nationally recognized certification process and therefore no national "certificate" (however, some states to have certification processes).

However, I did find the memo (http://www.nps.gov/policy/serviceanimals.pdf) I previously referenced. It is a memo from the U.S. Department of the Interior to National Park Superintendents (http://www.nps.gov/policy/serviceanimals.pdf). It provides guidance on how the ADA should be applied to service animals in National Parks. It generally requires that service animals be allowed where ever the public is allowed (i.e. not subject to regulations concerning 'pets'), but it still provides Superintendents a few 'loop holes' that would allow them to even exclude service animals in limited situations.

So it would seem that you should EXPECT a legitimate service animal could go anywhere you do. But because there's always loop holes, it would always be prudent to contact authorities of any place you plan to take a service animal to determine exactly how they are applying/complying with the ADA.

The Weasel
01-14-2014, 20:43
1) As for Baxter, the Federal ADA trumps Baxter State Park regulations. Chase goes anywhere in that park, as long as I'm with him.
2) Thanks for telling me I don't need to hear anything on the AT. I disagree. There's a lot to hear, both for safety and for other reasons. If you really feel that way, make sure you plug your ears when you hit the trail.
3) Chase doesn't stay at home. He disapproves of being left behind for anything. Trains, planes, automobiles, boats. He's game.
4) ADA doesn't require "certification" for blind/hearing-alert dogs. That's a myth; there is no set of standards for training, but it's largely self-determining. But if you try to fake it, there are some nasty penalties.
5) Thanks, Tuck; nice to be here again. I'm a lot closer to Williamsburg now.

The Weasel

The Weasel
01-14-2014, 20:50
If I know you are hiking and I am close by Chase better be hungry cause I will pack a chewy or two for you to give to him. I could never take my GSP female on the AT. She would think a bear is a big fuzzy play toy. Rolls


Thanks, but generally it's considered most polite by the handicapped crowd to sort of ignore a working service animal, since it kind of puts the dog's companion off-stride (figuratively as well as literally). But I appreciate the thought. Unlike your GSP, Chase is "on the job" and needs to focus on that. Trust me: I pay him well. (Smile)

As for "contacting" people about service animals, most blind/deaf/Hard of Hearing ("HOH") people know the types of "few" exceptions, and life's too short for me to call every place I'm going ahead of time. So far as hiking the AT and most other trails, there won't be exclusions for seeing eye-hearing alert dogs. Overall, tho, HooKoo, you're right (thanks).

But I remain interested in anyone with experience on the AT with a service animal.

The Weasel

max patch
01-14-2014, 20:56
PS: Baxter is also dog-excluding, as I recall. I've got a while to plan that one, though.

As is the Bear Mtn Zoo.

Alligator
01-14-2014, 21:28
As is the Bear Mtn Zoo.Service dogs are allowed in zoos per ADA, but the nature of the exhibits may disallow the dog. For example, an open air zoo exhibit that lacks a restraining barrier. I can't address the Bear Mt Zoo though as it was closed when I passed that way. After closing time, the official route goes around the zoo if that is important to you.

SawnieRobertson
01-14-2014, 21:55
The universal indication of a dog's being a dog for the deaf is an ORANGE leash. Because of the myth that there are people behind every tree falsely claiming to need a service dog, I carry my doctor's prescription with Fleur and me at all times. No one has the right to demand it of me because of its being essentially a private medical record, but I do not mind showing it in some instances. For instance, I whip it out when we arrive at the check-in counter at Southwest. In exchange, we are whisked right through and are allowed to board before the general public in order to have a chance to choose a seat that will allow Fleur the best comfort on the floor. (bulkhead) I do not know whether you are beginning 20 miles north or south of Mt. Rogers. NOBO? SOBO?
Perhaps we will meet on the trail as I live in the vicinity and will be giving Fleur a lot of time out there.

Slo-go'en
01-14-2014, 22:05
1) As for Baxter, the Federal ADA trumps Baxter State Park regulations. Chase goes anywhere in that park, as long as I'm with him.
2) Thanks for telling me I don't need to hear anything on the AT. I disagree. There's a lot to hear, both for safety and for other reasons. If you really feel that way, make sure you plug your ears when you hit the trail.

The Weasel

Don't be too sure about #1. The park can deny access for pretty much any reason they want and if they have to deny you access to prevent a dog from entering, that is within thier right. Although it called a state park, it really isn't. In any event, they wouldn't allow you to climb the Hunt trail with a dog strickly for safety reasons. Finally, you really should respect rules forbiding pets from certain wilderness areas simply because it is the right and moral thing to do.

As for #2, I kind of envy you to some extent. Not having hear the tent flapping in the wind or rain beating on a tin roof or the guy next to you snoring all night is actually a blessing. The only real down side is not being able to easialy converse with people, but that too can be a blessing at times.

As for #3, I don't own a dog for the very reasons you don't want to leave him home.

Alligator
01-14-2014, 23:24
http://lh6.ggpht.com/-qAKJFj_GCbE/UDUDtdjT2gI/AAAAAAAApac/GzOVBtTtxxk/s971/1%20%2866%29.jpg


At Baxter State Park
left to right: Jean Hoekwater of Baxter State Park; Bill Irwin, Appalachian Trail thru-hiker and author of "Blind Courage"; Orient or one of Bill's successor guide dogs; Buzz Caverly, then director of Baxter State Park; Jay Beveridge ("Moose Legs", AT name originated by Buzz, 2x Appalachian Trail thru-hiker)

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6AYNKwjP2JGAyfs2wtd2la2CVnFDW-UDgof1rGKCwiw (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6AYNKwjP2JGAyfs2wtd2la2CVnFDW-UDgof1rGKCwiw)

Slo-go'en, this is the Dogs on the AT subforum. Under the ADA, which is a law passed by Congress, people have the right to bring their service dogs into state parks. They are also allowed on federal land through the rehab act and the Dept of Interior adheres to the ADA as well. Service dogs are not pets they are working animals. A person utilizing a service dog is exercising their rights under the law. You can't keep popping into threads in this subforum telling people they can't/shouldn't bring their service dog where they are legally allowed to. You are discriminating against the disabled. Are you going to tell someone they can't bring their hearing aids, their medications, perhaps their prosthesis because you think they could do without it? This subforum is not set up for people to argue whether dogs should be on the trail and that includes service dogs. It's set up for people to educate hikers about good trail dog behavior. Having a service dog in a legal location is a legitimate and acceptable post.

The picture above is from Baxter. Can't say what their policy is but it looks welcoming. I sent an email out to the ME State Attorney General's office for further clarification. The AG sits on the BSP Authority.

HooKooDooKu
01-15-2014, 00:01
Don't be too sure about #1. The park can deny access for pretty much any reason they want and if they have to deny you access to prevent a dog from entering, that is within thier right. Although it called a state park, it really isn't. In any event, they wouldn't allow you to climb the Hunt trail with a dog strickly for safety reasons.

Weasel,
When I suggest you contact authorities, I don't mean for everywhere you go... just for the places you know you could run into problems.
Base on what's been discussed in this thread so far, it sounds like the only places along the whole AT we're talking about is GSMNP, SNP, & Baxter.


Finally, you really should respect rules forbiding pets from certain wilderness areas simply because it is the right and moral thing to do.
Slo-go'en,
IMHO, you are either out-of-line, or your statement is irrelevant to the discussion.
While your statement is absolutely correct (everyone should respect rules concerning pets), we're not talking about pets; we're talking about service animals.

Slo-go'en
01-15-2014, 12:47
I'm sorry and I apolgize if I seem to be discrimitory. I realise a service dog can help the handycaped live a more normal and fullfilling life and make it possible to go to places and do things which they otherwise would not be able to do. That they be allowed into stores, resturants, public transportation and the like is a legal (and moral) right which I have no issue with.

I do have issues when they start talking about bringing thier dog into restricted wilderness areas. They need to consider the reasons for the those bans and respect those rules and the possible impact thier actions may have if they don't. With that, I promise to bite my tongue and never say another word on this subject.

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 15:27
1) Alligator has it pretty down correct. If there is a bona fide reason why a dog presents a different problem than merely making access possible for its companion, then the ADA allows exclusion. Otherwise, not. The Federal "supremacy clause" in the Constitution trumps Baxter's otherwise legitimate exclusion of dogs. Alligator correct notes that assist animals are not "pets". If you're not aware of that, go look it up. Trust me on this: I'm a lawyer, and I've won cases like this, both on ADA and other grounds, for myself and others.
2) Anyone who says they are jealous of my lack of hearing "to some extent" or otherwise is free to put on headphones, crank up The Boss to about 175db, and then live with the lack of ability to hear. Otherwise, comments like that are pretty offensive, much as if you said to an amputee that she was lucky for not having to buy two shoes. If you can't avoid insulting the handicapped, at least do it elsewhere, please.
3) I'd really like to hear more of Sawnie's experiences. I've never heard of the "orange leash" issue, but Chase flies with me (trains, too) and we never have a problem. And we get preboarded so he can be out of the way. But I'd like to know about Fleur, and how she/he and you function on the Trail. More please!
4) Slo, you don't "not own a dog for the same reason" as me. I own one so I can answer the door, and so I know when there's a siren going off. You really ARE very, very out of line.
5) While the Maine AG will provide some useful insight, it's just not a debate topic. Pets can be excluded. Hearing/sight assistance animals can't, except under very unusual circumstances, none of which are likely to be found between any white blaze from Springer to Katahdin or their access trails.

The Weasel

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 15:31
I'm sorry and I apolgize if I seem to be discrimitory. I realise a service dog can help the handycaped live a more normal and fullfilling life and make it possible to go to places and do things which they otherwise would not be able to do. That they be allowed into stores, resturants, public transportation and the like is a legal (and moral) right which I have no issue with.

I do have issues when they start talking about bringing thier dog into restricted wilderness areas. They need to consider the reasons for the those bans and respect those rules and the possible impact thier actions may have if they don't. With that, I promise to bite my tongue and never say another word on this subject.

1) Like most people, you think being wrong doesn't matter if you didn't mean it to be. I'm not "handycaped." I'm blinkin' deaf, and I'd really like to hear the wind flap my tent, dude.
2) Keep your "issues" to yourself. Pet bans are different from screwing over the handicapped. Baxter and the National Parks know better, even if you don't.
3) Keep your word and be quiet until you learn some greater sensitivity. Reading this thread may help. Then feel free to stay "on topic," which is, "What are some ways that your alert dog helped and how did you function with her/him." Read the OP and otherwise leave your prejudices at the front door.

The Weasel

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 15:35
Hookoo -

I realize what you meant, but other than the occasional small stores, pretty much every location (and certainly state/federal parks/forests/etc and every governmental office or staffer I've met) understands the ADA about sight/hearing dogs. Walk into one and when someone says, "No pets," you just say "Assistance Dog" (or have a vest on, if you're lazy) and you get a nod and a pass. That's why I'm not concerned about access issues. Besides, YOU try to call a National Park and tell them you're coming. Yeah, you and a couple million others; please remember this call! :)

HikerMom58
01-15-2014, 15:46
I'll be restarting my hike this Spring, although doing it as a sectioner. Since last on the Trail, my hearing has gone from just pretty bad to just about nada, and I've gotten a cochlear implant, which I can't easily wear while hiking and not at all while sleeping. As a result, I'll probably bring Chase The Rocket Dog, who is my well-trained Lab "alert dog," who I depend on to be alerted to most sounds while hiking or lying down. (Those with very long memories on WB will please stifle their laughter at the idea of me hiking with a dog.) I'm curious if anyone has any experience with hearing-assistance dogs on the AT or other trails. I have verified that Chase can accompany me in areas that are otherwise dog-restricted.

The Weasel

Hi The Weasel.. I'm fairly new here so, what do you mean by this statement you made? (in bold) Were you not a fan of dogs hiking on the trail, previously?

Also, do you feel confident that your dog would be safe hiking in the restricted areas, that Slo is mentioning? Is that the real issue here? IDK... JW.

Different Socks
01-15-2014, 15:47
I have met two people with hearing assist dogs. They and their dogs were wonderful. One of the owners and I eevn went to Arches NP together. We had no problems except for the hearing people that would make off hand comments like, "She's not blind. What does she need a dog for?"

Different Socks
01-15-2014, 15:49
Hi The Weasel.. I'm fairly new here so, what do you mean by this statement you made? (in bold) Were you not a fan of dogs hiking on the trail, previously?

Also, do you feel confident that your dog would be safe hiking in the restricted areas, that Slo is mentioning? Is that the real issue here? IDK... JW.

Hikermom, what do you mean by "safe" hiking in "restricted areas? The dog is allowed to go anywhere a seeing eye dog can, there is no difference.

max patch
01-15-2014, 15:54
Hikermom, what do you mean by "safe" hiking in "restricted areas? The dog is allowed to go anywhere a seeing eye dog can, there is no difference.

Can a dog safely hike Katahdin? Or Moosilaukee? I don't know, just asking.

Different Socks
01-15-2014, 15:55
1) As for Baxter, the Federal ADA trumps Baxter State Park regulations. Chase goes anywhere in that park, as long as I'm with him.
2) Thanks for telling me I don't need to hear anything on the AT. I disagree. There's a lot to hear, both for safety and for other reasons. If you really feel that way, make sure you plug your ears when you hit the trail.
3) Chase doesn't stay at home. He disapproves of being left behind for anything. Trains, planes, automobiles, boats. He's game.
4) ADA doesn't require "certification" for blind/hearing-alert dogs. That's a myth; there is no set of standards for training, but it's largely self-determining. But if you try to fake it, there are some nasty penalties.
5) Thanks, Tuck; nice to be here again. I'm a lot closer to Williamsburg now.

The Weasel


AMEN Weasel!!! I am only a degree or two above legally deaf and it is good to see others like yourself getting out onto the trails.

HikerMom58
01-15-2014, 15:58
Hikermom, what do you mean by "safe" hiking in "restricted areas? The dog is allowed to go anywhere a seeing eye dog can, there is no difference.

I mean, what if the hiking trail itself might not be suitable for dogs. Like they might not be to handle the rock scramble section, for an example. We just hiked Old Rag Mountain. Dogs are not allowed on the Ridge Trail. I can see why, there's no way a dog would get through that trail without assistance from a human. Dogs wouldn't be able to physically do this trail. Other trails may not be "safe" for them, as far as, if they slipped off a steep rock without any "working hands".. etc... That's what I'm talking about..

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 16:01
HikerMom -

I had a certain notoriety, in years long since past, for (among other things) being REALLY upset and ranting about dogs on the trail unless the companion kept the dog on a leash 24/7 (which I do), in light of the risk of losing a dog. A few might remember those rants.

As for dog safety, I don't take risks with Chase and he doesn't with me. And if there is some bona fide issue with his presence, such as someone else's health, or open zoo issues, or such, neither of us goes there and I find another form of accommodation. But those are very rare. Other than that, he's very sure footed, able to climb and descend, and if need be, I can get booties for him.

Socks, tell me more about the hearing dogs and how they functioned and what they did. Thanks!

The Weasel

SawnieRobertson
01-15-2014, 16:03
The orange lead is not an issue. It, like a vest, merely helps others to understand that this is a service dog, and, for the knowledgeable, it reduces the need for the innocent inquiry so many bumble through: Pardon me, but what is your dog a service dog for? As for two "moments" that occurred in the past six months following very abusive article in a North Carolina newspaper, I finally whipped out the physician's prescription to the admissions attendant at the Cherokee Heritage Museum in Cherokee, North Carolina. He then allowed us to enter but with a grumble. The other was at the LaQuinta Inn at Wytheville, Virginia. Fleur and I went to the breakfast area for my breakfast. Before I even was seated, a desk clerk came to me in front of the room full of other guests and ordered us out of there because she is a dog. I protested that she is a service dog. He persisted. The room was filled with people calling out to him to stop, that they were not disturbed by the dog's presence. I lifted my chin and walked out, hungry and in serious need of my morning coffee. In both cases I handed the person one of the cards that I carry advising them of Fleur's right to accompany the person on the other end of the leash. I did nothing more to the Cherokee, but I did write to the manager of the LaQuinta. After informing me that he would hold a meeting with his attorneys, the owners, etc., etc., he never responded further. Why was I so wimpy? Because I was dealing with dumb ignorants and because I was with my daughter and her husband from New Mexico on a short weekend together. We were having a delightful time. I could wait to strike another day, which I just did in passing along my experiences to The Weasel.

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 16:04
Hiker Mom -

In my first 600 miles of the AT, I'm only aware of one place that Chase would have had a problem, and that was Helen Mountain (I think) and it had an alternate whiteblazed trail around the steep section. He's a lab/grey mix, 50# and slim, so he doesn't have the problems a larger dog would have.

TW

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 16:12
Sawnie -

Complain to the US EEOC or your state civil rights agency. They administer the ADA, and trust me: You'll get a response.

I don't use vests because they get too many "petters" and "talkers" who interrupt Chase's work.

Cherokee isn't "in the USA." It's an Indian Reservation, and US civil rights laws generally don't apply there. Unless there's a law passed by the tribal legislature. Then you can sue only in the Tribal Court. Good luck. LOL

TW

HikerMom58
01-15-2014, 16:18
HikerMom -

I had a certain notoriety, in years long since past, for (among other things) being REALLY upset and ranting about dogs on the trail unless the companion kept the dog on a leash 24/7 (which I do), in light of the risk of losing a dog. A few might remember those rants.

As for dog safety, I don't take risks with Chase and he doesn't with me. And if there is some bona fide issue with his presence, such as someone else's health, or open zoo issues, or such, neither of us goes there and I find another form of accommodation. But those are very rare. Other than that, he's very sure footed, able to climb and descend, and if need be, I can get booties for him.

Socks, tell me more about the hearing dogs and how they functioned and what they did. Thanks!

The Weasel

I got ya... gotta love those ole "dog threads". :eek::D

I'm also sure that if someone told you your dog would have a difficult time , on a certain trail, or that it would be putting your dog at risk to hike it, you would make a wise decision. It's not an issue, then. :0)
No prob. :>)

full conditions
01-15-2014, 16:24
The orange lead is not an issue. It, like a vest, merely helps others to understand that this is a service dog, and, for the knowledgeable, it reduces the need for the innocent inquiry so many bumble through: Pardon me, but what is your dog a service dog for? As for two "moments" that occurred in the past six months following very abusive article in a North Carolina newspaper, I finally whipped out the physician's prescription to the admissions attendant at the Cherokee Heritage Museum in Cherokee, North Carolina. He then allowed us to enter but with a grumble. The other was at the LaQuinta Inn at Wytheville, Virginia. Fleur and I went to the breakfast area for my breakfast. Before I even was seated, a desk clerk came to me in front of the room full of other guests and ordered us out of there because she is a dog. I protested that she is a service dog. He persisted. The room was filled with people calling out to him to stop, that they were not disturbed by the dog's presence. I lifted my chin and walked out, hungry and in serious need of my morning coffee. In both cases I handed the person one of the cards that I carry advising them of Fleur's right to accompany the person on the other end of the leash. I did nothing more to the Cherokee, but I did write to the manager of the LaQuinta. After informing me that he would hold a meeting with his attorneys, the owners, etc., etc., he never responded further. Why was I so wimpy? Because I was dealing with dumb ignorants and because I was with my daughter and her husband from New Mexico on a short weekend together. We were having a delightful time. I could wait to strike another day, which I just did in passing along my experiences to The Weasel.
I don't think you were "wimpy"at all Sawnie. That was one of the bravest and most dignified things I've read about in a while - thanks for sharing that.

SawnieRobertson
01-15-2014, 17:25
Gee, thanks, Full Conditions. It has been a looooong time since I have been accused of being brave and especially of being dignified. And, yes, TW, I had in my mind that I might be standing on Cherokee ground where perhaps, unlike at Baxter or Smoky, federal law might not prevail. In any case, Fleur found the museum fascinating, especially the model soldiers and Native Americans in the displays. You could just see the wheels in her brain turning~~Is that really a human? It is an incredible museum.

rickb
01-15-2014, 18:07
I bet it will be both fascinating and rewarding to see how your canine hiking partner reacts to new sounds found on the trail. If he alerts in the middle of the night, you might want a some real candle power (I am a Fenix fan), though. Any way to teach him different alerts for animals vs. people?

Welcome back to WB, The Weasel.

Slo-go'en
01-15-2014, 18:23
I bet it will be both fascinating and rewarding to see how your canine hiking partner reacts to new sounds found on the trail. If he alerts in the middle of the night, you might want a some real candle power (I am a Fenix fan), though. Any way to teach him different alerts for animals vs. people?

Welcome back to WB, The Weasel.

Forget my eariler rant, I too am curious about this. I can see how it would be easy to train for man made sounds like phone, door bell, smoke alarm (most importent I would think) and traffic , but what natural sounds do you want to be alerted to and how do you train for that? Also, since barking must not be very effective, how do you get alerted?

Ender
01-15-2014, 18:48
4) ADA doesn't require "certification" for blind/hearing-alert dogs. That's a myth; there is no set of standards for training, but it's largely self-determining. But if you try to fake it, there are some nasty penalties.


That's good to know. I was under the mistaken impression that you did need a certificate, but after you said that I dug some more and you're completely correct (of course, since you're dealing with this on a daily basis you would actually know). Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for correcting me. And in any case, have a wonderful hike!

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 22:05
I got ya... gotta love those ole "dog threads". :eek::D

I'm also sure that if someone told you your dog would have a difficult time , on a certain trail, or that it would be putting your dog at risk to hike it, you would make a wise decision. It's not an issue, then. :0)
No prob. :>)

HikerMom, why do you feel compelled to keep saying this? You sound like someone who is saying, "You should keep in mind that your wheelchair might get in the way of other people," or "Your prosthetic leg might get broken, so don't use the trail," or any number of things that people who really don't want the handicapped to be present because their participation makes YOU think of reasons THEY should not be where YOU like to be. I didn't ask you to tell me "When should you think about your dog's safety." I've been backpacking for over half a century, and I can figure that question out myself just fine, thank you very much. The OP here was, in essence, "I'm going to do this, and I'd like to know the experiences of others who have used alert dogs or seen them on the trail." If that's you, I've missed your insights. If it isn't, perhaps you might stop with the "Hey, crip! Think about how you and your dumb "alert doggy" don't really belong out here." At least I don't have to fall down 5,000 times or so to hike the trail blind. So. if you know that "certain trail" that would "be putting your dog at risk," feel free to tell me where it is, just in case I'm too damn stupid to recognize it when I see it (although no, it wasn't Helen Mountain; it was Albert Mountain). Otherwise, perhaps there's a topic elsewhere that you can help someone with.

TW

TW

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 22:14
I bet it will be both fascinating and rewarding to see how your canine hiking partner reacts to new sounds found on the trail. If he alerts in the middle of the night, you might want a some real candle power (I am a Fenix fan), though. Any way to teach him different alerts for animals vs. people?

Welcome back to WB, The Weasel.

Rick, it's both fascinating and rewarding, as you correctly note. When things like that happen, I process it on two levels: The first is sort of as the hearing-abled do: "Something occurred." The other is on the animal psychology level: "I wonder why Chase is reacting as he does, with an alert look and fur raised on his back?" Actually, while I have taught Chase some of his "alert reactions," mostly my style of training with him has been the other way around: I observe his reaction to sounds (once I know what the sound was) and then encourage him to react similarly to similar sounds in the future. In essence, HE trains ME, which is very functional, and which most dog owners will intuitively understand after about the third time their dog sits in front of his dinner bowl and stares at it. The "animals vs people" alert is easy, esp at night. "Dogs vs people" is even easier, since it gets an "excited/interested" alert as opposed to an "excited/suspicious" or "concerned/protective" reaction. Chase is pretty patient in teaching me, overall, although he is pretty stingy on giving me treats when I respond properly.

Thanks for the welcome. Nice to see you, too, old timer!

TW

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 22:25
Forget my eariler rant, I too am curious about this. I can see how it would be easy to train for man made sounds like phone, door bell, smoke alarm (most importent I would think) and traffic , but what natural sounds do you want to be alerted to and how do you train for that? Also, since barking must not be very effective, how do you get alerted?

First, as implied in my last post to Rickb, I don't do the "animal tricks" kind of training with Chase. He and I learn together what kind of sounds matter, and what our behaviors will be when those sounds occur. You do that with humans, too: The phone rings, and your partner gets up, even if you didn't hear it; you know by her manner of moving that it's a phone call. And so on. The sounds I want to know about are the same that you want to know, or that you use consciously or subconsciously when you hike: Weather sounds (e.g. wind, thunder), trail sounds (running water, tumbling rocks), people sounds (taking, shouting, fighting), animal sounds (birds - e.g. grouse - taking flight, deer running, raccoons barking), even guns firing. There are a lot more, but Chase alerts me - sometimes just by freezing, lowering his head to his body line, and staring straight ahead, as he did today to "point" at a squirrel that was hiding in leaves about 100 feet away. If I could hear, I would have heard the rustle of the leaves. I didn't; he did. As a result, I enjoyed some wildlife that you would have smiled at, too, having actually heard the little beast! As for the "how," most of his alerts are from body language, and sometimes a bit of noise (Chase is a dog of few words, rarely using more an an "Arrrooooooo" to signify something he wants, such as breakfast. He looks to the side of the trail; I turn my head. And so on. Does that help? (Sawnie may use different methods. We all use what works.)

The Weasel

PS: You're forgiven. Thanks for saying that. -TW

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 22:38
Perhaps you did not meet this guy on Rag Mountain:

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http://goingongoals.com/2010/11/old-rag-mountain/

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 22:41
Well, I wanted to post the picture of the dog who lives across from the Rag Mountain trailhead and apparently summits it daily. It's in the third weblink above. And there seem to be a lot of others. It's kind of like hikers: Some can hike some places, others can't. We all tend to figure that out as we come to them.

TW

HikerMom58
01-15-2014, 22:59
HikerMom, why do you feel compelled to keep saying this? You sound like someone who is saying, "You should keep in mind that your wheelchair might get in the way of other people," or "Your prosthetic leg might get broken, so don't use the trail," or any number of things that people who really don't want the handicapped to be present because their participation makes YOU think of reasons THEY should not be where YOU like to be. I didn't ask you to tell me "When should you think about your dog's safety." I've been backpacking for over half a century, and I can figure that question out myself just fine, thank you very much. The OP here was, in essence, "I'm going to do this, and I'd like to know the experiences of others who have used alert dogs or seen them on the trail." If that's you, I've missed your insights. If it isn't, perhaps you might stop with the "Hey, crip! Think about how you and your dumb "alert doggy" don't really belong out here." At least I don't have to fall down 5,000 times or so to hike the trail blind. So. if you know that "certain trail" that would "be putting your dog at risk," feel free to tell me where it is, just in case I'm too damn stupid to recognize it when I see it (although no, it wasn't Helen Mountain; it was Albert Mountain). Otherwise, perhaps there's a topic elsewhere that you can help someone with.

TW

TW

Whoa... you are coming on strong. Let me process what you are saying to me and mirror it back to you.

In other words, you don't appreciate me questioning you about whether or not you've considered the fact that when a hiking trail says they don't allow dogs, on that trail, the reason might have to do with the dog's safety/ability on that trail. In which case, it would have nothing to do with you and your situation as to why you couldn't access that trail with your dog.

My last post was saying that in no way do I stand in judgement of your ability to make a judgement call about what you deem is a safe hike for your dog. I was saying I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem at all with you.

Dude, it appears to me that you need to take a chill pill.

There's also an new ignore feature on this site. We both could take advantage of that feature if need be... just sayin. :eek:

You seem to be getting along just fine with other people so it might just be ME.

Pardon me for having the nerve to wonder about something sooooo........ stupid! I was actually trying to be friendly. Or... Chatsy even.

I don't know you but I feel bad that you have lost so much of ur hearing. :( It's nice that you have a trained dog, with you, that will allow you to continue to hike. :) That is all!

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 23:18
HikerMom, I suggest that you read the Opening Post, which you have essentially ignored as you tell me how to read signs and how to hike, both of which I've done probably longer than you've been alive, often fairly well even when I didn't have your advice. And thanks for all your efforts to teach me how to be better at being handicapped, but I didn't ask for them and, as Alligator noted, those aren't the purpose of this thread. If you have some useful information about how people can use alert dogs on the trail, it's welcome. Otherwise, go post your discussion about my "judgment" (or lack of it) in another thread that is relevant to "The Weasel is a dumb SOB who hikes really stupidly," although most who have been here over the long haul know THAT thread is worn out, too. So yes, with no particular hostility, I'll tell you candidly that yes, it IS you. And spare me the patronizing pity about how you "feel bad" about me losing "so MUCH of my - sob! - hearing." That's offensive to someone you don't know, and unwelcome. If there's a pill to be taken, perhaps you might consider the "Read the Opening Post And Stay On Topic" pill, along with a little of the "Stop The Preaching To The Handicapped" ointment.

In short, your patronizing isn't "on topic" and is, as you might note, irksome.

TW

The Weasel
01-15-2014, 23:21
Those who can help me (and others) get info about the experiences of others who use alert dogs when hiking are encouraged to post more here. Sawnie, you sound like someone with a lot you can add! Please?

TW

HikerMom58
01-15-2014, 23:41
HikerMom, I suggest that you read the Opening Post, which you have essentially ignored as you tell me how to read signs and how to hike, both of which I've done probably longer than you've been alive, often fairly well even when I didn't have your advice. And thanks for all your efforts to teach me how to be better at being handicapped, but I didn't ask for them and, as Alligator noted, those aren't the purpose of this thread. If you have some useful information about how people can use alert dogs on the trail, it's welcome. Otherwise, go post your discussion about my "judgment" (or lack of it) in another thread that is relevant to "The Weasel is a dumb SOB who hikes really stupidly," although most who have been here over the long haul know THAT thread is worn out, too. So yes, with no particular hostility, I'll tell you candidly that yes, it IS you. And spare me the patronizing pity about how you "feel bad" about me losing "so MUCH of my - sob! - hearing." That's offensive to someone you don't know, and unwelcome. If there's a pill to be taken, perhaps you might consider the "Read the Opening Post And Stay On Topic" pill, along with a little of the "Stop The Preaching To The Handicapped" ointment.

In short, your patronizing isn't "on topic" and is, as you might note, irksome.

TW

Yup, time for the ignore button. I was just trying to be nice... not patronizing in any way at all. :datz

OH. My. GOSH. You are not a nice person at all!

Slo-go'en
01-16-2014, 00:01
Weasel, thanks for the explination. I thought there would be a more positive alert signal then just watching body language. Since I mostly listen to music when I hike, I rely on detecting movement with my eyes. I guess I've spent enough time in the woods I really don't pay any attention to the sounds anymore, what little there is to hear anyway. Truely, your not missing much in that regard. Except maybe the music, at least that's what I would miss the most.

As to what Hikermom was talking about, if Chase had trouble with Albert Mt, you had best not come to NH or Maine. Albert mountain is a minor rock scramble compared to what we have here. You almost never see people hiking with dogs in these mountains, it's just too hard on them. I think getting a dog up Kathadin would be next to impossible without ropes and harness. There are some near vertical climbs with rebard ladders set into the rocks to climb up. And it's not just Kathadin, there are several climbs in NH and Maine like that too. Dragons tooth in Virgina would also be a real challenge.

Anyway, best of luck to you and your little dog too :)

The Weasel
01-16-2014, 01:34
Slo-go'en:

Since I'm very willing to assume you're actually a very nice guy, I'll take one more stab at this for you and, to the extent that you're characterizing her accurately, Hikermom:

First, don't tell the handicapped, EVER, "you're not missing much" in terms of their handicap, especially someone who you don't know, really, really, REALLY well. To test the accuracy of my statement, go to, say Detroit (my beloved home town, so I can use it for this example), and look around for any returned Afghan War vet who's an amputee. When you see her, go up and say, "Truly, you're not missing much in not being able to walk around Detroit." It might be true. But she's not going to be appreciative of your insensitivity. I'm sorry, Slo; you seem like you're probably nice. But you keep saying these things like that which really grate on people with handicaps. That kind of statement is very patronizing and very demeaning and very unappreciated by anyone with a handicap. YOU have the choice of closing your ears to sounds or hearing them. People like me DON'T. And I remember what most of them sound like, and wish I could hear all of them. If you don't like wilderness sounds, I'm sorry. I do. Don't tell me I'm wrong. So please: If you can't recognize how you're being insensitive, it would really be best if you just didn't give advice ABOUT handicaps to those who have them, or even "nice" observations ("Gosh, you look so nice without your hair since you started the chemo, Mrs. Glotznik!"). Just don't. Honest.

As for NH and Maine, I'll be there - hopefully, with Chase, should we both live that long - any damn time I please. I've hiked for about 55 years or so, and I like to think I know when I, or Chase, can or can't handle a given piece of terrain. So does anyone else with an assist dog. Those kind of comments aren't real welcome, either, no matter how helpful you mean to be, since they fall into the category of "obvious truths." It as if you were being very patronizing to a small child and saying, "When you come to the Mississippi, you will have to use a boat since it's too far for you and Chase to swim." I can figure that out for myself, and it's NOT the topic here: If I wanted that kind of information, I'd have asked for it. Unsolicited, it just grates when it isn't the kind of information sought in the Opening Post or elsewhere; I really encourage you to look at that. Yes, I know that Chase can't rappel. Yes, I know if I come to a vertical drop of 100 feet, he won't make it. Yes, I know he can't leap over the Grand Canyon. That's why I didn't ask for info like that. It doesn't sound as if you have much experience like that and it doesn't sound as if HikerMom does either, but if you do, I hope you'll share it. If not, maybe you should act interested instead of preaching about ropes and harnesses.

That's why I just asked for people who had experience (their own or others') in alert dogs on the AT or other trails to share their experiences. It doesn't sound as if you have much experience like that, and it doesn't sound as if HikerMom does either. You're being offensive without meaning to be (I'm sure), just by changing the topic to what comes across as "Listen, dumbass, keep your freakin' dog away from places your betters know he's not capable of handling." I'm actually a lot more interested in the few comments from people who actually ARE responding to what I asked for. If you can add to those, that would really be great.

And Slo? Stop if with the "your little dog too". Leaving aside that the phrase comes from a threat and a curse, it's patronizing too. In a word, "Don't call me 'boy.'" Or Chase, either."

The Weasel

The Weasel
01-16-2014, 01:42
Yup, time for the ignore button. I was just trying to be nice... not patronizing in any way at all. :datz

OH. My. GOSH. You are not a nice person at all!

Hiker Mom:

I'm a very nice person. So, probably, are you. But you're just kind of insensitive, and want to preach, and intended or not - and I'm sure you didn't intend it - your comments ARE very patronizing. Honest: If you can respond to the Opening Post, I really would love that, and anything like that from anyone else, too. But if you can't, you don't need to "ignore" me; all you need to do is go to a thread where your experience in backpacking lets you respond to the topic of the thread.

The Weasel

Different Socks
01-16-2014, 07:31
Sawnie -

Complain to the US EEOC or your state civil rights agency. They administer the ADA, and trust me: You'll get a response.

I don't use vests because they get too many "petters" and "talkers" who interrupt Chase's work.

Cherokee isn't "in the USA." It's an Indian Reservation, and US civil rights laws generally don't apply there. Unless there's a law passed by the tribal legislature. Then you can sue only in the Tribal Court. Good luck. LOL

TW

Weasel,
I believe it is better to have the vest b/c it tells me that your animal is a service dog and to ask first if the pet is "working" so I have permission to pet it. I've done that with all service dogs I've seen and many times the owner is astounded that someone actually asks before they touch their animal.
If you are on the trail, being blind can be obvious to the other hikers so they know what the dog is doing, but being deaf or HOH hearing is an invisible handicap. With no vest on, others will automatically think your pet is just like anybody's pet.

The Weasel
01-16-2014, 08:45
Good point. At airports and hotels I use a picture tag, but it's likely to come off on the trail. Chase carries his own pack (about 5#, mostly food) but I can put patches/rockers on it. Thanks.

TW

Different Socks
01-16-2014, 08:52
HikerMom, I suggest that you read the Opening Post, which you have essentially ignored as you tell me how to read signs and how to hike, both of which I've done probably longer than you've been alive, often fairly well even when I didn't have your advice. And thanks for all your efforts to teach me how to be better at being handicapped, but I didn't ask for them and, as Alligator noted, those aren't the purpose of this thread. If you have some useful information about how people can use alert dogs on the trail, it's welcome. Otherwise, go post your discussion about my "judgment" (or lack of it) in another thread that is relevant to "The Weasel is a dumb SOB who hikes really stupidly," although most who have been here over the long haul know THAT thread is worn out, too. So yes, with no particular hostility, I'll tell you candidly that yes, it IS you. And spare me the patronizing pity about how you "feel bad" about me losing "so MUCH of my - sob! - hearing." That's offensive to someone you don't know, and unwelcome. If there's a pill to be taken, perhaps you might consider the "Read the Opening Post And Stay On Topic" pill, along with a little of the "Stop The Preaching To The Handicapped" ointment.

In short, your patronizing isn't "on topic" and is, as you might note, irksome.

TW

Weasel, though your responses to some of the posts may seem to come across as rude and offensive to those certain people, I want you to know, that there are too many people on this forum that seem to think that giving an off hand response is okay even if it has nothing to do with the OP. It's happened to me too many times and I always thank those that actually answer my OP with a genuine reply, especially if it assists me.

Ender
01-16-2014, 10:04
Hey all, just a friendly reminder to play nice. Also, there will be a little thread drift, it's inevitable, so respond or don't respond, but understand that it's natural; but do try to stay on topic as much as possible and not drift completely away from whats being asked.

Try to remember that we're all on here for one shared passion, hiking in the woods, and we all come at that from different perspectives.

The Weasel
01-16-2014, 10:14
Weasel, though your responses to some of the posts may seem to come across as rude and offensive to those certain people, I want you to know, that there are too many people on this forum that seem to think that giving an off hand response is okay even if it has nothing to do with the OP. It's happened to me too many times and I always thank those that actually answer my OP with a genuine reply, especially if it assists me.

Well put.

TW

Rolls Kanardly
01-16-2014, 11:23
Yup, time for the ignore button. I was just trying to be nice... not patronizing in any way at all. :datz

OH. My. GOSH. You are not a nice person at all!

I punched my ignore button "Yesterday" because I was only trying to be nice too. Go figure, Rolls

The Weasel
01-16-2014, 11:26
Weasel, though your responses to some of the posts may seem to come across as rude and offensive to those certain people, I want you to know, that there are too many people on this forum that seem to think that giving an off hand response is okay even if it has nothing to do with the OP.

DS is very diplomatic. Perhaps it would be useful for me to explain why I'm pretty crusty - or even "rude and offensive" - in some of my responses, in the interest of a bit of "sensitivity training" for my friends (including a few who might think they aren't) here. This will be long.

A "handicap" is any physical, mental or psychological condition that limits normal personal functions. Most of us have at least one such condition, even if we don't think of it as a handicap. And many (or even most) handicaps are adapted to, such as the very tall basketball player learns when she outgrows standard door frames. Others are "invisibly" treatable, such as by medication or therapy. Some are not. Some are pretty common, such as eye conditions needing glasses. But almost all handicaps are known to those who have them, because of the limitations they cause. Few people with a handicap wouldn't give it up in a second to become "normal," since "normal" means hearing your child's first words clearly (or an owl hooting the distance), or walking up a staircase (or down a trail), or being able to breathe without an oxygen tank. I cried the other night after seeing "The Wrestler," since I knew why Mickey O'Rourke's character had to do "The Slam Jam" wrestling move, even though he'd just had a bypass operation and would likely die: He wanted to be "normal" again.

Most people with handicaps, particularly if they are somewhat significant, are very aware of not only harassment by others, but that their condition is subject to very clear, if often subtle, disapproval by the public, as well as general (if unintended) insensitivity. These actions are hurtful, even when unintentional, and even when the handicapper remains silent: It's not just calling someone "fatty," or glaring at an overweight person sitting down next to you on the airplane, but the "don't sit on that chair" comments and the "humor" of saying, "Hey, Weasel, YOU don't need to carry food on that hike, do you!" Equally, a lot of "supportive" comments come across to the handicapper as very, very patronizing: It's one thing to hold a door for a guy in a wheelchair, but then saying, "Always happy to help the less fortunate" reminds him that he is "different" from you; false empathy is also irksome. "I know how you must feel" when you don't have that limitation, or "You're not missing anything" are very common, and not something the handicapped really welcome. Lastly, there are what I call the "stupidly insensitive" comments, such as "Why does Steven Hawking have a girlfriend?" They mock a person's condition out of a lack of effort to understand that the handicapped are people like everyone else.

In short, the kind of comments that the handicapped really don't welcome are the same as those of other disfavored minorities, such as women, racial and religious groups, or people with different ethnicities: If a comment relates to a person's handicap in a way that unnecessarily distinguishes them from the "normal" population, particularly in a more personal manner than exists in a relationship, it's risky to say and best left unsaid. It's even worse if there are "dog whistles" in the comment; those are phrases or words that are "code" for hurtful concepts, even when the person uttering them isn't even aware that it's a code: These are the ones that get politicians blown out of a campaign, when they say things like "The KKK wasn't all bad" or, to religious minorities, "YOU people..." or calling a black male "boy" even if he's relatively young.

Space prevents me from listing all the ways to behave sensitively around the handicapped, in person or in written communications such as WB Forums. But I'll give a few:
1) Treat the handicapper the same as if she didn't have the handicap. Ignore it. If they need help, they'll ask for it.
2) Don't comment on the nature or the effect of a handicap unless it's requested or essential to do so, and even then, make sure your comment is non-judgmental.
3) If you want to be supportive, do so if there's a need for it; otherwise, don't gratuitously do so.
4) Don't "teach and preach" to the handicap about their condition, or how they should function in society; it's the "preachy" part that's most unwelcome, as in "It's only considerate for you to think of how others may feel about your dog/wheelchair/crutches/oxygen tank."
5) Don't blame the handicapper for being "too sensitive" or "lacking a sense of humor" and don't try to excuse yourself too quickly as "not meaning it"; we have to live with unwanted conditions and complications we can't escape, many of which aren't funny to us and which we try to forget, until a thoughtless comment rolls in.

If you think all of this was unnecessary to read, well, not much I can do about it. But yeah, I'd like to hear the wind in the trees or a tent flap after I take my hearing aid out; yeah, I'm aware that any activity I engage in needs extra research to learn obstacles - physical and bureaucratic - exist. Yeah, I don't like being a burden to others, but I don't like being reminded that I am a burden. If people think a little more about what they say, all those things will be a little easier for me. They won't give me back my hearing, or eliminate my bypass, or let me throw away my glasses. But they'll reduce some of the regret I have about all those things.

Thanks.

The Weasel

HooKooDooKu
01-16-2014, 17:40
Weasal,

This thread over here (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?100449-Service-Dogs-with-Thru-Hikers-GSMNP) is what was in the back of my mind when I kept suggesting that you call ahead to places like the GSMNP. I couldn't recall the details of that previous thread, but there was something about it that made me think you might need a permit to take a service animal in the back country.

But as you can see, SawnieRobertson made the call I was talking about. Unfortunately, the answer she received was that she needed her documentation with her (without specifying what documentation).

Given that kind of response from GSMNP, it sound like anyone wishing to hike with their service animal in the GSMNP just need to have any legitimate evidence the animal is an ADA compliant service animal. In other words, its simply not anything that they have had to address frequently enough to publish any official rules or procedures regarding ADA compliance.

Of course the truth is that you likely have less than a 20% chance of even seeing a ranger in the back country. I can tell you that in my 20 years of camping in the GSMNP, I've never once been asked to produce a permit (though I have heard of a few others that have).

SawnieRobertson
01-16-2014, 19:23
Okay, Sawnie checking in again. The "documentation" is, for instance, my physician's prescription saying that my service dog is a necessary part of my medical plan. Being neither deaf nor blind nor otherwise physically disabled (other than old, fat, arthritic, etc.), my need for a service dog perplexes some people. As is said in literature about service dogs, not all injuries are visible. So, yes, one would tell GSMNP that a service dog is on the AT going through the park. That way, in the off chance that one would meet a ranger (particularly an over-eager one), things would just go smoothly with the ranger filled with pride that she/he was so knowledgeable that she/he acted appropriately, even ignored the dog's presence, the sign of a really well-trained ranger/clerk/secretary/hairdresser.

That is, unless the dog is out of control, acting badly, and the owner cannot get the dog to behave properly, the dog has the same right to be present as its human handler. So, if Fleur and I are asleep in a shelter, and you come along wet, miserable, bedraggled, shivering, hungry in the middle of a night with 10* windchill, you have absolutely no right to insist that we move out to our tent. OTOH, if either Fleur or I violently attack you, you have every right to demand that we pack up and leave. The point is that she and I or any person and her/his service dog are regarded as a team, as one person.

Some nit pickers have objected, saying that our service dogs give comfort. That is true, but their main task (the one that gets them on the other end of the leash) is to take care of the malady that they are there to address. You did not ask, and you have no right to ask, but Fleur alerts me to the approach of my condition, and, if I'm already "there." she helps me snap out of it.

I would also prefer that you not talk to or pet her when she is working. Her work requires that she be fully aware of me and how I am feeling at all times. It's okay for you to talk to me about her though. She loves to eavesdrop, and it does not seem to bother her concentration on her doing her job.

Finally, I have had to train her myself. She has four litter mates who became Pilot Dogs for the Blind. They have each gone through the expensive, year-long training to perform their tasks. I do work with and under a certified trainer. There are little differences between what she is used to teaching and our needs, however. For instance, she said that Fleur should be trained to be at my left side within two feet. I had to point out that much of the trail is barely one-foot wide and that to have Fleur at my side would potentially mean that one of us needed to roll down an embankment. Fleur needs to be wherever is best at any one moment, side, front, back. And that is my answer to the woman who advised in the notorious newspaper article that one could quickly tell which are fake service dogs by watching them go through a door. It is like having an urban EMT trainer impose what works in the city on a wilderness EMT. Both get the same job done but most likely with a different protocol.

I am very grateful that this thread has explored this topic as well as it has. There may be a plethora of service dogs walking off the war before long.

The Weasel
01-16-2014, 19:51
I won't copy Sawnie's excellent post other than to emphasize that I am unaware of anyone - ANYONE - who is entitled to demand AND see "the documentation." Let me emphasize that there is no recognized uniform "documentation" for service dogs, nor are there any national standards by any licensing or professional association, nor is there any kind of document which must be presented at any time. Some states - North Carolina is one - have a registration function, but it is not required for a service dog to be recognized. If a person in authority (Ranger, property owner, etc) has any question about a dog's presence, she/he may (1) ask if the dog is a service animal and (2) what the handicap is. That is the extent of the inquiry. "Shelter mates" or "interested people" have no right to ask either question, although as a courtesy I'll at least answer (1) and sometimes (2). If you disagree with that, I suggest you contact your Congressman/woman and ask for a repeal of the ADA and the Rehabilitation Act.

I also hope people understand Sawnie's very correct comments about not asking to pet service dogs or otherwise interfere with their job. Trust me; all service animals get all the affection they could want, and are happily spoiled. But they are "on duty" 24/7, and when you interfere, you are making their job (and my life) harder.

Now, if there is any one who can share experiences with or around a service dog on the trail. PLEASE share those experiences. Among others, that means YOU Sawnie! :)

The Weasel

The Weasel
01-16-2014, 19:57
HooKooDooKu:

I think you totally misunderstand Sawnie's post. There is NO need to have "documentation" with you; self-reporting is sufficient. Sometimes it is prudent to recognize that there are people who just sort of refuse to take the previous sentence at face value - it is a precisely accurate statement of the law - and realize that instead of an argument with stupid people (I'm not referring to anyone in particular) who won't believe what I just said, it's easier to just get a letter out. Frankly, that pisses me off pretty big time, because it's an illegal invasion of my personal information, no different than an illegal warrantless search. I tolerate it, but not often, because I'm a litigation lawyer and we are (as you may have noticed) feisty as a profession. Sawnie is nicer than me and less confrontational; had it been ME at that honkin' La Quinta, they would have needed to call the cops who, I am dead certain, would have supported me.

TW

The Weasel
01-16-2014, 20:09
Weasal,

This thread over here (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?100449-Service-Dogs-with-Thru-Hikers-GSMNP) .......

Just for reference to my many new friends here, I'm not "Weasal" or even "Weasel" (which is how that little varmin's name is correctly spelled). I'm - thanks to Joe Tallant in 1999, THE Weasel. The "The" is the first part of my trail name, and just as significant as "Weasel" is, unless you (egad!) prefer to call me "Mr. Weasel" to be very formal. It's a long story and perhaps not all that interesting, and its buried somewhere on WB 10 years or so back. But I'm grateful to Joe for baptising me with it, so I stay true to it.

The Weasel

rickb
01-16-2014, 21:04
I won't copy Sawnie's excellent post other than to emphasize that I am unaware of anyone - ANYONE - who is entitled to demand AND see "the documentation."l

http://www.nps.gov/policy/serviceanimals.pdf

The Weasel
01-16-2014, 21:18
Thank you, Rickb.

TW

Hipcheck
01-17-2014, 04:07
I haven't read all the posts because some slight drama turned up... but I wanted to say the post about the 'dog training you' was spot on.

My lab/shep usually stayed between me and the first person(lucky enough to meet great friends who stayed together).. he always let us know when we were coming up on people hiking south. At first, I would have him "get behind" me and when we met the SoBo hikers, we'd step to the side and he would sit. Before long, we were hiking along and he'd run behind me on his own, and I would think "what the heck?" then some 2-3 minutes later, we'd meet people hiking the other way. When I FINALLY caught on(after like 4 times).... It was awesome. Like seeing into the future!

He did the same thing at road crossings after a while.. In the beginning I showed him what I wanted in these situations, but before Virginia he had us trained to know what was coming next.

I also saw a lot more wildlife than I would have without him, by knowing his tells. It's funny, people have this idea that you see less wildlife because you have a dog with you. Wrong.

Best of luck to you two!


(PS don't worry about anyone doubting your dog's ability. My purist pup hiked every foot of the AT he was allowed on. He probably put in 5,000 miles and didn't need help, not even down Moosilauke in the rain, or in the notch. Oh, and he was out there because he wanted to be! I thought he was going to abandon me and do a yo-yo on his own. He hates life off the trail!)

max patch
01-17-2014, 10:09
My purist pup hiked every foot of the AT he was allowed on. He probably put in 5,000 miles and didn't need help, not even down Moosilauke in the rain, or in the notch.

Thanks for answering my question. I'd say if a dog can go down Moosilauke in the rain they can handle anything the AT is gonna throw at em.

Marta
01-17-2014, 10:50
Good to see you back on Whiteblaze, TW!

I'm a relatively anti-dog hiker, but have no problem with service dogs. Not only are they are legally allowed (which removes my objection to the casual rule-breaking many dog owners engage in), but they are necessarily close by their humans and very unlikely to indulge in the behaviors that make many other dogs unwelcome in the backcountry--chasing wildlife, menacing other humans, etc.

Best wishes on your upcoming hikes!

SawnieRobertson
01-17-2014, 11:06
And it is always good to hear from The 5-Leaf Clover. I wish I could believe that you miss NC enough to return. And, yes, I too do not like to encounter dogs off leash on the trail. They are scary to wildlife--and me. Most are running towards you (me), exuberantly barking for joy, but one does not know.

Marta
01-17-2014, 11:19
Hi, Kinnikinick! Glad to hear you and Fleur are doing well. I have no plans to return to NC. Time for me to explore the West.

The Weasel
01-17-2014, 11:21
Good to see you back on Whiteblaze, TW!

I'm a relatively anti-dog hiker, but have no problem with service dogs. Not only are they are legally allowed (which removes my objection to the casual rule-breaking many dog owners engage in), but they are necessarily close by their humans and very unlikely to indulge in the behaviors that make many other dogs unwelcome in the backcountry--chasing wildlife, menacing other humans, etc.


Best wishes on your upcoming hikes!
Thanks, Marta. You're one of those who probably remembers my anti-dog rants, like you feel. But Chase (and all service dogs I know who are trained) isn't a "dog" but a "worker." Smile. You'd like him. Enjoy yourself, too!

TW

The Weasel
01-17-2014, 11:24
Sawnie - did you "bury or carry" dog waste?

TW

max patch
01-17-2014, 11:55
A couple questions for The Weasel:

1. I have read that members of the service dog community are upset that people are increasingly calling their pets "service dogs" to get around restrictions, such as access to restaurants and, yes, access to hiking trails that prohibit dogs. Members of the community are concerned that as the number of people cheat increase, people with legitimate service dogs will be denied access. With this in mind, would the requirement of carrying documentation actually be of benefit to the community?

2. Inasmuch as the GSMNP requires that everyone stay in a shelter on the AT, it would make sense to me that service dogs also require a permit of their own for shelter space. When answering, please assume that this reservation would be at no cost for the service dag.

The Weasel
01-17-2014, 12:24
Good questions, Max:

1) I don't speak for the "service dog community" and only know a few others. But I'm pretty involved in Deaf/HOH things, so I'm at least sensitized to such issues. With that caveat, I'll comment.

2) Let me answer a question with a question: How willing are you to see another whole bureaucracy - almost certainly Federal - created to create standards, develop means of licensing/certification (that's the "documentation"), rules/regulations on usage, and so on? What budget offset would you propose to permit the significant regulatory cost for this after the necessary Congressional authorization for it, which will involve at least a few years of intense lobbying by interest groups/stakeholders?

3) Your question is a little bit suspect (and I don't mean you, but generally). In 20 years of dealing with handicapped and deaf/HOH issues, I've never heard anyone involved in using service dogs concerned about what you call "cheating." Not once. I have, however, heard a LOT of people without the kind of disabilities that service dogs help with express THEIR concern about so-called "cheating." I frankly suspect that a lot of that is out of some kind of feeling that people with disabilities get "special rights" (there is a LOT of that feeling expressed in society) by things that facilitate access by the handicapped.

4) I think that requirements for "documentation" are a lot like "pic)ture ID for voters", i.e. a "solution" to an ostensible problem ("voter fraud") that doesn't exist (other than urban legend, there is at most miniscule evidence of fraud that pictures would prevent), as a way to preven the disabled from greater use of service animals by those who don't want them around. Such requirements would be damaging to the use of service animals as a way of inhibiting people from getting them.

5) As for GSMNP and like places, a service dog is no different, in the eyes of the law, than any other external device that makes access possible for the handicapped. Since such things as wheelchairs, oxygen tanks, crutches/canes (walking poles?) do not require an additional permit, neither should a service animal. Most service animals, particularly dogs (when tend to be the largest of service animals) are of modest size, and use little space more than their companion, since most are trained to sleep at their companion's feet. This is particularly true since requiring a service dog to have a permit would mean that their companion would have to obtain TWO permits. At times when only ONE permit remained for a shelter night, this would disqualify the disabled person but not an abled person. THAT would violate the Rehabilitation Act and, I submit, morality. To make it worse, I'm not sure that a rule could even be implemented fairly: Would a full space be required regardless of the service animal's size? A Chihuahua? It is quickly seen that such a "rule" would really be intended to deny (intentionally or as applied) access to shelters to the handicapped.

6) I'll ask this question: Why the heck do people care? You all seem SO convinced either that there is widespread "cheating" - with no evidence that there is, other than maybe nameless "they said" or "I heard" evidence, or that it is somehow wrong for somebody who can't hear or see or has other disabilities to use a dog in places where the abled don't want them. Try this on for size: A lot of vets are using service dogs for PTSD, mobility, and other disabilities. I'm a lot more concerned for some honkin' Soldier who, after 20 years in-service, gets mocked and booted from a restaurant even when he DOES have certification. http://thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/160351/war_veteran_kicked_out_of?next=21 The same thing happened to a Marine near me in Beaufort, NC last month. When people start worrying about THAT more than whether we should screw over someone with a service dog at a shelter, then we'll do better. And yes, it happens along the trail: Read about Sawnie at that friggin' La Quinto she was at for a Zero Day.

Hope this helps. Thanks!

TW

max patch
01-17-2014, 12:39
There are plenty articles out there about healthy people who cheat and call their pet a service animal. Here's just a couple.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/fake-service-dogs-growing-problem-8C11366537

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/Frustrated-by-Fake-Service-Dogs-208233211.html

The Weasel
01-17-2014, 12:54
Ah, bullpuckey.

The aquarium lady is an expert at determining - just from looking at someone! - that the dog isn't a service animal. What? You're only disabled if you got a tattoo or something on your forehead? Sorry, folks. That's just crap. Take a look at me or, probably, Sawnie, when we're walking our dogs. You'll see a man or a woman, you'll see a dog, and you won't have any idea that we're HOH or deaf.

Does it happen? Sure. Lots? No. It's just another "welfare queen" story, and there aren't many of them, either.

TW

Alligator
01-17-2014, 14:00
A couple questions for The Weasel:
...

2. Inasmuch as the GSMNP requires that everyone stay in a shelter on the AT, it would make sense to me that service dogs also require a permit of their own for shelter space. When answering, please assume that this reservation would be at no cost for the service dag.This would be illegal under the Architectural Barrier Act. You cannot require a person with a disability to comply with a requirement that does not apply to a person without one*. (This applies to the architectural issues.)

*without a pet.

max patch
01-17-2014, 14:10
This would be illegal under the Architectural Barrier Act. You cannot require a person with a disability to comply with a requirement that does not a person without one.

You and TW know a whole lot more about this than I do, but if a shelter holds 8 people (and putting aside TWs comment that many service animals are small for the sake of argument) then those 8 spaces would be reserved by 7 people and 1 service animal. This would not require the person with the disability to have 2 reservations, it would require the person and the animal to have one each. Still illegal? (I have seen seeing eye dogs that would not appear to be able to fit with their owner in one space hence my question.)

The Weasel
01-17-2014, 14:21
You and TW know a whole lot more about this than I do, but if a shelter holds 8 people (and putting aside TWs comment that many service animals are small for the sake of argument) then those 8 spaces would be reserved by 7 people and 1 service animal. This would not require the person with the disability to have 2 reservations, it would require the person and the animal to have one each. Still illegal? (I have seen seeing eye dogs that would not appear to be able to fit with their owner in one space hence my question.)

Why do you assume that one of us is going to demand a full space for our dog? GSMNP shelters arent any different than most other shelters, and they hold up to a dozen or more in bad weather. You make it work whether it's 8 or 18. And why do you care? It's required. 1 hiker, 1 space. Whether it's a fat guy like me or a skinny guy (like I hope you are), 1 space. Big pack, little pack. 1 space. If you disagree, I strongly encourage you to waste a "forever stamp" and write your congresswoman/man, or, to save money, make a call to their local office, and insist they amend the ADA and the Rehab Act. Not. Gonna. Happen.

I'd love it if you'd respond to my questions, too.

TW

Alligator
01-17-2014, 14:25
The permits are issued to people. The dog is not a person nor a pet even. You can't require the owner to have for an architectural issue. Now, the AB was passed in 1968 and many of the shelters renovated. If there is not enough space to accommodate a person with a disability they would probably need to fix it. The NPS should have taken the law into account at renovation. I'm not suggesting they haven't. They have camping shelter rules but specific sleeping space requirements I don't know. Like do they have to offer a larger space. What magic formula is used for deciding shelter capacity in the first place I don't know. If it was a problem they could just reduce it to 7.

The Weasel
01-17-2014, 14:25
I will note, however, as to GSMNP, "reasonable accommodation" for the handicapped can allow for alternatives that are "as good" as a shelter. That MIGHT include, in some cases, permission to camp by a shelter for a disabled person and their dog/wheelchair/oxy/prostheses. But even then, since shelters provide more protection from weather, and even to have fires inside, as I recall, that might not be sufficient.

TW

Alligator
01-17-2014, 14:31
I am specifically addressing this in regard service animals just to note, this is part of an ABA amendment.

HooKooDooKu
01-17-2014, 15:09
This would be illegal under the Architectural Barrier Act. You cannot require a person with a disability to comply with a requirement that does not apply to a person without one. (This applies to the architectural issues.)
Max Patch is making a valid point.

Shelters in the GSMNP have a fixed number of sleeping spots. The GSMNP utilizes permits to track the number of people staying at shelters.

Max Patch doesn't seem to be suggesting anything that would be illegal, because he's not suggesting the disabled person has to comply with something a non-disabled person has to (because everyone has to have a permit). He is simply pointing out that the park service be informed that an additional space in the shelter is going to be utilized by the presence of the service animal. Now he did use the word "permit", but that's just because the permit system is how the GSMNP tracks the number of people staying at shelters (because he even suggested such a 'permit' would be at no cost).

In other words, Max Patch is just saying that you need to let the park service know you're going to be occupying two spots, not just one. That way, they can adjust the reservation system to make sure they don't issue a permit to someone that would need the animals spot.

Of course the question becomes mute if the service animal is sleeping somewhere other than one of the limited spots.
An yes, I know there are 'different' rules for thru-hikers. But the point is still valid because the way the park service deals with thru-hikers is to allocate 3 (I think) spots (and allows any thru-hikers above 3 to tent around the shelter is the shelter is otherwise full). So the point about telling the park service that an extra spot is required is a little more important when obtaining a general permit rather than a thru permit.

max patch
01-17-2014, 15:09
I'd love it if you'd respond to my questions, too.



I hope I have not come across as argumentative as that is not my intent. I am trying to understand something of which I have little knowledge about.

Some of my points which you have taken exception to seemed to me to be beneficial to the service animal community. Re the GSMNP shelters, a permit for the hiker and a permit for the dog would ensure that there is adequate space for the dog. An 8 person shelter would have 7 people and 1 dog. 8 spaces, 8 permits. There would be no question about the dog being allowed in the shelter. Assume its a rainy day. No one wants to sleep next to a wet dog in a shelter. (I believe you even made that argument in earlier times). With a permit, the dog would have his own space, and Ricky Redneck couldn't say a word about it in protest. Re the documentation requirement. I don't know how many people cheat to get their pet into a store. I've read articles that claim this is a problem. Did you read about the pet that peed on the expensive rug? If documentation was required that dog would not have gotten into the store. And if you ever attempt to enter that same store with your service dog your job has just gotten harder because of what happened earlier.

I'm trying to understand the law not change it so I have no reason to contact my congressman. Except perhaps to throw support for picture ID when voting which is a helluva good idea.

I certainly do not want to create a "documentation bureaucracy." IF cheating is a problem (you say it isn't, others say it is) then something along the lines of getting the handicapped parking cards would suffice.

The Weasel
01-17-2014, 15:23
Max:

Your idea of requiring the handicapped to get 2 spaces is just bad, and will prevent the handicapped with dogs from accessing the shelters (other than thru hikers, of course, who are guaranteed shelter space - or tent space if the shelter is full - when transiting the Park), since if there's only one space left and a handicapper with a dog wants it, you'd deny her/him the single space. As for wet dogs, yeah, it's not fun. But neither is anyone else, and it's a whole lot better than denying the handicapped access. Sorry. As for parking cards? Don't make me laugh. It's proven - not just anecdotally - that up to 50% of the people with them aren't handicapped. Sorry. You want to come up with more ways to make it harder for the handicapped to use something that you can access easily; there's not much you need to understand other than that federal and state laws say those ways are illegal.

And that's why this is all an unnecessary discussion, even for those who think they can come up with reasons why it's a bad idea: It's the law. I think a 55 mph speed limit is stupid and unworkable and a lot of other things, but it's the law. Like it or lump it. End of discussion; nothing to understand other than "violate the ADA and a hungry lawyer will sue your butt, win, and be granted attorneys' fees against you as well."

TW



TW

The Weasel
01-17-2014, 15:27
Max Patch is making a valid point.

Shelters in the GSMNP have a fixed number of sleeping spots. The GSMNP utilizes permits to track the number of people staying at shelters.

Max Patch doesn't seem to be suggesting anything that would be illegal, because he's not suggesting the disabled person has to comply with something a non-disabled person has to (because everyone has to have a permit). He is simply pointing out that the park service be informed that an additional space in the shelter is going to be utilized by the presence of the service animal. Now he did use the word "permit", but that's just because the permit system is how the GSMNP tracks the number of people staying at shelters (because he even suggested such a 'permit' would be at no cost).

In other words, Max Patch is just saying that you need to let the park service know you're going to be occupying two spots, not just one. That way, they can adjust the reservation system to make sure they don't issue a permit to someone that would need the animals spot.

Of course the question becomes mute if the service animal is sleeping somewhere other than one of the limited spots.
An yes, I know there are 'different' rules for thru-hikers. But the point is still valid because the way the park service deals with thru-hikers is to allocate 3 (I think) spots (and allows any thru-hikers above 3 to tent around the shelter is the shelter is otherwise full). So the point about telling the park service that an extra spot is required is a little more important when obtaining a general permit rather than a thru permit.

As Alligator said, imposing a greater burden on the handicapped than on the general public flunks the test. It's illegal. Max is saying, "Let's come up with a rule that is illegal." Sorry. Won't work. And the United States Attorney for the Central District of Virginia ain't gonna defend that one; she or he will just throw in the towel. If it got that far. Which it wouldn't. Sorry that you want to discriminate against the handicapped, which is what you're proposing. But that's illegal too.

TW

Alligator
01-17-2014, 15:46
HooKooDooKu, I don't if the answer I'm going to propose will answer the intent of the law but I will give it a try. The law says you cannot require it. Why? Requiring it forces the person with the disability to be treated differently and in a more negative fashion. That portion of the law is part of a rule about surcharges. You can't surcharge the accommodation due to the service animal if you don't place the surcharge on a person without a pet. I did not state this as clearly as I should have earlier I corrected it. I think predominantly about charging extra $, and then nuanced to include avoiding other rules. This is just one easy instance where it easily fixes. Change it, and you create additional burdens on a person with a disability because of the disability. Change disability to old or Asian or woman and you start to see the civil rights aspect. The intent of a specific law can be tricky though, I don't if my thoughts on it are in the ballpark or not.

rickb
01-17-2014, 16:05
parking cards? Don't make me laugh. It's proven - not just anecdotally - that up to 50% of the people with them aren't handicapped.
TW

Yup, people learn to game the system. Wasn't that part of what M. Patch was asking about?

The reality of things now is that a Businessman would be nuts to ever question anyone's assertion that an animal is a Service Animal. For that matter so would most public safety officers. Doesn't matter the circumstances .

As for a wet service dog in the main area of a crowded shelter, my guess is that would be as legal as me field stripping a Colt 1911 at the picnic table out front - and about as welcome. Just because we have rights -- granted by the constitution or by statue-- does not mean we need to exercise them all the time. Even if we can.

elmotoots
01-17-2014, 17:20
I have a disability, but do not need an Assist Dog.

If I needed an assist Dog and was going to hike with it, one of my concerns would be if I ran into some one who is dealing with Cynophobia. (spelling?)

Which is I believe the name given for people who suffer from the very real Anxiety Disorder fear of dogs.

I do not suffer from it, but have two grandkids who I hope are recovering from it. Both of them attacked by the same dog at once.

Their fear of dogs is crippling them. They try to act tough about it, but cannot hide the fear.

Big dog, little dog, even their own pet, scares them. One of them has even developed a nervous head jerk the experts are thinking is related to the attack. He has had brain scans and they find no physical problems.

Until this happened to them, I never gave this problem much thought.

I would watch people very closely and if I noticed someone showing signs of the disorder, I would try to stay far away from them. I might even change my plans and find another place to stay.

It is a very real disability for some and should be considered, not overlooked by us dog lovers.

max patch
01-17-2014, 17:30
So Hiker A has a legal right to a service dog. And Hiker B has a legal right to avoid dogs. And they both show up at the same shelter in the GSMNP.

My head is spinning.

rickb
01-17-2014, 17:55
So Hiker A has a legal right to a service dog. And Hiker B has a legal right to avoid dogs. And they both show up at the same shelter in the GSMNP.My head is spinning.Max,Hiker B does not have a legal right to avoid dogs. At least not on the situation you cite.Perhaps in a swimming pool or hot tub.

max patch
01-17-2014, 18:02
Max,Hiker B does not have a legal right to avoid dogs. At least not on the situation you cite.Perhaps in a swimming pool or hot tub.

Thanks. I was really getting dizzy.

HooKooDooKu
01-17-2014, 19:02
Max:
Your idea of requiring the handicapped to get 2 spaces is just bad, and will prevent the handicapped with dogs from accessing the shelters ... if there's only one space left and a handicapper with a dog wants it...
Let's follow this to it's logical conclusion...

Let's say that there is a shelter with a capacity of 12 people, and 11 spaces are already full. You get a permit for the 12th spot. You arrive at the shelter, and the 11 other permit holders are already there. What are you going to do?

1. Try to force one of the other guests out of the shelter to make room for your dog?
Well that's going to go over like a lead balloon.

2. The 12 people and the dog simply squeeze together a little tighter?
The "bunks" consist of a monolithic platforms, with each of the 12 spots separated by a 1x2s. So it's impossible to adjust the amount of room allocated for each permit holder.

3. The dog sleeps on the floor in front of the bunks?
If the dog isn't going to occupy one of the 12 spots, then we don't need a discussion about getting the dog a permit.

Alligator
01-17-2014, 23:54
Let's follow this to it's logical conclusion...

Let's say that there is a shelter with a capacity of 12 people, and 11 spaces are already full. You get a permit for the 12th spot. You arrive at the shelter, and the 11 other permit holders are already there. What are you going to do?

1. Try to force one of the other guests out of the shelter to make room for your dog?
Well that's going to go over like a lead balloon.

2. The 12 people and the dog simply squeeze together a little tighter?
The "bunks" consist of a monolithic platforms, with each of the 12 spots separated by a 1x2s. So it's impossible to adjust the amount of room allocated for each permit holder.

3. The dog sleeps on the floor in front of the bunks?
If the dog isn't going to occupy one of the 12 spots, then we don't need a discussion about getting the dog a permit.It doesn't have to follow through this way. The way Max asked the question, was that he was requiring another permit for the dog from the owner. They could place a question on the permit that asks, "Are you traveling with a service dog, yes or no." Then everybody has to answer. The central database could then allocate the extra space. In order to avoid not being able to allocate the last space to a person with a disability, the second to last space gets a caveat. You are reserving an accessible space. If a person with a disability reserves the last space, you will required to either forfeit your reservation or camp outside the shelter. Notify by email up 24 hours before. The second to last person would be getting a spot that technically should not be there but it is a "fluid" reservation. This is done similarly on recreation.gov for accessible campsites. Or you could make the third thruhiker responsible to move but it would probably be best to have the known permit holder stipulated to move to avoid problems.

Alternatively, just reduce the number of shelter spaces by one permanently as I mentioned earlier.

Hill Ape
01-18-2014, 02:12
group hug folks, work it out

mjaynes288
02-17-2014, 02:20
I can say without a doubt that the service dog community is fed up with fakers. They make access harder for actual teams. They flash meaningless official looking IDs they bought online making people think all teams should show them IDs. Their dogs do not behave. A store is much more likely to object to a service dog after a faker let their dog sniff and lick merchandise or left a pile of poo on the floor. Here is an article on fake IDs at the bottom is a list of links on the faker problem http://servicedogcentral.org/content/fake-service-dog-credentials

Most of the service dog community also has no problem with service dog permits for access to back country in national parks. National parks are not covered under the ADA. The memo previously posted brings the Department of the Interior definition of a service dog into line with the DOJ definition (service dogs for disabilities other than blindness and deafness). It had no other effect on DOI policy. It comes down to what the park thinks is a reasonable accommodation. Some parks feel it is reasonable service dog partners notify them they will be in the back country so park rangers do not have to hike miles to find out if the dog is a service dog. Here is a well written article on the issue: http://servicedogcentral.org/content/national-parks

Alligator
02-17-2014, 11:20
I did get a response back from the AG's office.
Pets are not allowed in Baxter State Park. Service animals are allowed. However, dogs are unable to climb Katahdin without assistance so people do not usually bring even service dogs. Please feel free to contact the Park directly to discuss your specific situation, 207-723-5140, 64 Balsam Drive, Millinocket, Maine 04462. Thank you,




Janet T. Mills
Attorney General





Rosemarie Smith


Executive Secretary to the Attorney General


Office of the Attorney General


6 State House Station


Augusta, ME 04333I did not climb Katahdin with an eye on the trail for tricky dog passage points. There are two spots that having a second human's help is very helpful, at least one if not both had an iron rung. The boulder climb at the base of the Tableland is also challenging.

Marta
02-17-2014, 22:51
I can say without a doubt that the service dog community is fed up with fakers. They make access harder for actual teams. They flash meaningless official looking IDs they bought online making people think all teams should show them IDs. Their dogs do not behave. A store is much more likely to object to a service dog after a faker let their dog sniff and lick merchandise or left a pile of poo on the floor. Here is an article on fake IDs at the bottom is a list of links on the faker problem http://servicedogcentral.org/content/fake-service-dog-credentials

Most of the service dog community also has no problem with service dog permits for access to back country in national parks. National parks are not covered under the ADA. The memo previously posted brings the Department of the Interior definition of a service dog into line with the DOJ definition (service dogs for disabilities other than blindness and deafness). It had no other effect on DOI policy. It comes down to what the park thinks is a reasonable accommodation. Some parks feel it is reasonable service dog partners notify them they will be in the back country so park rangers do not have to hike miles to find out if the dog is a service dog. Here is a well written article on the issue: http://servicedogcentral.org/content/national-parks

On Friday I was snowshoeing in Glacier NP in an area where pets are prohibited. A young couple on backcountry skis had a dog with them. The dog was wearing a pack that said "Service Animal" on it. The dog was not leashed and was obviously not working--he was running after birds, came up to me and sniffed me a couple of times, and so on.

Dirty Nails
02-18-2014, 02:30
Weasel, if you have a legitimate disability you know it. If you have a legitimate, trained service dog, you know that too. You then also know the rights and limitations of using your service dog.
My service dog accompanied me through Shenandoah, Bear Mtn zoo, and Baxter as well.

Many folks seem to do all but answer your original question, so I'll try. (I didn't have the stomach to read all the posts)
In my experience there are some places where it's tough on the dog. You will have to help lift the dog up and down some ledges and a few ladders. The first one that comes to mind is Dragon's Tooth, which I believe you will encounter. I found a dog up there either lost or abandoned. It was too rugged for me to try to bring him down. You must consider how heavy your dog is to lift, and use a pack with sturdy harness.
Also, as with any training, you must ensure the dog is reliable in all environments, especially the woods. There are so many distractions in the woods, that maintaining "work mode" all day (very long days) is extremely challenging and taxing for the service dog. My dog had good days and some not so good days. We just did sections, and went slow. I found 1-2 weeks was more than my dog enjoyed.
This is in addition to all the regular concerns of hiking w/dog. You can read about all those concerns on this forum until you puke.
Good luck!

redzombie
03-11-2014, 13:06
Weasel, if you have a legitimate disability you know it. If you have a legitimate, trained service dog, you know that too. You then also know the rights and limitations of using your service dog.
My service dog accompanied me through Shenandoah, Bear Mtn zoo, and Baxter as well.

Many folks seem to do all but answer your original question, so I'll try. (I didn't have the stomach to read all the posts)
In my experience there are some places where it's tough on the dog. You will have to help lift the dog up and down some ledges and a few ladders. The first one that comes to mind is Dragon's Tooth, which I believe you will encounter. I found a dog up there either lost or abandoned. It was too rugged for me to try to bring him down. You must consider how heavy your dog is to lift, and use a pack with sturdy harness.
Also, as with any training, you must ensure the dog is reliable in all environments, especially the woods. There are so many distractions in the woods, that maintaining "work mode" all day (very long days) is extremely challenging and taxing for the service dog. My dog had good days and some not so good days. We just did sections, and went slow. I found 1-2 weeks was more than my dog enjoyed.
This is in addition to all the regular concerns of hiking w/dog. You can read about all those concerns on this forum until you puke.
Good luck!


Hello everyone! I am hiking SOBO 2014 with my service dog, whom is a Great Dane. Weasel, you have to be strong. We both know ignorance is contagious, and people are going to believe what they want. Like it or not Weasel you are part of the community, you are an ambassador for the community with service dogs, and then again so am I. Those who are brave enough will ask, and will be willing to learn from me and you, and others. Weasel what people are forgetting is you rely on your dog for your safety as I, and you will always make the right choice as your own safety depends on it as well as the dog. This will be my first hike on the AT, but being a disable forest firefighter I do have a wee bit of experience hiking up mountains and living in the woods for nine months at a time lol.
Dirty Nails, maybe you can elaborate on some of the challenges and logistics you dealt with. Like nutrition for example. On the other fourm, not much info. I am planning of feeding Native Dog food lvl 4, with a few Turbo Pup bars a day, and then of course scrapes of food from me. Also how did your dog fair through ME? Mahoosuc notch?

SawnieRobertson
03-11-2014, 13:52
Fleur and I are all ears. I carry a copy of my prescription for her with me at all times. Actually, it is written on a prescription pad sheet by my physician. It has been getting a little worn on the edges, I laminated copies and will keep the original with the deed to my home. Isn't that pathetic! She has completely turned my life around now that she is a working service dog. As a pet (her former life), she was just enjoyable having near. She is an extension of my being. She does weigh over 50 pounds though. I cannot pick her up without a lot of help from her. How anyone can pick up a wonderful Great Dane is a mystery. I hope to come across you two out there when you come through SW Virginia. Wow!

HooKooDooKu
05-07-2014, 13:54
New NPS rules for service animals: http://www.nps.gov/news/release.htm?id=1582

National Park Service Press Release



For Immediate Release:
http://home.nps.gov/applications/release/images/shim.gif
April 21, 2014


Contact(s):
Jeffrey Olson, 202-208-6843






National Park Service Updates Rule about Service Animals

Public comment sought through June 17 on www.regulations.gov (http://www.regulations.gov/)
WASHINGTON – The National Park Service (NPS) invites public comment on a proposed rule to revise regulations governing service animals in national parks.
Last amended in 1983, federal statutes governing accessibility for persons with disabilities, as well as the use of service animals, have changed significantly.
Although federal agencies are not governed by the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA), the NPS policy is to align its regulations with the ADA and make NPS facilities, programs, and services accessible to and usable by as many people as possible.
The proposed rule would define a service animal as a dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. The work or tasks a service animal is trained to perform must be directly related to the person’s disability. Other species of animals would not be considered service animals, but park superintendents would have the authority to allow the use of miniature horses by individuals with disabilities when appropriate, depending on the type, size, and weight of the horse.
The proposed rule would differentiate service animals from pets, domestic animals, feral animals, livestock, and pack animals and would describe the circumstances under which service animals would be allowed in a park area.
Due to the serious potential for disease transmission between domestic animals and wildlife, park superintendents could require proof of vaccination against diseases transmissible to wildlife from service animals.
The proposed rule, 36 Code of Federal Regulations § 2.15, is available for review presently. The National Park Service will accept public comment on the rule through June 17, 2014, through the Federal Rulemaking Portal at: http://www.regulations.gov (http://www.regulations.gov/).

bemental
01-04-2015, 00:07
The orange lead is not an issue. It, like a vest, merely helps others to understand that this is a service dog, and, for the knowledgeable, it reduces the need for the innocent inquiry so many bumble through: Pardon me, but what is your dog a service dog for? As for two "moments" that occurred in the past six months following very abusive article in a North Carolina newspaper, I finally whipped out the physician's prescription to the admissions attendant at the Cherokee Heritage Museum in Cherokee, North Carolina. He then allowed us to enter but with a grumble. The other was at the LaQuinta Inn at Wytheville, Virginia. Fleur and I went to the breakfast area for my breakfast. Before I even was seated, a desk clerk came to me in front of the room full of other guests and ordered us out of there because she is a dog. I protested that she is a service dog. He persisted. The room was filled with people calling out to him to stop, that they were not disturbed by the dog's presence. I lifted my chin and walked out, hungry and in serious need of my morning coffee. In both cases I handed the person one of the cards that I carry advising them of Fleur's right to accompany the person on the other end of the leash. I did nothing more to the Cherokee, but I did write to the manager of the LaQuinta. After informing me that he would hold a meeting with his attorneys, the owners, etc., etc., he never responded further. Why was I so wimpy? Because I was dealing with dumb ignorants and because I was with my daughter and her husband from New Mexico on a short weekend together. We were having a delightful time. I could wait to strike another day, which I just did in passing along my experiences to The Weasel.

SR,

Thanks for sharing those stories. Personally, I don't have the (PTSD) patience for ballsy management like that most days, so Mozzie and I usually tell them to call the police to sort it out or offer to do it ourselves :P