Dangerous Stoves?

[Don H]

I'm currently in a discussion on a Boy Scout form about the use of homemade soda can stoves which are currently banned by BSA. The head of the Safety Committee for BSA claims to have interviewed "experienced thru-hikers" who have stated that these stoves have serious safety issues.

Has anyone had a serious safety issues with these stoves?

Has anyone had a serious safety issue with another type of stove such as a canister or liquid fueled stove?

Thanks for the input.

[MDSection12]

There is one design, that seems popular, that I've had 'pop' and throw fuel a few times... I don't use that design anymore.

I've also had a canister stove emit a burst of liquid gas, causing a quick blast of abnormally large flames.

[Don H]

A large amount of fuel from the alcohol stove that would be dangerous?

[MDSection12]

A large amount of fuel from the alcohol stove that would be dangerous?
No, just a very small amount. As long as you weren't on something flammable, which you shouldn't be anyway, it wouldn't have been an issue... But it still is possible to throw flaming liquid from one. That said, the canister stove incident was arguably more dangerous. It was struggling to run in cold, and all the sudden it flamed up. Had I been leaning over it, trying to get it to run properly, that could have sucked.

Fire requires caution. I don't think either should be used without an awareness that the unlikely may happen

[RedBeerd]

They are dangerous mainly when stupidity is involved. I use a cat can stove and there was only ONE time when I said to myself: "oh ****, I need to put this out" and that was when I chose a poor site, wind, with dry leaves around and the flame was going to catch nearby leaves on fire. But besides that I've never had a spill or any dangerous issue. That is with 5+ months of almost daily use.
Now the time I poured white gas out of an MSR bottle onto a fire and it caught....

[MDSection12]

Also, I have knocked an alcohol stove over when removing my pot... That was bad.

[Colter]

I think alcohol stoves are more dangerous for starting wildfires under dry conditions, and people have to be careful not to drink the fuel they've stored in beverage containers! Overall, though, I would bet there's less chance for serious human injuries than most other stove types.

[MuddyWaters]

Invisible flame in daylight
Have to remove pot from burning stove with heat coming up sides
Have to remove hot windscreen
No way to put out without snuffer can
Easy to spill and ignite the woods

Id say its horribly dangerous for a 10-13 yr old, as well as many adults.

[Foresight]

Has anyone had a serious safety issue with another type of stove such as a canister or liquid fueled stove?



http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?100845-26-year-old-whisperlite&p=1834238#post1834238

[MDSection12]

Invisible flame in daylight
Have to remove pot from burning stove with heat coming up sides
Have to remove hot windscreen
No way to put out without snuffer can
Easy to spill and ignite the woods

Id say its horribly dangerous for a 10-13 yr old, as well as many adults.
I think I'd agree. The canister stove can be dangerous, but the solution is much simpler; turn it off. Alcohol stoves require a calm, intelligent reaction if anything goes wrong.

[jimmyjam]

I use an alcohol stove and it is hard to see the flame in direct sunlight. Also like others have said if you knock it over you will spread burning fuel unless you have one of the types that has a wick to hold the fuel. Like a lot of things, they are as dangerous as the person using them.

[fiddlehead]

I remember when I was in the boyscouts and we would talk about drinking alcohol.
Trying it with dry-gas or denatured alcohol could be disaster.
Sounds like the BSA has a good rule for a number of reasons.

[Slo-go'en]

All stoves are dangerous in the wrong hands. Poorly maintained white gas stove are the worst. When I see someone pull out a white gas stove, I stand back! Especially if it's a known problem stove like the Peak 1 and whisperlight. If I see a boy scout troop pull out one of those stoves, I stand way back...


Stove tending and cooking are skills which need to be taught by example, no matter what the medium. There has to be a proper cooking area prepared regardless of what kind of stove is used. Which means nothing easialy flamable should be within a couple of feet of the stove. It's when people get lazy and forget that rule that there can become a problem.

[leaftye]

In 2010 a PCT hiker a couple days behind me started a fire on the north face of Mt San Jacinto with a tipped over alcohol stove. My alcohol stove tipped over while burning on a trip last month, but there was very little risk since I set it up in a safe spot, although I nearly risked burning my hand in the invisible flames by trying to rescue my pot.

[MuddyWaters]

I remember when I was in the boyscouts and we would talk about drinking alcohol.
Trying it with dry-gas or denatured alcohol could be disaster.
Sounds like the BSA has a good rule for a number of reasons.


Well, the BSA doesnt prohibit alcohol stoves, they do discourage it.
What they do prohibit is homemade stoves, or the typical ones that people hand make out of recycled materials.
The reason is pretty simple, no control over design, risk, etc.

If you want to purchase a commercially made and machined alcohol stove like the Trangia, that would be allowed, although still discouraged.
If it were me I would outright ban alcohol fueled camping stoves in BSA. No reason not to make it cut and dry.

Prohibited Chemical-Fueled Equipment

—
Equipment
that is handcrafted, homemade, modified, or installed
beyond the manufacturer’s stated design limitations
or use. Examples include alcohol-burning “can” stoves,
smudge pots, improperly installed heaters, and propane
burners with their regulators removed.

Chemical Fuels not Recommended

—
Unleaded gasoline; liquid alcohol fuels, including isopropyl alcohol,
denatured ethyl alcohol, and ethanol; and other flammable

chemicals that are not in accordance with the
manufacturer’s instructions for chemical-fueled equipment.

[Astro]

A little irony is that when at a Merit Badge University for the the Engineering Merit Badge, what my son's class built were stoves made from coke cans.

[Mags]

I remember when I was in the boyscouts and we would talk about drinking alcohol.
Trying it with dry-gas or denatured alcohol could be disaster.
Sounds like the BSA has a good rule for a number of reasons.

I was going to say that. I was a 12 yo boyscout once. I can only imagine what kind of mischief an open flame stove would cause among 12 yo pyros. :)

[Starchild]

Does the BSA allow esbit?

I think a large part of the issue is liability and accountability, the BSA wanting to only use equipment from a well recognized manufacturer.

On the other hand, the BSA of the past would most likely have a stove making merit badge if they used those types of stoves back then, it does seem like a great activity and useful project for a scout.

I do find alcohol fuel to have certain safety concerns that are beyond that of canister or even wood or esbit. That being invisible flame (under certain conditions), no standard design so no quality control, spilling of fuel when it happens much less controllable or recoverable then lets say esbit. No shutoff valve, this is recognized as a safety hazard as some places ban any stove without a shut off valve (so no wood, esbit or alcohol - though I have seen one type of alchy stove with a shutoff valve). To its safety benefit alcohol does burn at a lower temperature which does seem to lower it's speed of getting other things to ignite if it was spilled.

[Alligator]

Spillage as mentioned for alcohol stoves. Seems like every shelter and table will have a ring burnt into it. Can't say for sure whether these are mainly from alcohol stoves, I've never been the cause of the ring burn.

White gas stoves can also spill if they are overprimed, a lot of them have the small primer cup on the bottom. I've personally sent up a small fireball or two from slightly overpriming with WG. Don't lean over the stove. Had a pump crack on a WG stove. Old storage seals can get brittle/crack. I've had a leaky fuel bottle before, that could be a safety problem.

Small safety issue with a canister stove I have is that way the stove folds up leaves the valve slightly open. When reconnecting, this lets out some fuel if you don't remember to close the valve completely. I generally remember to tighten the valve beforehand. Perhaps it could be serious if I delayed lighting.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I'm currently in a discussion on a Boy Scout form about the use of homemade soda can stoves which are currently banned by BSA. The head of the Safety Committee for BSA claims to have interviewed "experienced thru-hikers" who have stated that these stoves have serious safety issues.

Has anyone had a serious safety issues with these stoves?

Has anyone had a serious safety issue with another type of stove such as a canister or liquid fueled stove?

Thanks for the input.

As an Eagle Scout I can confirm that there is substantial risk involved in allowing scouts to be in possession of a flammable liquid without constant supervision. I won't get into my personal experiences, but trust me we had fun, it was a miracle that nobody got seriously injured, and they stopped bringing lighter fluid on camping trips because of us.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Invisible flame in daylight
Have to remove pot from burning stove with heat coming up sides
Have to remove hot windscreen
No way to put out without snuffer can
Easy to spill and ignite the woods

Id say its horribly dangerous for a 10-13 yr old, as well as many adults.


I remember when I was in the boyscouts and we would talk about drinking alcohol.
Trying it with dry-gas or denatured alcohol could be disaster.
Sounds like the BSA has a good rule for a number of reasons.


I was going to say that. I was a 12 yo boyscout once. I can only imagine what kind of mischief an open flame stove would cause among 12 yo pyros. :)

Totally agree with all of the above. Some of my best childhood memories are from the seven years I was a Boy Scout, but I also clearly remember the many mishaps we had over the years, some were honest mistakes, some were due to mischief. For the scout leaders it's a bit of a balancing act to weigh the importance of giving the scouts freedom and responsibility versus looking out for their safety. I have to say that in the case of alcohol stoves, I agree with the decision to prohibit them from BSA activities.

Would I trust a well supervised 12 year old to cook on a homemade fancy feast stove? Sure would.

Would I trust a patrol of sugared up 12 year olds to mess around with a homemade stove and denatured alcohol when no adult was watching? Not a chance.

[Leanthree]

A poorly maintained white gas stove scares the crap out of me. Had to throw sand on one that started spewing flaming white gas under pressure. The flame/pressure feedback loop is a bitch, luckily we were in the desert, had the stove set up on a large slab rock and far enough away from camp so there was nothing to catch on fire. It was a group trip stove so no real owner that I am guessing had a faulty O-ring after too many years of use. Also possible it was cross threaded but I wasn't the one who was cooking at that moment, just watching from afar.

No matter what the stove is, you need to learn to use it and the owner of any group gear needs to make sure to replace the O rings among other non-field maintenance.

[Siarl]

I can't find the video that I saw on an alcohol demo which demonstrated the dangers of a homemade, double-walled alcohol stove made from a soda can. But it's on youtube somewhere. I'm no physics expert but supposedly the double wall caved in under pressure which resulted in the uneven feed of the alcohol resulting in the flame going out of control. I for one have chosen to use just a simple small canister fitted with a charcoal filter and basically it just burns without pressurization. I'm sure there are a lot of alcohol stoves that are just fine and built well, but it concerns me that alot of folks out there are manufacturing these homemade soda can, catfood can, etc stoves and don't understand the physics and engineering aspects that need to be considered while building these items. Just my two cents.

[Tuckahoe]

While denatured alcohol is discouraged, what is clearly the issue for BSA is the home made/DYI stoves.

I wonder what BSA's view of the stoves made by someone like Tinny at MBD would be. Would there be differing opinions or prohibitions on his stoves made from reclaimed Bud bottles versus his actual machined stoves?

[moytoy]

While denatured alcohol is discouraged, what is clearly the issue for BSA is the home made/DYI stoves.

I wonder what BSA's view of the stoves made by someone like Tinny at MBD would be. Would there be differing opinions or prohibitions on his stoves made from reclaimed Bud bottles versus his actual machined stoves?
If it's not UL approved BSA is probably not going to allow them. It's a liability issue I would think.

[moldy]

I lifted the following from a trail journal posted a couple of years ago, "The trail follows along the very edge of these high cilffs for a mile or two and offers quite a view. I arrived at the shelter well before dark. There were 3 others already sleeping as I was getting ready for bed when we herd sombody singing loudly. Along comes this young man, a thru-hiker I had met a few days before, LOLO. It seems that he encountered a bear up on the cliffs that ran off but he sensed was following him and he started singing in an attempt to scare off the bear. This kid then set out some of his equipment and decides to cook in the shelter as opposed to the picnic table 5 yards away. He has one of those little alcohol stoves and while lighting it, he dumps it over and starts a fire on the floor of the shelter between 2 sleeping hikers. Everyone scrambles up and I throw the kid a water bottle and tell him to dump it on the fire. He does not want to make a mess and holds off a few seconds. Thats when the fire burns thru his un-noticed bic lighter and it explodes in 3 directions and his hair briefly catches on fire. He ended up with a few minor burns and some burn spots on some equipment. We were all lucky that he had put his plastic fuel bottle behind him before lighting the stove. I guess there are a few lessons here, like "don't cook in the shelter" or "when you have a chance to put out the fire, do it now". Frank the Tank 2013, Lamberts Meadow Shelter
"

[bfayer]

The Boy Scouts do not ban alcohol stoves, only homemade alcohol stoves. They do not recommend liquid alcohol however.

As a current ASM of a troop in VA, I can tell you that liquid fuel of any kind is not the best idea for scouts. There are rarely enough adults to provide the type of oversight needed to ensure that the fuel is not misused, this would require direct one on one adult supervision anytime scouts are in direct possession of the fuel (which is from the time we leave till we get back). On a typical camp out there will be three separate patrols and a dozen or more scouts some as young as 10, often many with special needs. Meals and cooking are done using the patrol method which means everyone is involved in some way in the preparation of meals.

When we use liquid fuel (white gas only) we require direct adult supervision when scouts are actually handling the liquid fuel (filling bottles, defueling stoves, etc). However we have switched to canisters almost exclusively for all the reasons given in this thread.

There have been significant mishaps with scouts and liquid fuel over the years including scouts that have died as a result. Our goal in our troop is to make sure nothing like that ever happens with our scouts. One example is in the link below.

http://articles.philly.com/2008-07-12/news/25245410_1_scout-executive-boy-scouts-younger-scouts

This is the current BSA stove and fuel policy:
PURPOSE This policy directs Boy Scouts of America members how to safely store, handle, and use chemical fuels and equipment. Safety and environmental awareness concerns have persuaded many campers to move away from traditional outdoor campfires in favor of chemical-fueled equipment for cooking, heating, and lighting. Be aware that chemical fuels and equipment create very different hazards than traditional wood, charcoal, and other solid fuels; this policy defines how to address those hazards.

Before any chemical fuels or chemical-fueled equipment is used, an adult knowledgeable about chemical fuels and equipment, including regulatory requirements should resolve any hazards not specifically addressed within this policy.
Definitions Chemical Fuels—Liquid, gaseous, or gelled fuels.

Approved Chemical-Fueled Equipment—Commercially manufactured equipment, including stoves, grills, burners, heaters, and lanterns that are designed to be used with chemical fuels.

Prohibited Chemical-Fueled Equipment—Equipment that is handcrafted, homemade, modified, or installed beyond the manufacturer’s stated design limitations or use. Examples include alcohol-burning “can” stoves, smudge pots, improperly installed heaters, and propane burners with their regulators removed.

Recommended Chemical Fuels—White gas (Coleman fuel); kerosene; liquefied petroleum gas fuels, including propane, butane, and isobutane; vegetable oil fuels; biodiesel fuel; and commercially prepared gelled-alcohol fuel in original containers.

Chemical Fuels not Recommended—Unleaded gasoline; liquid alcohol fuels, including isopropyl alcohol, denatured ethyl alcohol, and ethanol; and other flammable chemicals that are not in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions for chemical-fueled equipment.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-013WB.pdf

[Tuckahoe]

I wonder what BSA's view of the stoves made by someone like Tinny at MBD would be. Would there be differing opinions or prohibitions on his stoves made from reclaimed Bud bottles versus his actual machined stoves?


If it's not UL approved BSA is probably not going to allow them. It's a liability issue I would think.



Approved Chemical-Fueled Equipment—Commercially manufactured equipment, including stoves, grills, burners, heaters, and lanterns that are designed to be used with chemical fuels.

Prohibited Chemical-Fueled Equipment—Equipment that is handcrafted, homemade, modified, or installed beyond the manufacturer’s stated design limitations or use. Examples include alcohol-burning “can” stoves, smudge pots, improperly installed heaters, and propane burners with their regulators removed.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-013WB.pdf

And this is where my original question comes in. At what point is a stove homemade/DYI or commercially manufactures? I accept that if I make a stove, that its considered home made. Especially in light of the fact that I can go pick the Bud bottles out of the trash at Busch Gardens and then make them at home with hand tools or carry them into work and crank them out on lunch. I am not selling them nor running a licensed business.

On the other hand I see folks like Tinny at MBD as a commercial manufacturer. He may be a tiny little manufacturer, but he is one nonetheless. The only difference I see is that he is a small one man operation as opposed to a sweat shop in China.

[garlic08]

One of the reasons I now go stoveless is safety. A wildland fire was started by an overturned homemade stove on my PCT hike in 2004, and closed the trail for a couple of days. I personally saw homemade stoves overturned twice on that hike, once from a gust of wind, once from being knocked. Suitable precautions were in place to prevent wildland fire, but it's not fun at all having even a fraction of an ounce of invisible flammable liquid anywhere near you. They are very light and unstable and responsible care must be taken.

A homemade stove is a suitable tool for many, as is a chainsaw, but certain tools are well kept out of the hands of children.

[4eyedbuzzard]

And this is where my original question comes in. At what point is a stove homemade/DYI or commercially manufactures? I accept that if I make a stove, that its considered home made. Especially in light of the fact that I can go pick the Bud bottles out of the trash at Busch Gardens and then make them at home with hand tools or carry them into work and crank them out on lunch. I am not selling them nor running a licensed business.

On the other hand I see folks like Tinny at MBD as a commercial manufacturer. He may be a tiny little manufacturer, but he is one nonetheless. The only difference I see is that he is a small one man operation as opposed to a sweat shop in China.

Of prime concern here is does he have product safety testing by a recognized lab, i.e. UL, CSA , et al, and does he have product liability insurance? If not, I would have to agree that no organization can approve or sanction use of the product. Stoves can be very dangerous, especially in the hands of children, regardless of the amount of adult supervision.

[Odd Man Out]

Invisible flame in daylight
Have to remove pot from burning stove with heat coming up sides
Have to remove hot windscreen
No way to put out without snuffer can
Easy to spill and ignite the woods

Id say its horribly dangerous for a 10-13 yr old, as well as many adults.

I'd say I would agree with all of this. Although, looking at your list, I have been adjusting my alcohol stove system over the past year to eliminate all of these problems (except the invisible flame).

[msupple]

After having knocked over a couple of regular alky stoves I switched over to one of Zelph's Staryte stoves which contains a material that soaks up and contains the alcohol. I've lit it and intentionally knocked it over. It did stay lit but no alcohol spilled. I was able to upright it by using a coupe of twigs and continue cooking. He also has other stoves that soak up the alcohol but the Starlyte is my favorite. I would have reservations giving alky stoves to young "unsupervised" kids but if I did it would be one similar to the Starlyte.

Cat in the Hat

[ULterEgo]

I'm currently in a discussion on a Boy Scout form about the use of homemade soda can stoves which are currently banned by BSA. The head of the Safety Committee for BSA claims to have interviewed "experienced thru-hikers" who have stated that these stoves have serious safety issues.

Has anyone had a serious safety issues with these stoves?

Has anyone had a serious safety issue with another type of stove such as a canister or liquid fueled stove?

Thanks for the input.

Any liquid fuel stove has potential risks. I've seen both adults and youth in boy scouting take their eyelashes and parts of eyebrows off while lighting white gas stoves with poor technique. I've never seen anyone be injured by alcohol stoves, though I've seen spilled alcohol on fire that had to be extinguished.

I've seen canister stoves get tipped over while burning and the need to extinguish burning debris on the ground as a result.

[TAG]

As a Scout leader, I strongly encourage canister stoves for our Scouts. White gas stoves that aren't maintained well are scary. Alcohol stoves and 11 year olds don't mix well -- particularly when the flame can't be seen in the daylight. Yes, a canister stove can be very dangerous, but the risk is much lower than the other alternatives.

[Slo-go'en]

Spillage as mentioned for alcohol stoves. Seems like every shelter and table will have a ring burnt into it. Can't say for sure whether these are mainly from alcohol stoves, I've never been the cause of the ring burn.

Burn rings are primarly caused by MSR Whisperlight stoves. They have a low profile burner which burns real hot. With a wide bottom pot on the burner, the heat is concentrated in that small space between the wood table/floor, burning that ring into the wood.

Yes, you can spill alcohol, but it doesn't tend to soak in much and it burns off quickly. It's really hard to start a fire with alcohol unless you pour it on a pourous matterial and let it soak in for a few minutes, then light it. Or if you have it set up on tinder dry duff and then spill it. If you clear the area around the stove down to dirt, there is no chance of starting a fire and that only takes a few minutes. Or, if your in a fire prone area, set the stove on a small aluminum pie tin which would contain any spills if an accident occurs. (but should still clear the area around the stove of duff)

[Mags]

All stoves are dangerous. But, it seems to me, canister stoves are the least dangerous. Nothing to prime or liquid that can easily spill. Not as prone to O-ring failures like some stoves.

I defer to the scout leaders, but I heard more scout troops are using canister stoves vs even white gas? (Propane for camping, Pocket Rocket types for backpacking)

[RED-DOG]

I never had a problem with a alchy stoves, But I had a MSR dragonfly Flare up with me I think it was due to over pumping.

[zelph]

I'm currently in a discussion on a Boy Scout form about the use of homemade soda can stoves which are currently banned by BSA. The head of the Safety Committee for BSA claims to have interviewed "experienced thru-hikers" who have stated that these stoves have serious safety issues.

Has anyone had a serious safety issues with these stoves?

There is a thread in the DIY forum that gives an idea of what some hikers have experienced:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?15537-Exploding-Stoves-Etc

Seems like scout leaders need to think before leading a group of scouts

Has anyone had a serious safety issue with another type of stove such as a canister or liquid fueled stove?

Thanks for the input.

There is a thread in the DIY gear forum that can shed some light on mishaps that can occur while using stoves. Might have some examples of the DIY pop can stoves.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?15537-Exploding-Stoves-Etc

Scout leaders also need to be extra careful of what they teach:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90hsmfBwkyU

No doubt there was some facial hair lost in the contest.

[Odd Man Out]

After having knocked over a couple of regular alky stoves I switched over to one of Zelph's Staryte stoves which contains a material that soaks up and contains the alcohol. I've lit it and intentionally knocked it over. It did stay lit but no alcohol spilled. I was able to upright it by using a coupe of twigs and continue cooking. He also has other stoves that soak up the alcohol but the Starlyte is my favorite. I would have reservations giving alky stoves to young "unsupervised" kids but if I did it would be one similar to the Starlyte.

Cat in the Hat

Yes that is what I'm using. Plus the version with no pot support is easily snuffed out.

[booney_1]

I was a scout leader for many years...we had a group of older kids who ended up doing a couple week long sections hikes...we tried to teach them Light camping (tarps,etc...). We had them use esbit stoves that were home made. They had fun doing this and they are pretty cheap to use. The scout shop sells one of the "standard" folding esbit stoves. I made a conscious decision to not use alcohol stoves. They will get tipped over. (even with the esbit...I like having a "kitchen" area marked off where nobody walks. (actually this is a good idea with any stove). Even older scouts are at a risk for misusing the stove (they all LOVE fire). I was also extremely afraid the alcohol would be accidentally consumed.
(slight worry one of the younger ones might not "believe" us when we tell them it's toxic)

Even canister stoves worry me a lot. The best kind are the ones with an external fuel tank so that you can use a wind screen without worrying about heating the canister. It's very hard to fully supervise a group of kids this age.

[zelph]

I was a scout leader for many years...we had a group of older kids who ended up doing a couple week long sections hikes...we tried to teach them Light camping (tarps,etc...). We had them use esbit stoves that were home made. They had fun doing this and they are pretty cheap to use. The scout shop sells one of the "standard" folding esbit stoves. I made a conscious decision to not use alcohol stoves. They will get tipped over. (even with the esbit...I like having a "kitchen" area marked off where nobody walks. (actually this is a good idea with any stove). Even older scouts are at a risk for misusing the stove (they all LOVE fire). I was also extremely afraid the alcohol would be accidentally consumed.
(slight worry one of the younger ones might not "believe" us when we tell them it's toxic)

Even canister stoves worry me a lot. The best kind are the ones with an external fuel tank so that you can use a wind screen without worrying about heating the canister. It's very hard to fully supervise a group of kids this age.

There are a few DIY alcohol stove designs that absorb all the fuel to make them less dangerous if tipped over.

Best to follow the BSA regulations when with the troop.

[bfayer]

And this is where my original question comes in. At what point is a stove homemade/DYI or commercially manufactures? I accept that if I make a stove, that its considered home made. Especially in light of the fact that I can go pick the Bud bottles out of the trash at Busch Gardens and then make them at home with hand tools or carry them into work and crank them out on lunch. I am not selling them nor running a licensed business.

On the other hand I see folks like Tinny at MBD as a commercial manufacturer. He may be a tiny little manufacturer, but he is one nonetheless. The only difference I see is that he is a small one man operation as opposed to a sweat shop in China.

Since we are talking about the safety of children in our care, the answer should be: If you have to ask, the answer is no.

Just because someone sells something does not make it a commercial product in this context. If any scout leader is in doubt they can ask their District Executive, that is what they are there for.

[perdidochas]

All stoves are dangerous. But, it seems to me, canister stoves are the least dangerous. Nothing to prime or liquid that can easily spill. Not as prone to O-ring failures like some stoves.

I defer to the scout leaders, but I heard more scout troops are using canister stoves vs even white gas? (Propane for camping, Pocket Rocket types for backpacking)

Well, my troop (I'm an ASM) uses propane for camping. We use a variety of stoves for backpacking--I recommend either esbit or a cannister stove. We have a few white gas stoves (SVEA and two Whisperlites)--belong to my SM who used them as a Scout. I used a Coleman 442 duel fuel for a short time, but have gone to a canister for convenience/ease.

[RedBeerd]

I wonder if this was what happened with 2013s San Jacinto fire.

[RedBeerd]

^ that was meant for leafteye

[zelph]

I'm currently in a discussion on a Boy Scout form about the use of homemade soda can stoves which are currently banned by BSA. The head of the Safety Committee for BSA claims to have interviewed "experienced thru-hikers" who have stated that these stoves have serious safety issues.

Has anyone had a serious safety issues with these stoves?

Has anyone had a serious safety issue with another type of stove such as a canister or liquid fueled stove?

Thanks for the input.

Don, what are your thoughts now that we've had a sampling of ideas and thoughts?

[Astro]

Never will forget when my youngest son was on his first Camporee and he said to me Dad my shoe is on fire. Yes the boy scouts (even the older one) do love fires.

[leaftye]

I wonder if this was what happened with 2013s San Jacinto fire.

Fortunately not.

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Mountain-Fire-Idyllwild-San-Jacinto-Mountain-Cause-217038081.html

[English Stu]

There are safety issues with any stove.I used a Simmerlite on one of my sections. I have used a Bushcooker wood stove on another with an alky back up which I liked. I now have the FeatherFire stove, an alky stove that can simmer, snuff out and remove any excess fuel after heating.

[Don H]

Don, what are your thoughts now that we've had a sampling of ideas and thoughts?

I have yet to hear of a first hand account of a serious safety issue or failure that would be exclusive to these stoves.
I haven't done the math yet but the common problems seem to be tipping the stove over, with improper fueling a distant second.

[lonehiker]

I have yet to hear of a first hand account of a serious safety issue or failure that would be exclusive to these stoves.

I've singed the hair on my fingers countless times lighting with my mini bic. When I gave my 11 year old nephew a homemade stove for his birthday I gave him small flint and steel so he wouldn't have the same problem.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Flammable liquids + improvised stoves + ignition source + boy scouts + distracted leaders = a) responsibility and trust building activity, b) recipe for disaster with lawsuits against BSA, Troop, and leaders

[MDSection12]

I have yet to hear of a first hand account of a serious safety issue or failure that would be exclusive to these stoves.
I haven't done the math yet but the common problems seem to be tipping the stove over, with improper fueling a distant second.
You seem to want to prove them safe, despite the majority of posters in here agreeing that they aren't suitable for scouts... I'm guessing this thread isn't helping your side of the argument?

[MuddyWaters]

And this is where my original question comes in. At what point is a stove homemade/DYI or commercially manufactures? I accept that if I make a stove, that its considered home made. Especially in light of the fact that I can go pick the Bud bottles out of the trash at Busch Gardens and then make them at home with hand tools or carry them into work and crank them out on lunch. I am not selling them nor running a licensed business.

On the other hand I see folks like Tinny at MBD as a commercial manufacturer. He may be a tiny little manufacturer, but he is one nonetheless. The only difference I see is that he is a small one man operation as opposed to a sweat shop in China.


Equipment
that is handcrafted, homemade, modified, or installed
beyond the manufacturer’s stated design limitations
or use. Examples include alcohol-burning “can” stoves


It doesnt differentiate between who makes it. Its prohibited. Minibulls are still hancrafted can stoves.

[Tuckahoe]

Equipment
that is handcrafted, homemade, modified, or installed
beyond the manufacturer’s stated design limitations
or use. Examples include alcohol-burning “can” stoves


It doesnt differentiate between who makes it. Its prohibited. Minibulls are still hancrafted can stoves.


Absolutely true, when we are talking about a stove that is manufactured from recycled aluminum beer bottles and coke cans, cat food cans or Altoids cans.

But then MBD (and I am not singling out Tinny, only using as an example) also maufactures actual stoves as well, machined from parts purposefully manufactured to be built to be stoves.

It is pretty clear that the BSA bans the use of coke can/home made/DYI stoves. But the BSA does allow manufactured alcohol stoves. I would assume that they are not going to have a subjective standard to determine what is an acceptable alcohol stove. What is that actual standard that the BSA uses to determine that the stove is commercially manufactured equipment?

From the PDF that bfayer

Approved Chemical-Fueled Equipment—Commercially manufactured equipment, including stoves, grills, burners, heaters, and lanterns that are designed to be used with chemical fuels.

[jrabbott]

I want to stand up for the white gas Whisperlite stove. As with anything you need to practice lighting a stove and then putting the flame out..with that said the alcohol stoves usually have to be either snuffed out or you just let the alcohol burn all the way out. With the Whisperlite you simply turn the stove off and conserve the white gas/fuel. I have made two alchy stoves - one out of a cat food can and one out of a two Budweiser cans (after drinking them of course!!) - I am getting to the age where I cant see the flames well at all...they work but I load my Whisperlite into my pack cause I know it will boil water and it will boil it fast!!! Just my two cents Just wanted to plug the MSR Whisperlite as a GO TO stove.

[Don H]

You seem to want to prove them safe, despite the majority of posters in here agreeing that they aren't suitable for scouts... I'm guessing this thread isn't helping your side of the argument?

No, what I'm looking for is actual cases where an alcohol stove failed and created a real danger.

The discussion on the Scouting forum started when the guy who writes the safety guidelines for BSA wrote this:

"Alcohol as a stove fuel, something to discuss.
Burns really well but sure is hard to see that flame during daytime operation. Have any of you web savvy folks reviewed the publically documented catastrophic failure reports and see what appears to be a trend.

Which alcohol are you all talking about? Some of those fuel additives have alcohol present, I saw on the web they will work.....what about that stuff in our first aid kit....
From a homemade device standpoint.....what is the pressure rating of those cans? What happens if I use a quarter vs. a penny? Oh and where is the off switch....or snuffer....Why do we need to do this? (is because we can or want to the answer?) Are there more readily available commercially proven products that exist? What impact does this really have?Looking forward to an enlightening and energetic discussion of the facts, myths, and paradigms."I'm looking for cases of "Catastrophic failures" and I figure that if someone would know about this they would be here.BSA claims they've done "extensive research" but I'm thinking if you have to ask what would happen if you use a quarter instead of a penny on a penny stove than you have little to no knowledge of alcohol stoves. My position is that alcohol stoves are not suited for younger scouts but BSA safety guidelines allow for activities based on age. Age categories are; up to age 14, 14 and older, 16 and older, and 18 and older. They may be suitable for 14 or 16 and older.

[booney_1]

A real simple stove that is good for scouts is a wood burning "hobo" stove. Basically a number 10 tin (coffee can). These can burn wood, and you can do real cooking with it. It takes only a handful of sticks to cook. The esbit and alcohol stoves are really only good for boiling a couple cups of water.

Somebody above said the biggest danger is knocking over a stove. Aside from losing dinner, the hot contents can easily burn somebody. Scouts that use canister stoves are often especially at risk from this since they are cooking for a patrol, hence using a larger pot.

[zelph]

No, what I'm looking for is actual cases where an alcohol stove failed and created a real danger.

T.

John Austin, also known as Tinny at Minibulldesign.com has the most knowledge of pressurized pop can stoves. In his beginnings he had stoves explode and shared that info on his blog that he had at the time. He is the one to ask directly if you can about his experiences. There are two stoves listed in the quote below made by him. If I remember correctly, those 2 stoves were pop can stoves. "oops56" can verify this. He post here on WB. He participated on Tinney"s blog way back then and so did I under the name "firefly"

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?15537-Exploding-Stoves-Etc

06-13-2006, 21:48

Exploding Stoves Etc.

Over the last 6 months or so I have come across some statements on different forums concerning homemade stoves blowing up and some overflowing into a ball of flames.
I had a home made pressurized one blow up because I forgot to put the fuel port screw back in. Only had 1/2 ounce of fuel in it to do a test, blew the top half off, it went straight up into the rafters of my garage The little bit of alcohol was blown out for about a 5 foot radius, some small patches of fire here and there, 2 or 3 on the front of my chest the size of quarters, they quickly extinguished. I was not hurt luckily I walked away shaken but not detered. I also had a small prototype T candle side burner blow up in my kitchen because holes were too large.

I’d like all of you to post your experiences in regards to stove blowup or fuel overflowing in a ball of flame because of over filling the stove.

I hope this thread sheds some light on how we need to be more aware of stove safety on and off the trails.

Most recently in this forum Jazilla inquired : Any one have a problem with small explosions with the penny stove. I had the al bottle penny stove pop twice and I had my Sunkist penny pop on first use. Wondering what would cause this problem or is it just the operator.

I actually had the burner pop out when I first lit my Sunkist penny. It Blows up kind of when I first light the primer in the top of the burner with the penny in place

I had 3 stoves pop like this on the first test. After that they pop no more. When I say pop I mean hop up like a small explosion. The first time this happened to me it blew the burner out of the cup.

ppereira007 wrote:
My first homemade stoves were photons. When you forget to put the filler screw back in, they "POP" when you light them. Happened to me twice, both times when too tired to think straight!

Spock wrote:
Yep, I had a penny stove pop and spray flaming alcohol around the kitchen. Melted the front of my microwave. Unfun. The reason was the holes were too large and the flame was able to ignite the air/fuel mixture remaining in the stove. Smaller holes fixed it.

Knightwalker (WB)
Build a Photon and light it with the screw out of the fill hole. You'll get yer explosion. They pop really good with alcohol when missing the fill screw. Gas oughtta be a real hoot.
Use a VERY long lighter!

Tinney(MBD)
The latest test is up on my adventure site which is a daily blog of my life at ww.minibulldesign.com ---The squirting fuel was caused by a gross over fueling of the SST to the point that there was no room for gas to build up so it pushed out solid fuel.

Tinney(MBD)
Bug bags--Catchup and Exploding stoves
I had an email from a customer who says his TREK exploded and set him on fire. I think he may have filled it to the brim with fuel and then got in real close and lit it.


Salvelinus(HHQ)
Yep, I've had it happen, too. On a pressurized model that wasn't epoxied, I stupidly forgot to replace the screw on the fill port--realized it as soon as I lit it, and just had time to get my hand back when the top of the burner popped off of the bottom. Fortunately I was setup on a fire-resistant surface so I just let the flames burn out.
Gotta be careful with those things, but they sure are fun to play with!

Fireboy(WB) I had one blow up also, left the screw out of the fill hole. Also had one that the fuel expanded while the stove heated up and overflowed into a ball of fire. These little things can be hazardous to your health and equipment. Be cautious

Patrick(WB)
That's interesting. The stove that blew up on me was a wedding tin with only a very small hole in the top.
It's the very small hole. Same with the un-closed Photon. Huge, fast vapor pressure spike. BOOM!

Patrick: (WB)
I had an alcohol one blow up once, so I figured this was a lock. I feel like I really let the team down.

[zelph]

An addition to the above postwhich is a comment made by Tinny of MBD(John Austin)


Tinney(MBD)
I probably play with more stoves on a daily basis than the average person. I do a test burn on every new design and also on a few every day just to check my work. After being burned several times ,once quite badly. I now wear a thin pair of leather gloves that weigh almost nothing and are worth their weight in gold. you can also use them for any project that may damage your hands. I would highly recommend that anybody using any backpacking stove wear a pair of gloves. A burn on your hand can really mess up your trip and even cut it short if it is bad enough. Why take a chance. I don't anymore

[Don H]

John Austin, also known as Tinny at Minibulldesign.com has the most knowledge of pressurized pop can stoves. In his beginnings he had stoves explode and shared that info on his blog that he had at the time. He is the one to ask directly if you can about his experiences. There are two stoves listed in the quote below made by him. If I remember correctly, those 2 stoves were pop can stoves. "oops56" can verify this. He post here on WB. He participated on Tinney"s blog way back then and so did I under the name "firefly"

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?15537-Exploding-Stoves-Etc

06-13-2006, 21:48

Exploding Stoves Etc.

Over the last 6 months or so I have come across some statements on different forums concerning homemade stoves blowing up and some overflowing into a ball of flames.
I had a home made pressurized one blow up because I forgot to put the fuel port screw back in. Only had 1/2 ounce of fuel in it to do a test, blew the top half off, it went straight up into the rafters of my garage The little bit of alcohol was blown out for about a 5 foot radius, some small patches of fire here and there, 2 or 3 on the front of my chest the size of quarters, they quickly extinguished. I was not hurt luckily I walked away shaken but not detered. I also had a small prototype T candle side burner blow up in my kitchen because holes were too large.

I’d like all of you to post your experiences in regards to stove blowup or fuel overflowing in a ball of flame because of over filling the stove.

I hope this thread sheds some light on how we need to be more aware of stove safety on and off the trails.

Most recently in this forum Jazilla inquired : Any one have a problem with small explosions with the penny stove. I had the al bottle penny stove pop twice and I had my Sunkist penny pop on first use. Wondering what would cause this problem or is it just the operator.

I actually had the burner pop out when I first lit my Sunkist penny. It Blows up kind of when I first light the primer in the top of the burner with the penny in place

I had 3 stoves pop like this on the first test. After that they pop no more. When I say pop I mean hop up like a small explosion. The first time this happened to me it blew the burner out of the cup.

ppereira007 wrote:
My first homemade stoves were photons. When you forget to put the filler screw back in, they "POP" when you light them. Happened to me twice, both times when too tired to think straight!

Spock wrote:
Yep, I had a penny stove pop and spray flaming alcohol around the kitchen. Melted the front of my microwave. Unfun. The reason was the holes were too large and the flame was able to ignite the air/fuel mixture remaining in the stove. Smaller holes fixed it.

Knightwalker (WB)
Build a Photon and light it with the screw out of the fill hole. You'll get yer explosion. They pop really good with alcohol when missing the fill screw. Gas oughtta be a real hoot.
Use a VERY long lighter!

Tinney(MBD)
The latest test is up on my adventure site which is a daily blog of my life at ww.minibulldesign.com ---The squirting fuel was caused by a gross over fueling of the SST to the point that there was no room for gas to build up so it pushed out solid fuel.

Tinney(MBD)
Bug bags--Catchup and Exploding stoves
I had an email from a customer who says his TREK exploded and set him on fire. I think he may have filled it to the brim with fuel and then got in real close and lit it.


Salvelinus(HHQ)
Yep, I've had it happen, too. On a pressurized model that wasn't epoxied, I stupidly forgot to replace the screw on the fill port--realized it as soon as I lit it, and just had time to get my hand back when the top of the burner popped off of the bottom. Fortunately I was setup on a fire-resistant surface so I just let the flames burn out.
Gotta be careful with those things, but they sure are fun to play with!

Fireboy(WB) I had one blow up also, left the screw out of the fill hole. Also had one that the fuel expanded while the stove heated up and overflowed into a ball of fire. These little things can be hazardous to your health and equipment. Be cautious

Patrick(WB)
That's interesting. The stove that blew up on me was a wedding tin with only a very small hole in the top.
It's the very small hole. Same with the un-closed Photon. Huge, fast vapor pressure spike. BOOM!

Patrick: (WB)
I had an alcohol one blow up once, so I figured this was a lock. I feel like I really let the team down.

So do you consider these stoves unsafe?

[Don H]

I'll pass this information on. Alcohol stoves will surely be banned forever after they see this. So be it, if they're unsafe they shouldn't be used.
I personally have made several types of can stoves and have never had an issue. Apparently I am in the minority.

[lonehiker]

I'll pass this information on. Alcohol stoves will surely be banned forever after they see this. So be it, if they're unsafe they shouldn't be used.
I personally have made several types of can stoves and have never had an issue. Apparently I am in the minority.

I suspect that you are actually part of the vast "silent" majority.

[StovieWander]

I think most if not all alcohol stoves have the potential for unburned fuel to condense on the bottom of the pot, at least until the pot temperature exceeds the boiling point of the fuel. I was recently surprised when burning fuel dripped from the bottom of the pot onto my pants leg and left a scorch mark.

Alcohol stoves can easily heat steel or titanium components red hot, 700 - 900 deg. C. This is more than hot enough to melt aluminum. Aluminum pot supports are lightweight, but a poor design choice based on the 660 deg. C melting point of aluminum. http://www.etowahoutfittersultralightbackpackinggear.com/etowah-II-alcohol-stove.html is a commercial example. I have not personally melted aluminum pot supports, but I know someone who did.

[zelph]

I'll pass this information on. Alcohol stoves will surely be banned forever after they see this. So be it, if they're unsafe they shouldn't be used.
I personally have made several types of can stoves and have never had an issue. Apparently I am in the minority.

Don, your original question was concerning "pop can" stoves. There are other kinds of alcohol stoves that are much more safe than the pop cans. Stoves that don't blow up. Stoves that are low pressure and ones that are open and absorb fuel so it can't spill out.

There are many people on this site that have seen the "Exploding Stove" thread but yet did not share the info....why....they forgot;)

When using an alcohol stove we have to "remember" some basic safety rules. Don't get in a hurry like the scouts in the video I provided. If you are a scout leader don't do as the leader in the video, use common sense.

We don't want homemade pop can stoves in the hands of our scouts/children.

I hope the moderators and others of this site will remember the info given in this thread and share it in the weeks/ months/years to come. :)

[Don H]

If an alcohol stove can melt a standard lightweight aluminum pot does that mean a Pocket Rocket or Whisperlite can too? I'm guessing this would only happen if the pot was left on the stove with nothing in it.

Seems to me that the other stoves burn hotter.

Zen's site says this about alcohol fuel:
"Reduced Output - about half the heat output per ounce compared to other liquid fuels (white gas, butane, etc)"
http://zenstoves.net/Stoves.htm

[zelph]

Don, see the post just before yours. It was added the same time as yours. Didn't want you to miss that one.

[Don H]

We don't want homemade pop can stoves in the hands of our scouts/children.

Does that include the stoves you sell?

Would you say a 16 or 18 year old should not use any type of alcohol stove except for a commercially manufactured stove?

Are you aware that Scouts can be up to 20 years old?

I figure that you have as much if not more knowledge on alcohol stoves as anyone, I value your opinion.

[StovieWander]

If an alcohol stove can melt a standard lightweight aluminum pot does that mean a Pocket Rocket or Whisperlite can too? I'm guessing this would only happen if the pot was left on the stove with nothing in it.

Seems to me that the other stoves burn hotter.

Zen's site says this about alcohol fuel:
"Reduced Output - about half the heat output per ounce compared to other liquid fuels (white gas, butane, etc)"
http://zenstoves.net/Stoves.htm


Yes, the water in the bottom of the pot protects the pot. I suppose you could melt an empty pot. It might require the hottest part of the flame, a wind to produce a blowtorch effect, a long burn time, a stove that burns fast, or some combination of these factors. I do not know anyone who has done this with alcohol, but it is not unusual for wood fires to eventually burn through aluminum cook wear.

Isopropyl alcohol 99% generates more heat per ounce than denatured alcohol, and may produce a big unruly inferno when burned in stoves not designed to burn it.

[bfayer]

...Are you aware that Scouts can be up to 20 years old?...

Just to clarify for non scouters on here: Boy Scouts can not be over 18, Venture/Sea Scouts can not be over 20. (Venture scouts are also coed).

DonH: Any scout can use alcohol stoves, they are just not recommended. If you want your older scouts to learn to use alcohol stoves, just go out and get a few Trangia stoves, or if weight is a huge issue then get an Evernew titanium stove. I would stick with Trangia because of the screw on lid and time proven record.

I would still not let scouts use alcohol stoves because the bang for the buck (so to speak) is not worth the additional risk IMHO.

For others, I am not saying that any particular commercially available stove is unsafe in the hands of an adult that knows how to safely operate them, In fact I think that the overwhelming majority of them are fine, and some are great designs.

In scouting however we are in charge of other peoples kids. That takes a extra level of risk management over and beyond what we would do ourselves or even what we would do with our own kids.

[zelph]

Does that include the stoves you sell?

Would you say a 16 or 18 year old should not use any type of alcohol stove except for a commercially manufactured stove?

Are you aware that Scouts can be up to 20 years old?

I figure that you have as much if not more knowledge on alcohol stoves as anyone, I value your opinion.

I would like to see all scout leaders adhere to the rules put forth by the BSA organization. Don't let the scouts use pop can type alcohol stoves. If they say 20 year old scouts are not to use pop can style DIY stoves then so be it.

Here is a video I made today for the DIY gear forum. The carbon felt disc causes the flame to be small for simmering a pot of water. Notice how 3 ounces of fuel is absorbed into the burner. The burner is tipped upside down soon after filling. A great safety feature. I have created 2 stoves with that safety feature, the StarLyte and the Venom Super Stove.

If the BSA had the opportunity to see my design of stove they might reconsider;) I would be glad to send them a case of samples.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TavizGeeD6Y

edited to add: The Trangia site recomends not storing their stove in the pot or with food items. The stored alcohol in it can leak out. I read it today....scouts honor !!!

[Don H]

Agree, bfayer.

The ban being discussed in another forum is about wether a total ban on home made alcohol stoves should remain. To answer that question we need facts and input from knowledgable people, which is why I asked here. This might not be the place to discuss BSA policy, but it is a place to gather information relating to it. If you've read my posts here I've only been asking questions, not taking a position one way or the other. Not until post 57 did I make any reference to a position when I said " My position is that alcohol stoves are not suited for younger scouts but BSA safety guidelines allow for activities based on age. Age categories are; up to age 14, 14 and older, 16 and older, and 18 and older. They may be suitable for 14 or 16 and older." Hardly a ringing endorsement for free use of these stoves.

You are also correct that Boy Scouts are under age 18 where as Venture and Sea Scouts are up to age 20. However the same safety guidelines apply to all youth, up to age 21 with exceptions based on the age categories mentioned above.

I've been in charge of other peoples kids for years and have never (knock on wood) had a serious accident.

Zelph, I'm not advocating violating BSA rules. If you read my first post then you know that the head of BSA's safety committee posed the question on alcohol stove safety. Just trying to get some real answers.

I'm also still looking for information on safety issues with other types of stoves.

[Theosus]

I know cat-food can stoves can be dangerous in inexperienced hands (namely mine)

I had a cone I made as a windshield, that the stove and my Ti cup sat down in. It turned the stove into a blast furnace, anything inside the cone would catch fire. pine straw, leaves, etc, leaving a blackened ring where I cooked. Stopped using that, but not before trying to toast a bagel over the open top, dropping said bagel onto the stove and spilling lit fuel all over the rock (thankfully!). "Whoosh!", and out. Another time I tried to light the stove from the emergency striking rod (I guess its like flint or something) on the bottom of my orange match holder. After three tries, I got too close, it lit all right, but the knife I was doing the striking with hit the stove and tipped it over in the dirt. Oops. "WHOOSH!" and out.
Now with my new and improved windscreen, some dumb a$$ mistakes, and a little knowledge about not being stupid... I can use the thing safely. I light it, put the cup on, and wait for the fire to go out, and strongly resist the urge to mess with it, touch it, spindle, fold, or mutilate it.
I can see these things being a BAD idea for kids, especially boys, since fourteen year old boys will NOT listen to the above instructions.
Of course, my snow-peak stove can be just as hazardous... but that's another post.

[beachbunny]

I remember when I was a scout, we were basically a bunch of little pyromaniacs! so it would seem smart not to let alky stoves as standard kit.

[Odd Man Out]

Here is a video I made today for the DIY gear forum. The carbon felt disc causes the flame to be small for simmering a pot of water. ...

I'm going to do this for my Starlyte! I already have a disk of carbon felt I use for insulation under the stove. What is the diameter of the hole?

[zelph]

I'm going to do this for my Starlyte! I already have a disk of carbon felt I use for insulation under the stove. What is the diameter of the hole?

The diameter of the hole is 5/8"

An after thought about the video: Cut a strip of felt 1" wide by 2" long as a hand held way of making the flame even smaller. Just slide it over the hole to adjust to your needs.

My discs are 3" diameter so they extend over the edge of the burner to protect it from heat radiating back from the pot bottom.

I'll try to get a thread started in the DIY forum today sometime or maybe tomorrow to explain some other aspects of the disc.

I'm sure lots of folks have purchased the plumbers version of the cloth to play around with. That product was introduced way back when by "skidsteer" stove maker extraordinaire.:)