Looking for feedback on my 3-season White Mountains gear list please!

[Fingers]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking to make the jump from day hikes to 2-3 backpacking trips in the Whites this spring. My baseweight is ~25lbs right now, but with my planned upgrades I could get it down to ~13lbs. I'm looking for feedback on my current set and help prioritizing my upgrades. Here's the list:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq1mOywGSFpIdGpGZ2xsMXZQSmU1ZE9fdkY5eUFIL Xc&usp=sharing

A few notes:

I'll be backpacking with my girlfriend and my 65lb husky. I don't feel comfortable sleeping with my dog under a tarp because he would run away during the night, and my GF is unwilling to deal with the condensation of a single-walled tent. My GF has hip problems, so I'll be carrying all of the gear in this list that could be shared.
I've spent a lot of time researching my upgrades, but please let me know if you think there's a better alternative for something I've listed.

[Tom Murphy]

This spring ? March is still winter, April is mud, snow melt and tough water crossings, in May?

You don't need a Bear Vault and a three person tent is a luxury when a two person tent will do.

Hike the AT thru CT and MA in the spring and save NH for late summer early fall.

[Undershaft]

March is full on winter. April is still full on winter. May is mud, rotten snow, and tough to dangerous water crossings. There will still be snow and ice on north facing slopes and shady spots into June. You didn't mention when you plan to go, but be aware that the White Mountains are a bit different weather wise than other sections of the trail. Since you live in N.H. you probably know this already, but be prepared for some miserable weather at elevation until later in the season. I don't have much experience with the specific gear you outlined, but I'll give you a couple ideas. If you are planning to stay at established campsites(liberty springs, ethan pond, nauman, etc.)you can ditch the bear vault. All of those sites have bear boxes to store your food in. They also have privies so you don't need the trowel. I wouldn't bother spending the money on a new stove just to save an ounce or two(same with the cookset). Keep the 20 degree bag even though it's heavier, I've had nights down to freezing in mid August in the Whites. If you can upgrade to just one down jacket instead of the two pullovers, you will save weight, space in your pack, and be just as warm. Are you planning on hiking in the wind pants? I would get some convertible pants and just zip the legs on when you get to a windy summit or above tree line. The new tent is half the weight, but is it freestanding? A lot of the sites have wooden platforms to put your tent on. A freestanding tent is much easier to put up on the platforms. Hope this helps a bit.

[Fingers]

This spring ? March is still winter, April is mud, snow melt and tough water crossings, in May?
You don't need a Bear Vault and a three person tent is a luxury when a two person tent will do.
Hike the AT thru CT and MA in the spring and save NH for late summer early fall.

I appreciate the reply, and I'll definitely look into CT and MA. My primary goal is to summit all of the NH 4000 footers, so I'd probably choose snowy day hiking in NH over clear backpacking trips in other New England states. It's good to know I don't need a bear keg, that's an easy 2.5 lbs right there. I've tried 2P tents, but they're just not big enough. My GF and I are both tall, and my dog likes to sprawl out when he sleeps.


March is full on winter. April is still full on winter. May is mud, rotten snow, and tough to dangerous water crossings. There will still be snow and ice on north facing slopes and shady spots into June. You didn't mention when you plan to go, but be aware that the White Mountains are a bit different weather wise than other sections of the trail. Since you live in N.H. you probably know this already, but be prepared for some miserable weather at elevation until later in the season. I don't have much experience with the specific gear you outlined, but I'll give you a couple ideas. If you are planning to stay at established campsites(liberty springs, ethan pond, nauman, etc.)you can ditch the bear vault. All of those sites have bear boxes to store your food in. They also have privies so you don't need the trowel. I wouldn't bother spending the money on a new stove just to save an ounce or two(same with the cookset). Keep the 20 degree bag even though it's heavier, I've had nights down to freezing in mid August in the Whites. If you can upgrade to just one down jacket instead of the two pullovers, you will save weight, space in your pack, and be just as warm. Are you planning on hiking in the wind pants? I would get some convertible pants and just zip the legs on when you get to a windy summit or above tree line. The new tent is half the weight, but is it freestanding? A lot of the sites have wooden platforms to put your tent on. A freestanding tent is much easier to put up on the platforms. Hope this helps a bit.
Thanks for the detailed reply! I need the trowel for my dog's poop, not mine. I'll definitely take your advice and prioritize the down jacket upgrade and hold off on the stove/cookset upgrade. The sleeping bag upgrade I listed is also available in a 20deg version for $20 more at 19.3oz, so I updated that on my spreadsheet. The upgrade tent is freestanding. With the wooden platforms, would it be safe to leave the footprint at home?

[4eyedbuzzard]

You won't need a trowel if you hike the northern NH mountains in winter/early spring. The ground is often frozen solid until May at higher elevations - then melts to mud. Above timberline, and in sensitive alpine areas, plastic bag your and your dog's poop (let it freeze a bit first if it's cold) and any paper and pack it out. This is standard alpine practice. Trowels (like especially $2 plastic ones) don't last long after the ground thaws either. There's a reason we are called the "The Granite State". Use your hiking poles if you carry them to dig cat holes or get a quality metal trowel if you are inclined to carry one.

A 20° bag isn't warm enough in April or early May in northern NH up in the mountains where you can still see temps well below zero at these time. Nor is a single ridgerest IMO - you'll need to two pads or an Exped downmat or similar.

You'll need a wind proof face mask/balaclava and goggles if you are above treeline in freezing weather. At minimum you'll also need a wind resistant warm hat and gloves pretty much any season in the Whites, even in summer.

A 13 oz pillow? Really? How about a flannel stuff sack with your extra socks and other unworn clothing in it?

If hiking in winter/early spring you may need to melt snow at times. The Haulite minimalist pot will definitely be too small to efficiently melt snow even for one person, and especially for two people AND your dog - you'll need a 1.5 to 2 liter pot. Even if you are hiking later, unless you cook individually, you'll likely want a pot more in the 1.2 to 1.5 liter range for 2 people. Remember to bring extra stove fuel.

Be prepared to carry your (and your dog's) drinking water inside your clothing if necessary to keep it from freezing if it is really cold. Platy's in a pack and especially hoses can freeze solid when the temps drop. They do sell platy insulation systems, and there are tricks like starting with warm water, routing the hose through/under your outer garments, and blowing in the hose it to purge water back to the bladder, but keeping water liquid all day long when hiking in low temps is a challenge sometimes.

If you hike in the Whites in winter/early spring you could need anything from snowshoes, traction aids (crampons), an ice ax, etc, and will have to know how to self-arrest. A course in basic glacier travel is highly recommended.

[Slo-go'en]

If your goal is to climb the 4000 footers, they can all be done as day hikes although some of them an overnighter can make things easier. If you limit your hiking to summer and fall, it will take less gear and be more enjoyable. I do like to hike in the winter, but I don't like to camp in the winter and I go someplace else to hike in the spring.

Also NH trails can be really hard on dogs, so keep that in mind. I've seen people trying to carry thier 65 pound dogs down from the summit since thier paws were so torn up and bloody they could no longer walk on thier own. Some trails are so steep getting a dog up (or down) them can be a real challenge. Ironically, small dogs do better then big ones.

[Fingers]

You won't need a trowel if you hike the northern NH mountains in winter/early spring. The ground is often frozen solid until May at higher elevations - then melts to mud. Above timberline, and in sensitive alpine areas, plastic bag your and your dog's poop (let it freeze a bit first if it's cold) and any paper and pack it out. This is standard alpine practice. Trowels (like especially $2 plastic ones) don't last long after the ground thaws either. There's a reason we are called the "The Granite State". Use your hiking poles if you carry them to dig cat holes or get a quality metal trowel if you are inclined to carry one.

A 20° bag isn't warm enough in April or early May in northern NH up in the mountains where you can still see temps well below zero at these time. Nor is a single ridgerest IMO - you'll need to two pads or an Exped downmat or similar.

You'll need a wind proof face mask/balaclava and goggles if you are above treeline in freezing weather. At minimum you'll also need a wind resistant warm hat and gloves pretty much any season in the Whites, even in summer.

A 13 oz pillow? Really? How about a flannel stuff sack with your extra socks and other unworn clothing in it?

If hiking in winter/early spring you may need to melt snow at times. The Haulite minimalist pot will definitely be too small to efficiently melt snow even for one person, and especially for two people AND your dog - you'll need a 1.5 to 2 liter pot. Even if you are hiking later, unless you cook individually, you'll likely want a pot more in the 1.2 to 1.5 liter range for 2 people. Remember to bring extra stove fuel.

Be prepared to carry your (and your dog's) drinking water inside your clothing if necessary to keep it from freezing if it is really cold. Platy's in a pack and especially hoses can freeze solid when the temps drop. They do sell platy insulation systems, and there are tricks like starting with warm water, routing the hose through/under your outer garments, and blowing in the hose it to purge water back to the bladder, but keeping water liquid all day long when hiking in low temps is a challenge sometimes.

If you hike in the Whites in winter/early spring you could need anything from snowshoes, traction aids (crampons), an ice ax, etc, and will have to know how to self-arrest. A course in basic glacier travel is highly recommended.

Thanks for taking the time to write all that, I really appreciate it. The scenarios you're describing don't really sound like fun to me, so I think I'll hold off on overnight backpacking trips until summer and stick to day hikes until then. I'm actually going up to the mountains this weekend for a couple of day hike and sleeping in the back of my SUV, so I'll test out the stuff sack pillow idea. You're right, my pillow is way too heavy.


If your goal is to climb the 4000 footers, they can all be done as day hikes although some of them an overnighter can make things easier. If you limit your hiking to summer and fall, it will take less gear and be more enjoyable. I do like to hike in the winter, but I don't like to camp in the winter and I go someplace else to hike in the spring.

Also NH trails can be really hard on dogs, so keep that in mind. I've seen people trying to carry thier 65 pound dogs down from the summit since thier paws were so torn up and bloody they could no longer walk on thier own. Some trails are so steep getting a dog up (or down) them can be a real challenge. Ironically, small dogs do better then big ones.

We've reached 13 peaks so far, all on day hikes. There are some routes (Presidential Traverse, Garfield/Galehead/Twins, etc.) That just make a lot more sense to do as an overnight trip rather than day hike each peak individually. We use Musher's Secret was on our dog's paws and he hasn't had any problems so far. I'll probably end up doing what you suggested--day hikes until summer then start camping in summer. Thanks!

[Feral Bill]

Two seasons in the Whites, winter and July. The can be hard to tell apart.

[Undershaft]

If your priority is completing the 4k list, Slo-go'en is right; most can be done easily as day hikes. Day hiking in winter/spring is also a lot easier and less complicated than doing overnights. As for the tent footprint I wouldn't bring it if you're setting up on a tent platform. Quite a few of the 4k's can be done together in a single day hike, especially in the fair weather months(July, August, September). North and South Kinsman, Lincoln/Lafayette, Liberty/Flume, Tom/Field/Willey, North/South Hancock, Osceola/East Osceola, North/Middle Tripyramid, and more. Just looking at the maps will show you many peaks that are close together and doable in a day without too much effort. Some peaks can be strung together as a comfortable one or two night trip using the AMC campsites as a base. I hiked the southern presidentials all in one day using the Nauman tentsite as a basecamp. Its nice to hike all day without the weight of overnight gear, but not having to worry about hiking the extra miles back to the car in the evening. Owl's Head and the Twins/Bonds/Zealand are probably best done as overnight hikes unless you want to do long, tough 20+ mile days. I'm slowly working on the 4K list myself. I'm up to 22 of the 48. Which mountains have you done so far? If you have any specific questions about peaks or trails I'd be happy to help if I can. Also check out Views From The Top (www.vftt.org) if you haven't already. There are a lot of experienced White Mtn. hikers on that forum and tons of great discussion and information specific to the Whites and the 4K's.

[magneto]

Here is what the Appalachian Mountain Club thinks you need for 3-season hikes in the Whites. I can personally confirm the need for hat and gloves, even in July.

http://www.outdoors.org/recreation/hiking/hiking-gear.cfm

Be sure to wear or bring the following:

Synthetic or wool base layer – t-shirt, or underwear tops and bottoms
Synthetic or wool long pants – zip off pants and convert to shorts are popular during warm weather months
Wool sweater or synthetic pile jacket
Hat
Gloves or mittens
Bandanna or handkerchief
Wind and rain gear – waterproof/breathable fabrics recommended
Extra socks (a welcome treat for the feet at mid-hike, or if you inadvertently step in a stream. They also double as mittens)
Sturdy boots (a must)

Food and Gear Checklist

First-aid kit
Waterproof matches
Whistle Knife
Guidebook, trail map, and compass
High-energy food and snacks
Two to four quarts (per person) of water and/or treatment system if near water. Tips on water treatment >> (http://www.outdoors.org/publications/outdoors/2006/waterfiltration.cfm)
Flashlight or headlamp with fresh batteries
Sunscreen Insect repellent. Tips on insect repellent >> (http://www.outdoors.org/publications/outdoors/2006/insectrepellents.cfm)
Plastic trash bags serve many functions:


Use them as pack liners to keep your gear dry, for carrying out trash, as a makeshift rain poncho, or to fashion an emergency bivouac sac (pull one on like pants; pull the other on like a shirt and cut a hole for your face so you can breathe).


Consider carrying a sleeping bag in case you are forced to sleep out overnight.


If you're traveling in a group, carry at least one sleeping bag. It is an emergency tool that can keep an injured hiker warm until help arrives. Hypothermia is more of a threat when you sit immobilized because of injury.

[Fingers]

If your priority is completing the 4k list, Slo-go'en is right; most can be done easily as day hikes. Day hiking in winter/spring is also a lot easier and less complicated than doing overnights. As for the tent footprint I wouldn't bring it if you're setting up on a tent platform. Quite a few of the 4k's can be done together in a single day hike, especially in the fair weather months(July, August, September). North and South Kinsman, Lincoln/Lafayette, Liberty/Flume, Tom/Field/Willey, North/South Hancock, Osceola/East Osceola, North/Middle Tripyramid, and more. Just looking at the maps will show you many peaks that are close together and doable in a day without too much effort. Some peaks can be strung together as a comfortable one or two night trip using the AMC campsites as a base. I hiked the southern presidentials all in one day using the Nauman tentsite as a basecamp. Its nice to hike all day without the weight of overnight gear, but not having to worry about hiking the extra miles back to the car in the evening. Owl's Head and the Twins/Bonds/Zealand are probably best done as overnight hikes unless you want to do long, tough 20+ mile days. I'm slowly working on the 4K list myself. I'm up to 22 of the 48. Which mountains have you done so far? If you have any specific questions about peaks or trails I'd be happy to help if I can. Also check out Views From The Top (www.vftt.org (http://www.vftt.org)) if you haven't already. There are a lot of experienced White Mtn. hikers on that forum and tons of great discussion and information specific to the Whites and the 4K's.

I'll definitely check out that other forum, thanks! I just started at the end of this past August, and I'm up to 12/48. I did Lincoln/Lafayette, Jackson, Washington, and Osceola/East Osceola in the fall. So far this winter, I've done Moosilauke, Wildcat D, Tom/Field/Wiley, and Hancock/South Hancock. I'm mostly interested in backpacking the Presidential Traverse, and Owl's Head/the Bonds like you said. I can't use the AMC huts because of my dog, which is why I'm trying to assemble a decent backpacking gear list.