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nu2hike
01-23-2014, 13:24
I understand you must reserve space at the shelters. What if you get to a shelter you have a reservation for and find it full? What would be the correct way to handle this situation?

Don H
01-23-2014, 13:38
Ask if anyone wants to sleep in thier tent. Lots of people would rather do that.
Or ask everyone to move over, sleeping 15 or more in a shelter for 12 is not unusual, especially during bad weather.

max patch
01-23-2014, 13:41
I'd say a prayer of thanks and happily pitch my tent in site of the shelter.

I imagine if you announce that you have a reservation and you'd like to use it the offending person will move. If not, then I bet everyone that does have a valid permit will show theirs and peer pressure will drive the offending person out. Thats my best guess.

max patch
01-23-2014, 13:47
Ask if anyone wants to sleep in thier tent. Lots of people would rather do that.

Thats good, I like that as a first step even better than my suggestions.




Or ask everyone to move over, sleeping 15 or more in a shelter for 12 is not unusual, especially during bad weather.

I hate the GSMNP and haven't been back since my thru. Someone posted that they now have raised wooden dividers between spaces that would make this impossible. Don't know if that is true or not.

max patch
01-23-2014, 13:48
Thats good, I like that as a first step even better than my suggestions.


Except, of course, taking the opportunity to sleep in a tent myself.

sliderule
01-23-2014, 14:24
I understand you must reserve space at the shelters. What if you get to a shelter you have a reservation for and find it full? What would be the correct way to handle this situation?

Direct confrontation, command voice. Talk to them like you are in charge.

Works for me every time. Haven't had to hurt anyone yet. Without fail, a few folks have come to a sudden realization that there is somewhere else that they need to be.

RED-DOG
01-23-2014, 16:04
Just sleep in your tent, to me asking some one to move over or move out is very rude.

max patch
01-23-2014, 16:07
Just sleep in your tent, to me asking some one to move over or move out is very rude.

Not rude at all considering that you are required to have a permit to be in the shelter in the first place.

Seatbelt
01-23-2014, 16:14
Most of the shelters have extra floor space in front of the actual board platforms that allows for an extra person or two, also the shelters that I have seen in the smokies are plenty large enough for several extra people on the platforms as well.

Dogwood
01-23-2014, 16:38
I'd say a prayer of thanks and happily pitch my tent in site of the shelter.

I imagine if you announce that you have a reservation and you'd like to use it the offending person will move. If not, then I bet everyone that does have a valid permit will show theirs and peer pressure will drive the offending person out. Thats my best guess.

LOL, Yup. I'm ready for a confronting of illegals in a lean to anytime. That's why I bring hiker lynching cord with me when I go through GSMNP on the AT in April.

Dogwood
01-23-2014, 16:41
Direct confrontation, command voice. Talk to them like you are in charge.

Works for me every time. Haven't had to hurt anyone yet. Without fail, a few folks have come to a sudden realization that there is somewhere else that they need to be.

LOL, then you'd probably go on a rant about the reservations system and that you laid out $10 bucks to hike GSMNP. Then, we'd all have to hear about the good ol days. :D

aficion
01-23-2014, 17:07
In the good old days peaople lived in the park. Now they need a permit to visit their dead.

TNhiker
01-23-2014, 17:10
Now they need a permit to visit their dead.



nope.....that is false statement.....

in fact, the park runs free shuttles to a bunch of the cemeteries...........

Slo-go'en
01-23-2014, 17:10
Someone posted that they now have raised wooden dividers between spaces that would make this impossible. Don't know if that is true or not.

No, there used to be dividers but they were taken out years ago. Some shelters had bunks made out of layers and layers of chicken wire and took out many an air mattress.

TNhiker
01-23-2014, 17:54
its been a while since ive been in a shelter in the park, but some of the dividers were still in place............

and yes, the chicken wire bunks are long gone, replaced by wooden boards.....

since they have redone all of the shelters, i think in that process some of the dividers got torn out, but i think there are a few shelters that still have em.....

Different Socks
01-23-2014, 18:56
Not rude at all considering that you are required to have a permit to be in the shelter in the first place.

AGREE!! If the new rules state you must have a permit, then simply state that you have one and ask that everyone make sure they have one. It is not rude for you to ask the rule breaker to leave or to sleep in their tent, they brought it on themselves. If you accept that they have taken all the space available and they are not supposed to be there, they are forcing the option on you to tent.

gollwoods
01-23-2014, 20:42
non thru hikers with permits are not required to leave the shelter but if they show up and it is full a thru hiker must leave. last time I read it which was a year or more ago.

hikerboy57
01-23-2014, 20:44
pitch a tent.

kayak karl
01-23-2014, 20:54
pitch a tent. they would rather pitch a fit :)

brancher
01-23-2014, 21:23
I don't get this thread at all. (but then again, I'm a hammocker).

scope
01-23-2014, 21:34
I don't get this thread at all. (but then again, I'm a hammocker).

Then the first part of post #3 applies to you, except hang in site of the shelter instead of pitch.

wornoutboots
01-24-2014, 02:30
Those shelters could sleep 20 if needed, room wont be a problem

garlic08
01-24-2014, 10:06
I only had to stay in one GSMNP shelter on my thru hike. The rest, thankfully, were full. This allowed me to legally pitch my tent outside and get a much better sleep, even in the snow.

Pedaling Fool
01-24-2014, 10:24
I pitch a tent every morning...


#Am I Creepy:confused:

HooKooDooKu
01-24-2014, 10:48
Those shelters could sleep 20 if needed, room wont be a problem
Not in all shelters, not if you're talking about sleeping on the platforms...

As previously stated, some shelters still have 1x2s running the full depth of the sleeping areas to divide the platform into the separate spots. If the shelter is arranged that way, squeezing in extra people means someone is sleeping on top of a 1x2.

I can personally confirm that I've seen it both ways. I've never stayed in a GSMNP shelter until last year. Since that time, I've stayed in 4 of the dozen shelters. I can distinctly recall a couple staying at Mollies Ridge where they were turned 90 degrees to everyone else (the husband slept towards the outside, the wife toward the inside). So I know not every shelter has the 1x2 dividers in every shelter. But GSMNP is the only place I've ever stayed in a shelter, and in the last two years, I know I've slept between two 1x2 dividers.

I'm not totally sure, but it might be that it is more common to find the dividers on the lower bunks (where you slide directly into your spot from the front of the platform) and that upper bunks are more likely to have the dividers removed (because some people can only access the upper bunks by climbing the ladder located in the middle of the platform, and then have to crawl along the platform to get to their sleeping spot).

Different Socks
01-24-2014, 11:16
So if I understand this correctly, regardless if you are tenting or using the shelter, you must have a permit to be there for the night?

illabelle
01-24-2014, 11:26
So if I understand this correctly, regardless if you are tenting or using the shelter, you must have a permit to be there for the night?

Yes, that applies to everyone, whether tent, shelter, or hammock. Unless you meet the park's definition of the thru-hiker, you must have a reservation for each shelter and a permit. You'll need to keep a printed copy with you. And in case you didn't know, there is a fee - new last year.

Seatbelt
01-24-2014, 12:07
Not in all shelters, not if you're talking about sleeping on the platforms...

As previously stated, some shelters still have 1x2s running the full depth of the sleeping areas to divide the platform into the separate spots. If the shelter is arranged that way, squeezing in extra people means someone is sleeping on top of a 1x2.

I can personally confirm that I've seen it both ways. I've never stayed in a GSMNP shelter until last year. Since that time, I've stayed in 4 of the dozen shelters. I can distinctly recall a couple staying at Mollies Ridge where they were turned 90 degrees to everyone else (the husband slept towards the outside, the wife toward the inside). So I know not every shelter has the 1x2 dividers in every shelter. But GSMNP is the only place I've ever stayed in a shelter, and in the last two years, I know I've slept between two 1x2 dividers.

I'm not totally sure, but it might be that it is more common to find the dividers on the lower bunks (where you slide directly into your spot from the front of the platform) and that upper bunks are more likely to have the dividers removed (because some people can only access the upper bunks by climbing the ladder located in the middle of the platform, and then have to crawl along the platform to get to their sleeping spot).

I just went thru the smokies 3 weeks ago and didn't notice any of the dividers, but I didn't stop in every single shelter to look around. The only shelter I remember seeing the dividers was in Bald Mtn shelter.

HooKooDooKu
01-24-2014, 12:39
So if I understand this correctly, regardless if you are tenting or using the shelter, you must have a permit to be there for the night?

To camp anywhere in the GSMNP back country, you have to have a permit. That's always been the rule.

But the rules for obtaining permits changed in four fundamental ways last year:
1. You can no longer just show up, fill out a permit, and head into the back country.
Instead, you must now obtain a permit ahead of time using the online system.
2. You must now pay for your permit.
3. All camp sites are now rationed campsites. (in this context, a shelter is still a 'camp site')
4. You get reservations for rationed campsites with the online system rather than calling the back country office.

With both the old and new systems, thru-hikers do not have to get reservations for rationed campsites along the AT. Instead, 4 spots are reserved at each camp site along the AT for thru hikers. If a thru hiker encounters a full shelter, he is allowed to tent in site of the shelter.

In a nut-shell, that's the permit system of the GSMNP.

daddytwosticks
01-24-2014, 16:13
I just went thru the smokies 3 weeks ago and didn't notice any of the dividers, but I didn't stop in every single shelter to look around. The only shelter I remember seeing the dividers was in Bald Mtn shelter. Stayed at Derrick and Mollies this past Labor Day weekend. I can confirm that one of them had the aforementioned dividers. :)

Seatbelt
01-24-2014, 16:20
Stayed at Derrick and Mollies this past Labor Day weekend. I can confirm that one of them had the aforementioned dividers. :)

I know for sure that Derrick does not have them--Mollies might still tho, I just stopped for a quick break there and others were still occupying inside. I do know that Mollies used to have them years ago,so you're probably right that they are still there.

Drybones
01-24-2014, 19:54
I hate the GSMNP and haven't been back since my thru. Someone posted that they now have raised wooden dividers between spaces that would make this impossible. Don't know if that is true or not.

I agree, doubt I'll ever go back to GSMNP.

rocketsocks
01-24-2014, 20:41
I understand you must reserve space at the shelters. What if you get to a shelter you have a reservation for and find it full? What would be the correct way to handle this situation?Assuming the Park system does not over book...I'd simply ask who does not have a permit for the shelter, and then tell em to "get to steppin" ;)

but seriously...I'd have a tent anyway, not a big deal really in the big scheme of things :)

hikerboy57
01-24-2014, 21:11
i didnt need to stay at a single shelter throughout the smokies last year. always made sure i got there late enough to tent.
is there a reason the op would prefer to shelter than tent?

max patch
01-24-2014, 21:20
is there a reason the op would prefer to shelter than tent?

Re shelters, I think what is said on WB is not actually happens in the woods.

MuddyWaters
01-24-2014, 21:20
Unless it raining, just embrace the opportunity to tent, and be glad fortune smiled upon you.

And dont ever be an A-hole. How well will you really sleep if you piss off someone there?

hikerboy57
01-24-2014, 21:44
Re shelters, I think what is said on WB is not actually happens in the woods.:) .

rocketsocks
01-24-2014, 23:11
Unless it raining, just embrace the opportunity to tent, and be glad fortune smiled upon you.

And dont ever be an A-hole. How well will you really sleep if you piss off someone there?
Yep...so not worth the grief, one might even say "ya know what buddy, I want you to have my spot tonight, think I'm gonna sleep out under the stars" :sun everybody wins!

nu2hike
01-25-2014, 01:15
I would prefer not to sleep in a shelter. I have a phobia of having mice crawling over me. I plan to carry a bivy and tarp. That way I can use the bivy in the shelter to keep the mice away (as suggested by someone on WB) or camp if the occasion arises!

Foresight
01-25-2014, 01:28
I pitch a tent every morning...


#Am I Creepy:confused:

3 days ago I would have said no.....now? you're an axe murderer looking to perpetrate.

They should call in a submarine berthing designer to redo the shelters then they'd sleep 42.

George
01-25-2014, 03:45
this thread brings to mind an interesting question - lets say you are not on a thru permit and have reservations, come in at a reasonable hour to find a full house, inquire to the occupants that you are required to stay in the shelter but no one leaves, so you tent at the site - at first light the ranger is there with his ticket book - after explanation, do you think you get fined?

aficion
01-25-2014, 04:28
this thread brings to mind an interesting question - lets say you are not on a thru permit and have reservations, come in at a reasonable hour to find a full house, inquire to the occupants that you are required to stay in the shelter but no one leaves, so you tent at the site - at first light the ranger is there with his ticket book - after explanation, do you think you get fined?

No, not at first light
If the shelter is in sight
and is still packed tight:)

Firefighter503
01-25-2014, 11:25
I'd gladly set my tent up and sleep outside. Never pass up the chance to earn some variation of "Bearfighter" as a trail name.





Just kidding. I didn't see a single bear in GSMNP when I was there. :(

nu2hike
01-25-2014, 12:13
"this thread brings to mind an interesting question - lets say you are not on a thru permit and have reservations, come in at a reasonable hour to find a full house, inquire to the occupants that you are required to stay in the shelter but no one leaves, so you tent at the site - at first light the ranger is there with his ticket book - after explanation, do you think you get fined?"
I was wondering the same thing! So maybe it's not exactly the crack of dawn but the above scenario occurs. What would happen then?

Son Driven
01-25-2014, 12:33
Depends on the weather, in 2013 no one had the courage to say "I have a reservation, you need to go out and pitch your tent" we all just kept making space, and ended up feeling like a sardine in a can. It would be much easier if the park allowed hikers the option of setting up tents & hammocks earlier in the day, while there is still day light rather then subject to them being thrown out by someone who comes in late with a reservation. Made to make camp in the dark, with freezing temps, and blowing snow.

HooKooDooKu
01-25-2014, 14:46
this thread brings to mind an interesting question - lets say you are not on a thru permit and have reservations, come in at a reasonable hour to find a full house, inquire to the occupants that you are required to stay in the shelter but no one leaves, so you tent at the site - at first light the ranger is there with his ticket book - after explanation, do you think you get fined?
From everything I've read and experienced, GSMNP Rangers are extremely reasonable. Therefore, as long as you speak in a truthful and respectful manner in explaining the situation, you have 0% chance of getting fined. Besides, there are enough people flagrantly violating rules (taking pets in the back country, camping without permits, feeding wildlife, etc) that Rangers have better things to deal with than your choices on how to deal with a full shelter.

Otherwise, my take on the etiquette of dealing with a full shelter is that I'm always going to show up at a shelter with backup plans (i.e. tent or tarp that would allow me to simply sleep outside the shelter).

sliderule
01-25-2014, 21:26
...to me asking some one to move over or move out is very rude.

"Asking" might leave the impression that compliance is optional. Don't ask.

scope
01-27-2014, 15:29
3 days ago I would have said no.....now? you're an axe murderer looking to perpetrate.

They should call in a submarine berthing designer to redo the shelters then they'd sleep 42.

Yeah, then they'd be designed with hammock bunks!

RockDoc
01-27-2014, 18:02
GSMNP shelters and camping is the wild west…
When we got to Mollies Ridge shelter there were few people in it, but newcomers kept putting up tents around the shelter. Before long there were 20 tents up and only 4 people in the shelter. So there were about 50 people milling around the shelter but only 4 were sleeping in the shelter. It seemed a little odd to me...
My understanding was that you could not tent until the shelter had filled. Perhaps my understanding is incorrect?

hikerboy57
01-27-2014, 18:09
GSMNP shelters and camping is the wild west…
When we got to Mollies Ridge shelter there were few people in it, but newcomers kept putting up tents around the shelter. Before long there were 20 tents up and only 4 people in the shelter. So there were about 50 people milling around the shelter but only 4 were sleeping in the shelter. It seemed a little odd to me...
My understanding was that you could not tent until the shelter had filled. Perhaps my understanding is incorrect?
your understanding is correct.
"anything the ref dont see is legal"
by that i mean if a ranger showed up , those tenters could and probably would be fined.

George
01-28-2014, 02:59
GSMNP shelters and camping is the wild west…
When we got to Mollies Ridge shelter there were few people in it, but newcomers kept putting up tents around the shelter. Before long there were 20 tents up and only 4 people in the shelter. So there were about 50 people milling around the shelter but only 4 were sleeping in the shelter. It seemed a little odd to me...
My understanding was that you could not tent until the shelter had filled. Perhaps my understanding is incorrect?

kind of an interesting take on it - 8 empty spots in the shelter could generate thousands in revenue

daddytwosticks
01-28-2014, 08:18
GSMNP shelters and camping is the wild west…
When we got to Mollies Ridge shelter there were few people in it, but newcomers kept putting up tents around the shelter. Before long there were 20 tents up and only 4 people in the shelter. So there were about 50 people milling around the shelter but only 4 were sleeping in the shelter. It seemed a little odd to me...
My understanding was that you could not tent until the shelter had filled. Perhaps my understanding is incorrect? This is exactly what happened to me during my 2013 Labor Day Weekend hike. It was just me and about 4 other hikers in the shelter. About 8 large tents were set up. I was wondering if it was my odor or my gas issues? Maybe I looked creepy? :)

aficion
01-28-2014, 09:15
This is exactly what happened to me during my 2013 Labor Day Weekend hike. It was just me and about 4 other hikers in the shelter. About 8 large tents were set up. I was wondering if it was my odor or my gas issues? Maybe I looked creepy? :)

Whatever goes on in those large tents must be worth the risk of a fine.

Hill Ape
01-29-2014, 02:15
Direct confrontation, command voice. Talk to them like you are in charge.

Works for me every time. Haven't had to hurt anyone yet. Without fail, a few folks have come to a sudden realization that there is somewhere else that they need to be.


only you aren't in charge, and have no color of authority. so my hypothetical question to you would be "OR WHAT?" cause i'm one of those guys that don't like people exercising authority they are not sworn to hold. you can ask to see my permit, you can't demand to. i can refuse, and roll over and go back to sleep. just how far are you harsh words willing to escalate this confrontation?

i need to be, where ever i choose to be, and i don't answer to you about any of that

Hill Ape
01-29-2014, 02:29
and do you really foresee an outcome where you would resort to hurting someone?! seriously please say you're joking.

wow, just wow

scope
01-31-2014, 00:31
Direct confrontation, command voice. Talk to them like you are in charge.

Works for me every time. Haven't had to hurt anyone yet. Without fail, a few folks have come to a sudden realization that there is somewhere else that they need to be.

Yeah, guess you haven't come across that one that happens to suddenly realize there is somewhere else you need to be.

I assume your response is actually dry humor, but I think it best to be a little less dry, you know, for the noobs.

Last Call
01-31-2014, 01:11
Rejoice in your good fortune.

JumpMaster Blaster
04-03-2014, 05:50
I would prefer not to sleep in a shelter. I have a phobia of having mice crawling over me. I plan to carry a bivy and tarp. That way I can use the bivy in the shelter to keep the mice away (as suggested by someone on WB) or camp if the occasion arises!
That's not a phobia. I have a sincere DISGUST towards any animal crawling on me, except dog. Blech! To me, tenting is PREFERRED.

Grampie
04-03-2014, 09:41
During my thru I was at Cosby Knob Shelter. The shelter was full soI had set up my tent nearby. At dusk when all the hikers were turning in for the day three hikers approached the full shelter and announced, "we have permits for the shelter." Know one from the shelter answered them. They repeated that they had shelter permits. They then said that they didn't bring tents because they had planned to sleep in the shelter. They just finally moved on. Knowone was about to leave the shelter to make room for the three.

Gambit McCrae
04-10-2014, 11:06
thats good, i like that as a first step even better than my suggestions.




I hate the gsmnp and haven't been back since my thru. Someone posted that they now have raised wooden dividers between spaces that would make this impossible. Don't know if that is true or not.


yep this is true

Berry Belle
04-17-2014, 07:13
I'm planning a section in the Smokies this year. The shelter regulations say that holders of shelter reservations must sleep in the shelter and are not permitted to tent. I would much rather tent (or actually, tarp) and am sincerely hoping the shelter Nazis aren't checking reservations to force me to take someone's chosen spot on that hard wood floor.

HooKooDooKu
04-17-2014, 09:26
I'm planning a section in the Smokies this year. The shelter regulations say that holders of shelter reservations must sleep in the shelter and are not permitted to tent. I would much rather tent (or actually, tarp) and am sincerely hoping the shelter Nazis aren't checking reservations to force me to take someone's chosen spot on that hard wood floor.
If you are section hiking, then you will need a general permit and not a thru permit (thru permits are only for AT hikers that are starting and ending their current hike at least 50 miles past the borders of GSMNP).

With a general permit, you will need to obtain a reservation for each shelter you plan to stay at, and that means a spot on that hard wood floor SHOULD be reserved for you.

So if everyone plays by the rules, your only LEGAL option will be to sleep in the shelter.

But obviously, parts of this thread have been discussing what to do when everyone else isn't playing by the rules.

harmonjazzman
04-17-2014, 10:23
During my thru I was at Cosby Knob Shelter. The shelter was full soI had set up my tent nearby. At dusk when all the hikers were turning in for the day three hikers approached the full shelter and announced, "we have permits for the shelter." Know one from the shelter answered them. They repeated that they had shelter permits. They then said that they didn't bring tents because they had planned to sleep in the shelter. They just finally moved on. Knowone was about to leave the shelter to make room for the three.

While these sectioners probably should've been better prepared, that was rude of the thrus to not offer them shelter space. My gf and I recently did a section of GSMNP and all the thrus we met were very kind and giving. We never would've asked them to leave a shelter, but I'd imagine if someone came in with no other form of shelter, they would've gladly made room or given up their space. We all have to look out for each other. Karma is nice and all, but a good deed is its own reward.

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MTn music
04-17-2014, 13:30
I'd gladly pitch my tent if it was me. I'm much more comfortable in that. Considering you had to make a reservation though, you may not have brought your tent. In that case, you'll have to say something, or be left outside to fend for yourself.

Grampie
04-17-2014, 14:37
If you are section hiking, then you will need a general permit and not a thru permit (thru permits are only for AT hikers that are starting and ending their current hike at least 50 miles past the borders of GSMNP).

With a general permit, you will need to obtain a reservation for each shelter you plan to stay at, and that means a spot on that hard wood floor SHOULD be reserved for you.

So if everyone plays by the rules, your only LEGAL option will be to sleep in the shelter.

But obviously, parts of this thread have been discussing what to do when everyone else isn't playing by the rules.

There are plenty of thru-hikers who don't play by the rules.

squeezebox
04-17-2014, 18:11
Yea really, don't "the rules" require a thru hiker to give shelter space to a permit holding section hiker.
Gosh just play by the rules and everybody should be happy.

ChuckT
04-17-2014, 19:16
What would a true census of hikers camping in GSMNP show? Specifically how many are walk-ins that _never_ got a prrmit. I know I met a few when I hiked thru solo.
I went to all the trouble to get a permit and meeting somebody that knew about the permit but didn't bother ...

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July
04-17-2014, 20:25
Coming thru two years ago, we arrived at a shelter kinda early @4pm. We found a single guy there with his hammock hung inside across the floor. He promptly informed us that he had "reservations" and this was "his" shelter for the night. We explained to him that the shelter had reservations for each spot, he was very surprised that by around 7 pm the shelter was PACKED with dirty stinky hikers!:-)

sliderule
04-17-2014, 22:42
While these sectioners probably should've been better prepared...

You are right. But carrying firearms in the backcountry isn't legal.

squeezebox
04-18-2014, 00:25
I can see why the AT has more than it's share of sociopaths, the guy with the hammock taking the entire shelter, dogs off leash, gun toters etc.
these people can not, or refuse to fit into normal society so they escape to the AT and we are stuck with their neurotic behavior.

Hoofit
04-18-2014, 07:57
they would rather pitch a fit :)
Ha!
sure seems like it !
truth is, if it's a beautiful night, most of us would rather pitch a tent...
But if the rain is pouring down, I might well want my shelter space if I'd planned for it...

TNhiker
04-18-2014, 10:35
But carrying firearms in the backcountry isn't legal.



carrying guns in the backcountry is legal....

they changed this a few years ago....

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm

BZ853
04-18-2014, 12:23
gun toters

What is wrong with someone exercising a constitutional right and doing so safely?

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Mags
04-18-2014, 14:52
No gun discussion every goes well on hiking forums. Plenty of places to argue 2nd amendment rights elsewhere. :)
http://www.reddit.com/r/firearms

Thanks!

ps. esp considering this question was about shelter space!!!

DavidNH
04-18-2014, 19:54
If you have a reservation to sleep in a shelter and you are at the right shelter on the right date.. you have space. If not, people have to make you space in the shelter. period.

Grampie
04-19-2014, 10:18
If you have a reservation to sleep in a shelter and you are at the right shelter on the right date.. you have space. If not, people have to make you space in the shelter. period.

IN thory you are right. With no one there to inforce, it just doesn't happen.

ChuckT
04-23-2014, 14:37
As a society we are sometime wusses. Is you are in the GSMNP and your permit is in order you should not _have_ to demand your "rights" you should just move in and take a space. The offending hiker should move out. Easier said than done though

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Old Hiker
04-23-2014, 14:54
I can see why the AT has more than it's share of sociopaths, the guy with the hammock taking the entire shelter, dogs off leash, gun toters etc.
these people can not, or refuse to fit into normal society so they escape to the AT and we are stuck with their neurotic behavior.

Sociopath: a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial (http://www.whiteblaze.net/browse/antisocial), often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

Not sure that definition applies to the vast majority of hikers, esp. gun or dog owners, despite the behaviors. Maybe "quirky" may be a better fit.

As for the reservations, in 2012, I don't remember ANYONE asking or telling they had one. If the shelter was full, I/we tented. If it was half-full of females, I tented. Ridge runner stated I probably wouldn't have problems with any Rangers.

flemdawg1
04-23-2014, 15:16
As a society we are sometime wusses. Is you are in the GSMNP and your permit is in order you should not _have_ to demand your "rights" you should just move in and take a space. The offending hiker should move out. Easier said than done though

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How do you propose that one "take a space" and how do you determine who should move out?

Standing outside a shelter acting like a spoiled child and demanding to see everyone's permits and reservation receipts isn't going to work.

The only real choice is setup the tent you brought (and if confronted by a ranger, explain your situation) or keep walking.

tim.hiker
04-10-2015, 13:07
I didn't think you was allowed to set a tent up close to a shelter , tough call on asking people to leave but that is why there are rules... I much rather pitch a tent any day some hikers don't bath.. lol or it might be myself

MuddyWaters
04-10-2015, 16:31
I didn't think you was allowed to set a tent up close to a shelter , tough call on asking people to leave but that is why there are rules... I much rather pitch a tent any day some hikers don't bath.. lol or it might be myself

If someone shows up at 9pm at night when people are already going to sleep, or especially if its late AND raining, even if they have a reservation, they will be a first class tool if expect anyone to move for them. If you have a reservation, you really have an obligation to be there early enough that you dont affect others adversely. Others are required to stay in shelter if its not full, its not their option. Asking someone to get up and go set up in dark, or in rain, because you couldnt get there, is affecting others.

Id personally like to see GSMNP put a time in the regs, by which the reservation person forfeits their reservation right to sleep in shelter if they arent there. It would solve some issues. Maybe keep some idiots that dont carry shelter from doing that too.

swjohnsey
04-10-2015, 16:55
Don't worry about it, there is no one out there to enforce regulations.

HooKooDooKu
04-10-2015, 17:05
I didn't think you was allowed to set a tent up close to a shelter , tough call on asking people to leave but that is why there are rules... I much rather pitch a tent any day some hikers don't bath.. lol or it might be myself

Thru-hikers on a thru-hiker permit do not have reserved spots in the shelters. Instead, a certain number of spots are set aside for thru-hikers. Of course from time to time, a shelter will be full and there will be more thru hikers than spots set aside.

So the rules are that Thru hikers may setup a tent in the general vicinity of the shelter if the shelter is full.

HooKooDooKu
04-10-2015, 17:07
Don't worry about it, there is no one out there to enforce regulations.
Until there is...

If you want to play the odds, you're most likely right. But there are some back country rangers out there enforcing the regulations... maybe not many (and therefore most people won't see them) but they are there.

peakbagger
04-10-2015, 17:17
There is a shelter just north of Clingmans dome is fairly easy to get to from the road and when I hiked through in 2004, the shelter got frequent visits from rangers checking tags. On the rest of my trip I didn't see any park personnel except for a hog hunter

BillyGr
04-10-2015, 19:46
If someone shows up at 9pm at night when people are already going to sleep, or especially if its late AND raining, even if they have a reservation, they will be a first class tool if expect anyone to move for them. If you have a reservation, you really have an obligation to be there early enough that you dont affect others adversely. Others are required to stay in shelter if its not full, its not their option. Asking someone to get up and go set up in dark, or in rain, because you couldnt get there, is affecting others.

Id personally like to see GSMNP put a time in the regs, by which the reservation person forfeits their reservation right to sleep in shelter if they arent there. It would solve some issues. Maybe keep some idiots that dont carry shelter from doing that too.

But if it's a time when it doesn't get dark until 9 (or so), why would anyone be surprised that someone might be coming in at that time?

Theosus
05-18-2015, 17:41
Thru-hikers on a thru-hiker permit do not have reserved spots in the shelters. Instead, a certain number of spots are set aside for thru-hikers. Of course from time to time, a shelter will be full and there will be more thru hikers than spots set aside.

So the rules are that Thru hikers may setup a tent in the general vicinity of the shelter if the shelter is full.

Do you have to stay at the shelters at all? What if you are between shelters? Not close by but say three miles from the closest one? Can you just pick a spot somewhere? What about hammocks, are there different rules since they don't mash down vegetation and such?

TNhiker
05-18-2015, 17:43
yes....you have to stay at the shelters....

plan accordingly...

and no hanging of hammocks at the shelters....

HooKooDooKu
05-18-2015, 18:07
Do you have to stay at the shelters at all? What if you are between shelters? Not close by but say three miles from the closest one? Can you just pick a spot somewhere? What about hammocks, are there different rules since they don't mash down vegetation and such?
1. Unlike most places along the AT, the GSMNP requires that you only camp at designated campsites or shelters.
2. GSMNP rules specifically states that all rules that apply to tents apply to hammocks. After all, you still mash down the vegetation getting in and out of your hammock.
3. GSMNP rules specifically forbids hammocks from being attached to any shelter or other building. So don't plan to hang your hammock inside the shelter.
4. GSMNP rules do not allow for tents (nor hammocks) to be setup at shelters unless you are hiking on a Thru-hiker permit AND the shelter is full.

So the only place a Thru-hiker is going to be hanging a hammock in GSMNP is "in the general vicinity" of a full shelter. Otherwise, you'll be sleeping on the platforms in the shelter.

Theosus
05-18-2015, 20:24
So the best advice is to get to the shelter really late during a busy season and say "well darn I guess I have to hang over here across from the shelter?"

bemental
05-18-2015, 20:37
So the best advice is to get to the shelter really late during a busy season and say "well darn I guess I have to hang over here across from the shelter?"

+1 .

TNhiker
05-18-2015, 21:11
No---the best advice is to follow the damn rules....

all the people who didn't follow the rules in the past have led to harsher rules.....

bemental
05-18-2015, 21:18
No---the best advice is to follow the damn rules....

all the people who didn't follow the rules in the past have led to harsher rules.....

Is arriving late against the rules? Must have missed that one.

TNhiker
05-18-2015, 22:20
it's toeing the line and you know it...

its a way of avoiding following the rules.....

bemental
05-19-2015, 05:32
4. GSMNP rules do not allow for tents (nor hammocks) to be setup at shelters unless you are hiking on a Thru-hiker permit AND the shelter is full.

See above.

No Directions
05-19-2015, 07:27
Do you have to stay at the shelters at all? What if you are between shelters? Not close by but say three miles from the closest one? Can you just pick a spot somewhere? What about hammocks, are there different rules since they don't mash down vegetation and such?

The rules aren't that complicated. Just go to the GSMNP and read them. If you still don't understand them read them again. I can't believe how frequently this topic comes up and how much bad information is given out. The rangers have seen and heard it all. You won't be the first person that has tried to get around the rules.

bemental
05-19-2015, 07:31
The rules aren't that complicated. Just go to the GSMNP and read them. If you still don't understand them read them again. I can't believe how frequently this topic comes up and how much bad information is given out. The rangers have seen and heard it all. You won't be the first person that has tried to get around the rules.

Who's trying to get around the rules? Merely pointing out that if you're a thru hiker and the shelter is full, you aren't required to stay in it.

It's as if I'm suggesting you set up camp outside an empty shelter and let everyone "take your spot" until its full.

You, ladies and gents, need to relax.

Pedaling Fool
05-19-2015, 07:50
You don't need to set your schedule so you arrive at the shelter late, just don't set up a spot in the shelter and soon it will be filled, much before sunset. I always get a chuckle out of people that are so eager to see if there is room in the shelter and reserve a spot when they first get there, it is their number one priority; sometimes I've put my pack down in a spot just to make them sweat a little:D

It's pretty incredible when you say, "I'm going to set up my tent" when people are trying to determine if there is enough room in the shelter -- the sheer joy they get out of that is kind of pathetic:)

rocketsocks
05-19-2015, 07:56
You don't need to set your schedule so you arrive at the shelter late, just don't set up a spot in the shelter and soon it will be filled, much before sunset. I always get a chuckle out of people that are so eager to see if there is room in the shelter and reserve a spot when they first get there, it is their number one priority; sometimes I've put my pack down in a spot just to make them sweat a little:D

It's pretty incredible when you say, "I'm going to set up my tent" when people are trying to determine if there is enough room in the shelter -- the sheer joy they get out of that is kind of pathetic:)You are a bad man...I love it. :D

bemental
05-19-2015, 08:03
You don't need to set your schedule so you arrive at the shelter late, just don't set up a spot in the shelter and soon it will be filled, much before sunset. I always get a chuckle out of people that are so eager to see if there is room in the shelter and reserve a spot when they first get there, it is their number one priority; sometimes I've put my pack down in a spot just to make them sweat a little:D

It's pretty incredible when you say, "I'm going to set up my tent" when people are trying to determine if there is enough room in the shelter -- the sheer joy they get out of that is kind of pathetic:)



So thoughtful of you to allow others to have your place in the shelter when it is *obviously* full!

But how *dare* you set up your tent in anticipation before a proper head count is complete by a compete authority...

No Directions
05-19-2015, 08:03
I wasn't referring to you Bemental.

bemental
05-19-2015, 08:05
I wasn't referring to you Bemental.

Good to know :-)

Can't take things on the internet too personal anyway. Gots to have that thick skin and all!

HooKooDooKu
05-19-2015, 08:57
The thing to keep in mind is that you can not plan for a full shelter every night. You need to make sure you're prepared to have to sleep in the shelter.

More than once I've had a reservation at a shelter that the online system indicated was full. But then less than ideal weather apparently changed a lot of plans because I've then been the only camper at the shelter or only a few others showed up.

FlyPaper
05-19-2015, 09:31
See above.

Rules have a way to be changed. Rules that are abused often get changed to be more restrictive.

TNhiker
05-19-2015, 09:55
Rules have a way to be changed. Rules that are abused often get changed to be more restrictive.



And that's exactly what happened in the Park..

people abused and ignored to rules for years and low and behold they had to change them...

thats how the new fee reservation got started....

and then people bitch about the new system....

No Directions
05-19-2015, 11:36
And that's exactly what happened in the Park..

people abused and ignored to rules for years and low and behold they had to change them...

thats how the new fee reservation got started....

and then people bitch about the new system....

And it's why many of the shelter fireplaces have been concreted up. There's a sign threatening this at the Mt LeConte shelter.

HooKooDooKu
05-19-2015, 12:26
And it's why many of the shelter fireplaces have been concreted up. There's a sign threatening this at the Mt LeConte shelter.
Actually... just to clarify...

The fireplace at Mt LeConte shelter was concreted up several years ago, and is currently the one place in GSMNP that fires are prohibited. The site is very popular and people were starting to cut down live trees to try to burn.

The current warnings are at Ice Water Springs Shelter. They've already removed the fire ring and posted a sign that fires are only permitted in the fireplace, and that the fireplace will get sealed up if people continue to violate the rules on burning only downed dead wood.

Pedaling Fool
05-19-2015, 14:26
And that's exactly what happened in the Park..

people abused and ignored to rules for years and low and behold they had to change them...

thats how the new fee reservation got started....

and then people bitch about the new system....People use to bitch about the old reservation system, because you'd call and call and no one would answer, so the Park's answer to that problem was this new reservation system, which came with two rangers, who, supposedly, would only be paid for by the new admission system. So, I'm not sure what you're talking about WRT "ignoring rules..."

So my question is how much more likely are you to see a ranger while hiking thru GSMNP nowadays?

That's why people are bitching, because the fee went just for the rangers salary (at least that's what we were told by the Park authorities). Furthermore, thru-hikers had no problems getting a permit, it was only the people who were visiting, as opposed to passing thru, so this new reservation system is more of a PITA, at least for thru-hikers. And paying a rangers salary via backcountry fees is kind of annoying and what do you get for it? You can't even get a reserved spot in the shelter. So what's changed -- Tougher getting a permit and you gotta pay for rangers who do what -- it's anyone's guess.

Theosus
05-19-2015, 16:45
Is arriving late against the rules? Must have missed that one.

I guess the only trouble then is figuring out when the thru hikers will fill up the shelters, and getting a thru-hiker permit? From what Iv'e read you don't have to be a true Springer-to-katadhin thru-hiker, only a hiker that started more than fifty miles before the entrance to the park. I'd really rather just do the AT through the GSMNP as day hikes to get around all this nonsense, but it doesn't look like that's possible.

TNhiker
05-19-2015, 16:46
People use to bitch about the old reservation system, because you'd call and call and no one would answer,




there were other complaints besides the non answering of the phone.....


rules were being broken (ie----bringing in 19 people for a campsite that was rated for 8) and they had to clamp down a little harder...........

Traffic Jam
05-19-2015, 17:22
People make the reservation process out to be way harder than it actually is. Relax, it's not that bad. The shelters aren't that bad either.

No one forces a hiker to thru hike or section hike. It is a voluntary, leisure activity...a vacation. If you don't like the rules in the Smokies, don't hike the Smokies...very simple.

Wildfang
09-01-2015, 00:25
haha so true. :)

jbix1958
09-06-2015, 01:07
So...if you prefer tenting, it seems that being a thru-hiker tilts the odds in your favor in that if the shelter fills up, thru-hikers are supposed to vacate by the rules. And the rules say you can only register as a thru-hiker if you begin & end 50 or more miles outside the park. So, the question begs to be asked - are they branding or tattooing you at the 50-mile-outside-the-park locations to prove that distance? I assume section hikers can register as a thru-hiker, jump on the AT in the park & pitch a tent near the shelter without having to have a hiking-in-the-park reservation. After all, there won't be a ranger there demanding to see their 50-mile branding.

MuddyWaters
09-06-2015, 01:26
So...if you prefer tenting, it seems that being a thru-hiker tilts the odds in your favor in that if the shelter fills up, thru-hikers are supposed to vacate by the rules. And the rules say you can only register as a thru-hiker if you begin & end 50 or more miles outside the park. So, the question begs to be asked - are they branding or tattooing you at the 50-mile-outside-the-park locations to prove that distance? I assume section hikers can register as a thru-hiker, jump on the AT in the park & pitch a tent near the shelter without having to have a hiking-in-the-park reservation. After all, there won't be a ranger there demanding to see their 50-mile branding.

Anyone with knowledge of the trail can just lie, not a thing they can do about it.

No Directions
09-07-2015, 08:54
So...if you prefer tenting, it seems that being a thru-hiker tilts the odds in your favor in that if the shelter fills up, thru-hikers are supposed to vacate by the rules. And the rules say you can only register as a thru-hiker if you begin & end 50 or more miles outside the park. So, the question begs to be asked - are they branding or tattooing you at the 50-mile-outside-the-park locations to prove that distance? I assume section hikers can register as a thru-hiker, jump on the AT in the park & pitch a tent near the shelter without having to have a hiking-in-the-park reservation. After all, there won't be a ranger there demanding to see their 50-mile branding.
Hikers not following the rules is exactly what BSP is complaining about. If you don't want to follow the rules why not just stay out of the park. Plenty of other places that will allow you to do whatever you want to do.

Obiwan
01-31-2016, 10:34
So the real danger is that people will not follow the current stupid rules so they will need to make new rules that make even less sense???

Frightening :-)

Seriously....how much sense does it make to have people waiting till all hours of the night to see if they won the shelter lottery...assuming they have any interest in the prize?

I can totally see those poor souls that were forced to have a reservation being stuck sleeping in the shelter. But for all the thru-hikers to be forced to set-up in the shelter (or hover around waiting) with the very real possibility of losing that spot and having to pitch their tent in the dark.

Sorry....just seems silly

No wonder you read about folks making an effort to arrive late in the Smokies!

Stevep311
04-13-2016, 11:40
I'm planning a section in the Smokies this year. The shelter regulations say that holders of shelter reservations must sleep in the shelter and are not permitted to tent. I would much rather tent (or actually, tarp) and am sincerely hoping the shelter Nazis aren't checking reservations to force me to take someone's chosen spot on that hard wood floor.
A lot of people would rather tent, but wouldn't it be best to follow the rules?

SouthMark
04-13-2016, 11:57
Hell I'd rather not stop at traffic lights. After all it's public roads and I should be able to do as I damn well please. Screw the rules, especially the ones I deme to be "stupid".


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TNhiker
04-13-2016, 12:00
No Direction posted this a few responses above..................but it is still pertinent.......and sums it all up in one simple sentence.....



If you don't want to follow the rules why not just stay out of the park.

Sarcasm the elf
04-13-2016, 12:08
A lot of people would rather tent, but wouldn't it be best to follow the rules?

Since that post was from 2014 I can only assume they have already taken the trip :rolleyes:

LittleRock
04-14-2016, 08:39
Eh, I tented 100-200 yards away from the shelters every night except one when I went through GSMNP a few years ago, and no one gave me any crap about it.

HooKooDooKu
04-14-2016, 09:02
Eh, I tented 100-200 yards away from the shelters every night except one when I went through GSMNP a few years ago, and no one gave me any crap about it.
Park rules state:

Thru-hikers may pitch tents in the immediate area around shelters only when all shelter spaces are taken.
Just because you didn't get crap about it doesn't make it right.

Uncle Joe
04-14-2016, 09:18
I would hate to have to stay in the shelters. Gotta be a low point along the route for a thru. I think when there's a known outbreak like this year that rule needs to be suspended. I'm not risking illness to follow the rules. I'd have to either get off the trail or find some other alternative to keep from breaking them.