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Starvin Marvin
01-28-2014, 15:44
If you had a choice in material for a tent floor, which would you choose and why.

- prefer it to be light weight, yet somewhat durable.
- waterproof enough to be used on snow.

Open to all suggestion and opinions. TIA.

Tipi Walter
01-28-2014, 15:58
Totally waterproof and durable. Think Hilleberg Kerlon 1800 numbers---triple urethane coated, 70 or 100 denier. Of course, Hilleberg makes the best tent floors I have ever seen.

burger
01-28-2014, 16:54
Silnylon is standard for floors in a lot of lightweight tents and tarptents, but it's not really waterproof. Fortunately, you can make silnylon waterproof by treating it with silicon seam sealant. Just follow these instructions: http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/Silnylon1/index.html

Alternatives else will be much heavier (like polyurethane-coated nylon) or fragile (like Cuben).

garlic08
01-28-2014, 19:12
I've been using silnylon floors for over a decade, without a ground cloth, and have never had a problem.

jimmyjam
01-28-2014, 19:17
Now that I've tried cuben I like it better because it is not as slippery as sil. I painted silcone stripes all over my previous bathtub floors and pads and still slid all around.

Starvin Marvin
01-29-2014, 08:58
Thank you Tipi Walter. That Kerlon material is an interesting read. Sounds weather worthy, and also a little heavier than the other available choices. Which tent do you use during the winter?

Does anyone know of a supplier for this material? ( without buying the whole tent )?

Tipi Walter
01-29-2014, 09:22
Thank you Tipi Walter. That Kerlon material is an interesting read. Sounds weather worthy, and also a little heavier than the other available choices. Which tent do you use during the winter?

Does anyone know of a supplier for this material? ( without buying the whole tent )?

Actually, the floor is not Kerlon but is instead some type of proprietary Hilleberg urethane-coated fabric which they may part with if you ask them nicely. Otherwise, to purchase just Kerlon in yards may be possible with some research and another call to Hilleberg.

My winter tents are mostly heavy Hillebergs with an MSR Fury thrown in for variety. Hilleberg Staikas and Keron tunnels. Too heavy for 99% of the backpacking world. My faves, though. Once a shelter is in your Circle of Trust and has been "combat" tested, it has earned its place and the weight is secondary.

Or as Whiteblazer Venchka says, "It's cheap and light when the going gets tough."

Starvin Marvin
01-29-2014, 10:07
Thanks for the link Burger. After reading that info ( 2005 ) a quick calculation shows that a polycro ground sheet will be lighter for providing the waterproofness. Maybe not as durable, but easily replaceable. However, it doesn't address the slipperiness of the floor. Thanks.

Starvin Marvin
01-29-2014, 10:10
Garlic08, how often do you set up directly on snow? You've never had any moisture come through the floor?

Starvin Marvin
01-29-2014, 10:43
jimmyjam, I'm guessing you are referring to the 1oz cuben. This seems like a good choice, just concerned about durability.


Does anyone have have any experience with cuben fiber as a floor, set up on snow?

Tipi Walter
01-29-2014, 11:28
Garlic08, how often do you set up directly on snow? You've never had any moisture come through the floor?

Most lightweight tents have 30 denier floors which is thin and doesn't have a high hydrostatic head---fancy word for letting in ground water/wet snow water when your weight is sitting on it. It sponges up thru the material. Not good. I've run tests in the backyard on the grass with a water hose and made a puddle and places various fabrics atop the puddle and sat on top for 5 minutes. Everything leaked except for my Hilleberg floor and your standard heavyweight silver/brown walmart tarp.

So I cut out a section and now use one for the inside of my tent as a ground cloth and to further protect my inflatable pads. And if ANY water comes into the tent or thru the floor, this tarp keeps it between it and the floor.

coach lou
01-29-2014, 11:35
Most lightweight tents have 30 denier floors which is thin and doesn't have a high hydrostatic head---fancy word for letting in ground water/wet snow water when your weight is sitting on it. It sponges up thru the material. Not good. I've run tests in the backyard on the grass with a water hose and made a puddle and places various fabrics atop the puddle and sat on top for 5 minutes. Everything leaked except for my Hilleberg floor and your standard heavyweight silver/brown walmart tarp.

So I cut out a section and now use one for the inside of my tent as a ground cloth and to further protect my inflatable pads. And if ANY water comes into the tent or thru the floor, this tarp keeps it between it and the floor.
I'm going to make a bathtub floor for the Hooch. The one Z-packs has is way too expensive. The one Bearclaw has is half the price. So I'm thinking of getting out the needle and thread. I've been searching and searching for a good material. Being an Ultra-loader, as you know, I just may go look at that Wal-mart tarp and give it some thought. I will field test the many pieces we have at home already, for waterproofness(?)!

Tipi Walter
01-29-2014, 12:15
I'm going to make a bathtub floor for the Hooch. The one Z-packs has is way too expensive. The one Bearclaw has is half the price. So I'm thinking of getting out the needle and thread. I've been searching and searching for a good material. Being an Ultra-loader, as you know, I just may go look at that Wal-mart tarp and give it some thought. I will field test the many pieces we have at home already, for waterproofness(?)!

Yes, it's fun and easy to run the Puddle Test with fabrics---as there is no lying then about what works or not. Plus, remember the walmart style tarps come in different millimeter thicknesses---try to find the heavyweight stuff. I think it's the silver/brown.

And if you do an online search on tarps, you'll find hundreds of options with some very heavyweight things and some using different fabrics. Check out---

http://www.tarpsplus.com/heavy-duty-poly-tarps.html

And check out the Vinyl tarp option (which I believe is rated to -40F)---The neat thing about all this is that you can get one and cut it precisely to size w/o needing a hem or further sewing---unless like in your case you're going to want a bathtub floor.

http://www.tarpsplus.com/heavy-duty-vinyl-tarps.html


(http://www.tarpsplus.com/heavy-duty-vinyl-tarps.html)

coach lou
01-29-2014, 12:28
Thanks for the links Walt! I'll send you pics when it's done.

Starvin Marvin
01-29-2014, 13:17
Thanks Tipi Walter for the input.

Vinyl tarps...Wow, 10 oz sq yd. Looks like the waterproofness and durability aspects are covered.

1234
01-29-2014, 17:20
I'm going to make a bathtub floor for the Hooch. The one Z-packs has is way too expensive. The one Bearclaw has is half the price. So I'm thinking of getting out the needle and thread. I've been searching and searching for a good material. Being an Ultra-loader, as you know, I just may go look at that Wal-mart tarp and give it some thought. I will field test the many pieces we have at home already, for waterproofness(?)!

I am thinking the same thing. One thing I see lots of folks do is set up in the bald spots around shelters. They are bath tubs. When it rains lots of the tents leak. I try to set up on a slight mound on the leaves, I even use foot to push leaves under the tent. I want the water to run away not be sitting in a puddle. When I pack up the leaves that stick to the poly cro that I put down first, I just shake off most but not all. The mud never comes off so I try to avoid setting up in dirt at all cost.

Tipi Walter
01-29-2014, 17:31
I am thinking the same thing. One thing I see lots of folks do is set up in the bald spots around shelters. They are bath tubs. When it rains lots of the tents leak. I try to set up on a slight mound on the leaves, I even use foot to push leaves under the tent. I want the water to run away not be sitting in a puddle. When I pack up the leaves that stick to the poly cro that I put down first, I just shake off most but not all. The mud never comes off so I try to avoid setting up in dirt at all cost.

"Lake Effect" happens on occasion if you're outside enough and so I put great stock in having a shelter which works well in ground water or sheeting ground water. In fact on my last trip after the Polar Vortex I was at 5,000 on Whiggs Meadow and got hit with a "hurricane rainstorm" which the wee'tards (weathermen) said had 60mph in the mountains and so a tremendous amount of rain came down in buckets---a deluge. My site was off the bald a bit but still the tent needed all 14 pegs and the ground I was on eventually became saturated like a sponge. See pics.

Good tent floors are meant to be set up on wet snow, in puddles on occasion, and during hellish rainstorm with sheeting ground water. You're not exactly in a creek but you're almost in a creek. No tent floor should leak, and if so the hydrostatic head is too low, the floor is too thin, or the coating ain't right.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/24-Days-in-the-Cold/i-m9dx5jr/0/L/TRIP%20152%20175-L.jpg

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/24-Days-in-the-Cold/i-nprCM7Q/0/L/TRIP%20152%20180-L.jpg
Of course I didn't set up directly in the lake but the ground was saturated anyway under the tent but had no leaks. Having a non-leaking tent floor is one of the basic criteria of a good tent.

HeartFire
01-29-2014, 18:29
Silnylon is standard for floors in a lot of lightweight tents and tarptents, but it's not really waterproof. Fortunately, you can make silnylon waterproof by treating it with silicon seam sealant. Just follow these instructions: http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/Silnylon1/index.html

Alternatives else will be much heavier (like polyurethane-coated nylon) or fragile (like Cuben).
Not all PU coated nylons are heavier. The PU coated/ silicone coated fabric I make the espresso brown rain jackets is rated as high or higher than most plain silnylon and it weighs the same - it's a 30D ripstop nylon, silicone coated on one side, PU coated on the other and finished weight is 1.4 oz - this is the same as the sil for the tents.- oh and it's rated over 2000 mm HH, compared to domestic sil at 1200mmHH and compared to the Big Agnes tent flys of 1200 mm HH.

garlic08
01-30-2014, 08:31
Garlic08, how often do you set up directly on snow? You've never had any moisture come through the floor?

Silnylon is fine on snow. I camped on (relatively) warm, wet snow a couple of times on the AT, and a couple more times on cold dry stuff in the Rockies. Tyvek will freeze hard to extremely cold snow after sleeping on it, but I haven't noticed that with silnylon.

Silnylon is not suitable for saturated ground. I've never had difficulty finding higher, well-drained sites.

coach lou
01-30-2014, 09:34
Silnylon is fine on snow. I camped on (relatively) warm, wet snow a couple of times on the AT, and a couple more times on cold dry stuff in the Rockies. Tyvek will freeze hard to extremely cold snow after sleeping on it, but I haven't noticed that with silnylon.

Silnylon is not suitable for saturated ground. I've never had difficulty finding higher, well-drained sites.


I have no experience with Tyvek.....of course we wouldn't set up in a low spot.........but how waterproof for how long is it?

coach lou
01-30-2014, 23:24
I'm 'bumpin' this up so maybe someone sees it! :)

garlic08
01-31-2014, 00:53
I have no experience with Tyvek.....of course we wouldn't set up in a low spot.........but how waterproof for how long is it?

I've never measured the time, but if you camp on wet ground on silnylon there will be water seeping through under any pressure points by morning. I deal with that by sleeping on a closed cell foam pad and I put my pack liner bag under my feet. A little moisture under the pad has never bothered me.

Starvin Marvin
01-31-2014, 13:57
Thank you Garlic08 for your responses.

Im getting closer.

Starvin Marvin
01-31-2014, 14:23
Not all PU coated nylons are heavier. The PU coated/ silicone coated fabric I make the espresso brown rain jackets is rated as high or higher than most plain silnylon and it weighs the same - it's a 30D ripstop nylon, silicone coated on one side, PU coated on the other and finished weight is 1.4 oz - this is the same as the sil for the tents.- oh and it's rated over 2000 mm HH, compared to domestic sil at 1200mmHH and compared to the Big Agnes tent flys of 1200 mm HH.

Thanks Judy. So that camo sil/nylon on your website, is that PU/Sil coated, or Sil on both sides? It shows a rating of 3500 mmHH, is that the same as the floors in your tents? TIA

HeartFire
01-31-2014, 16:17
Thanks Judy. So that camo sil/nylon on your website, is that PU/Sil coated, or Sil on both sides? It shows a rating of 3500 mmHH, is that the same as the floors in your tents? TIA
No, the camo tents have plain silnylon (3500 mm) floors. I haven't used the PU coated fabric for floors yet, but I suppose I could, I use it for the rain jackets and rain wraps.

Ender
01-31-2014, 16:24
I hate silnylon for tent floors. Hate it. A lot. With the burning passion of a thousand suns. It's so freaking slippery, even the slightest 0.05% incline and I end up bunched up at the foot of the tent by morning.

I'd much rather have a cuben fabric floor. Actually waterproof, lighter, less slippery.

Just Bill
01-31-2014, 18:17
Marvin- I assume you are making a shelter? I make my own gear and have realized (like all gear) there is no best- unless you talk specific. My informed, but not expert opinion- Here's my understanding; I welcome critique and factchecking.

Tipi style-
Sai Walter encounters and deals with a strange breed of cold and trip.
The duration of his trips call for Alpine expedition levels of quality in construction.
The locale he camps in is tricky- spring snow is what we midwesterners call it- cold enough for the ground to freeze (or still be frozen) but warm enough for rain or meltwater to pool and saturate everything. This is just about the hardest weather to camp in- the dreaded 33 and raining. Looking at the recent trip reports- Tipi's trip and Shug's video- I would almost prefer Shug's weather (25 below) because it's easier to deal with that what Walter was slopping around in. Zero to 20 is much better than 20-40.

The fella also has a strong (and perfectly good) philosophy that drives his gear choices. Walter is a tramp. He goes out for long stretches and other than his top secret caches and other tricks- he's on his own, mostly in temps cold enough that a bad tent, subsequent wet sleeping bag, could mean death. Actual death- so his circle of trust has strict requirements.

His goal is to be out for a long time, be self sufficient, and more or less get from here to there. (Forgive me Walter if I mis-speak)

Thru hiker/general camper-
You are out for a week or less, weight is important, you have somewhere to be more or less, and it's likely not deadly cold or life or death if your gear takes a ****- Walter's stuff is overslaughter for this kind of trip.

If money was no object- many would agree that a CF floor is the best. UL hikers generally concur that 1oz/yd is "plenty" and extremes to either side go .71 or 1.42 depending. I think even Walter might respect a CF/Hybrid fabric like Zpacks uses on their packs as a tent floor- I can't imagine anything much more bombproof than that. At some point you might as well be making the floor out of the rubber/vynil they make inflatable boats out of.

Durability- 100 nights. That's my goal when I buy gear. An average person gets out a few times a year, so there is some "shelf time" in that number. I figure a piece of gear should make it to the end of a thru with minor repairs (bout 150 nights). For the weekend warrior- one weekend a month is 24 nights a year- 4-5 years of use is pretty good in my opinion. Heavier fabric can last longer- but do you need it to? Sure, I own tents that are 15-20 years old, but I rarely use a shelter for more than a 100 nights before I get sick of it and try something new, and a lighter shelter from a quality manufacturer will rarely fail before 100 nights.

Sil-nylon is the compromise- and a good one can do a pretty good job. It's not the best- but it balances cost/weight/performance. Lots of folks go with the Sil tarp and cuben groundsheet (floor) too if they have a few more bucks to spend but aren't rich. The lightest/cheapest Sil-nylon does leak/mist and will fail the puddle test. The very best sil-nylon is still not cuben- but it's one third the price and only double the weight. Sounds bad, but when you are talking 2-4 yards of fabric, that's 2-4 ounces more. The walls are the bulk of the fabric- Judy could probably give you better ballparks than me.

You can also cheat. In Walter world where weight is no object use the trick we always did when camping in the dreaded spring melt- put up your regular tent and put a cheap blue plastic tarp INSIDE the tent. Got a 5x7 tent- get a 7x9 tarp so it wraps up the sides. For a couple a bucks and a whopping pound- your three season tent is now just fine for the winter weekender. You also have a tarp along to set up for breaks. Before high tech fabrics came out we all carried blue tarps- they still work and are now available in green!

If you're talking snow loads and high winds- then you need a good (alpine) tent- but if you are just talking ground water- the blue tarp is in my circle of trust.

In milder weather-the polycro or cheap painters tarp works fine- inside or out as it suits you.

You can also put a sleeping pad sized ground sheet (tyvek is fine inside the tent) to back up the sil-nylon if needed.

A question for Garlic (or anyone) I always thought that the little "underpad" moisture was also a result of your body warming the cool ground and causing transmission of vapor. Wrong technical terms i am sure, but this ain't BPL. I know sil leaks eventually- but the "damp pad" problem persists rain or shine in shoulder season if I recall.

A question for Walter- seriously man- what is a hundred pound pack? I know you hate lists but I really want to know. I get 24 days of wintertime food and fuel topping 60lbs, maybe even 75lbs. 5-6lb pack, 4 pounds of sleeping pads, 3 pound bag, 5lb tent- 20lbs or so there? So I guess that would do it. Not picking on you, I am genuinely curious.

Nooga
01-31-2014, 19:55
jimmyjam, I'm guessing you are referring to the 1oz cuben. This seems like a good choice, just concerned about durability.


Does anyone have have any experience with cuben fiber as a floor, set up on snow?

I carried a cuben fibre tent (Lightheart Solo) on my thru hike and the cuben floor performed exceptionally well. A couple of times in light snow and too many times in very wet conditions. You always try to pick a tent site with decent drainage, certainly one that does not turn into a swimming pool. A couple of times I ended up in a "swimming pool" and the floor did not leak. IMO, the beauty of cuben is that it is very easy field patch with cuben tape or duct tape, although I have not had to patch mine.

Tipi Walter
01-31-2014, 20:10
A question for Walter- seriously man- what is a hundred pound pack? I know you hate lists but I really want to know. I get 24 days of wintertime food and fuel topping 60lbs, maybe even 75lbs. 5-6lb pack, 4 pounds of sleeping pads, 3 pound bag, 5lb tent- 20lbs or so there? So I guess that would do it. Not picking on you, I am genuinely curious.

My last trip which you're speaking of included many comfort items which shot the pack weight up---

** Kahtoola microspikes.
** The pack/tent combo comes to around 17 lbs by themselves.
** The food load for 25 days was close to 50 lbs---not including the 44oz of white gas---two 22oz bottles.
** My usual reading material---either books or my internet book rolls---70 page roll of typing paper printed on both sides with interesting subjects I find on the web and copy---all burned of course during the course of a trip.

** Ample sleeping pad(s) and GEESE---down parka (around 2.4 lbs by itself), down pants, down booties, 3.6 lb down bag. The Exped Downmat 9 is 44oz, almost 3 lbs.

** Long trip spares---spare MSR stove pump, spare pack hipbelt buckle, spare batteries for camera(5 total carried), radio (total of 8AA's), spare headlamp (9AAA's total).

By the end of a trip I'm down to around 40 lbs and this load in my Mystery Ranch pack is like a daypack with a pair of crocs and a sandwich. LIGHT.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/10-Days-In-The-Cold/i-CGcDKGr/0/M/TRIP%20117%20107-M.jpg
The invaluable radio---friend on long lonely trips.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Tipi-Walter-Upper-Slickrock/i-6M43BP7/0/M/TRIP%20145%20057-M.jpg
Didn't mention the trail tools which are always carried now and are part of my standard load. Why? Because the trails I hike are in terrible shape and I like working them as I hike. Dump the pack, cut, return and load up---Repeat.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-in-Solitude/i-8QxSGvg/0/M/TRIP%20130%20028-M.jpg
An example of my internet book rolls---I usually take around 10 rolls on a typical trip---this equates to 700 typing papers---HEAVY. But all burned in the first week or so.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/18-Days-in-the-Big-Frog/i-7nDVkqp/0/M/TRIP%20141%20046-M.jpg
Gotta have several 3 inch candles to keep the fingers thawed at 0F.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/Five-Miles-of-Living-Hell-on/i-z9xkfKT/0/M/TRIP%20107%20154-M.jpg
The overkill down parka at 2.5 lbs is critical for outdoor comfort when the temps dip to 0F. It's like wearing a sleeping bag. The down hood is fantastic.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Cranbrook-School-Backpacking/i-vw6VF9D/0/M/TRIP%20120%20016-M.jpg
Here's about 40 lbs of food at the start of a "short" 18 day trip. ETC ETC You get the idea.

Starvin Marvin
02-01-2014, 11:01
Thanks Judy, Ender, Nooga, and Just Bill for putting things into perspective.


Yes i am planning on building a tent. GF and i do enjoy winter back packing and get out about every other weekend. Winter gear weight is heavier, so im trying to lighten up. We have a few tents, but id like to have one with the features that suit us. The plan is to have a free standing, 2 person, 2 door tent that weighs as close to 2 lbs as i can get. ( yea, i know). Free standing because dealing with deadman anchors is time consuming, and a pain.


The original plan had the whole thing made out of cuben, .51 or .74 walls, and 1 oz for the floor. Then i noticed some were ordering cuben tents with sil/nyl floors. So I came here asking for opinions. From those responses, I did more research and found that those on bpl mention that cuben for floors is not the best choice, mainly because of abrasion. They mentioned multiple pinholes. Think stomping down snow that has a frozen layer on top, sorta like a snowcone, (without the color). I'm not worried about powder snow, Im worried that the frozen crystals will wreak havok with the cuben. I might have to do my own tests to find out.


Just Bill, your 100 night durability goal is interesting. I havent thought about it that way. I see your point.


The 1.43 cuben is about the same weight as the sil/nyl i would choose. It would add about 2 ozs overall, compared to the 1 oz. cuben. Maybe thats the way to go.


Im heading out tomorrow for another overnite. I will put a peice of cuben under the tent to see if it has any impact on the material. I'll let you all know what i find out.


If anyone else has any experience with cuben set up on snow, either as a floor or ground cloth, feel free to chime in.


Thanks for eveyones input.

Tipi Walter
02-01-2014, 11:12
Does anyone have any experience with all the different weights of Cuben? I would be interested in testing the heavier grades of cuben for ground cloths and hydrostatic head, etc.