Felony Charges Filed in Utah Rock Tumbling Vandalism

[Tuckahoe]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/31/22526382-charges-filed-in-toppling-of-ancient-utah-rock-formation?lite

Utah has filed charges against the two men involved with the toppling of the rock formation last year. If convicted I am all for a jail time and hefty fines, however, I personally believe that felony charges are rather excessive (though I am sure felony level was reached based on the determined value of the damages caused).

[Sarcasm the elf]

I'm glad to hear it. Personally I think the felony level charge is warranted given the age and notoriety of the formation they destroyed.

So long as they don't have any prior convictions they will almost definitely be able to reach a deal where they pay a fine and agree to a hefty amount of community service, I do agree that no good would come of these two clowns clogging up our prison system.

[Malto]

I'm glad to hear it. Personally I think the felony level charge is warranted given the age and notoriety of the formation they destroyed.

So long as they don't have any prior convictions they will almost definitely be able to reach a deal where they pay a fine and agree to a hefty amount of community service, I do agree that no good would come of these two clowns clogging up our prison system.

agree. Lets hope there is a creative judge that can tailor community service in such a way as to offset some of the stupidly that the perps have demonstrated.

[Tipi Walter]

Man, are all people in Utah huge bellowing hippos? Anyway, I was sincerely hoping the rock was gonna twist around and land on the guy. Aron Ralston comes to mind. Obviously dayhikers.

[Kc Fiedler]

Man, are all people in Utah huge bellowing hippos? Anyway, I was sincerely hoping the rock was gonna twist around and land on the guy. Aron Ralston comes to mind. Obviously dayhikers.

First I spend my winters in Utah as a ski instructor. People here are no more belligerent or inflated than this silly comment. Also Aaron Ralston didn't push over a natural formation he was trapped by a bit of bad luck. Furthermore are you insinuating that somehow overnight backpackers are less prone to stupid acts of destruction? I think most would agree it's a function of environmental awareness, education, and respect. Let's be a little more discretionary with the mud slinging, friend.

[Tipi Walter]

First I spend my winters in Utah as a ski instructor. People here are no more belligerent or inflated than this silly comment. Also Aaron Ralston didn't push over a natural formation he was trapped by a bit of bad luck. Furthermore are you insinuating that somehow overnight backpackers are less prone to stupid acts of destruction? I think most would agree it's a function of environmental awareness, education, and respect. Let's be a little more discretionary with the mud slinging, friend.

C'mon, these guys opened themselves up to mud slinging when they pushed over this rock and then posted the video. Fair game now. I call "felony charges" official mud slinging. HAD the rock twisted around and landed on the guy, well, you'd be having your Ralston moment. We all know Aron's was an accident, as would this have been had the rock went another way.

My dayhiker comment comes from guys who start their hiking day in a car and end their hiking day in a car. I'm therefore assuming these "boy scout leaders"(??) must've been close to a car. Just an assumption. And "trundling" ain't a good thing to do, period. See--

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP20/newswire-absolon-dead-rockfall

A hiker caused this guy's death by throwing a rock over a hill. Not exactly the Utah scenario but trundling all the same. Unwise. And if someone is gonna push over rocks, why not spray paint their names on a few while they're at it?

And I grant you not all people in Utah are huge bellowng hippos, but some are.

[HooKooDooKu]

And if someone is gonna push over rocks, why not spray paint their names on a few while they're at it?
They didn't push over the rock formation to be destructive or to 'leave their mark'.

If you read the details, the guys thought they were doing a good thing, because as scout leaders, they thought the rock formation looked precarious and didn't want anyone to get hurt.

Unfortunately, you could equate it with fearing that George Washington's nose is going to fall off Mount Rushmore and hurt someone, so you climb up there and jack-hammer the nose off while nobody is near to keep everyone safe in the future.

IMHO, felony charges are warranted because of the destruction of a natural rock formation in a park. But I would also agree that not much good would be served putting these guys in jail.

[Hill Ape]

they are idiots, agreed that they opened themselves up to any public humilation, don't buy for a second that there was any real altruistic purpose to their behavior, and i've seen the video

no jail, but some very serious nasty community service, something latrine related

just my opinions

[Gervais]

LOLZ
TN has a WAY higher % of the population as morbidly obese. A friend xferred down there says she's never seen such a voluminous population in her life.



Man, are all people in Utah huge bellowing hippos? Anyway, I was sincerely hoping the rock was gonna twist around and land on the guy. Aron Ralston comes to mind. Obviously dayhikers.

[bfayer]

I think the felony charges are a result of the gentleman not agreeing to a plea for lesser charges.

DAs have a habit of doing that with folks that don't take a good deal when offered.

If it goes to trial, they will give the jury the option of lesser included offenses, and the two gentleman will end up being found guilty of the same charge offered in the plea but with a lot more lawyer bills.

They should take the plea.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

[elmotoots]

I was at the Park several years ago and did quite a bit of hiking.

If I had gotten into the mode of pushing that dangerous rock over to save the people, I would still be there.

These guys did it because they had a kid moment, and now they should pay for it.

I still laugh every time I think about how stupid they felt after they realized they should not have posted a video.

Then I get angry all over again.

[squeezebox]

And maybe they should be put on the no contact with children list. Kids don't need to learn that stuff.

[aficion]

LOLZ
TN has a WAY higher % of the population as morbidly obese. A friend xferred down there says she's never seen such a voluminous population in her life.

So we got fat stupid folks in every state. U really gonna argue one is better than another based on guessed at percentages. Grow up,...... as these two clearly failed to do.

[Wise Old Owl]

for the folks that don't think they need jail time - The point here is this stupid act went worldwide. They are adults - they made a poor decision. Why should there be no consequence? I doubt they will get jail. They do need to be made an example of... I think of the natural arches that were toppled along the banks of the Mississippi years ago... the petrogliphs destroyed on the outskirts of Vegas... Or all the Covered Bridges that were burned over the years locally.

You cant fix stupid - but you can make a great example of them... that's why we have a Darwin Award. IM (humble)O

[Starchild]

IMHO fellony charges should only apply if they intended to damage this knowing it is a landmark. And in our society the burden of proof should be on the state to prove that for knowleage. Otherwise it is a misuse of what a felony is, and misdemeanor fits far better unless again they intentionally damaged a landmark.


for the folks that don't think they need jail time - The point here is this stupid act went worldwide. They are adults - they made a poor decision. Why should there be no consequence?

Because we all make poor decisions at some time in our lives, it is an intrinsic part of being human and being human should not be illegal, nor punished, but accepted as part of the human condition that we are all subject to.

[Dogwood]

I watched the vid several times. I see no excusable immediate necessary purpose to allow them to destroy this formation. I believe they were having a "kid moment" despite them saying anything to the contrary. They shouldn't be allowed to make this decision to topple the formation based on the situation. I want to see the judge take decisive meaningful public action against this type of behavior so it doesn't occur as a matter of habit elsewhere in State/National Pks, National Monuments, Wildlife/Wilderness Areas, Historical sites, etc

I agree, teaching kids this stuff should be taken into consideration by the judge, perhaps by handing down additional conditions should he rule against these jokers, especially if the recording of the vid, was done in the presence of the younger more impressionable Scouts who's welfare the leasers were responsible for. This type of behavior can not be tolerated particularly when committed by those who are charged to be leaders at outing/hiking activities on public lands.




.... People here(in Utah) are no more belligerent or inflated than this silly comment(anywhere else). Also Aaron Ralston didn't push over a natural formation he was trapped by a bit of bad luck. Furthermore are you insinuating that somehow overnight backpackers are less prone to stupid acts of destruction? I think most would agree it's a function of environmental awareness, education, and respect. Let's be a little more discretionary with the mud slinging, friend.

I agree. Although these characters opened themselves up to deserved mud slinging I would be careful about stereotyping all people from Utah or day hikers like this. Also, what happened with Ralston was not the same. Aaron, in hindsight made some poor choices and it resulted in an accident. These jokers intentionally took a premeditated action which was not an accident.

[Hill Ape]

i really don't think anyone should ever go to jail unless there is a victim. i understand the loss to future generations, think the guys are idiots, but it just doesn't rise to level of losing your freedom to my eye. there are alternatives

maybe 30 days ;)

[Dogwood]

IMHO fellony charges should only apply if they intended to damage this knowing it is a landmark. And in our society the burden of proof should be on the state to prove that for knowleage. Otherwise it is a misuse of what a felony is, and misdemeanor fits far better unless again they intentionally damaged a landmark. ...

Uhh, they were in a State Park! Goblin Valley State Park. Isn't that sufficient evidence enough that they knew they were in a landmarked area? ....uhhh, of formations commonly referred to as goblins?


....Because we all make poor decisions at some time in our lives, it is an intrinsic part of being human and being human should not be illegal, nor punished, but accepted as part of the human condition that we are all subject to.

Quote that next time to a woman you meet who was viciously aped or a person who's house was robbed.

[bfayer]

So we got fat stupid folks in every state. U really gonna argue one is better than another based on guessed at percentages. Grow up,...... as these two clearly failed to do.

No need to guess, TN does have more obese folks than UT:

http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html



State
Prevalence
95% Confidence Interval


Alabama
33.0
(31.5, 34.4)


Alaska
25.7
(23.9, 27.5)


Arizona
26.0
(24.3, 27.8)


Arkansas
34.5
(32.7, 36.4)


California
25.0
(23.9, 26.0)


Colorado
20.5
(19.5, 21.4)


Connecticut
25.6
(24.3, 26.9)


Delaware
26.9
(25.2, 28.6)


District of Columbia
21.9
(19.8, 24.0)


Florida
25.2
(23.6, 26.7)


Georgia
29.1
(27.4, 30.8)


Hawaii
23.6
(22.0, 25.1)


Idaho
26.8
(24.8, 28.8)


Illinois
28.1
(26.4, 29.9)


Indiana
31.4
(30.1, 32.7)


Iowa
30.4
(29.1, 31.8)


Kansas
29.9
(28.7, 31.0)


Kentucky
31.3
(29.9, 32.6)


Louisiana
34.7
(33.1, 36.4)


Maine
28.4
(27.2, 29.5)


Maryland
27.6
(26.3, 28.9)


Massachusetts
22.9
(22.0, 23.8)


Michigan
31.1
(29.8, 32.3)


Minnesota
25.7
(24.7, 26.8)


Mississippi
34.6
(33.0, 36.2)


Missouri
29.6
(28.0, 31.2)


Montana
24.3
(23.1, 25.5)


Nebraska
28.6
(27.7, 29.6)


Nevada
26.2
(24.3, 28.1)


New Hampshire
27.3
(25.8, 28.8)


New Jersey
24.6
(23.6, 25.6)


New Mexico
27.1
(25.9, 28.3)


New York
23.6
(22.0, 25.1)


North Carolina
29.6
(28.5, 30.7)


North Dakota
29.7
(27.9, 31.4)


Ohio
30.1
(29.0, 31.2)


Oklahoma
32.2
(30.8, 33.6)


Oregon
27.3
(25.7, 29.0)


Pennsylvania
29.1
(28.1, 30.1)


Rhode Island
25.7
(24.1, 27.4)


South Carolina
31.6
(30.4, 32.8)


South Dakota
28.1
(26.5, 29.8)


Tennessee
31.1
(29.6, 32.7)


Texas
29.2
(27.8, 30.5)


Utah
24.3
(23.3, 25.3)


Vermont
23.7
(22.3, 25.1)


Virginia
27.4
(26.0, 28.7)


Washington
26.8
(25.8, 27.8)


West Virginia
33.8
(32.2, 35.4)


Wisconsin
29.7
(27.8, 31.6)


Wyoming

24.6
(22.8, 26.4)



if you don't like government numbers:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152945/Obesity-Chronic-Diseases-Stable-Across-States-2011.aspx?ref=image

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Remember that "If you don't have something nice to say, say nothing" post I made in another thread? I'll be leaving no comment about these guys here.

[Tipi Walter]

LOLZ
TN has a WAY higher % of the population as morbidly obese. A friend xferred down there says she's never seen such a voluminous population in her life.

You're right, in fact a recent news story came out declaring Knoxville to be the most sedentary city in the United States. Wow. A city of couch potatoes. And when they drive they are rolling couch potatoes.

[Abatis1948]

Remember that "If you don't have something nice to say, say nothing" post I made in another thread? I'll be leaving no comment about these guys here.

Thank You! Punishment should fit the crime. Too bad some of the postsshow the same like of regard directed at fellow humans.

[bamboo bob]

[QUOTE=HooKooDooKu;1842560]They didn't push over the rock formation to be destructive or to 'leave their mark'.

If you read the details, the guys thought they were doing a good thing, because as scout leaders, they thought the rock formation looked precarious and didn't want anyone to get hurt.
"

Pure nonsense! They knocked it over for their jollies . THEN made up an alibi about the formation being dangerous.

[MDSection12]

I'm with you, Bob. That video is not two guys doing a service to their community, it's two jackasses being jackasses. The 'public safety' angle is clearly just backtracking to justify themselves. They should be ashamed for their actions, but even more ashamed of their unwillingness to accept and admit their actions. These are role models for young scouts?

That may not be a 'nice' thing to say, but I dont believe in that nonsense anyway. The world is full of idiots, people who behave like idiots and people who used to behave like idiots... We can only move from one category to the next by holding each other accountable.

[Dogwood]

I don't know if any of these let's all feel good let's be nice comments are being directed my way but I will not be complacent or excuse this type of behavior, particularly from Boy Scout leaders who were with impressionable youth AND posted this vid on the net themselves. That was some damn precedent to set as group outing leaders! It was uncalled for and I call these Goblin Valley State Park formation destroyers/"topplers" commentary attempts at covering up their destructive deeds in hindsight pure BS.

[HikerMom58]

I'm with you, Bob. That video is not two guys doing a service to their community, it's two jackasses being jackasses. The 'public safety' angle is clearly just backtracking to justify themselves. They should be ashamed for their actions, but even more ashamed of their unwillingness to accept and admit their actions. These are role models for young scouts?

That may not be a 'nice' thing to say, but I dont believe in that nonsense anyway. The world is full of idiots, people who behave like idiots and people who used to behave like idiots... We can only move from one category to the next by holding each other accountable.

Hey MDSection12... hope you aren't too sore today! :)

I've got nothing on this one.... no real opinion on it. I just can't call it. That's how I usually am. Every once in a while I'll have a strong opinion about someone (s).. this isn't one of them.

[MDSection12]

Hey MDSection12... hope you aren't too sore today! :)

I've got nothing on this one.... no real opinion on it. I just can't call it. That's how I usually am. Every once in a while I'll have a strong opinion about someone (s).. this isn't one of them.
I'm a lot more sore than I expected, those last few miles were way tougher (and more beautiful) than I expected. Loved every minute though. :)

What settles this one for me is their statements... 'We did the right thing the wrong way.' That sends a terrible message. Why can't they just say 'we were wrong, and we're sorry' and leave it at that. That's if you even buy their excuse, which I don't anyway.

[bfayer]

As I have said before they are teaching their Scouts: if you get caught, deny everything, and accept responsibility for nothing. Great lesson for kids!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

[HikerMom58]

I'm a lot more sore than I expected, those last few miles were way tougher (and more beautiful) than I expected. Loved every minute though. :)

What settles this one for me is their statements... 'We did the right thing the wrong way.' That sends a terrible message. Why can't they just say 'we were wrong, and we're sorry' and leave it at that. That's if you even buy their excuse, which I don't anyway.

So happy u had good weather too! :)

I hear what you are saying MD.

I can't imagine any adults not being aware of what they did was wrong. If I had to wager a guess, I'd say they were not thinking at all... not at all! Then, after they realized that what they did was wrong, horrible etc... they tried to make excuses for their "brain fart".


As I have said before they are teaching their Scouts, if you get caught deny everything and accept responsibility for nothing. Great lesson for kids!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

I agree with you and MD.. not taking responsibly for their actions isn't setting a good example at all. It's a sad situation looking at it from all angles.

[Dogwood]

The message folks is - don't be a goblin toppler. Don't think you have the right to take matters into your own hands when on public lands.

You know I saw some widow makers on the AT in GSMNP. I think tomorrow I'm going out there with my chain saw to cut them down. :eek:
I also saw bears being a "problem" in Yosemite so I'm going to start shooting them. :confused:
That damn mountain goat gored a visitor in Olympic NP. I'm gonna rid that area of mountain goats as well. :mad:
Those steep cliffs in Grand Canyon NP need to be amended as well. I think I'll build fences all along any steep cliffs there. :(

[HooKooDooKu]

Pure nonsense! They knocked it over for their jollies . THEN made up an alibi about the formation being dangerous.
Watch the video, there's plenty of copies on YouTube. Yea, they were all jolly after managing to knock over such a huge stone... but that's where the glorification of news reports usually end. The original video continues with them talking about making the place safer... stating they've saved some kids life.

I've only said I don't think they deserve jail time... but that doesn't mean I don't think they should be punished... they should be... they did wrong and damaged a natural wonder. But you can make an example of them with serious monetary fines and plenty of community service.

[HooKooDooKu]

What I find more interesting (and surprised I missed it when it was originally reported in the news) is the lawsuit that was filed weeks before the damage at the Utah park was done.

It seems that 4 years ago, the guy seen pushing the formation over was in a car accident. For some reason, he only recently (but before the rock incident) decided to sue the teenager responsible for the accident for "serious, permanent and debilitating injuries (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/22/glenn-taylor-lawsuit-utah-rock-boy-scouts-back-pain_n_4143445.html)".

It sort of looks to me that he was not only foolish for destroying a natural rock formation... but he's also been foolish enough to post videos that could send his lawsuit into the toilet. Now THAT is hysterical.

[Dogwood]

Them ... stating they've saved some kids life is pure BS. I could say the same thing about widow makers and dead tree limbs in National and State Parks. Even IF I had good intentions who am I to start cutting down trees and taking it upon myself to do arborist work in these protected places. There are insured knowledgeable park people to take care of these things or make these decisions, NOT ME. Nor is it any other park visitor to take these types of non immediate situations into their own hands. That formation did NOT pose an immediate significant danger to anyone. Did you see how hard he had to push and rock that formation before he toppled it and he was a rather large adult? He had to work at destroying that formation. Saying he did the right thing the wrong way is another ignorant irresponsible don't blame me BS statement too. The right thing the right way would be to alert park personnel of their concerns and letting them make the determination of how to proceed not take the situation into his own hands which was NOT necessary and immediately needed.

[Dogwood]

If the car accident and resulting law suit claiming "serious, permanent and debilitating injuries (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/22/glenn-taylor-lawsuit-utah-rock-boy-scouts-back-pain_n_4143445.html)" was deceptively engineered, and there's certainly some question now that it may have been, then perhaps a pattern of deceptive character behavior case could be made against him regarding the Goblin Valley State park case. Seems like a pattern of intentional deceptive behavior could be made in legal arguments in multiple cases on the individual both by the insurance company and/or defendant in the disability/personal injury case and in the Goblin Valley State Park case.

[perdidochas]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/31/22526382-charges-filed-in-toppling-of-ancient-utah-rock-formation?lite

Utah has filed charges against the two men involved with the toppling of the rock formation last year. If convicted I am all for a jail time and hefty fines, however, I personally believe that felony charges are rather excessive (though I am sure felony level was reached based on the determined value of the damages caused).


If you think felony level was reached, why do you think it's excessive?

IMHO, felony charges are appropriate. That said, I would have no problem with them doing a plea bargain for a misdemeanor and a lot of community service and a hefty fine.

[perdidochas]

they are idiots, agreed that they opened themselves up to any public humilation, don't buy for a second that there was any real altruistic purpose to their behavior, and i've seen the video

no jail, but some very serious nasty community service, something latrine related

just my opinions

I agree. I think they made up the safety thing as an excuse. They had too much fun to be doing it for safety reasons.

[Damn Yankee]

I reviewed the video and nowhere in the video did they say that they felt it was a threat. It was only after the video went viral and a lawyer got involved did they say that they did it for safety. Anyone hiking that area should know the safety rules for being around such formations and view them from a distance of farther than two times the distance of height. In the video, they appeared that they were malicious, happy and showing off. In my opinion, they should be punished and stripped of their scout leader status along with doing trail clean up as part of their community service. It was just wrong in many ways. Anyone with any trail experience knows you don't mess with nature on the trail. Just my two cents, for what it's worth

[Tuckahoe]

If you think felony level was reached, why do you think it's excessive?

IMHO, felony charges are appropriate. That said, I would have no problem with them doing a plea bargain for a misdemeanor and a lot of community service and a hefty fine.

When this hit the news outlets, the masses demanded that these guys fry. Early on, officials in Utah had no idea what crime they could charge with, in large part because they had no idea how to assess the actual monetary damages or the costs of repairing the toppled goblin. It's not that I think felony level was reached, it is that the State of Utah believes that they have come to a felony charge that they can make stick.

These guys are a$$holes, guilty as sin, and if and once convicted they should be punished. But, there is a problem in our country and legal system, when we seek to make every infraction or crime a felony (but this is a political discussion not suitable for this site).

[Dogwood]

Since not everyone on WB has been to Goblin Valley SP, located near Hanksville UT, or has even seen a picture of it I'll post this.
http://www.utah.com/visitor/travel_offices/ask_a_local/goblin_valley.htm

If you look carefully at the picture you see the two people wandering through many similar formations in close proximity to similar formations in the same state as the one these bozos destroyed. Can you imagine what could happen if all the visitors to the SP started deciding by themselves that it would be just dandy to start destroying these formations and then, after being caught in their destructive actions, made up the lame excuse they were doing it for "safety" reasons? And, note these types of ancient formations, or quite similar ones, exist in several other places including Arches NP, Bryce Canyon NP, on the island of Lanai in Hawaii, Escalante Grand Staircase National Monument, and in several other places in Nevada, Arizona, and in Utah. The destruction that could occur from the precedent these idiots set into motion, should their malicious unwarranted actions not be addressed, could be substantial.

[Marta]

When this hit the news outlets, the masses demanded that these guys fry. Early on, officials in Utah had no idea what crime they could charge with, in large part because they had no idea how to assess the actual monetary damages or the costs of repairing the toppled goblin. It's not that I think felony level was reached, it is that the State of Utah believes that they have come to a felony charge that they can make stick.

These guys are a$$holes, guilty as sin, and if and once convicted they should be punished. But, there is a problem in our country and legal system, when we seek to make every infraction or crime a felony (but this is a political discussion not suitable for this site).

Point taken. I'm not crazy about spending tax money to keep them fed and cared for behind bars if a combination of public shaming, community service, and them paying money back to the Park Service could be their punishment instead. I'm not a lawyer but hopefully they could be fined way more than the cost of "repairs." Levying their paychecks to make them Diamond Level supporters of the Park would be satisfying.

[HooKooDooKu]

Since not everyone on WB has been to Goblin Valley SP, located near Hanksville UT, or has even seen a picture of it I'll post this.
http://www.utah.com/visitor/travel_offices/ask_a_local/goblin_valley.htm

If you look carefully at the picture you see the two people wandering through many similar formations in close proximity to similar formations in the same state as the one these bozos destroyed. Can you imagine what could happen if all the visitors to the SP started deciding by themselves that it would be just dandy to start destroying these formations and then, after being caught in their destructive actions, made up the lame excuse they were doing it for "safety" reasons? And, note these types of ancient formations, or quite similar ones, exist in several other places including Arches NP, Bryce Canyon NP, on the island of Lanai in Hawaii, Escalante Grand Staircase National Monument, and in several other places in Nevada, Arizona, and in Utah. The destruction that could occur from the precedent these idiots set into motion, should their malicious unwarranted actions not be addressed, could be substantial.

First of all, looking at the picture, most of the formations seen are not like the one that was toppled over. The one toppled over likely weighted about a ton and was being held up by a cross-section of rock that looked to be less than a square foot. So even if everyone tried, I doubt most of those formations could be pushed over by a single person without using some additional tools.

Second, No one has said these guys deserve a pass. Even if you choose to believe their story of doing this for public safety, it was not their place to destroy public property in the name of public safety if nobody's life was in immanent danger (which it wasn't given the effort they clearly had to exhibit to topple the formation).

So the only thing left is to determine what punishment these guys deserve. The only limits to that punishment that has been stated is those expressing on opinion that not much would be served sending these guys to jail.

Of course that "payment" has already started as they've already had their Boy Scout Leadership positions revoked. I would also suspect that these guys are already racking up some legal fees. Given the complexity and publicity of the case (it took time for the DA to even figure out how to charge these guys with a felony), I would be surprised if they left their defense up to a public defender.

[Dogwood]

Perhaps, it's time to put on the reading glasses. :) Look closer at the picture. Perhaps, if you have walked around these formations in Goblin Valley S P, as you are allowed, and elsewhere where they exist you would notice how fragile they can be and the number and size of the capstones that have the potential for great injury and even death on the top of these formations. And, these types of formations in this condition are numerous in GV SP! Don't be fooled! These types of formations with large less prone to erosional forces capstones supported by more fragile substrates exist very close to trails in other places too. I could have pushed over several in Goblin valley SP(by applying some significant force, AS THESE BOZOS OBVIOUSLY DOD!) and several directly adjacent to the trail in Bryce Canyon NP, namely the commonly referred to Hat Shop section on the Under the Rim Tr and on at least two other trails in BC NP.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Goblin_Valley_State_Park_%281%29.JPG (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Goblin_Valley_State_Park_(1).JPG)

http://www.capitolreef.travel/images/15235033-Goblin_Valley-Head.jpg (http://www.capitolreef.travel/goblin-valley.html)

http://www.takenbythewind.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Goblin-Valley-state-park.jpg (http://www.takenbythewind.com/2013/02/19/magical-places-fairy-tale/)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8ybnxH1WuuY/UavClcABclI/AAAAAAAAADY/uuRCriJRwpE/s1600/Goblin+Valley+2013+(1+of+5).jpg (http://www.mountainmomandtots.com/2013/06/goblin-valley-state-park-utah.html)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3457/3776230494_12310b25b6.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/68101774@N00/3776230494/)

http://www.kahncious.net/discover/images/hats.jpg (http://www.kahncious.net/discover/rock.htm)

The last two pics are of the Hat Shop in Bryce Canyon NP and if most of the capstones fell they wouldn't probably cause a death as those pics are of larger "goblin like" formations that are some feet away from the trail but some of these formations, albeit smaller ones with less sizable capstones, are closer to the trail and could cause serious injury. If you'll notice the pic with the boy it was taken in Goblin Valley and there(look closely, see the footprints?) you can see how folks are allowed to walk up closer(directly adjacent to the formations) and wander around through the formations.

So, do I or anyone else have the right to take it upon ourselves to decide for ourselves to start pushing over and destroying formations because we think they pose a safety risk? NAH!!!

[Damn Yankee]

WOW, what beautiful pictures. Now imagine if everyone felt the need to "preserve life"

[colorado_rob]

Man, are all people in Utah huge bellowing hippos? Anyway, I was sincerely hoping the rock was gonna twist around and land on the guy. Aron Ralston comes to mind. Obviously dayhikers. You don't know Aron Tipi, leave it alone. Aron is a stand-up great guy, who made a mistake and paid for it. This is in no way like his story.

[colorado_rob]

And yeah, hefty fine, dumb-a$$ tax, lesson learned. There are billions of such formations all over SE Utah.

[HooKooDooKu]

Perhaps, it's time to put on the reading glasses. :) Look closer at the picture.
The rocks in your first picture are likely more stable than you think.

Compare the two formations with the toppled rock.
25805

In the case of the rock that was toppled, not only was the cross section of the support structure small (in area) is was also very linear. So it didn't take much to change the center of gravity of the rock past the edge of the support structure.

By contrast, the support structure of the two formations in the first picture are much more two dimensional. It will take significantly more displacement to move the center of gravity of either of those two rocks past the edge of the support structures.

Picture balancing a cinder block on some wood:
#1: Take a 2x4 standing on edge (nailed to a support structure). Then balance the cinder block on the 2x4.
#2: Take a 4x4 and stand it up like a fence post. Balance the cinder block on the edge of that 4x4.
I think you will find it much easier to knock the #1 cinder block off balance than it will be to knock the #2 cinder block off balance.

NOTE: All bets are off if the rock on the right is indeed as off balance as it looks from the angle of the picture. I must admit that it looks from that angle that simply climbing on top of it and walking to the right could toss it off balance. But if it were really that much off balance, I would think the formation would have already fallen.

[colorado_rob]

[QUOTE=HooKooDooKu;1843778]The rocks in your first picture are likely more stable than you think.
.
25805 "rocks" ? Nope, really only very compressed, very old mud. Very, very soft, you can "write" in it with your finger (but no, I don't). If you ever go there, you'll understand. Still, they are not any sort of a safety hazard unless you're dumb enough to climb up on them. People do just that though. Goblin Valley really is quite a zoo. Very unique, but really not that amazing of a place given where it's at and all the truly amazing stuff nearby.

I tell you what, after watching that video of these Yahoos, I do hope they get serious fines/community service sentences. Wow, those guys really are the definition od d-u-m-b.

[Tuckahoe]

So, do I or anyone else have the right to take it upon ourselves to decide for ourselves to start pushing over and destroying formations because we think they pose a safety risk? NAH!!!

I'll bite...

The fact that these yahoos toppled the goblin is not the crime, that they toppled it on state property is. If the such a formation was on private property, that you owned, or if the property owner gave their permission, you could topple all the goblins you'd want.

[Dogwood]

I'n no geologist but you're trying to tell me about where I've been, what I've touched, and what I've looked at and examined closely? It's as Rob says. He has obviously been there too. The danger occurs when one starts climbing on or very forcefully pushing on(it takes concerted effort) or attempting to rock the large capstones on the goblins or in Bryce Canyon the hoodoos. I was specifically informed in both these locations to not damage or climb on either the goblins or hoodoos. In the vid, he obviously did all that. Then, AFTER the deed was done and he started being questioned about his destruction he comes up with the "I was doing it for the safety of the children" story. I call BS!

In Carlsbad Caverns NP on guided NP tours the Rangers point to specific places to place feet or hands, not to wander off onto brittle formations that could easily be crushed underfoot, or even touch formations because of the acids in our skin. Yet I witnessed people doing it! In Everglades NP you're told(yes some people have to be told REPEATEDLY) to keep their hands inside the air boat. Alligators are all over the place. Yet people do it! One guy, who I was sitting next to, was even slapping his hands on the water attracting a large gator(that he did not see!) that could have easily dragged him(maybe me too) into the water. In Glacier, Yellowstone, Yosemite, etc NPs we are informed we must secure our food from bears. Yet people ignore that! People are told they can't enter particularly ecologically sensitive or dangerous areas - ex: geysers, tops of waterfalls, edges of cliffs, caves, wildlife breeding areas, or given specific information about approaching too close to moose, mountain goats, bears, etc, DO NOT feed the wildlife, no open fires, etc. Yet people do it! I could go on and on with examples in NPs, SPs, Protected Wildlife Refuges, National Historical Sites, National Monuments, etc. We're warned explicitly in clear language, yet these things happen and often in the presence of others which then leads to a "if he did it so can I mentality." And, that's when people die(sometimes young folks and children!), precious ancient structures are damaged, artifacts are damaged, wildlife dies, etc and future generations are sometimes deprived. At what point do legal authorities step in and say enough by making a concerted effort to keep others from behaving like this?

[MuddyWaters]

They need to make examples of these idiots.

Id say $10,000 fine and about 40 hrs community service per yr with the NPS for the next 5 yrs sounds right to me.

[Tuckahoe]

http://www.criminalpropertydamage.com/utah/

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_06_010600.htm

[chiefiepoo]

Forget the community service and weekend "jail". 10 days in an ordinary county lockup ought to do quite well as a deterrent against future misdeeds and as punishment. Not too expensive and they could even be charged for meals and administrative costs as some jurisdictions do. Felony is a stretch, more like a misdemeanor it would seem.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Of course that "payment" has already started as they've already had their Boy Scout Leadership positions revoked.How is that a payment or penalty? It carries no financial or other burden, beyond perhaps social and/or community embarrassment. How such yahoos can be appointed as leaders in the first place is pretty amazing.

[bfayer]

How is that a payment or penalty? It carries no financial or other burden, beyond perhaps social and/or community embarrassment. How such yahoos can be appointed as leaders in the first place is pretty amazing.

Not really amazing, usually no one is appointed, they just step up. In some areas there are no where near enough people that are willing to volunteer. Even most parents of scouts are not interested in helping out. Boy scouts is pretty much an all volunteer operation.

Although all volunteers are screened, you can't screen for stupid.

[Hot Flash]

These guys are a$$holes, guilty as sin, and if and once convicted they should be punished. But, there is a problem in our country and legal system, when we seek to make every infraction or crime a felony (but this is a political discussion not suitable for this site).

Just because crime damages cannot be valued in dollars doesn't mean it's undeserving of felony status. These guys deserved to get felony charges. I'm glad others value our national parks more than you apparently do.

[perdidochas]

How is that a payment or penalty? It carries no financial or other burden, beyond perhaps social and/or community embarrassment. How such yahoos can be appointed as leaders in the first place is pretty amazing.

Leaders are volunteers. Most people who want to be Scout Leaders and pass the background checks can become Scout Leaders. That said, if they are leaders primarily to help their sons, it is a penalty. I'm a Scout Leader, and it would hurt me to be removed as one. That said, it would free at least one weekend a month, and every Monday night from 7-8:30.

[Tuckahoe]

Just because crime damages cannot be valued in dollars doesn't mean it's undeserving of felony status. These guys deserved to get felony charges. I'm glad others value our national parks more than you apparently do.

ummm, well. Yes, whether the damages reached a monetary threshold is exactly the determining factor in such cases. Utah officials took so long to charge because they couldn't determine a monetary value for the damages they caused. The age, beauty, geologic uniqueness, or cultural value do not determine the severity of charges because Utah statute requires a determination of monetary damages (Along with potential of harm to others).

I'm glad that my feelings towards severity of the charges is the determining factor with regards to how I feel about state and national parks. Sorry I'm not emotional enough for you.

[The Solemates]

They need to make examples of these idiots.

Id say $10,000 fine and about 40 hrs community service per yr with the NPS for the next 5 yrs sounds right to me.

that sure is ridiculously low. looking to the future and the precedence this case may make.....plenty of people have more money than they have sense, and could care very little about paying $10,000 in the rare case they got caught. In fact, I'll get 20 other guys to help me topple over the next rock and we'll have to only pay $500 each if caught. I say a certain percentage of each individual's paycheck, and 10 hrs per week per individual for 5 yrs of community service in the state park they were visiting.

[Tuckahoe]

This will be the harshest penalty faced --

Second Degree Felony Criminal Mischief

Criminal mischief is charged as a 2nd degree felony if it recklessly causes or threatens to cause a substantial interruption or impairment of a critical infrastructure or if the damage caused in the commission of the offense is valued at more than $5,000.


A 2nd degree felony can carry a potential penalty of 1 to 15 years in prison and fines reaching $10,000.

[atmilkman]

Immature lying fat azz s*** for brains. And his boy is gonna grow up to be one too.

[dmax]

I could be mistaken, but, didnt Gypsy's drawing at Fontana Dam give him a felony?
This scout leader could have been cubby's, ranger, joes etc... Scout leader. It's starting to make sense to me now how things like this happen.

[Doctari]

I hope I'm wrong, but I'd bet I'm not: These yahoos will get almost off Scott free. They may get a warning, with the judge saying something like "well, I (sort of) wish you hadn't done that, but it was only a rock"
The Scouts in their care will then learn a valuable lesson, you can destroy anything you want as long as you claim to be doing the "greater good"
Watched the full video, they did it for the fun of it, "we did it to save lives" was an afterthought! Nothing more!

As to the ample posts here: "There are plenty of those formations in the area!" along with a "its not a big deal" attitude, is what makes me believe that nothing will happen.
To those who feel there are many formations / no big deal: There are a lot of cars in your area, how about I come & smash up yours because it MAY be a hazard, , , , someday. Yea, that's what I thought! NO! IT'S NO DIFFERENT!

[Dogwood]

Time for some trivia. Where did the phrase Scott free come from?

[bfayer]

Time for some trivia. Where did the phrase Scott free come from?

I means not paying your taxes. Old English bastardization of a viking word for tax. If you did a favor for the crown, you would not have to pay your share of taxes.

[dmax]

It's not the scout masters fault. He shouldn't get in trouble. It's how he was raised. He didn't know any better. He was never taught right from wrong .........

[atmilkman]

It's not the scout masters fault. He shouldn't get in trouble. It's how he was raised. He didn't know any better. He was never taught right from wrong .........
Just like his daddy before him and his granddaddy before him.

[rocketsocks]

Forget the community service and weekend "jail". 10 days in an ordinary county lockup ought to do quite well as a deterrent against future misdeeds and as punishment. Not too expensive and they could even be charged for meals and administrative costs as some jurisdictions do. Felony is a stretch, more like a misdemeanor it would seem.

The group "W" bench

whad ya get kid?
...I didn't get nothin, I had to pay $50 dollars, and pick up all the rocks
[and they all moved away]

...and charged with "Gobblin toplin"
[and they all moved back.

[colorado_rob]

As to the ample posts here: "There are plenty of those formations in the area!" along with a "its not a big deal" attitude, is what makes me believe that nothing will happen.
To those who feel there are many formations / no big deal: There are a lot of cars in your area, how about I come & smash up yours because it MAY be a hazard, , , , someday. Yea, that's what I thought! NO! IT'S NO DIFFERENT! You might have misunderstood at least some of us... It IS indeed a big deal from a crime standpoint, the morons should be severely punished indeed (big fine, comm. service, etc). I do agree they will probably not be. We're talking the state of Utah here, about as red as it gets. If that were California, they might go to jail.

Anyway, my "it's not a big deal" was more from a loss of hoodoo/formation standpoint; I was saying that from this standpoint, one missing hoodoo will not even be noticed, it really is only a marginal loss of park beauty. Of course if lots of folks did this that would be bad. But really, this seems like an isolated incident. Not many people are as dumb as those morons.

My analogy: what if someone came along and cut down a tree along the AT where it is not legal to do so? How much loss of beauty would there be??? wouldn't be noticed. unless it was a really nice tree, of course. Not really a great analogy, but my point is GVSP is really not that special, though tourist do like it for some reason, I guess because there are paved roads and big parking lots in the park.

The whole SE part of Utah is glorious, GVSP is a tiny little piece of uniqueness, but pales in comparison to all else out there. SE Utah is my favorite playground, and that of all of my circle of outdoor enthusiasts, at least from October through April (too hot may-September). One trip to GVSP is a must, but I doubt if many people go back there.

[MuddyWaters]

The unfortunate thing to me, is they really didnt do anything that a significant portion of americans would have also done.

We have a country that would rather watch "dancing with the stars" and "american idol" than address the ways their elected officials have raped them.

[SunnyWalker]

I worked in prisons for 20 years and the rationalizations used by these two men to escape responsibility sounds real familiar to me. (Heard this a lot from inmates). I think their actions were disgusting and hope the Judge makes an example of them.

[Wise Old Owl]

Dmax - I can't believe you posted that.

[Dogwood]

I means not paying your taxes. Old English bastardization of a viking word for tax. If you did a favor for the crown, you would not have to pay your share of taxes.

You're right. I thought the origin came from the Dred Scott Decision but it goes back further than that. What through me off is that your origin is spelled "scot" which comes from the Norse "skot" while it was written here as "Scott." You go on to the Bonus round while I must settle for a 1 yr subscription in the Cheese of the Month Club. :D cheesy smile.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/6309

[atmilkman]

I worked in prisons for 20 years and the rationalizations used by these two men to escape responsibility sounds real familiar to me. (Heard this a lot from inmates). I think their actions were disgusting and hope the Judge makes an example of them.
Their next step is to pick up the Bible and start reading it and find God. Another last minute prison tactic before you go see the judge.

[Dogwood]

These "goblin toppling Neanderthals" better hope they don't have a jury trail with WB Users serving jury duty.

[fins1838]

Hang em high. (I like how they threw in the children getting hurt thing, just like politicians).

[fins1838]

I hope I'm wrong, but I'd bet I'm not: These yahoos will get almost off Scott free. They may get a warning, with the judge saying something like "well, I (sort of) wish you hadn't done that, but it was only a rock"
The Scouts in their care will then learn a valuable lesson, you can destroy anything you want as long as you claim to be doing the "greater good"
Watched the full video, they did it for the fun of it, "we did it to save lives" was an afterthought! Nothing more!

As to the ample posts here: "There are plenty of those formations in the area!" along with a "its not a big deal" attitude, is what makes me believe that nothing will happen.
To those who feel there are many formations / no big deal: There are a lot of cars in your area, how about I come & smash up yours because it MAY be a hazard, , , , someday. Yea, that's what I thought! NO! IT'S NO DIFFERENT!
You nailed it. Said perfectly.

[bfayer]

I still think the felony charges are an attempt to get these guys guy to take a plea. The Scouts need to see these jerks accept responsibility for their actions. Taking the plea would do that.

As for establishing a cost for the damage they did, that is actually the easy part. The legal standard is not if the damage can be restored (we all know it can't), but if it could what would it cost to put it back the way they found it or a close as possible. (make it whole). So if you add up the cost of an engineer, a geologist, a helicopter, riggers, etc. It's easy to set a cost the court can work with.

If I was the prosecutor I would pile it on, add the cost of an environmental impact study, all the equipment cost, the cost of an archeological study to make sure the equipment would not damage any ancient Native American sites, etc, etc, etc.

By the time I was done, they would be looking at charges that add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars. All they would need to do, plead guilty to the misdemeanor charges, pay a relatively small fine, do community service, and most importantly stand up in court and admit they were stupid.

[waasj]

Seeing the video, I don't think anyone was ever in any real danger here. I think the yahoos in question might have been trying to make it appear to be an act in the best interest of the greater community. As some one posted, if you were to roll all of the "dangerous looking" ones off, it would take several years. This area is unique and needs to be preserved. I have been there, and one thing I did NOT see was alot of the capstones laying around having fallen off their bases. These things are not fragile or perilous, these guys were not commiting this act in the interest of public safety, they wanted to see a rock roll down a hill.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

If they wanted to insure their charges safety, perhaps they could have .... oh I don't know....walked AROUND it !

[imscotty]

Just found myself wondering whatever happened to these two jerks... so I Googled the answer, they got off way too easy...

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/03/18/291201681/ex-scouts-who-toppled-ancient-rock-formations-reach-plea-deal

[Dogwood]

I would have made conditional to their probation community service at a Nature Center, NP or SP Visitors Center, etc that further raised their environmental awareness and offering a rescinding of their actions to the Scouts who may have been present through an apology or some recognition they could have handled things more constructively. Like that they are charged with putting up warning signs not to damage the goblins which is a in essence community service.

[squeezebox]

You're right. I thought the origin came from the Dred Scott Decision but it goes back further than that. What through me off is that your origin is spelled "scot" which comes from the Norse "skot" while it was written here as "Scott." You go on to the Bonus round while I must settle for a 1 yr subscription in the Cheese of the Month Club. :D cheesy smile.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/6309
dred Scott was turned back to his master, The case happened in St. Louis. I can't imagine how many linchings happened during that case.

[squeezebox]

My nephew went on a week scout trip out of Springer mountain about a year ago. He told me that he learned that LNT was for adults not scouts.
Now most of you Scout guys are good but a few are not.
Just maybe the boy scouts need to recruit more gay scout masters to teach our boys beauty and respect.
My brother is a full blown idiot when it comes to outdoors and his sons. I am blocked from talking to my nephews about anything outdoors. I can only hope they come to me or you to learn a right way to do things.

[Dogwood]

What's that I hear? Could it be the footsteps of MODS?

[squeezebox]

What's that I hear? Could it be the footsteps of MODS?


mods? please define.

[Starchild]

Just found myself wondering whatever happened to these two jerks... so I Googled the answer, they got off way too easy...

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/03/18/291201681/ex-scouts-who-toppled-ancient-rock-formations-reach-plea-deal
What would be the point of punishing them (harder)? They seem to have realized their error of their ways, what good would come of a harder sentence? They ended up paying the cost of their error, including the investigation and court costs, and made to pay for having to put up signs to prevent this from happening in the future. In that last part, they are now helping the place they damaged, so paying back to society by limiting any future damage.

[MuddyWaters]

What would be the point of punishing them (harder)? They seem to have realized their error of their ways, what good would come of a harder sentence?

1. example for others to THINK
2. makes us feel better

Im for bringing back public stoning.
Some people are too stupid to be part of society. This was one instance, its a symptom, not a unique event.

[Starchild]

1. example for others to THINK

That's what the signs they are paying for already will do.


2. makes us feel better

Living in a unjust society does not make me feel any better. Hurting someone to make yourself feel better is evil as I see it.


Im for bringing back public stoning.
Some people are too stupid to be part of society.

We'd all be dead then if we were stoned for being stupid at times. Though that last person, well they might have to jump off a cliff as it's hard to stone oneself.


This was one instance, its a symptom, not a unique event.
Actually for them, it is a unique event, it was the transformational event in their lives where they learned what they needed to know. That should not be punished, it is the wrong message.

[Odd Man Out]

...Im for bringing back public stoning...

Perhaps we could tip a goblin over on top of them!

[BirdBrain]

I am okay with letting the judge and/or jury decide culpability and possible punishment. However, part of that punishment, if found guilty, should include banishment from the type of area the offender has so little respect for. This would solve many problems. Those that hate the rules of such areas would be free from the temptation of violating said rules and those that respect the rules would be free from the effects of such disrespectful behavior and the idiots that think themselves above said rules. The punishment beyond banishment would also have to be great enough to discourage those that don't care if they are banished. I am glad I am not the Solomon that decides such things. It can't be a fulfilling job.

Eccl 8:11 "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."

[Traveler]

Banishing those who do not care if they are banished is to burnish the banishment to a higher banishing level so the banished have an exemplary banish experience worthy of banishment.

<dusting off hands>

[BirdBrain]

I am okay with letting the judge and/or jury decide culpability and possible punishment. However, part of that punishment, if found guilty, should include banishment from the type of area the offender has so little respect for. This would solve many problems. Those that hate the rules of such areas would be free from the temptation of violating said rules and those that respect the rules would be free from the effects of such disrespectful behavior and the idiots that think themselves above said rules. The punishment beyond banishment would also have to be great enough to discourage those that don't care if they are banished. I am glad I am not the Solomon that decides such things. It can't be a fulfilling job.

Eccl 8:11 "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."


Banishing those who do not care if they are banished is to burnish the banishment to a higher banishing level so the banished have an exemplary banish experience worthy of banishment.

<dusting off hands>

Some care about visiting such places. The threat of banishment would be an effective deterrent for those people. For the other types, see the above bold print. Either way, there would be an attrition of "one offs". These people cannot represent a big percentage of the population. I hope we are not that far gone. I am more interested in protecting things that most people appreciate than to appeal to the logic of the problem childs. I do not care how the banished feel about their banishment so long as the treasure is protected. There is no piling those rocks up again. There is no punishment that will fix those rocks. I am more interested in deterrents that protect treasures than I am in punishing people. If the treat of banishment is irrelevant than the threat of punishment should be great enough to stop the activity.

I can see a debate about if punishments work or not coming. I don't want to punish anyone. I am not in a position to say I am better than anyone. I have not lead a model life. I just want the treasures protected. I am not the Solomon that knows the best way to protect those treasures. However, there has to be a way. And just letting it happen ain't it.

[Rolls Kanardly]

I have received an email from a long time WB member who does not agree with me.
I do not wish to offend anyone or upset anyone with anything I post.

Therefore I am effectively deleting my orignal post in this thread.
Rolls

[Tuckahoe]

The bounty of this country fed our predecestors for hundreds/thousands of years yet there are laws that punish quite serverly anyone taking game out of season even if their family is hungry. Yet rocks meant for beauty only were destroyed for a bogus reason and the fine is nothing.
They could have walked around or not gone near at all.

Know how I know your post is BS?

Rock tumblers -- $2400+ costs and fines, plus an undertmined amount to cover the costs of signage.

Utah wildlife violations --

Penalties for Wildlife Violations in UtahThe basic minimum penalties for many wildlife violations are listed below; however, these penalties may increase depending on the type of wildlife involved in the offense and whether the offender has previously been convicted of wildlife violations.

Class B Misdemeanors – These offenses can result in up to six months imprisonment and/or fines up to $1,000.

Class A Misdemeanors – This degree of offense can result in imprisonment not exceeding one year and/or fines not more than $2,500.

Third Degree Felonies – This type of felony can incur five years imprisonment and/or fines not exceeding $5,000.

Additional penalties for wildlife violations can include permanent or temporary loss of a hunting or fishing license and privileges, forfeiture of hunting equipment, or restitution for the value of the wildlife or damage from the violation.

Restitution payments for trophy animals in Utah can be as much as $30,000. These payments go into a state fund, the Help Stop Poaching Fund, dedicated to catching and convicting poachers by rewarding hunters who report illegal poaching activity.

[TexasBob]

Perhaps we could tip a goblin over on top of them!

Watching that video, they came close to doing that to themselves. Those two morons would not have been laughing then. They could have been stars on an epic fail video.

[squeezebox]

Watching that video, they came close to doing that to themselves. Those two morons would not have been laughing then. They could have been stars on an epic fail video.

And then they would probably filed a bogus law suit.