View Full Version : Deep Winter Bedroll
catskillmountainman
02-04-2014, 18:01
With my range of experience basically limited to doubling up on one Walmart CCF Pad and one Thermarest CCF Pad, or the more traditional pine bow bed; I'm looking for some ideas to beef up these systems and gain some R value without carrying a third pad. Do sheets of tyvek, tarp, poncho liner, mylar blankets, add any significant insulation?
Teacher & Snacktime
02-04-2014, 18:02
Why not replace one of the CCF pads with an inflatable? Much higher R-value.
Tipi Walter
02-04-2014, 18:46
Bushcraft vs backpacking? I'd go with a large 45 gal garbage bag stuffed with dead leaves and sleep on that.
Bushcraft vs backpacking? I'd go with a large 45 gal garbage bag stuffed with dead leaves and sleep on that.
Should I put my ccf pad under the bag of leaves?
The Walmart pad is probably around R1 or slightly less. If I were to stick with CCF, I would get two Z-rests (or ridge rests) and an 1/8 in CCF to slip between them. That should create some dead air space between the two. Combining two convoluted mats without something in between reduces the combined R value. With the 1/8th CCF you should preserve the additive value of the mats.
What I would actually do is what I do do, and that is what Teach said. Get an inflatable to combine with the CCF.
Should I put my ccf pad under the bag of leaves?
No the trash bag goes inside your sleeping bag. Dual purpose, insulation and vapor barrier :)
Tipi Walter
02-04-2014, 19:09
No the trash bag goes inside your sleeping bag. Dual purpose, insulation and vapor barrier :)
I just assumed he's carrying a blanket as in Bedroll Camping. Otherwise, the whole point of course is to sleep on top of a big pile of leaves. I'd put the ccf on top of the leaves, for comfort. The garbage bag only keeps the leaves in one controlled pile so you don't have to gather 3 times as much and account for the pile spreading out.
OR . . . . he could build a small forked-tree debris hut/lean-to and stuff it with dead leaves and sleep inside this cocoon---if he had no sleeping bag or blanket.
I just assumed he's carrying a blanket as in Bedroll Camping. Otherwise, the whole point of course is to sleep on top of a big pile of leaves. I'd put the ccf on top of the leaves, for comfort. The garbage bag only keeps the leaves in one controlled pile so you don't have to gather 3 times as much and account for the pile spreading out.
OR . . . . he could build a small forked-tree debris hut/lean-to and stuff it with dead leaves and sleep inside this cocoon---if he had no sleeping bag or blanket.
Appreciate both your humor and help. I carry a Wally world 25 by 72 ccf. I also carry a short old thermarest in winter. if my thermarest blew out, or just to experiment, a bag of leaves sounds great. I'm just not sure if thee ccf would have more insulative capacity on the ground or on top of the bag. Probably adequate either way.
catskillmountainman
02-04-2014, 20:32
I just assumed he's carrying a blanket as in Bedroll Camping. Otherwise, the whole point of course is to sleep on top of a big pile of leaves. I'd put the ccf on top of the leaves, for comfort. The garbage bag only keeps the leaves in one controlled pile so you don't have to gather 3 times as much and account for the pile spreading out.
OR . . . . he could build a small forked-tree debris hut/lean-to and stuff it with dead leaves and sleep inside this cocoon---if he had no sleeping bag or blanket.
Whats funny here is, how would one go about gathering leaves under 1-2 feet of snow? Even if you started digging, those leaves would be frozen to the ground and sopping wet. Overall, whether bedroll camping with wool blankets, or with a sleeping bag/quilt; my question was concerning whether or not you could gain some warmth with something as simple as 2 sheets of tyvec or tarp. It seems like, in order to insulate from the ground; people use either CCF or Inflatable Pads. Is there other materials that add some insulation?
Alligator
02-04-2014, 20:41
Check out the R values on some of the insulated inflatables.
I usually go the with the ccf and an inflatable as you do. People recommend placing the ccf on top. I have always done the opposite without issues.
Whats funny here is, how would one go about gathering leaves under 1-2 feet of snow? Even if you started digging, those leaves would be frozen to the ground and sopping wet. Overall, whether bedroll camping with wool blankets, or with a sleeping bag/quilt; my question was concerning whether or not you could gain some warmth with something as simple as 2 sheets of tyvec or tarp. It seems like, in order to insulate from the ground; people use either CCF or Inflatable Pads. Is there other materials that add some insulation?
no tyvek or a tarp will provide no real help.
kayak karl
02-04-2014, 20:59
i've used this pad (http://www.rei.com/product/811907/exped-synmat-ul-7-air-pad) down below zero no problems until Kaia learned to stay in hammock all night.
no tyvek or a tarp will provide no real help.
A reflective survival blanket type ground cloth might add a bit of R value though. Don't want to guess how much, but i would guess some.
bamboo bob
02-04-2014, 21:07
Whats funny here is, how would one go about gathering leaves under 1-2 feet of snow? Even if you started digging, those leaves would be frozen to the ground and sopping wet. Overall, whether bedroll camping with wool blankets, or with a sleeping bag/quilt; my question was concerning whether or not you could gain some warmth with something as simple as 2 sheets of tyvec or tarp. It seems like, in order to insulate from the ground; people use either CCF or Inflatable Pads. Is there other materials that add some insulation?
I put my tent on a piece of tyvek and my bag on a ridgerest or more recently a thermarest 3/4 or in a shelter i put the tyvek down.
Feral Bill
02-04-2014, 21:16
In ancient times we used two 1/2 inch ccf pads. Now I use a short 1" Thermarest on one ccf pad. Both work fine with a warm sleeping bag.
In ancient times we used two 1/2 inch ccf pads. Now I use a short 1" Thermarest on one ccf pad. Both work fine with a warm sleeping bag.
Works for me too and if the inflatable fails, I got backup.
daddytwosticks
02-05-2014, 08:25
I think if I were hiking/camping/bushcrafting like this, I'd go with Tipi's suggestion and use a couple of lawn and leaf garbage bags stuffed with forest duff. The bags may be able to be used for other purposes, if they survive. :)
Tipi Walter
02-05-2014, 09:16
Whats funny here is, how would one go about gathering leaves under 1-2 feet of snow? Even if you started digging, those leaves would be frozen to the ground and sopping wet. Overall, whether bedroll camping with wool blankets, or with a sleeping bag/quilt; my question was concerning whether or not you could gain some warmth with something as simple as 2 sheets of tyvec or tarp. It seems like, in order to insulate from the ground; people use either CCF or Inflatable Pads. Is there other materials that add some insulation?
Sleeping atop snow and ice is a true test of your sleeping pad(s) as mountaineers do it all the time, and I have on occasion. A piece of flat tyvek or a standard 5mm or 10mm tarp offers little or no insulation over snow---if it did winter backpackers would be using them. For me a good rule of thumb is a minimum of 5R value for "deep winter"---which means one stand-alone inflatable (think Exped Downmats at 8R---very warm and comfy) or two inflatables (think 2 Prolites or prolite combos), or two Thermarest Ridgerest Solar pads (7R combined---bulky), or combinations thereof.
On the other hand, you could do the labor intensive Jeremiah Johnson solution---get a snow shovel and dig to the ground and build a big fire with hot rocks and ashes and later cover them with dirt and sleep on top of this warmth.
I think if I were hiking/camping/bushcrafting like this, I'd go with Tipi's suggestion and use a couple of lawn and leaf garbage bags stuffed with forest duff. The bags may be able to be used for other purposes, if they survive. :)
Or in snow you could use evergreen boughs piled high inside a snow shelter of some sort. Not exactly LNT and if everyone did it we'd have trees stripped of their lower branches---SO we carry the necessary pads.
Starvin Marvin
02-05-2014, 13:08
With my range of experience basically limited to doubling up on one Walmart CCF Pad and one Thermarest CCF Pad, or the more traditional pine bow bed; I'm looking for some ideas to beef up these systems and gain some R value without carrying a third pad. Do sheets of tyvek, tarp, poncho liner, mylar blankets, add any significant insulation?
I dont think any of those sheets will add any Insulation to your set up.
GF and I just completed the 3500s this past weekend. We both use X-Therms, and are very happy with the warmth they provide. They are also a LOT less bulky than CCF pads.
catskillmountainman
02-09-2014, 14:05
I dont think any of those sheets will add any Insulation to your set up.
GF and I just completed the 3500s this past weekend. We both use X-Therms, and are very happy with the warmth they provide. They are also a LOT less bulky than CCF pads.
Congrats!
Never really understood peoples gripes with the CCF pads, even when carrying two. They are so light that when strapping to the outside of your pack, they will never cause any balancing problems. A 3 or 4 pound sleeping bag might be a different story. I will usually just strap two CCF sleeping pads(Accordian Style) vertically on each side of the pack, thus freeing up all sorts of space inside your pack, and freeing up space along the top or bottom to strap your tarp/ tent poles.
catskillmountainman
02-09-2014, 14:08
On a side bar, does anyone have any experience with Hyalite Equipment sleeping pads? They carry a 10 ounce CCF pad that claims R value of 4?! Same goes with there classic self inflating SL sleeping pad; this 2lb. sleeping pad claims an R value of 4, and is only 25-35 dollars. I was thinking of springing on this, because with a coupon I could purchase on for 18.00, free shipping.