New Titanium External frame

[perrymk]

http://www.vargooutdoors.com/ti-arc-backpack.html#.UvJX0HkqQrw

I must have all things titanium.

However, I am concerned about the 30 pound rating, as well as the apparent multiple fabric stress points (unless I'm misinterpreting what I see). It does look interesting though. I can't wait to see a price.

[Hill Ape]

299.95 found under Q&A for the pack

[perrymk]

Wow! This morning there was only one question in the Q&A. Now there are three.

Having worked with Ti I feel that $300 isn't bad for what it is, but I'd really want to put my hands on one before shelling out the money.

[Damn Yankee]

$299.95 and already out of stock

[leaftye]

Oooh, titanium pack.

[Sierra2015]

Is titanium something special?

[Hot Flash]

Is titanium something special?

What planet are you from?

[4eyedbuzzard]

Not for nothin', but at 2 lbs 13 oz, I can't see it. That's a lot of money for a pretty traditional external. An Aluminum frame would likely have very similar weight. Most of the weight is in the pack suspension materials and pack bag - not the Titanium frame. But if it says Titanium - people will just have to buy it. I'd rather see a very lightweight Ti frame with some fancy cuben and other high tech materials - but then you likely wouldn't need a frame, right?

[4eyedbuzzard]

Is titanium something special? Titanium (Ti) A slightly lighter, slightly stronger metal than Aluminum (Al), at usually three times or more the price. Very much in vogue with UL hikers. It is typically found in consumer products as an alloy of Ti, Al, Ni.
Nice? Very much so. Needed? Absolutely not. Pricey? You bet.

[Sierra2015]

What planet are you from?
Cool down, Hot Flash. I speaketh wit gud humours.

[Slo-go'en]

For an extra pound you can get a Jansport Scout for $100 which has significantly larger capacity. 63 L vs 37 L Although the Scout is marketed as a kids pack, it is pleanty large enough for an adult (which is why I bought one).

At $300 and only 37L, this titanium pack is a very expensive day pack.

[Tuckahoe]

Is titanium something special?

Simply a strong, lighweight, corrosion resistant metal

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium

Physical properties

A metallic element, titanium is recognized for its high strength-to-weight ratio.[7] It is a strong metal with low density that is quite ductile (especially in an oxygen-free environment),[2] lustrous, and metallic-white in color.[9] The relatively high melting point (more than 1,650 °C or 3,000 °F) makes it useful as a refractory metal. It is paramagnetic and has fairly low electrical and thermal conductivity.[2]Commercial (99.2% pure) grades of titanium have ultimate tensile strength of about 434 MPa (63,000 psi), equal to that of common, low-grade steel alloys, but are 45% less dense. Titanium is 60% more dense than aluminium, but more than twice as strong[6] as the most commonly used 6061-T6 aluminium alloy. Certain titanium alloys (e.g., Beta C) achieve tensile strengths of over 1400 MPa (200000 psi).[10] However, titanium loses strength when heated above 430 °C (806 °F).[11]Titanium is fairly hard (although not as hard as some grades of heat-treated steel), non-magnetic and a poor conductor of heat and electricity. Machining requires precautions, as the material will soften and gall if sharp tools and proper cooling methods are not used. Like those made from steel, titanium structures have a fatigue limit which guarantees longevity in some applications.[9] Titanium alloys have lower specific stiffnesses than in many other structural materials such as aluminium alloys and carbon fiber.The metal is a dimorphic allotrope whose hexagonal alpha form changes into a body-centered cubic (lattice) β form at 882 °C (1,620 °F).[11] The specific heat of the alpha form increases dramatically as it is heated to this transition temperature but then falls and remains fairly constant for the β form regardless of temperature.[11] Similar to zirconium and hafnium, an additional omega phase exists, which is thermodynamically stable at high pressures, but is metastable at ambient pressures. This phase is usually hexagonal (ideal) or trigonal (distorted) and can be viewed as being due to a soft longitudinal acoustic phonon of the β phase causing collapse of (111) planes of atoms.[12]

[4eyedbuzzard]

For an extra pound you can get a Jansport Scout for $100 which has significantly larger capacity. 63 L vs 37 L Although the Scout is marketed as a kids pack, it is pleanty large enough for an adult (which is why I bought one).

At $300 and only 37L, this titanium pack is a very expensive day pack.With a 30 lb weight limit according to the advertised specs. Kind of pointless.

[Starchild]

It looks like it's based on a common external frame pack design including the attachment methods.

[Tuckahoe]

I dont get it and so I hope that someone will help me understand.

The benefit of an external framed pack is the larger capacity along with better load handling at higher weights, at a third ofnthe cost. Why build an external metal frame out of titanium and limit it to 30 pounds?

[4eyedbuzzard]

I dont get it and so I hope that someone will help me understand.

The benefit of an external framed pack is the larger capacity along with better load handling at higher weights, at a third ofnthe cost. Why build an external metal frame out of titanium and limit it to 30 pounds?Marketing? People will buy it because it's made from Unobtanium and therefore must be better/needed/status symbol etc?

[Starchild]

I dont get it and so I hope that someone will help me understand.

The benefit of an external framed pack is the larger capacity along with better load handling at higher weights, at a third ofnthe cost. Why build an external metal frame out of titanium and limit it to 30 pounds?

I think it's to pick up the market willing to buy anything titanium. Additionally my guess because the weight savings of titanium is really small compared to AL, they had to make the pack small so they can advertize a light weight pack.

[Odd Man Out]

To say that Ti is lighter than Al isn't quite telling the whole story. We often forget that Ti is actually about 1.7 times MORE dense than Al. But Ti is about twice as strong, so an object made from Ti can be made with half as much metal an an Al object and still be be as strong. This is why aluminum might be the lightest option for an object that doesn't have to be all that strong, such as a pot for boiling water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_%28engineering%29

[4eyedbuzzard]

To say that Ti is lighter than Al isn't quite telling the whole story. We often forget that Ti is actually about 1.7 times MORE dense than Al. But Ti is about twice as strong, so an object made from Ti can be made with half as much metal an an Al object and still be be as strong. This is why aluminum might be the lightest option for an object that doesn't have to be all that strong, such as a pot for boiling water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_%28engineering%29Or a pack frame supporting only 30 lbs. Ti definitely has some applications where it is a better choice than other materials, but honestly, it is over-hyped in everything from hiking gear to golf clubs, especially for the average user. Add in all the mis-information and pseudo science regarding Aluminum cooking pots and the marketing folks had a field day, even though Ti is an inferior material when it comes to heat transfer and suitability as cookware.

[Starchild]

To say that Ti is lighter than Al isn't quite telling the whole story. We often forget that Ti is actually about 1.7 times MORE dense than Al. But Ti is about twice as strong, so an object made from Ti can be made with half as much metal an an Al object and still be be as strong. This is why aluminum might be the lightest option for an object that doesn't have to be all that strong, such as a pot for boiling water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_%28engineering%29

There is another aspect about this that comes into play, durability. A lightweight AL pot, such as the kmart grease pot, is not expected to be strong, but actually semi-disposable (for it's use in backpacking), this allows it to be made lighter. A Ti pot better last because of the cost, so it is made more durable then the AL models, which means more material and increased weight. If they made a Ti pot to the same durability of the K-mart greaser there would be lots of unhappy campers when they find that it got crushed in transit.

[Coffee]

I guess I don't get it either ... what's the advantage of this pack compared to the ULA Circuit or Ohm, both of which are rated to carry as much weight and cost up to $100 less and have considerably more volume?

Or for that matter, how is this better than the zPacks ArcBlast, also an external frame rated to 30 pounds weighing a fraction as much and slightly cheaper?

[4eyedbuzzard]

I guess I don't get it either ... what's the advantage of this pack compared to the ULA Circuit or Ohm, both of which are rated to carry as much weight and cost up to $100 less and have considerably more volume?

Or for that matter, how is this better than the zPacks ArcBlast, also an external frame rated to 30 pounds weighing a fraction as much and slightly cheaper?Agree. FWIW, I have an old Camp Trails pack from the 70's with an aluminum frame that if I replaced the heavy nylon cordura bag, straps, and belt with more modern equivalent materials (dyneema, lightweight webbing, lightweight pad materials, etc) would probably come in at roughly the same overall weight - and carry 60 lbs.

[leaftye]

I dont get it and so I hope that someone will help me understand.

The benefit of an external framed pack is the larger capacity along with better load handling at higher weights, at a third ofnthe cost. Why build an external metal frame out of titanium and limit it to 30 pounds?

The weight limit is probably based on comfort. Look at the hip belt. It appears to have the same amount of padding as the ULA Catalyst. The Catalyst is rated at 40 pounds, although I've carried nearly twice as much.

[Franco]

Not often discussed but you can get pretty colours with Ti stuff :
25922
that has to be worth something.
A side benefit with cooking stuff is that Ti does not react with acidic foods nor has any taste.
Both of the above may not apply to backpacks.

[Toolshed]

Looks like a Higher end novelty items for guys in my age group who are nostalgic for the exframe packs we had back in the day.. My 2 paths cross here - DIY Ul gear and Corporate America. Willing to bet there are a lot of CA folks in the slow running Eurethra group who wouldn't mind plunking down a measly $300 for this. Me not so much. My old Ex Frame squeaks, slows me down and sets me off balance on tricky spots. I keep it in the closet for now..No need for another :)

[1234]

I still find the external frame pack to be a lot cooler in summer. My daughter thru hiked last year with a boy scout external frame and loved it. Coleman exponent. It was so heavy it weighted 3.9 lbs. she is looking hard at this pack! Me, I want TITANIUM stays for my internal!

[k2basecamp]

My 36 year old alpenlite aircraft aluminum external still has a much better design.

[magic_game03]

I dont get it and so I hope that someone will help me understand.

The benefit of an external framed pack is the larger capacity along with better load handling at higher weights, at a third ofnthe cost. Why build an external metal frame out of titanium and limit it to 30 pounds?

While I completely disagree that external frame packs pack a larger capacity you do point out both a truth and and an interesting point. The truth is they do handle heavy loads well, but nobody out here is really looking to pack big loads. Second, you make an interesting point- spending $300.00 for a 3 pound pack that's going to bust out at 30 pounds…REALLY?

Now my opinion to the OP… EXTERNAL FRAMES SUCK! Ever get stuck on a windy bald, ridge, gap or other place you will get blown around like a rag doll, sailing a square rigger 'round the Horne. Leave the external frames to the boy scouts.

[Hill Ape]

didn't dana designs play around with a throw back external frame shortly before they went defunct? i'm not sure ti is the material to use, but i'm still very open to an external frame concept. like so many consumer products, manufacturers tell you that you NEED the latest and greatest. i see this vargo pack as the first iteration in an experiment that may pay off in the long run. i'll stay tuned.

[leaftye]

Second, you make an interesting point- spending $300.00 for a 3 pound pack that's going to bust out at 30 pounds…REALLY?

That's a bad assumption given that I already said my $250 3 pound ULA pack has carried much more than its 40 pound rating without busting out. Would you want to carry 50+ pounds with the thin hip belts and shoulder straps found on both packs? I'd be okay with that on a weekend trip, but it wouldn't be acceptable on section hikes.



didn't dana designs play around with a throw back external frame shortly before they went defunct? i'm not sure ti is the material to use, but i'm still very open to an external frame concept. like so many consumer products, manufacturers tell you that you NEED the latest and greatest. i see this vargo pack as the first iteration in an experiment that may pay off in the long run. i'll stay tuned.

I recall a hauler pack, but maybe I'm thinking of Kelty.

I like the idea of using titanium. It should be tougher than aluminum. It's the rest I'm concerned about. I don't quite get how the bag attaches to the frame. I think it uses webbing loops, but a couple of those may be plastic clips. I'm hoping the pack bag and hip belt are easy enough to swap out. I'd probably use it with a foam pad, but at some point I think I'd want Zimmer (http://www.zimmerbuilt.com/) to build me a lighter pack bag, one that has a big mesh front pocket.

I do like that it only has a half bag because that encourages me to use cheap foam pads, although I bet I could strap a bear can there.

One potential problem with this pack may be the side pockets. Will they hold 1L Gatorade bottles? How about 1.8L Gatorade bottles?

I'm definitely not going to be an early adopter unless Vargo sends me a review sample. I figure I have a better chance of joining the Triple Crown club, and I have no plans to hike all three long trails.

[daddytwosticks]

Everybody knows titanium is so cool. Think SR-71! If they were able to throw some Cuben fiber and carbon-graphite into this design, all hikers would bow to your coolness if you carried one of these babies. :)

[4eyedbuzzard]

didn't dana designs play around with a throw back external frame shortly before they went defunct?There was the TerraFrame and also a Longbed and Shortbed version of externals for lashing and hauling. Yeah, all this right about the time they sold to K2 as I recall.